Is the prophecy still valid ?

[Valynie]

I have been reading OOTS for a long time but the last posts have prompted me to write about a topic I did not see addressed.

The prophecy was initially done by an Oracle of Tiamat and so is Tiamat's view of what will happen
My view is : It is valid for mortals event if no other gods intervene

But now with the Godsmoot and Durkula , other gods have muddied the waters
So Tiamat knew Durkon would end a vampire and so Durkon returning to the dwarven land posthumously should still be valid. It might not have been if Roy had killed him during the Godsmoot

The prophecies that have not happened yet might be moot
* An happy end for Elan
* Belkar's dying

[Roland Itiative]

I don't see any evidence whatsoever for the Oracle's prophecies to be rendered moot like that. If you're going to use "other gods' meddling" as a way to invalidate prophecies, then half of them wouldn't happen, as they all depended upon a cleric of Thor constantly having his god intervene in the Order's favour.

[Valynie]

There is a difference between a cleric using his free will to cast spells he asked for and a god manipulating events.

Otherwise what's the point of the votes in the godsmoot ?
Gods could divine the future and already know what will happen .

[Chronos]

If the Moots vote to spare the world, then the net result is the same as if they hadn't met at all. The prophecy is still on track.

If the Moots vote to end the world, then Belkar will indeed die very soon and not come back (along with everyone else in the world). The prophecy is fulfilled.

[Valynie]

The one about Belkar will be fulfilled
Not the one about Elan having an happy end :)

[Cazero]

The Chaotic Good afterlife might qualify as a good ending, for him at least.
Not so much about the whole world destruction and damnation of all dwarves.

[Jasdoif]

The Chaotic Good afterlife might qualify as a good ending, for him at least.
Not so much about the whole world destruction and damnation of all dwarves.Elan asked if the story had a happy ending (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0331.html), though.

[Roland Itiative]

There is a difference between a cleric using his free will to cast spells he asked for and a god manipulating events.

Otherwise what's the point of the votes in the godsmoot ?
Gods could divine the future and already know what will happen .

Well, that's the thing, you can't really talk about free will and prophecies in the same context without running into problems. If the result of the vote is set in stone, then so is the fact that the vote will happen, that Hel will try to win by doing a lot of shoddy things, and the Order will try to stop it (and likely succeed). The result is set, but so are the events that lead up to it. Maybe the gods could indeed divine everything that will happen, but what would be the point? That would just be like reading a script, they're still bound to the play.

But if the gods have true free will, but the mortals don't, then prophecies don't work at all. Thor could, at any moment, choose not to grant a spell to Durkon, and that would wreck the entire destiny of those characters from that point onwards. You just can't assume their fates only work if Thor decides to grant the spells. Hel could have decided not to use Durkula as a means to win the Godsmoot, and as such the posthumous return and the death and destruction he's supposed to bring to dwarven lands might never have happen. Loki could have decided to smite those puny mortals for funsies back in the Dungeon of Dorukan, and the comic wouldn't have lasted 100 strips.

The only way to reconcile beings that are bound by fate with beings that aren't and still have fate mean anything is if they can't ever interact with each other, on any situation whatsoever, and that isn't the case when divine magic and clerics who chat with their deities are as common as they are in this world.

[lenon3579]

The Prophecy is valid until something happens on-screen that states otherwise.

Yes, I doubt that the Giant would let such a plot-shaking thing like that happens without strong foreshadowing on the strips.

But, on the other hand, I can see him doing that free-will-shakes-fate (even if it is a free will of a god). So it's something that could happen in the future.

But there will be foreshadowings to that.

[Gift Jeraff]

Yes Durkon will bring balance to the fourth wall.

[Sir_Norbert]

Tiamat was surprised by the IFCC's deal with Vaarsuvius and its consequences.

It seems possible that she has foresight only when asked to look ahead about a specific question.

[Lvl 2 Expert]

Tiamat was surprised by the IFCC's deal with Vaarsuvius and its consequences.

It seems possible that she has foresight only when asked to look ahead about a specific question.

The oracle predicted Vaarsuvius would make that deal.

Okay, sure, it's weird that the gods don't seem to be able to predict important things like the outcome of the godmoot, or whether or not the world will actually end if they vote no now. But that's more a storytelling nessecity than proof against the oracle to me. Maybe the gods can't even tell the future, only grant the power to see it to mortals. And they have a rule about not talking to mortals you blessed with that power or something...

[Kish]

There is no reason to believe any of the Oracle's prophecies has been invalidated.

If you bring the name "Tiamat" or the word "gods" into a discussion of those prophecies, you're overthinking it.

I cannot prove this, but 100 gold says time will.

[theNater]

Tiamat was surprised by the IFCC's deal with Vaarsuvius and its consequences.

It seems possible that she has foresight only when asked to look ahead about a specific question.
It is possible(and, given that she does get surprised, I'd say probable) that Tiamat does not have foresight at all. In some myths, deities are able to grant mortals abilities they do not themselves possess; that may well be the case with Tiamat and the Oracle.

[multilis]

Clearly prophesy is a scam. If the gods could use prophesy to save themselves they would. If they only could grant powers to mortals, then they would hire those mortals, eg Oracle to save themselves from the Snarl. They would ask specific questions because they know Snarl is a danger to their survival.

So then how does prophesy work? By gods making predictions, then cheating/interfering to improve odds of the predictions. Eg IIFC made predictions on what V would do with super powers. IIFC was ready to interfere if required to keep to their master plan, but still some chance of interfering not being enough.

But all the interfering in world can't make things sure when an entity like Snarl is also interfering. And all bets are off after Miko became Snarl's chosen and He took Her to his better world. "You can't prove that it isn't true" - Ed Wood, Plan 9 From Outer Space.

[KorvinStarmast]

But all the interfering in world can't make things sure when an entity like Snarl is also interfering. And all bets are off after Miko became Snarl's chosen and He took Her to his better world.
From that, I infer that Miko will be sitting under a beach umbrella, sipping a fruity cocktail, awaiting the Order on the beach (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0900.html).
For her, of course, this is a kind of hell since it's not an exercise in self denial and ascetism. Couldn't happen to a nicer overbearing self-righteous bitch (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0250.html).

[hroþila]

Clearly prophesy is a scam. If the gods could use prophesy to save themselves they would. If they only could grant powers to mortals, then they would hire those mortals, eg Oracle to save themselves from the Snarl. They would ask specific questions because they know Snarl is a danger to their survival.

So then how does prophesy work? By gods making predictions, then cheating/interfering to improve odds of the predictions. Eg IIFC made predictions on what V would do with super powers. IIFC was ready to interfere if required to keep to their master plan, but still some chance of interfering not being enough.

But all the interfering in world can't make things sure when an entity like Snarl is also interfering. And all bets are off after Miko became Snarl's chosen and He took Her to his better world. "You can't prove that it isn't true" - Ed Wood, Plan 9 From Outer Space.
There's no indication that the gods' messing with Fate and prophecies would be any more successful than mortals doing the same, of which there are many examples both on the OotS world or in our own world's mythology. The gods are very much fallible and not all-powerful. The Oracle's Tiamat-derived powers are likely independent from Tiamat's personal ability to deduce what might happen in the future, and I doubt Tiamat can actually see the future the way her Oracle can, or that having her Oracle tell her would make that much of a difference to her.

It all boils down to one question: is Fate a superior power, independent from the gods? I believe it is. It typically is, to varying degrees, in real world mythologies that have fallible gods.

[Doug Lampert]

There's no indication that the gods' messing with Fate and prophecies would be any more successful than mortals doing the same, of which there are many examples both on the OotS world or in our own world's mythology. The gods are very much fallible and not all-powerful. The Oracle's Tiamat-derived powers are likely independent from Tiamat's personal ability to deduce what might happen in the future, and I doubt Tiamat can actually see the future the way her Oracle can, or that having her Oracle tell her would make that much of a difference to her.

It all boils down to one question: is Fate a superior power, independent from the gods? I believe it is. It typically is, to varying degrees, in real world mythologies that have fallible gods.
Yep, say the gods ask the oracle "Will the snarl get loose" and the oracle says "No" and the gods say "Good, we're safe" and so they stop paying attention and a few weeks later the Dark One's plot succeeds and the remaining gate is moved into their various planes and the snarl kills them all, he's not loose, the gate is still there, the prophesy is valid, the gods who depended on it are dead. That went well (not).

Or say they ask "Will I be destroyed by the Snarl" and the oracle says "Yes". Well, a fat lot of good knowing that does them! That went well (not). You can put time limits on that question and it can get even WORSE! Wonderful, you have a unique power to destroy your life and everything you've built. Why not avoid using it?! (And in fact, the gods do seem to be avoiding using it. Smart.)

I'm not clear on just what questions people think you should ask an infallible oracle about the future that will IMPROVE that future. Any reply you get is set in stone, and you don't get any control over what that reply is! All you can do is try to adopt your plans and actions to the now established reality (or futilely try to fight it and thus make things worse if anything, or make quite probably incorrect assumptions about what the established thing implies and thus make things even worse if anything).

"If Croesus attacks Persia a great empire will fall." That was useful (not).

We've seen Roy try to carefully parse his wording to the Oracle, and how well that worked. Yep, Girard's gate was definitely the one he and Soon needed to be worrying about prior to the destruction of Azure city.

The useful information people other than the Oracle himself have gotten from the oracle is limited to questions about the present (i.e. "Where is Xykon?"), and even for that getting the useful information involved dangling the oracle out a window of his tower.

And note that the Oracle himself doesn't try to fight or change the future he sees, he let Belkar kill him, he just arranged for both a raise and revenge, he'll let that angry druid rip him to shreds, he'll just have made preparations (again). For a threat of the magnitude of the snarl it's hard to see how you do the equivalent preparations, who casts raise dead on annihilated gods and has it work?

[Valynie]

I have to reply to some of the posts .

I believe there is a pact between gods not to intervene in the world because doing so could mean an escalation of divine interventions . Even for the godsmoot , gods must aggree on a decision .
Even with clerics , gods are limited on their interaction . I always rule that if a cleric ask for a spell , it is automatically granted .
Gods did let Miko act and then judged her as having gone over the limit while an intervention before could have had her keeping her paladinhood
Even spells like commune or divination are limited Divination must be cryptic and Commune is a Yes/No reply
The relation between Hel and Durkula does seems to violate this rule , I have no clear reason why even if suspicions

And I aggree that the only perfect god is Banjo :).

That being , there is a difference between Fate and prophecy .
Fate is indeed going to happen (Ragnarok) . IF the oracle acceded fate , then what we know will happen and this post was useless
For prophecy , I always thought that was the reply to the most likely course of event at the time of the asking . Even mortals can thwart prophecy but it must be incredibly hard to do so (a typical campaign :) )
When you have gods meddling in (which is quite rare) the odds of the prophecy being derailed are higher but it can still happen
To resume , fate make for a bleak campaign , prophecy for an exciting one

[KorvinStarmast]

I believe there is a pact between gods not to intervene in the world because doing so could mean an escalation of divine interventions . Even for the godsmoot , gods must aggree on a decision .
Even with clerics , gods are limited on their interaction . I always rule that if a cleric ask for a spell , it is automatically granted .
Gods did let Miko act and then judged her as having gone over the limit while an intervention before could have had her keeping her paladinhood
Even spells like commune or divination are limited Divination must be cryptic and Commune is a Yes/No reply
The relation between Hel and Durkula does seems to violate this rule , I have no clear reason why even if suspicions

And I aggree that the only perfect god is Banjo :).
You were doing great right up until that point.

That being , there is a difference between Fate and prophecy .
Fate is indeed going to happen (Ragnarok) . IF the oracle acceded fate, then what we know will happen and this post was useless.
For prophecy , I always thought that was the reply to the most likely course of event at the time of the asking . Even mortals can thwart prophecy but it must be incredibly hard to do so (a typical campaign :) )
When you have gods meddling in (which is quite rare) the odds of the prophecy being derailed are higher but it can still happen
To resume , fate make for a bleak campaign, prophecy for an exciting one I tend to use prophesy as an incomplete forecast. That's how a lot of the prophesies of old are illustrated: some of it is true, but it doesn't tell the whole story. (See Oedipus for the classic example of that, or the prophesy about how the Witch King would or would not die).

FWIW, one of the things that Robert Jordan got right in the early Wheel of Time stories was the incompleteness of prophesies and how that complicated the lives of people who paid attention to them, who tried to make them come true, and who tried to thwart them.

[Kish]

The relationship between Hel and the High Priest of Hel does not violate the "no direct divine intervention" rule. The High Priest of Hel talks to Hel in his prayers, as Durkon talked to Thor in his prayers. He gets direct orders back, which Durkon has not in the timeline of the comic, but it's not Hel's fault that Thor doesn't talk to his priests more; as far as "bending or breaking the rules for the worshiper's benefit," Thor's done that multiple times and Hel hasn't done it at all. Were both Durkons not so awfully lawful, the High Priest of Hel might decide at any time not to obey Hel's orders.

[Killer Angel]

I trust the Oracle, until proven otherwise. :smallwink:

[KorvinStarmast]

I trust the Oracle, until proven otherwise. :smallwink:
Trusting that creature whose valley has a "you forget everything" mind wipe spell on it isn't something I'd be inclined to do.

Trusting a creature whose deity is Tiamat (or whose powers are derived from Tiamat) strikes me as an error in judgment.

[Porthos]

Look, it's very simple here. Just because one knows the future doesn't necessarily mean one can change the future. It's just another variation of Stable Time Loops with information coming from the future instead of people.

It's that easy. Anything else is over thinking it.


Trusting that creature whose valley has a "you forget everything" mind wipe spell on it isn't something I'd be inclined to do.

Trusting a creature whose deity is Tiamat (or whose powers are derived from Tiamat) strikes me as an error in judgment.

The Oracle also has access to future books and can get answers that way. :smallwink:

[ti'esar]

Yeah, the thing about all theories calling the Oracle's trustworthiness into question is that the Giant has been quite explicit in book commentary that he's an authoritative source about the plot. The fact that he worships Tiamat or that he's a cladist jerk is just personality, it doesn't have anything to do with how his prophecies are meant to be regarded.

[KorvinStarmast]

The Oracle also has access to future books and can get answers that way. :smallwink: There is that.

[multilis]

Yeah, the thing about all theories calling the Oracle's trustworthiness into question is that the Giant has been quite explicit in book commentary that he's an authoritative source about the plot. The fact that he worships Tiamat or that he's a cladist jerk is just personality, it doesn't have anything to do with how his prophecies are meant to be regarded.
And on other comic goblinscomic.com, the dwarf was going to die with lots of screaming when he met the goblins again, "in a great battle"... the magic wall told him so and echoed the previous prophesy. Goblins met, battle over and the dwarf lives.

It isn't the fact that he worships Tiamat, it's the fact that Tiamat does not send his high priest to talk to Oracle before the Godsmoot vote. Clearly god prophesy is not certainty. If some Giant says otherwise, then obviously he is working for the gods. And the Snarl is mightier than the Gods! So if Snarl says no, the prophesy is worthless.

The gods are liars, they claimed Snarl was chaos but look at that beautiful world. Does that look like raging chaos to you?

Learn the truth. Join the Holey Brotherhood. That brave new world can also be yours.

Here is a true prophesy you can trust... in the final days there will be lots of hate and XP'ing as the gods bicker and fight over "souls". But then Our Snarl will come and replace them all with something better. A world where greatness will be measured in peace and love rather than killing to gain XP.

[goodpeople25]

And on other comic goblinscomic.com, the dwarf was going to die with lots of screaming when he met the goblins again, "in a great battle"... the magic wall told him so and echoed the previous prophesy. Goblins met, battle over and the dwarf lives.

It isn't the fact that he worships Tiamat, it's the fact that Tiamat does not use Oracle to save or help Tiamat, to help gods decide which way to vote. Clearly god prophesy is not certainty. If some Giant says otherwise, then obviously he is working for the gods. And the Snarl is mightier than the Gods! So if Snarl says no, the prophesy is worthless.

The gods are liars, they claimed Snarl was chaos but look at that beautiful world. Does that look like raging chaos to you?

Learn the truth. Join the Holey Brotherhood. That brave new world can also be yours.

Here is a true prophesy you can trust... in the final days there will be lots of hate and XP'ing as the gods bicker and fight over "souls". But then Our Snarl will come and replace them all with something better. A world where greatness will be measured in peace and love rather than killing to gain XP.
No thanks, your recuitment speech has some holes i can't overlook.

Though if you mentioned a snack bar with bagels and donuts I might have reconsidered.

[multilis]

No thanks, your recuitment speech has some holes i can't overlook.

Though if you mentioned a snack bar with bagels and donuts I might have reconsidered.
Bagels and donuts are Holey! So yes they are available at all Holey snack Holes!

[KorvinStarmast]

It isn't the fact that he worships Tiamat, it's the fact that Tiamat does not send his high priest to talk to Oracle before the Godsmoot vote.
Tiamat is usually presented as a she in D&D.


But then Our Snarl will come and replace them all with something better. A world where greatness will be measured in peace and love rather than killing to gain XP. Uh, that's hell for most of the OoTS protagonists, and a world where Belkar would certainly not want to live.

[Mightymosy]

Maybe Tiamat is the only goddess who can see into the future, and/or her oracle, and she or he did, and she used that knowledge in her vote!
A pity we don't know how she voted, only the pantheon she is in.

[multilis]

Tiamat is usually presented as a she in D&D.

Uh, that's hell for most of the OoTS protagonists, and a world where Belkar would certainly not want to live.
For even thy old lusting for death and destruction is strong, the Love of Snarl is stronger!

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0890.html
(frame with Belkar's happy ending dream)

Snarl can change the puny predictions/prophesy of mere gods the same way as he can change the "shoeless sexy god of war's" heart.

[RVallant]

Elan asked if the story had a happy ending (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0331.html), though.

A happy ending in heaven is still a happy ending. :smallbiggrin:

[multilis]

A happy ending in heaven is still a happy ending. :smallbiggrin:
People often wish for their happiest ending of all: "End to war world wide, no more sickness, disease, starving people, fear, etc."

Life is pain. If world is undone, and Snarl gets rid of all gods then disappears himself then no more pain, happy ending.

http://www.goblinscomic.org/02222011-2/

All a matter of who's perspective.