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elliott20
2007-06-12, 09:57 AM
The "what would they be" thread mentioned hamlet somewhere within the thread and in the "why level" thread, somebody linked to The Alexandrian's page on power scales.

This got me thinking about the power scale of most classic literature characters we read about. Perhaps, the epic struggle doesn't need to be between lvl 20 characters, but lvl 6's are more than sufficient.

So what would Conan be? Would he in fact be nothing more than a level 7 character with levels of barbarian, fighter, rogue, and some ranger thrown in there? Would Achilles really just be a level 10 fighter with a ton of hitpoints?

It also brings up the questions of power vs. usage. Does an important character within your campaign necessitate to said character having at least 9 levels in something?

thoughts?

JellyPooga
2007-06-12, 10:23 AM
Achilles would have, like, DR (Infinite)/heel shot or something...that definitely sounds like something Epic to me...

elliott20
2007-06-12, 10:36 AM
or perhaps he just had some way of getting a DR of 5/- or some such, and most arrow attacks from the level 1 mooks usually do not do enough damage to even cause enough to damage to register on him.

Tengu
2007-06-12, 10:41 AM
10/heel at least, a DR of 5 means that an arrow shot from a longbow will still hurt you 37,5% of the time.

Skyserpent
2007-06-12, 10:42 AM
Leonytas, level 20 badass... no really, more like a 10 Fighter or so... with all the Phalanx feats and some pretty gnarly Dex to make it without armor...

Rumda
2007-06-12, 10:47 AM
10/heel at least, a DR of 5 means that an arrow shot from a longbow will still hurt you 37,5% of the time.

for effective immunity to weapon damage it would have to be at least DR 18/heel to withstand a great axe from a raging 18 str barbarian with heavy fortification built in to prevent crits and sneak attack, but then theres power attack....

Tengu
2007-06-12, 10:48 AM
I think that it's a common agreement that Leonidas, when translated to DND, is a Warblade using mostly Iron Heart.


for effective immunity to weapon damage it would have to be at least DR 18/heel to withstand a great axe from a raging 18 str barbarian with heavy fortification built in to prevent crits and sneak attack, but then theres power attack....

That's true. Classic literature does not translate well to DND. Well, actually, nothing apart from DND novels translates well to DND.

Beleriphon
2007-06-12, 10:53 AM
Leonytas, level 20 badass... no really, more like a 10 Fighter or so... with all the Phalanx feats and some pretty gnarly Dex to make it without armor...

No, Leonidas would probably be a 5th level fight, maybe 6th level depending on what feats you want to give him.

elliott20
2007-06-12, 10:54 AM
to me, I think that the whole optimizing a character thing becomes a lot more relevant at lower levels.

Tengu
2007-06-12, 10:59 AM
No, Leonidas would probably be a 5th level fight, maybe 6th level depending on what feats you want to give him.

The "most people in the world are level 1" approach, I see. I personally prefer the opposite - level 1 is for squires, novices, apprentice wizards etc, level 2 means little experience, if you're over 18 (in a typical fantasy/medieval setting, might be more or less in others) then you're probably level 3.

elliott20
2007-06-12, 11:18 AM
well, from my understanding, gaining XP is much easier in 3.5 than in 2E, which means that if you really want to, the "level 1 = apprentice, level 3 = adult" approach can work.

however, this means you have to really work to alter some of the assumptions put down in the DMG.

SpiderBrigade
2007-06-12, 12:28 PM
See, the problem with this is that most people will assume that literary (especially mythological) characters are forced to get the abilities they have the same way a PC would get them. For instance, yes, Achilles has some kind of crazy damage reduction.

This is because he has a special template, the "Styx-dipped" template, which provides Damage Reduction: Infinity/Heel Wounds.

Of course Achilles is a bit special in the first place, being half-Nereid as he is. So it becomes really almost impossible to assign him a level at all. Is he so hardcore because he's level 18? Or does he just have huge bonuses to strength and dexterity from his templates? Hard to say.

Matthew
2007-06-12, 12:30 PM
That's right. The DMG assumes that most NPC Classed NPCs won't go beyond Third Level over the course of their lifetime, with those in the most dangerous environments being a couple of levels higher. Spread that out over a lifetime of seventy years and you end up with one level every fifteen or twenty years.

Achilles, of course, is no ordinary man, like most of the Heroes he is descended from the Olympians. In his case his mother Thetis is the daughter of Poseidon.

The Heel thing has nothing to do with level and everything to do with his mother's fear that he would be killed in battle.

JellyPooga
2007-06-12, 12:36 PM
The Heel thing has nothing to do with level and everything to do with his mother's fear that he would be killed in battle.

But translated into d&d terms, being what he is would probably give him an epic ECL, regardless of his actual class levels. In fact, given how he dies (single poisoned arrow to the heel), he probably doesn't have all that many class levels (and therefore: he has low HP/Fort save)...most of his fighting ability probably came from the fact that he didn't have to worry about being hit by his opponents.

Nota Biene
2007-06-12, 12:36 PM
Had to chime in, as I'm a classics nut. Achilles being dipped in the Styx to become immune to weapons actually isn't in Homer, and it is simply part of the folkloric tradition. My professor points out that the Illiad has a lot more meaning if you disregard the "Styx-dipped" template, since his actions in the war demonstrate actuall courage instead of merely a knowledge of his own invincibility. That said, "Styx-dipped" would be an awesome template. Regardless, Achilles has a lot of hit points, many feats, and probably powerful martial maneuvers. If anyone deserves 15+ character levels, it's him.

Lapak
2007-06-12, 12:56 PM
I think that it's a common agreement that Leonidas, when translated to DND, is a Warblade using mostly Iron Heart.
Not White Raven? Much of his strength comes from his warriors, and much of their strength flows from his leadership.

SpiderBrigade
2007-06-12, 01:00 PM
That's a really good point about the ECL, JellyPooga. Of course, the characters from the Iliad (with one "L") are all pretty bad poster boys for the "most people are low level" argument anyway, since they tend to be half-divine, or at least heavily god-favored in some way. These guys are legendary heroes, and could be in their teens levelwise.

Someone like Leonidas, though, we're getting into an era where we have actual histories, and the characters are no longer scions of gods. The leaders of the time (including, contrary to some popular memes, several capable Athenian commanders) should probably be compared to the celebrated generals of our own time (Lee, Patton, etc) rather than the legends of the Iliad. These guys are capable, smart, good fighters - but not superhuman. Level 5 for the best, in that model of things.

Matthew
2007-06-12, 01:17 PM
But translated into d&d terms, being what he is would probably give him an epic ECL, regardless of his actual class levels. In fact, given how he dies (single poisoned arrow to the heel), he probably doesn't have all that many class levels (and therefore: he has low HP/Fort save)...most of his fighting ability probably came from the fact that he didn't have to worry about being hit by his opponents.
True enough, Class Level is what I had meant. As I said, these guys are half Divine, their ECL is potentially through the roof in D&D terms, though perhaps they are using some sort of variant rule...

Nota Biene is quite right, though, Achilles and his Heel are part of the folklore tradition, as is the Trojan Horse, if I recall correctly (though I think it is mentioned in Virgil). A lot of how you choose to stat out these mythological Heroes is going to depend on what mythology you accept, which parts you reject and how you interpret the texts.

It's worth mentioning that (A)D&D assumed such Heroes were twenty levels or more, not the greatest guide, but a reasonable precedent for assuming Epic ECL in a default game.

Tengu
2007-06-12, 01:29 PM
Someone like Leonidas, though, we're getting into an era where we have actual histories, and the characters are no longer scions of gods. The leaders of the time (including, contrary to some popular memes, several capable Athenian commanders) should probably be compared to the celebrated generals of our own time (Lee, Patton, etc) rather than the legends of the Iliad. These guys are capable, smart, good fighters - but not superhuman. Level 5 for the best, in that model of things.

I think we're discussing Leonidas from 300 here, though, since this incarnation of him was mentioned first time in the thread. And what he does in the movie/comic is borderline superhuman.

elliott20
2007-06-12, 01:31 PM
but then again, the things that a level 10 human fighter can do ALSO borderlines on super human. (though, not as superhuman as say, a wizard. but that's a whole different thread)

Tengu
2007-06-12, 01:34 PM
Around level 10 is the best level for most fictional characters that were powerful, but not overly powerful. I didn't say that they have to built on level 20, or epic.

Piccamo
2007-06-12, 01:43 PM
Jack Burton
Level 5 Fighter
Level 2 Rogue

He's that awesome that he took the dead level in fighter.
Also, his bonus feats were all used on Toughness.

SpikeFightwicky
2007-06-12, 02:09 PM
I think we're discussing Leonidas from 300 here, though, since this incarnation of him was mentioned first time in the thread. And what he does in the movie/comic is borderline superhuman.

You're a fighter that fights without getting an armor bonus? This is MADNESS!!

~THIS IS SPARTA!!!!!

Tengu
2007-06-12, 02:11 PM
You're a fighter that fights without getting an armor bonus? This is MADNESS!!

~THIS IS SPARTA!!!!!

Heh.

Though probably his helmet and cloak are so awesome that they count at full plate.

Lemur
2007-06-12, 02:22 PM
Overestimating the power of characters from fiction is pretty common, yes. I remember that article, and while I wouldn't say that Aragorn is anywhere near level 20, I think 5 may be a little low for him. I'd probably peg him at around level 8, while the rest of the fellowship is somewhere under that (excluding Gandalf, who's in a league of his own).

In the case of Achilles, I'd say that he's at the point where normal soldiers can't realisitically hit his armor class. He's not immune to weapon damage, but he's hard to hit, and the ones that do don't really deal much damage relative to his hitpoints.

I can think of one character who deserves to be 20th level, or possibly epic, and that's Sun Wukong. He can fly on clouds, beats up the gods for fun, and can literally pulverize a human into the texture of hamburger meat with a single hit from his staff.

Jayabalard
2007-06-12, 02:32 PM
So what would Conan be? Would he in fact be nothing more than a level 7 character with levels of barbarian, fighter, rogue, and some ranger thrown in there? Would Achilles really just be a level 10 fighter with a ton of hitpoints?The two AD&D conan modules had Conan somewhere around level 14, levels split between fighter with a few levels of thief (barbarian didn't show up in AD&D 1ed except in unearthed arcana); the module was for characters between 10 and 14, and it had him as well as some of his companions statted out. Conan Unchained (CB1) (http://www.amazon.com/Conan-Unchained-Advanced-Dungeons-Dragons/dp/0880381523), Against Darkness (CB2) (http://www.amazon.com/Conan-Against-Darkness-Advanced-Dungeons/dp/0880381531), and Red Sonja Unconquered (RS1) (http://www.amazon.com/Unconquered-Advanced-Dungeons-Dragons-Module/dp/0880383240).

They also added some rules for luck points, and had some magic items that didn't really fit very well into the D&D mold of magic items (Conan's sword iirc)

SpiderBrigade
2007-06-12, 02:39 PM
Overestimating the power of characters from fiction is pretty common, yes. I remember that article, and while I wouldn't say that Aragorn is anywhere near level 20, I think 5 may be a little low for him. I'd probably peg him at around level 8, while the rest of the fellowship is somewhere under that (excluding Gandalf, who's in a league of his own).Yeah, Gandalf is some kind of outsider at the very least, and possibly has some divine ranks as well. He just doesn't use them very often.

I can think of one character who deserves to be 20th level, or possibly epic, and that's Sun Wukong. He can fly on clouds, beats up the gods for fun, and can literally pulverize a human into the texture of hamburger meat with a single hit from his staff.Sun Wukong aka Monkey aka Son Goku definitely gets to be really high level. But then, he's not a person, but rather a trickster spirit.

elliott20
2007-06-12, 02:45 PM
yeah the problem with Sun Wukong is kind of the same as the "progency of the Gods". He got his powers not because he trained at it or something, but because he just GOT them. (Whether through eating those stupid peaches that make you uber or what have you)

Glyphic
2007-06-12, 04:28 PM
All this love for Achilles and none for Hector. Come on!


The Greeks attack and drive the Trojans back. Hector must now go out to lead a counter-attack. His wife, Andromache, porting their son, Astyanax, intercepts him at the gate, pleading with him not to go out for her sake as well as his son's. Hector knows that Troy and the house of Priam are doomed to fall and that their gloomy fate will be to die or go into slavery in a foreign land. With understanding, compassion, and tenderness he explains that he cannot personally refuse to fight, and comforts her with the idea that no one can take him until it is his time to go.

He also went toe to toe with Achilles- but Achilles has Athena behind him on his side. One man verus a half god with a gods help? Not to mention Achilles' mature response to Hectors plea to be returned to Priam for a rightful burial (Greeks and Trojans were pretty good about this. No burial or a soiled corpse equals no entrance to the Elysium Fields-effective robbing that person of all their good deeds of glory or honor.)


Achilles then slit Hector's heels, and took the girdle that Ajax had given him and passed it through the slits of the heels. He then fastened the girdle to his chariot and drove his fallen enemy through the dust to the Danaan camp. For the next few days Achilles mistreated the body


Me? Hector is falling into a good and devout, LG Fighter Maybe level 7-10. specifically feeling fear when he has to fight Achilles rules out some for of Greek Pseudo Paladin.

Achilles falls into some barbarian/fighter mix. He -definately- has a rage ability. Give him some weird template, and make him about the same level. ECL 13-15

Matthew
2007-06-12, 05:00 PM
Don't forget Hector is descended from Zeus [Hector, son of Priam, son of Laomedon, son of Ilus, son of Tros, son of Erichthonius, son of Dardanus, son of Zeus]. He should probably have a Template of some kind.

Lemur
2007-06-12, 05:04 PM
yeah the problem with Sun Wukong is kind of the same as the "progency of the Gods". He got his powers not because he trained at it or something, but because he just GOT them. (Whether through eating those stupid peaches that make you uber or what have you)

Monkey started out as a freakishly strong and intelligent monkey, but he actually did gain most of his powers and magic tricks by training and refining himself under the tutilage of a wise master. He didn't get to eat the peaches of immortality and Taoface's immortality elixer until he bullied his way into heaven with his own power.

And even by that point, it's not clear that he really needed to do so, since he supposedly gained immortality long before then as part of his training. It's more that he becomes a god or refined spirit, rather than being of divine origin.

I think it's fair to say that Sun Wukong/Goku/Monkey represents a high level adventurer. To me, Journey to the West represents a high level campaign- the characters and their foes are all ridiculously powerful and the enemies often require obscene abilities to present a challange to the pilgrims.

SpikeFightwicky
2007-06-12, 05:55 PM
It sounds like alot of these characters should have a low divine rank (probably Divine Rank 0). that should give them enough of an 'edge' to remain mostly normal, but have some 'superhuman' bonuses. Achiles and Hector are likely candidates.

Matthew
2007-06-12, 06:00 PM
Heh, Julius Caesar claimed descent from Aphrodite through Aenas (if I recall correctly). I get the feeling there need to be some divine descent rules. Anybody know if there are any already?

elliott20
2007-06-12, 06:14 PM
Hmm... Lemur, I can see what you mean when it comes to Sun Wukong being a high level adventurer if you take his training time with his master as a form of leveling up...

If we look at it that way, I would say that Sun Wukong may very well be the perfect example of a Gish. Perhaps some kind of sorc/warblade mixture of some sort.

Kresalak
2007-06-12, 09:16 PM
Heh, Julius Caesar claimed descent from Aphrodite through Aenas (if I recall correctly). I get the feeling there need to be some divine descent rules. Anybody know if there are any already?

It's called "being a hero." D&D characters are really so freaking powerful that you almost have to claim divine descent for games beyond level 10 to make any sense.

Jannex
2007-06-12, 09:17 PM
All this love for Achilles and none for Hector. Come on!



He also went toe to toe with Achilles- but Achilles has Athena behind him on his side. One man verus a half god with a gods help? Not to mention Achilles' mature response to Hectors plea to be returned to Priam for a rightful burial (Greeks and Trojans were pretty good about this. No burial or a soiled corpse equals no entrance to the Elysium Fields-effective robbing that person of all their good deeds of glory or honor.)




Me? Hector is falling into a good and devout, LG Fighter Maybe level 7-10. specifically feeling fear when he has to fight Achilles rules out some for of Greek Pseudo Paladin.

Achilles falls into some barbarian/fighter mix. He -definately- has a rage ability. Give him some weird template, and make him about the same level. ECL 13-15

Thank you for bringing the love for Hector. He deserves it. Achilles, meanwhile, can go take a long walk off a short pier back into the Styx...

*ahem* Moving on...

I feel like a "Divine Heritage" template should include some sort of luck bonuses, to represent the patronage of the ancestor-deity. And I'm pretty sure it adds to Charisma.

Manave_E_Sulanul
2007-06-12, 09:41 PM
What? No Aeneas, Ajax, or Odysseus! Come on folks, lets get some characters that are not the stars of the modern movies! ;)

And I would love good old Perseus or Theseus! (A lot of eus's) ;)

DSCrankshaw
2007-06-12, 09:57 PM
Don't forget Hector is descended from Zeus [Hector, son of Priam, son of Laomedon, son of Ilus, son of Tros, son of Erichthonius, son of Dardanus, son of Zeus]. He should probably have a Template of some kind.
Heh. If you go that route, everyone in Greece and the surrounding environs has a template. It's probably the reason Zeus had so many mortal lovers in the myths: everyone wanted to claim descent from him.

Glyphic
2007-06-12, 10:15 PM
Even then, I'll admit I made a mistake in my grabbing facts: Hector intended to drag around Patroclus' body to dishonor it. Suppose it's only, ya know, that whole hubris thing working out...

Merlin the Tuna
2007-06-12, 10:41 PM
You're a fighter that fights without getting an armor bonus? This is MADNESS!!

~THIS IS SPARTA!!!!!This is Unearthed Arcana! (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/adventuring/defenseBonus.htm)

Matthew
2007-06-13, 06:41 AM
It's called "being a hero." D&D characters are really so freaking powerful that you almost have to claim divine descent for games beyond level 10 to make any sense.

I think you are either misunderstanding the point or deliberately clouding the issue under discussion. High Level D&D Characters go beyond the realms of the probable, that's a given, but we're not discussing what can be achieved through earning Character Levels. We're discussing the possible effects of divine descent.
It is possible to claim that Heroes were retroactively associated with Deities on achieving high levels, but that sounds like quite another discussion.


Heh. If you go that route, everyone in Greece and the surrounding environs has a template. It's probably the reason Zeus had so many mortal lovers in the myths: everyone wanted to claim descent from him.

Well, it's quite interesting how it works. The Illiad is very big on the importance of bloodlines, pretty much all the Heroes are descended from some divine source or another and the closer they are to that source the more heroic (or successful) they tend to be. Some bloodlines are even refreshed, as in the case of Aenas, who is descended from the same source as Hector and his brothers [Aeneas, son of Anchises, son of Capys, son of Assaracus, son of Tros, son of Erichthonius, son of Dardanus, son of Zeus], but whose divine bloodline has been refreshed by Aphrodite (Aenas' mother).

Noticably, Aenas is the only survivor of that bloodline, as all of Zeus' other descendents through Anchises appear to have been wiped out during the war. Death without heirs is very often the fate of these heroes. It's possible that Zeus' bloodline could have ended up in the general population (after all, Paris and Hector had dozens of princely brothers); however, I rather suspect that is not the intention of the mythology, but a modern extrapolation.

Of course, then we end up with two lines of thought, the logical and the mythological. On the one hand it seems probable that for any descendents of Zeus to exist as late as Caesar, there must have been a fair spread of the bloodline into the population. However, the mythological interpretation isn't as literal as this, has less to do with the biological and more to do with the spiritual element of 'bloodlines'. The idea of a bloodline 'running true' suggests that not all descendents benefit from biological association, but that there is some other element at play in the elevation of one descendent over another.

Realistically speaking, it's all a load of nonesense from start to finish, but from a mythological point of view I think a reasonable case can be made to have the divine descendent template not automatically apply to all progeny, either by means of 'expired bloodlines' or some other qualifier that limits the logical effects of the supposed promiscuity of Deities and Heroes (I say supposed, because mythology is often contradictory and ancient authorities often deny one tradition in favour of another. The promiscuity of Zeus was itself often denied by some Pagan Philosophers, in favour of a more altruistic view of the Olympians - a view not without some substance).

factotum
2007-06-13, 07:58 AM
Hmmm...wonder if you could have a reasonable stab at Dr. Jekyll/Mr. Hyde using a lycanthropy template? :smallsmile:

SpikeFightwicky
2007-06-13, 10:41 AM
Umm, you don't need a template. Divine rank 0 pretty much fits into what you're going for:



Each deity has a divine rank. A deity’s divine rank determines how much power the entity has.
Rank 0: Creatures of this rank are sometimes called quasi-deities or hero deities. Creatures that have a mortal and a deity as parents also fall into this category. These entities cannot grant spells, but are immortal and usually have one or more ability scores that are far above the norm for their species. They may have some worshipers. Ordinary mortals do not have a divine rank of 0. They lack a divine rank altogether.

Having a divine rank of 0 gives some sweet bonuses, but nothing too over the top.

tsuyoshikentsu
2007-06-13, 05:14 PM
The One Ring
Intelligent Ring of Invisibility

STR --
DEX --
CON --
INT 13
WIS 10
CHA 13

Communicates: Empathy
Lesser Powers (2): 10 ranks Sense Motive, 10 ranks Bluff
Purpose: Defend servants and interests of Sauron
Purpose Power: Wielder gets +2 Luck to attacks, saves, checks
Ego: 8 (Plus whatever bonus you think invisibility is worth on an armor)


I think this ends up working out nicely. Probably the thing that I like most is the low Ego score: notice that in the canon, most people aren't affected by it immediately, yet even Gandalf admits that it'd affect him eventually. This tells us that it's more likely for someone to fail a save rolling a 1 than it is for them to actually roll lower than the Ego score. Well, except for Isildur, but he was a Fighter and it doesn't look like Wisdom was his high stat anyway.

Matthew
2007-06-13, 05:21 PM
Umm, you don't need a template. Divine rank 0 pretty much fits into what you're going for:



Having a divine rank of 0 gives some sweet bonuses, but nothing too over the top.
That's good, but not really enough, since we're not just talking one generation, but multiple generations. I dunno about the immortality quality either, but it's possible...

Dhavaer
2007-06-13, 05:26 PM
Hmmm...wonder if you could have a reasonable stab at Dr. Jekyll/Mr. Hyde using a lycanthropy template? :smallsmile:

d20 Past has a Hyde template. The best way to model it in D&D would be a werebarbarian.

Kurald Galain
2007-06-13, 05:56 PM
This got me thinking about the power scale of most classic literature characters we read about. Does an important character within your campaign necessitate to said character having at least 9 levels in something?
Well, that depends. Personally I don't buy the idea that "level 5 is peak human ability and everything above that is superheroic", particularly considering the high amount of level 6+ characters in most campaign worlds, and that in many fantasy books otherwise-ordinary characters can pull off feats that would be implausible at best for a level-5 D&D char.

Interestingly I'm just reading the book Ilium (by Dan Simmons) which is positively epic about how earthshatteringly powerful these Ancient Greeks are. In D&D-speak, I'd put the Greek warleaders in the 12-16 range and Herakles at level 20. Divine heritage does dilute rather quickly - being the grandchild of a god is far less important in Greek mythology. Oh and IIRC Mussolini claimed descent from Julius Ceasar, I'm pretty sure he does not get to be divine.

For Tolkien, I'd say that the characters would level up during the quest. Aragorn may well start at 7ish and be level 12 by the end of the books. He feels more like a 2nd edition character, though. Middle Earth is notoriously less "flashy" than 3rd ed.

Jekyll & Hyde fit rather well in Mage: the Ascension :)

Pug and Tomas, anyone? IIRC those books were based on a D&D campaign...


The One Ring
Intelligent Ring of Invisibility

You are way understating the corruption effects. Gandalf doesn't even dare touch the thing, and think of poor Boromir. Also, it isn't invisibility per se but being put into some shadow reflection of the real world, and the ring is extremely cursed in that it is very addictive, causes one to waste away, using it even briefly attracts Sauron's attention, and the ring will somehow doom you (Isildur) or fall off your finger at a critical moment (Gollum).

Matthew
2007-06-13, 06:12 PM
Oh and IIRC Mussolini claimed descent from Julius Ceasar, I'm pretty sure he does not get to be divine.

Hah, hah. Maybe so, but was he Deified after his death? Caesar was.

Isn't Dan Simmons that guy who likes to write a load of old sensationalist nonesense?

Kurald Galain
2007-06-13, 06:28 PM
Isn't Dan Simmons that guy who likes to write a load of old sensationalist nonesense?

No, he's the guy that writes convoluted high-tech science fiction stories with many literary allusions. Hyperion and Endymion, specifically. In terms of storytelling, he's one of the best science fiction authors alive.

Matthew
2007-06-13, 06:39 PM
Ah, I'm thinking of Dan Brown. I heard he'd started work on some sort of Ancient Greek project [Edit] (though I can't find anything to substantiate that, must have imagined it).

Conjurer
2007-06-13, 06:49 PM
The One Ring
Intelligent Ring of Invisibility

STR --
DEX --
CON --
INT 13
WIS 10
CHA 13

Communicates: Empathy
Lesser Powers (2): 10 ranks Sense Motive, 10 ranks Bluff
Purpose: Defend servants and interests of Sauron
Purpose Power: Wielder gets +2 Luck to attacks, saves, checks
Ego: 8 (Plus whatever bonus you think invisibility is worth on an armor)


I think this ends up working out nicely. Probably the thing that I like most is the low Ego score: notice that in the canon, most people aren't affected by it immediately, yet even Gandalf admits that it'd affect him eventually. This tells us that it's more likely for someone to fail a save rolling a 1 than it is for them to actually roll lower than the Ego score. Well, except for Isildur, but he was a Fighter and it doesn't look like Wisdom was his high stat anyway.

Shouldn't the one also have powers relating to the lesser rings? Some manner of ESP and/or Dominate effect related to the wielder of the lesser rings

Tellah
2007-06-13, 06:56 PM
Ah, I'm thinking of Dan Brown. I heard he'd started work on some sort of Ancient Greek project [Edit] (though I can't find anything to substantiate that, must have imagined it).

Matthew, if that's true, then you and I are taking up arms to end his tyranny once and for all. I especially hate that he started The Da Vinci Code with a block of unsubstantiated nonsense with the word "FACT" in front of it.

Not "classic" literature per se, but I've spent many a geeky afternoon statting up the X-Men. Wilder is by far the best class for makin' muties, IMHO.

Matthew
2007-06-13, 08:14 PM
Heh, heh. Yes, hopefully I am just misremembering an interview I saw with him once on breakfast television. Worst kind of lying self promoter (i.e. a successful one). Still, it's a double edged sword; by talking such garbage and portraying it as fact, he forced more reliable academics to publically refute him.

elliott20
2007-06-14, 08:52 AM
I personally find it disingenuous that Dan Brown would resort to this sort of tactic to promote his book, but... whatever...

honestly though? guy needs to learn how to pace his story better.

The problem with trying to stat out the One Ring is that we never got to see the ring in it's full power so anything we come up with wouold only be a shadow of what it is fully capable of.

factotum
2007-06-14, 09:03 AM
You are way understating the corruption effects. Gandalf doesn't even dare touch the thing, and think of poor Boromir. Also, it isn't invisibility per se but being put into some shadow reflection of the real world, and the ring is extremely cursed in that it is very addictive, causes one to waste away, using it even briefly attracts Sauron's attention, and the ring will somehow doom you (Isildur) or fall off your finger at a critical moment (Gollum).

It depends whether we're talking about the ring as it appears in the books, or the one in the film. The one in the books was considerably less efficient at corrupting people than the film version--in the book, Gandalf actually picks it up with his bare hands from the fireplace after extracting it from the fire using the tongs. (It makes the whole "It's quite cool" thing rather more believable than it is in the film, where he's waving it around using the tongs!). As far as corrupting people who just LOOK at it is concerned (Boromir) it can only do so when the person doing the looking is prone to corruption anyway--the book version of Faramir, for example, says that if he saw the Ring lying by the roadside he would just leave it there.

Now, if you actually WEAR the Ring in the books is when it can really start working on your mind...

The film version was made more powerful in many ways, which I think is just the film writers not quite understanding the Ring.

[EDIT] Speaking of stats for the One Ring, ISTR that in the Middle Earth Role-Playing system it gave stats for Sauron. Without the ring he was something like a level 400 sorcerer, which was still pretty darned powerful. WITH the Ring, the stats block just said something like, "What do you need stats for? Just assume he can do anything you like!"

Dizlag
2007-06-14, 09:33 AM
I remember seeing a fan site for leveling up Conan The Barbarian (http://www.enworld.org/Inzeladun/conan.htm) using 3rd edition rules. I think this was done with 3.0 rules, but it's kewl anyways!

On there as well, is a link to Conan the Legendary Dreadnaught (http://www.enworld.org/Inzeladun/conan/Conan40.htm). Pretty frickin' kewl!

Enjoy!

Dizlag

Accolon
2007-06-15, 12:12 AM
What about Beowulf? I think the first "British" (and I use the term very, very loosely) hero should be considered as a classic. He would most obviously have levels of barbarian and fighter, but he could also be skilled as a ranger. He has superhuman strength, I mean he rips off grendel's arm and beats him with it. He then goes on to slay grendel's mere. As an old man, he's still strong enough to fight and kill a dragon. That's one tough monkey. I would place Beowulf, the son of a King, and a king himself, as 14th level character, maybe 6 Barb/6 Fighter/2 Ranger with a str score in the mid 20s.

It does my heart good to see that people acknowledge LotR as a classic like I do. I think Aragorn is truly around 14th level as well, a ranger/paladin, (rules say no, but what the hell) as let's not forget that he heals Faramir and Eowyn. Aragorn is truly a lawful good character in the vein of the mythical king Arthur: the once and future king, so to speak. As for the rest of the Fellowship: Samwise is a ranger, probably between levels 3-6, Frodo is a fighter, level 2-3, Legolas is an 8-12 level fighter with levels in Order of the Bow Initiate, Gimli is an 8-12 level fighter with maybe some levels in Dwarven Defender, Merry and Pippen, 5-6 level rogues or bards, or both. Boromir is my favorite to play with: fallen paladin who redeems himself: 8/9th fighter. Gandalf is an outsider beyond character levels, at least to me. But if I had too, he would be an archmage at the very least, with at least one or two levels of fighter to go along with his arcane abilities. Don't forget he wields Glamdring throughout the tale, and matches strategy with the Witch King, so he has to have some military/martial knowledge.

I have a hard time with the Greek heroes because most of them have divine blood. A 1st level fighter who has the bloodline of a god or goddess with DR and SR and god like attribute defies class levels to me.

Turcano
2007-06-15, 01:48 AM
On a somewhat different tack, I would stat out Väinämöinen from the Kalevala as a bard 4/druid 4/rogue 2/fochlucan lyrist >1, as he is able to pull off a suggestion/sink combo. There are probably some sort of divine rank as well.

Matthew
2007-06-17, 12:50 PM
Heh, this seems a popular passtime this week...

Dizlag: Those versions of Conan seem plenty powerful. How do they compare to the Conan D20 versions, do you know?

Beowulf. That's tough one. I'm going to arbitrarily say Level 10, but I think it would be interesting to build him from scratch. Definitely a Fighter (though some might argue for Barbarian or something, I won't).


Beowulf (Human Fighter 1) MS 30(20, AB 1(5), AC 17(19), HP 12,
Attributes: Strength 18, Dexterity 14, Constitution 14, Intelligence 14, Wisdom 14, Charisma 14,
Feats: Improved Unarmed Strike, Improved Grappling, Power Attack,
Skills: Climb 4(8), Jump 4(8), Swim 4(8), Ride 4(6), [4 left - Knowledge, Diplomacy? Something like that],
Equipment: Javelin(s), Heavy Shield, Mail Armour, Masterwork Long Sword, Dagger,