The Lore-warden of the Unseen Hand

[Triskavanski]

So looking a a few things since Weapon Master's guide came out. There's always been a pretty big weakness for a melee fighter specialized in delivering maneuvers, and that its really hard to do it at a range.

So I was thinking of something along the lines of using Telekinesis, Afforded to us by the new magic item mastery feats. By going Lorewarden, we get a nice bonus to maneuvers. In particular one that I think to focus on is grapple (And by extension Dirty trick).

The Idea of course is that when we start getting up to that level that I could use Telekineses to grapple, hold and pin my target down as I take my move actions to move up to them. There is also the possibility of using chokehold to disable most spell casters.

The problem I see is though is that the stuff doesn't seem to be written right. It take standard action to keep the concentration of a spell/spell-like ability as far as I know.. but it would take a standard action to also do the maneuvers. Is this right?

[Psyren]

The problem I see is though is that the stuff doesn't seem to be written right. It take standard action to keep the concentration of a spell/spell-like ability as far as I know.. but it would take a standard action to also do the maneuvers. Is this right?

Triggering or maintaining these maneuvers is part of the action you use to concentrate on the telekinesis spell. Basically, you "resolve the maneuvers as normal," but triggering them is part of the "once per round" freebie that the spell/SLA lets you do while concentrating on it.

[Serafina]

This should work rather well and can come online as early as level 7.

Specifically, at that level you'd have two daily uses of Telekinesis, allowing you to make a combat maneuver each round for 6 rounds, at a range of 640 feet. It'd use your Constitution modifier, then add +2 to that from Lore Warden and whatever you get from feats.

To get it online that early, you'd need to take a one-level dip into any class that grants a good Fortitude-save. Then you have 6 Fighter levels, and take Advanced Weapon Training to get Abundant Tactics.
You'd also need to find an item that has a 4th-level Transmutation-spell as it's construction prerequisites. This may or may not be challenging in terms of affordability, I have not checked yet. Sadly, Gloves of Dueling would not count.

At level 10 you'd have six uses per day, easily enough to use it in every battle.

[Triskavanski]

Why would gloves of dueling not count?


Ah I see.. Wizards use it as a 3rd level spell. But its a 4th level for cleric/shaman/oracle. So I guess the question is do you use the earliest it comes online or the one comes later? Is it dependent on who makes it?

Probably the best 1 level dip I'd say would be the Brawler. You'd then get a small pool of flexible combat feats and you could use your full level to qualify for fighter feats. You lose no BAB as well, and get Improved Unarmed Strike to start off getting improved grapple.


Triggering or maintaining these maneuvers is part of the action you use to concentrate on the telekinesis spell. Basically, you "resolve the maneuvers as normal," but triggering them is part of the "once per round" freebie that the spell/SLA lets you do while concentrating on it.

So you couldn't do something nasty and use the grapple with TK to do a dirty grapple?

[Psyren]

So you couldn't do something nasty and use the grapple with TK to do a dirty grapple?

What's a "dirty grapple?" Do you mean doing two TK maneuvers in the same round? If so, no.

[(Un)Inspired]

I too would like to know what a "dirty grapple" is... for research... for a friend...

[Serafina]

That refers to feats from the Dirty Tactics Toolbox.

Dirty Grapple specifically allows you to "perform a dirty trick and a grapple maneuver together against a single target as a full-round action when initiating or maintaining a grapple".
There is a feat that also allows that for Disarms, combining them with Dirty Tricks.

And if I see this correctly, it'd not work.
You need a Standard action to maintain that spell. That maintaining of the spell then causes you to allow you to make one of the combat maneuvers listed under telekinesis.
You could not instead concentrate as a full-round action. Even if you could, that'd still only give you one of the combat maneuvers listed, not the special actions that those feats allow.

You COULD stack effects that trigger on a successful bull rush, disarm, grapple or trip. Just nothing that needs a standard or full-round action to activate.
A List of the things you could activate:
Bull Rush:

Spiked Destroyer: (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/spiked-destroyer-combat) Get an attack with your armor spikes. Somehow, from 400 feet away. Because the feat doesn't actually say anything about needing to be in range, and you already pushed your enemy away.
Merciless Rush: (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/merciless-rush-combat) Same deal, you could deal damage equal to your strenght modifier.
Squash Flat: (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/squash-flat-combat) Same deal, you'd get a free trip from bull rushing. Except this one makes slightly more sense.
Greater Bull Rush: pretty obviously, the enemy would still provoke the AoO triggered by this.
Disarm:

Directed Disarm: (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/directed-disarm-combat) Throw your enemies weapon 15 feet at another enemy, perfectly logical for telekinesis.
Ki Diversity - Bone Crusher: Deal damage as with an unarmed strike.

Grapple:

Greater Grapple: You'd still get to make two grapple checks per round to apply two effects - but you do not get the ability to maintain it with a move action, you still have to use the standard action to maintain the spell. However, you could grapple an opponent normally, then activate and use telekinesis to grapple someone else.
Chokehold (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/chokehold-combat): Still works obviously.
Sleeper Hold: (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/sleeper-hold-combat) So does this.
Stunning Pin: (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/stunning-pin-combat) Yes, this works. You just need to grab Stunning Fist to get it.
Jawbreaker: (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/jawbreaker-combat) Yes, you can chain into this using Stunning Pin.
Bonebreaker: (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/bonebreaker-combat) And improve it with this.
Neckbreaker: (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/neckbreaker-combat) And finally this.
Strangler: (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/strangler-combat) This too works (if you have sneak attack from somewhere)
Kraken Style: (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/kraken-style-combat-style) This too works, as do it's subsequent feats.

Trip:

Sadly, Ki Throw only works on unarmed combat maneuvers. Else this would result in hillarity such as teleporting an enemy from 400+ feet away into an adjacent square.
Riptide Attack (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/riptide-attack-combat) would work.
Greater Tip causes the opponent to provoke as normal, though of course you can't take advantage of it from range.

[Serafina]

If you want to be a bit cheesy and use Spiked Destroyer (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/spiked-destroyer-combat), you can actually then swap that attack out for any Quick Combat Maneuver.

So, the possible sequence would be like this:
Standard Action to cast/maintain Telekinesis. Make a Bull Rush attempt. If it succeeds, you get a free Trip (Squash Flat) (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/squash-flat-combat) and deal damage equal to your Strength Modifier if you succeed by 5+. (Merciless Rush (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/merciless-rush-combat)).

You also get a single melee attack with your armor spikes. You replace that with either Dirty Trick (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/quick-dirty-trick-combat), Drag (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/quick-drag-combat), Reposition (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/quick-reposition-combat), Steal (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/quick-steal-combat) or another Bull Rush (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/quick-bull-rush-combat).

Ideally, you first choose another Bull Rush, which then succeeds and leads into another quick combat maneuver. You can't infinitely chain Quick Bull Rush since it's "one of your melee attacks" per turn.

You also get to trip the enemy if you exceed the enemy by 5 or more - and another one if you use Quick Bull Rush. Which in turn leads into a Drag Maneuver (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/riptide-attack-combat) and (if you nabbed a ki pool from somewhere) hitting the enemy with an unarmed strike via Bone Crusher (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/ki-diversity-combat-faction) (though only once, since it requires as swift action).


So in summary, this would lead to the following:
You get to Bull Rush, Drag and Trip your enemy twice. Each Bull Rush, Drag and Trip provokes AoOs from nearby allies. You also get to deal your strength modifier in damage twice, and hit them for unarmed strike damage once. Oh, and apply a Dirty Trick or Steal maneuver to them too.
This consumes a standard action, a swift action, twelve stamina points and one ki point.
It also needs twelve feats to set up, as well as combat stamina, as well as a ki pool via (variant) multiclass).
And most importantly, it relies on your GM allowing you to use Spiked Destroyer at range, despite that not really making sense, and then to trade out that melee attack for a combat maneuver.

[Triskavanski]

What about the feat Bushwack (http://www.archivesofnethys.com/FeatDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Bushwhack). Would this not be able to trigger of the TK power?

Then there is also Stag Submission (http://www.archivesofnethys.com/FeatDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Stag%20Submission)

I think that would be pretty cool to hide from the shadows, then blamo! You use TK power to slam a wizard down to the ground and start choke holding him.


And getting the required magic item, what would one use? If the gloves don't qualify because wizards cast it at 3, even if clerics cast it at 4, we'd need to get another level 4 transmutation one.

With the suggestion to start off at with one High fort save class, and then go into fighter, by level 7/8ish, we should be able to get both the TK effect and Abundant tactics. With the Gloves of Dueling that would give us 4/day uses. (1 for TK feat, 1 for weapon training, 2 for gloves)

Obviously we should use Close/Monk as our special WT area. Monk would give us the largest variety of different weapons to use And Bab as acrobatics, but close would give us the ability to have our BAB become our Stealth

EDIT:

Magic Item List so far

Improves Grapple
Brawling Armor (http://www.archivesofnethys.com/MagicArmorDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Brawling)
Arm Bands of the Brawler (http://www.archivesofnethys.com/MagicWondrousDisplay.aspx?FinalName=Armbands%20of% 20the%20Brawler)
Beast Wrestlers Gauntlets (http://www.archivesofnethys.com/MagicWondrousDisplay.aspx?FinalName=Beast%20Wrestl er%27s%20Gauntlets)
Gauntlet of Twisting Vines (http://www.archivesofnethys.com/MagicWondrousDisplay.aspx?FinalName=Gauntlets%20of %20Twisting%20Vines)
Violet Throny Ioun Stone (http://www.archivesofnethys.com/MagicWondrousDisplay.aspx?FinalName=Ioun%20Stone%2 0Violet%20Thorny)



Allows Access to TK feat and help with Grappling

Form-Fixing Gauntlets (http://www.archivesofnethys.com/MagicWondrousDisplay.aspx?FinalName=Form-Fixing%20Gauntlets) These ones are pretty cool if you'r fighting shapeshifters.
Tentacle Cloak (http://www.archivesofnethys.com/MagicWondrousDisplay.aspx?FinalName=Tentacle%20Clo ak) While it won't help too much, you do get a nice minute of tentacles and improved grappling ability.



Honorable Mention
Grappler's Mask (http://www.archivesofnethys.com/MagicWondrousDisplay.aspx?FinalName=Grappler%27s%2 0Mask) For All your Luchador needs, sadly doesn't help too much with anything.



Here's a question.. Does Unarmed Strike have the grappling quality?

[Triskavanski]

Looking at Brawler archetypes for that first level dip to accelerate the gaining of TK feat

Strangler - Ugh.. This archtype looks like it should be a good one for our purposes. Its specifically based around the idea of grappling and choking the life out of your foes with your barehands... except, it loses Improved Unarmed Strike. REALLY?! The saving grace though is that the class does give you martial flexibility still.

I Think I'd stay with the Base Brawler so we can get the Improved grapple at level 1.

[Psyren]

Brawlers get plenty of feats though, even before you consider MF, so getting IUS back is a snap. They simply removed that ability so your punches don't scale with this archetype, since it's not designed to be punching. (You could probably just use a garotte anyway.)

[Triskavanski]

Well, after that first level, the LWotUH should be going fighter for the next 19 levels. So yeah, you can get the feats back, but I don't know if thats worth trading for 1d6 points of sneak attack damage.

And this would be the weirdest point of being able to do sneak attack to a guy, 400 feet away, using melee at a range.

[Psyren]

I was more speaking to Stranglers in general than your specific build; did you post it anywhere or are you still in the idea phase?

[Triskavanski]

At the moment I'm still in design phase. Need to figure out all the things that could trigger off the TK powers, and make sure they're still useful even when you're not using TK powers.

But the Rough I have at the moment

Human
Trait - Pragmatic Activator
Trait - Cunning Wordplay or Precise Treatment?

1: Brawler - Improved Grapple, Weapon Focus (Unarmed Strike)
2: Fighter - Combat Stamina
3: Fighter - Barroom Brawler, Improved Trip
4: Fighter - Nothing
5: Fighter - Bush-wack, Chokehold
6: Fighter - Weapon Training 1 - Monk Weapons?
7: Fighter - Telekinetic Master, Abundant Tactics


The reason we're gonna put Barroom Brawler in there is because with Combat stamina, we could use our Martial Flexibility faster by spending 5 points of stamina. A little combo, but a combo never the less that might help.