Bladesinger-Can it be made to work?

[Mongobear]

Had a post a few days ago here http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?472758-Making-a-Binder-What-do discussing making a new character Im gonna make for a Forgotten Realms campaign. I have since changed my mind, and no longer wish to make a Binder, as I dont feel comfortable with it.

What I wanna do, is make a more "fluffy" character, than one with a lot of "crunch". A 3 Musketeers instead of a Butterfinger, if you will. My rethinking led me to the Bladesinger in Complete Warrior, which ranks pretty low on the "good PrC" table, in fact I think its one of the worst for that style of character, so I am wondering if it is possible to only dip the class a little bit, or avoid it and still capture the feel of a Bladesinger.

What I am planning right now, is a Grey Elf Duskblade 13/Abjurant Champion 5/Eldritch Knight 2 progression, and use Arcane Strike to boost my DPS once I get to full attack channeling.

Is there any build thatd be better suited for this? I dont want a 7 class dip build, as the group isnt the most highly optimized, so please keep the tips in the basic realm.

I am starting at level 7, with standard WBL and a 40 point buy, so do with that what you will.

[Troacctid]

Well the problem with Bladesinger is it just doesn't do anything. You lose five levels of casting, pay a three-feat tax, and all you get is Sudden Quicken and a minor bonus to AC. Of course, since you lost all that casting, you're giving up on the ability to actually quicken spells the normal way with the higher-level slots, as well as the ability to gain an even better AC bonus from Greater Luminous Armor, so...basically, it's just bad. There isn't really a build that uses Bladesinger where a different PrC wouldn't be better.

You could always take a look at the Iron Chef in the Playground round that used Bladesinger, though. Builds start here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?274122-Iron-Chef-Optimization-Challenge-In-the-Playground-XLIII/page6&p=14909185#post14909185), summary is here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=14909573#post14909573).

[Deadline]

There are some great builds in the Bladesinger round (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?274122-Iron-Chef-Optimization-Challenge-In-the-Playground-XLIII&p=14909185&viewfull=1#post14909185) of Iron Chef. You may be able to find inspiration there.

[LTwerewolf]

It might help if you explain what you're trying to capture from bladesinger (other than a severe case of bad). Also be aware fluff and crunch are not mutually exclusive.

[Mongobear]

Im basically aiming for an Elven Melee Gish that would play a lot like a Bladesinger would. I could just go Duskblade and call myself a Bladesinger, but Im looking if there is anything legitimately decent compared to straight Duskblade, or going with the usual Abjurant Champion route.

I will definitely dig through the Iron Chef builds and see whats up there, but chances are those are way too optimized for my group.

TL:DR I want to be an Arcane Gish that "feels" like the Bladesinger, but isnt 7 levels of nothing.



EDIT: Im even considering Swiftblade, the DM wants to see it before he ok's it. But its still in the same general realm of class-type.

[LTwerewolf]

If pathfinder is allowed the arcane duelist (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/bard/archetypes/paizo---bard-archetypes/arcane-duelist) archetype seems to fit the bill. It basically mushes bard and magus (similar to duskblade) together. You can go 1-20 in a single class and it requires absolutely no cheese, so it's friendly towards most tables, and if you start to outshine people you can fall back on buffing to let other people shine.

[Mongobear]

If pathfinder is allowed the arcane duelist (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/bard/archetypes/paizo---bard-archetypes/arcane-duelist) archetype seems to fit the bill. It basically mushes bard and magus (similar to duskblade) together. You can go 1-20 in a single class and it requires absolutely no cheese, so it's friendly towards most tables, and if you start to outshine people you can fall back on buffing to let other people shine.

Sadly no PF stuff is allowed, this group is strict with staying with single systems and not making crossovers

[Troacctid]

If you want something that plays like a Bladesinger without being one, I would recommend either Duskblade or Jade Phoenix Mage. Or, if you're willing to use a bastard sword, Raumathari Battlemage is basically Bladesinger-but-not-sucky.

[LTwerewolf]

Bard/crusader/JPM is what I'd recommend then. Not the raw power if you went in with wizard, but keeps the feel of the bard while giving you a lot of options both in melee and out. You can dip in a level of sublime chord before you take JPM and get better casting if you'd like.

[Mongobear]

So, the DM has ok'd Swiftblade. Is that worth going for to get the build/theme im going for?

[Troacctid]

Yeah, Swiftblade is great.

[nedz]

Yeah, Swiftblade is great.

Yep, seconding this.

Looking at your original build: Are you aware that Duskblade and Abjurant Champion don't work together very well ?

[Grod_The_Giant]

Also, Eldrich Knight gets you bipkis compared to more Duskblade levels.

[DarkSoul]

If you use the Races of Faerun version and make it at least half caster instead of its own list it gets better. 7/10 casting would be better but full caster might be too much considering the difference in Song of Celerity.

[Mongobear]

If you use the Races of Faerun version and make it at least half caster instead of its own list it gets better. 7/10 casting would be better but full caster might be too much considering the difference in Song of Celerity.

Wow... the RoF version is so much better than the CW one. Id seriously take that as is over the CW one every time. Its own spell list kinda sucks, but its atleast decent for the class build im going for.

Now the real question, would going into RoF Bladesinger from Duskblade be the best route? Or would trying to convince my DM to swap them to a 5/10 or 7/10 caster and going into it from Bard/Sorc/Wizard be the best option?

[Snowbluff]

So, the DM has ok'd Swiftblade. Is that worth going for to get the build/theme im going for?

Super good. Add a level of Spelldancer and/or Persistent Spell so you can Persist a Swift Haste (a 7th level slot so YMMW on needing spell dancer) for all day benefits.

I think the build is like Wizard6/Swiftblade9/Spelldancer1/AbjurantChampion4.

[DarkSoul]

Wow... the RoF version is so much better than the CW one. Id seriously take that as is over the CW one every time. Its own spell list kinda sucks, but its atleast decent for the class build im going for.

Now the real question, would going into RoF Bladesinger from Duskblade be the best route? Or would trying to convince my DM to swap them to a 5/10 or 7/10 caster and going into it from Bard/Sorc/Wizard be the best option?
It depends on how you want to play the character. There are a lot of defensive spells on the bladesinger spell list that you don't get if you get in via duskblade. Even 5/10 casting on Bladesinger with a 2 level Wizard dip to enter gets you to 4th level spells in 10 levels, which is the same as what Bladesinger gets now, but with the flexibility of the wizard spell list. 7/10 casting gets you to 5th level spells, matching the Duskblade with more spell choice.

Duskblade can't get into Bladesinger alone until level 9, because of the feats needed. Fighter 4/Wizard 2 gets in with the level 6 feat open. There might be other ways to do it as well, but 5 feats, BAB +5 and spellcasting ability is pretty rough. Song of Celerity is really good though. If your DM thinks +caster levels is too good with it, point out that it requires a full attack action to come online.

[Mongobear]

It depends on how you want to play the character. There are a lot of defensive spells on the bladesinger spell list that you don't get if you get in via duskblade. Even 5/10 casting on Bladesinger with a 2 level Wizard dip to enter gets you to 4th level spells in 10 levels, which is the same as what Bladesinger gets now, but with the flexibility of the wizard spell list. 7/10 casting gets you to 5th level spells, matching the Duskblade with more spell choice.

Duskblade can't get into Bladesinger alone until level 9, because of the feats needed. Fighter 4/Wizard 2 gets in with the level 6 feat open. There might be other ways to do it as well, but 5 feats, BAB +5 and spellcasting ability is pretty rough.


Well, were using Traits/Flaws from UA in this, and I can have up to two, so a Feat tax isnt too bad. Right now, I am debating a Fighter 4/Duskblade 1 entry (Using RoF version) and just forgetting about Duskblade spells unless im desperate. Alternatively, I was thinking Hexblade with the developer's homebrew fixes.

I might have to suck it up and just go for a Wizard dip so im not 5/6 MAD in the end.

EDIT: Also, Im not entirely sure how I wanna play this character yet, originally I wanted to make a Dex/Finesse based Gish that uses Arcane Strike for his main damage source, then I remembered Duskblade was a thing. Im really not sure which route would end up better and more accurately close to a true Bladesinger.

[Troacctid]

Well, were using Traits/Flaws from UA in this, and I can have up to two, so a Feat tax isnt too bad. Right now, I am debating a Fighter 4/Duskblade 1 entry (Using RoF version) and just forgetting about Duskblade spells unless im desperate. Alternatively, I was thinking Hexblade with the developer's homebrew fixes.

Hexblade is crap even with the fix, so definitely stay away. Fighter 2/Duskblade 3 would be a lot more efficient than Fighter 4/Duskblade 1 since it hits the logical breakpoints, avoiding the dead level at Fighter 3 and grabbing Arcane Channeling at Duskblade 3.

[Mongobear]

Hexblade is crap even with the fix, so definitely stay away. Fighter 2/Duskblade 3 would be a lot more efficient than Fighter 4/Duskblade 1 since it hits the logical breakpoints, avoiding the dead level at Fighter 3 and grabbing Arcane Channeling at Duskblade 3.

Fair point about DB 3/Ftr 2, dunno what I was thinking with Ftr4... probably automatically jumped Weapon Specialization or something. Alternatively, I was also looking at delaying the entry 1 level, and go for some Int redundancy by going Duskblade 3/Swashbuckler 3/Bladesinger 1 to start, for Finesse, Skill Points, and Insightful Strike, but I dont know how this would stack up overall compared to just Fighter levels.

[Troacctid]

Swashbuckler is a trap. Int to damage isn't worth losing three caster levels. The math just doesn't add up in its favor. Not unless you're doing some sort of template-stacking or something to get cheesy-high Int, anyway, and I assume you're not doing that.

[Mongobear]

Its mostly just for redundancy, and to pile more SAD onto my Int, as is Im gonna use it for spellcasting, and AC, so I figured taking the Swashbuckler dip would atleast not be terrible. And I am not losing spellcasting levels for it, the RoF Bladesinger has its own Spell progression/Caster level gains, not the generic "+1 to previous class" like the one in CW.

[Deadline]

Depending on how heavily you want to be a caster, Suel Archanamach might be an acceptable option for you.

[DarkSoul]

Remember, Song of Celerity is different in RoF. Don't discount your other classes' spell slots. If nothing else, use them to load up on True Strikes.

[Pluto!]

Monk 2/Swashbuckler 3/Assassin 5/Bladesinger 10 with Carmendine Monk isn't too embarrassing, despite having levels in 4 awful to mediocre classes.

That said, I feel silly trying to make Bladesinger work when Kensai Magus is a class.

[Blackhawk748]

I once made a Bard/Warblade/Warchanter/Bladesinger that worked out fairly well. It wasnt amazing but i enjoyed it.

[Mongobear]

Monk 2/Swashbuckler 3/Assassin 5/Bladesinger 10 with Carmendine Monk isn't too embarrassing, despite having levels in 4 awful to mediocre classes.

That said, I feel silly trying to make Bladesinger work when Kensai Magus is a class.

Again, Im aware of PF and the Magus, but we are playing just 3.5, with no backwards compatible from PF.