Could a Demon lord be redeemed?

[martixy]

Is this something anyone would deem even remotely feasible?

I mean we are talking about a 5000-year old manifestation of pure chaos and evil...

It's not like your run of the mill stupid ogre or a drow or something. Demons are considered the embodiment of their their alignment after all. And the demon lords are presumably the purest distillation of that essence.

But I still wanna try. I just need some help, some idea that would make it not seem as outlandish.
(Basically the setup I'm planning is granting the PCs an object, or a way for them to interact with the demon lord by necessity - without any immediate corporeal threat, but with as much delicate influencing and subtle convincing and indoctrication as my DMing skills would allow).
The part with the McGuffin is history. The only variable is whether I let the PCs interact with the Demon Lord's soul (or was it "essence" since outsides don't have souls).

Perhaps, instead of aiming for a complete redemption, the demon could be convinced to simply experience the world from a different viewpoint for a few years - perhaps as a bargain for letting the demon experience anything at all, instead of being locked inside a featureless prison, in complete isolation of the world.
Or maybe a longer time scale, which would allow more time for influencing in both directions... cuz it's rather unfeasible for an immortal creature, used to weaving century-long plots to change its mind in a few years.
Which demon would be the most suitable? Perhaps the more intelligent ones would be more likely to respond to reason? Like Graz'zt. Or the less violent ones/with greater ties to the Material Plane like Malcanthet?

...or something.

Help me out here!

[Mystral]

Is this something anyone would deem even remotely feasible?

I mean we are talking about a 5000-year old manifestation of pure chaos and evil...

It's not like your run of the mill stupid ogre or a drow or something. Demons are considered the embodiment of their their alignment after all. And the demon lords are presumably the purest distillation of that essence.

But I still wanna try. I just need some help, some idea that would make it not seem as outlandish.
(Basically the setup I'm planning is granting the PCs an object, or a way for them to interact with the demon lord by necessity - without any immediate corporeal threat, but with as much delicate influencing and subtle convincing and indoctrication as my DMing skills would allow).
The part with the McGuffin is history. The only variable is whether I let the PCs interact with the Demon Lord's soul (or was it "essence" since outsides don't have souls).

Perhaps, instead of aiming for a complete redemption, the demon could be convinced to simply experience the world from a different viewpoint for a few years - perhaps as a bargain for letting the demon experience anything at all, instead of being locked inside a featureless prison, in complete isolation of the world.
Or maybe a longer time scale, which would allow more time for influencing in both directions... cuz it's rather unfeasible for an immortal creature, used to weaving century-long plots to change its mind in a few years.
Which demon would be the most suitable? Perhaps the more intelligent ones would be more likely to respond to reason? Like Graz'zt. Or the less violent ones/with greater ties to the Material Plane like Malcanthet?

...or something.

Help me out here!

First question would be if any demon can be redeemed in the world you are playing in. On the one hand, there are examples of demons turning good in the lore and on the WOTC HP, on the other hands, some books state that they are iredeemable.

[Troacctid]

It's kind of like asking if Lord Voldemort could be redeemed. Yes, theoretically, if he truly felt remorse, it might technically be possible, but he would never do that. It would just be out of character for him. He's functionally irredeemable because if he were the type of person to seek redemption, he wouldn't be Lord Voldemort in the first place.

[Kraken]

If you can get through SR and a will save, the spell sanctify the wicked from Book of Exalted Deeds can turn literally any evil creature to good. The catch is that it's a level 9 sanctified spell that requires the sacrifice of an entire character level on the part of the caster to cast.

[martixy]

First question would be if any demon can be redeemed in the world you are playing in. On the one hand, there are examples of demons turning good in the lore and on the WOTC HP, on the other hands, some books state that they are iredeemable.

Well, currently it's a world of relative prosperity, as far as your typical high fantasy, high-magic worlds go(though I quite deliberately designed it to be very far removed from a tippyverse). There is a shadow war being waged on many hidden battlefields over a few MacGuffins, one of which is ours, which the PCs will soon start seeing inklings of, but the apocalypse isn't planned till the endgame, which is quite a long ways off... well into the epic levels.
But with an upcoming opportunity for the mid-level PC's to acquire said demon MacGuffin, I wanna explore my options. And knowing my players they'll at least attempt it. And I also find the idea intriguing.

P.S. I don't wanna deus-ex-machina the whole thing... like say, via a spell.
I mean the idea is the same... trapped within a MacGuffin, undergoing a gradual transformation. But I'm looking for the roleplay opportunity here, not any mechanical considerations like for example simply converting a powerful creature to an ally or whatever.

[Kraken]

BoED does have rules for redeeming evil non-outsiders toward the front of the book. You could simply expand them.

[Necroticplague]

Theoretically, yes. In practicality, unlike. The kind of beings who are capable of redemption typically don't rise much in the demonic hierarchy, much less rise to Demon Lord status. It might be a bit more plausible if they spend significantly more time on a softer plane, where they can show such weakness without being killed for it.

[tiercel]

The cheesy way to go about this involves a DM silly enough to allow the cursed item helm of opposite alignment in the game. Incapacitate foe and apply helm repeatedly until your lucky victim rolls a natural 1 on the saving throw.

Of course, these kind of shenanigans can cut both ways:


BBEG: Join me, and together we will RULE the WORLD as father and son!!
Hero: No!! NOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!1one1! NEVERRR--
BBEG: <plops helm of opposite alignment onto hero's thick skull>
Hero: Yeah, alright.

[tadkins]

What if the demon lord started off as a good person who was just screwed over by circumstance? Possessed, cursed, blasted with pure evil that transformed him, or the like. The entire time while this being is doing his evil shenanigans, there remains just a slight hint of the person he was trapped inside. A chance series of events involving the PCs leads up to a climatic moment where they are able to break through and destroy the demon lord, leaving just a fading, but redeemed, soul behind to move on to his final fate.

Just an idea I had the other day and one I might consider using for my own campaign one day. xD

[hifidelity2]

If you want it to then yes

Its up to the PC’s to come up with a way

Maybe the DL has been thinking for the past 100 years on all the bad he has done and its …well not really any fun anymore
Maybe after a massive battle X thousand years ago he was helped by a stranger who didn’t know who / what he was and re has been dwelling on it since

[ShurikVch]

Book of Vile Darkness

Mindrape
Enchantment [Evil, Mind-Affecting]
Level: Sor/Wiz 9
...
Saving Throw:Will negates
Spell Resistance: Yes
...
The caster can erase or add memories as she sees fit and alter emotions, opinions, and even alignment.
...Underlined important part

[Jowgen]

I've looked into redemption mechanics quite a bit. Got a handbook on industrializing it in my sig if you're interested.

From a rules perspective, there are 3 takes on what constitutes being irredeemable. The Complete Divine take on redemption has "always evil" creatures irredeemable, BoVD has "creatures of consummate evil" such a chromatic dragons irredeemable, and lastly BoED -which has the most comprehensive redemption system- only excludes creatures with the evil subtype from redemption. All of these keep keep Demon lords of the table, but the BoED one gives a loop-hole. If you can permanently remove the evil subtype, Fiends become redeemable.

As PAO shenanigans likely won't cut it in this scenario, your only option afaik is the Ritual of Alignment from Savage Species. It takes 24 uninterrupted hours, needs a 7th level cleric with access to the Good domain, the subject must be willing, and the subject must pay exp (and gold technically, but that might not apply depending). The easiest way to get the subject "willing" is to knock it unconscious. Failing that, I personally advocate using charm effects, as they technically preserve the subject's free will, in combination with an unbeatable Cha mod.

Once the evil subtype is gone, the rules would allow for actual redemption. The BoED approach works of diplomacy and special will saves, while the Complete Champion version requires the subject to un-do its wrongdoings. In either case, you'll likely want a pendant of redemption (Complete Champion p. 140); which tells you exactly what a subject needs to do to redeem itself (in your deities opinion), and also seems to suggest some Diplomacy works.

Now beyond rules, things get trickier. According to the Savage Tide adventure path, a Demon Lord is directly tied to its abyssal layer and gets influenced by the Abyss' "will", which forces endless will-saves to resist. Your Demon lord would need to relinquish hold on his layer, meaning he would have to stop being a demonlord by definition.

In terms of how to allow your characters to actually have a chance to do all this... the best I can come up with is using the Demonomicon of Iggwilv. It is detailed in some dragon mag issue, and explcitly has the power to bind powerful demons in its pages, and those Demons can then be interacted with to some degree, albeit not without some risk. That's where I'd look for inspiration.

[martixy]

@ShurikVch

Well... many of them are Immune to Mind Affecting anyway...
But of those that aren't(in their weaker, Fiendish Codex incarnations), Kostchtchie, Graz'zt, Malcanthet and the fungus-lady seem like good candidates. :)

@Jowgen
I actually spend a few minutes looking for your guide before posting, but as it seemed to concern itself with only mundane evil, I didn't read through all of it.

I think I found the spell you were referring though - it's called Imbrue. I like it. :)

The ritual + Evil subtype loophole is also a pretty good idea.

Conceptually it also makes sense - remove the intrinsic link to the abyss's nature/will and with the creature free of the taint/overriding directive it now gets to exercise more of its free will.

P.S. Oh, um, btw - can you give some more detail on these Will-saves vs. Abyss? Like numbers or heck, even just a page number.

[OldTrees1]

The Monster Manual (primary source on monsters) permits demon lords to change alignment. So it is possible despite being potentially unfeasible (due to time, temptations, and power of the individual).

[Platymus Pus]

I'd say so. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9zYQqxtQcIE)
You just have to have the demonlord fall in love.

[ShurikVch]

@ShurikVch

Well... many of them are Immune to Mind Affecting anyway...
But of those that aren't(in their weaker, Fiendish Codex incarnations), Kostchtchie, Graz'zt, Malcanthet and the fungus-lady seem like good candidates. :)On the contrary, in the Book of Vile Darkness none of them are immune; in the FC1 immune are all obyriths, Fraz-Urb’luu, and Orcus
Don't sure about Demon lords from other sources...

[Ravens_cry]

It depends, but, generally, I'd say no. You might as well ask if a Fire Elemental can become a Water Elemental.
I think of a demon lord as a living metaphor of Chaotic Evil.
It's not just something they do; it's something they are. They're kind of locked into this.
Now, more powerful forces could theoretically do it, but that would mean the divine, and since forcefully converting someone to a good alignment is, in my opinion, evil itself, I don't see divine forces of good doing it.

[Jowgen]

In regards to the points made by Ravens_Cry, I generally disagree, but they have lead me to revise my stance in one instance.

I don't think Obyrith lords are redeemable. They spawned/descended directly from the Abyss, meaning their whole being always has been one of pure chaotic evil. Their essences are of the highest degree of CE purity, have never known anything different, and by their very design shouldn't have the capacity to know different. However, Tanar'ri were generally all, once upon a very long time, mortal souls; meaning they at the very least should have some buried memory of what it used to be like being not 100% evil.

Even Orcus was a material plane native mortal once. Sure, his story is one of pure and utter unbridled hatred and domination leading him to the top of the food chain in an endless stream of evil violence and atrocity. However, if confronted of concepts with good, he may hate them with every fiber in his being, some part of it should still be able to comprehend them. He is the most unlikely of long-shots, but I don't think he should be 100% impossible to redeem.


Next on, I personally don't think divine forces can accomplish this sort of redemption. Going back to Orcus, he spend an extended period of time in the role of Primus, the most lawful thing ever. It was far from a healthy or enjoyable experience for him, but he got through it without turning even remotely more Lawful. This is actually one of the areas where I think the divine is limited compared to the mortal. Completely pure alignment forces like those of the divine lack the ability to empathize with their opposing force, they repel each other on every level. It's like Oil and water. However, the mortal capacity for moral impurity essentially equates to an emulsion, i.e. it can blur the lines.

Lastly, I severely disagree that any power of Good would consider forcing a good alignment onto an evil creature to be anything but a Good act. Redemption is described as the greatest act of Good possible. It is for the benefit of the redeemed, everyone the redeemed might affect positively later, and thus all of good. The notion that forcing someone to change would be a bad thing is not one of Good. It is one of Chaos. It is the Chaotic alignment component that cares about personal freedom and all that. So yeah, a CG deity might not approve of this, but that would be because they are Chaotic.

[Ravens_cry]

Except, that's not redemption, that's brainwashing. Redemption is a choice, a conscious choice, to change one's ways.
The results might be the same, but the means, well, means do matter. Tearing down a orphanage without finding new homes for the occupants to provide firewood to the poor wouldn't exactly be good.

[Gnaeus]

I'd say so. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9zYQqxtQcIE)
You just have to have the demonlord fall in love.

That does seem to be the most common method. It works for Harry Dresden, for one of the demons in Simon Greene's Nightside, and others.

For alternate inspiration, there is Crowley, in Good Omens, who appears to become non evil, or at least non-Evil, just by hanging out with humans and an angel for several millennia.

[Red Fel]

That does seem to be the most common method. It works for Harry Dresden, for one of the demons in Simon Greene's Nightside, and others.

For alternate inspiration, there is Crowley, in Good Omens, who appears to become non evil, or at least non-Evil, just by hanging out with humans and an angel for several millennia.

Crowley is an example of a more modern, pragmatic, affable Evil. The point made about him is that, having lived among humans for so long, he's more in touch with their needs and wants, what makes them tick, what makes them sick, and how best to reach them. He's also somewhat fond of them, inasmuch as they can be quite entertaining. His superiors, on the other hand, are utterly out of touch, and thus their views of cosmic and grand-scale Evil just don't strike the right tone for him.

Now, as to redeeming a Demon Lord... The easiest answer is "it depends." As in, it depends on whether Outsiders have anything resembling free will, or whether they are basically alignment-programmed automatons. At the very least, it would make sense for a Chaotic Outsider to rebel against its own nature, as the ultimate form of individual expression.

Further, if we narrow it to RAW, the answer becomes... "It still depends." By RAW, Outsiders are inherently made up of their alignment and iredeemable. By RAW, there is a spell that redeems them by force. And by RAW, there is a Succubus Paladin who inevitably gets mentioned in these debates (and I'm surprised she hasn't been mentioned yet). So, according to RAW, they either cannot be redeemed at all, can be redeemed by magic, or can redeem voluntarily.

I would chalk a great deal of it up to context and playing style. First rule: If it is your character, it is your choice. If it's a PC, nobody should be telling the player "Your character's alignment must remain immutable." (Caveat: Players can be strongly encouraged to keep on one side of the alignment grid.) If it's an NPC, it is as the DM has written it; his rule is (within reason) absolute.

On a related point, the setting plays a big role. In a campaign centered on the Material, where cosmic Good is Good and cosmic Evil is out to ruin everyone's fun, it's fine for Evil to remain Evil absolutely. In a Planescape-style campaign, where it's less about alignment and more about factions, having a redeemed Outsider - or even an entire faction of them - not only makes sense, it makes fun.

Now, others have mentioned the Big Bad Demon types. Certainly, it would take more effort to redeem a creature forged entirely of cosmic CE, for whom the concept is inherently alien, than to redeem a creature formerly mortal, for whom the concept was simply a waste of time. But that doesn't mean that the former is impossible, or that the latter is probable; it varies based on too many factors to count.

The thing to remember is that redemption - barring forced redemption a la Sanctify the Wicked or Mindrape - requires the subject to want it. Usually this is for one of two reasons: either (1) he has become disgusted with his lot, recognizes that it is the result of his own wickedness, and resolves to dig himself out of the dirt and become a better person (aka hitting rock bottom); or (2) he sees something he desires, and realizes that he will never have it as long as he remains the monster (aka the things we do for love). So, if you're looking to redeem a Cosmic Power, you need to find one who is either filled with self-loathing, or filled with a covetous all-consuming desire for something nothing Evil can possess.

[Âmesang]

I believe this was a central part of the overall plot in the Shackled City Adventure Path, though the demon lord, Adimarchus, started life as an angel and when his chance to redeem himself was proved to be nothing more than a trap he went mad.

[Jowgen]

Except, that's not redemption, that's brainwashing. Redemption is a choice, a conscious choice, to change one's ways. The results might be the same, but the means, well, means do matter

I am of the opinion that any (psychological) treatment geared towards the rehabilitation of an individual with some form of maladjustment/disorder that would let it be classed as Evil-aligned in D&D is actually quite indistinguishable from what is commonly known as brainwashing. You can't make a distinction based on something being against someone's will or employing extreme measures, as many such individuals categorically don't want treatment and more extreme cases simply need more extreme treatments for success. You could normally draw a line of what sort of treatments are morally acceptable, but since destroying a Fiend is a flat out always a good act, I don't think that applies.

Also, the part where an individual internalizes the notion of "I realize I'm bad and need to change" generally comes quite late in any serious case.


By RAW, there is a spell that redeems them by force.

I assume you refer to Sanctify the Wicked, and I recall you bringing this up before in a similar thread. I'm not sure whether I mentioned it back then, but I don't think it actually works that way by RAW. First, there is the "pull soul out of body" part of the spell, which conflicts with an Outsider's lack of a dual nature. Second, it applies the Sanctified Creature template, which explicitly states it "can be added
to any evil creature except for outsiders with the evil subtype". Now admittedly, there is the weirdness that it goes on to specify that Fiend-subtypes like Tanar'ri are lost, even though Fiends have the Evil subtype by definition. True, we've established that the subytype can be removed, but still... dysfunction thread candidate anyone?


Now, others have mentioned the Big Bad Demon types. Certainly, it would take more effort to redeem a creature forged entirely of cosmic CE, for whom the concept is inherently alien, than to redeem a creature formerly mortal, for whom the concept was simply a waste of time. But that doesn't mean that the former is impossible, or that the latter is probable; it varies based on too many factors to count.

I concur.


The thing to remember is that redemption - barring forced redemption a la Sanctify the Wicked or Mindrape - requires the subject to want it.

The "retain free will" clause of the charm effects and the "counts as willing" clause of the unconscious condition does provide quite a bit of wriggle room there.



So, if you're looking to redeem a Cosmic Power, you need to find one who is either filled with self-loathing, or filled with a covetous all-consuming desire for something nothing Evil can possess.

Interestingly, once again, Orcus is a perfect poster-boy here in a way. One of the regulars at Afroakuma's recently wrote a lovely characterization of him, which went into how he just loathes everything ever, including himself, and would only ever find peace by destroying everything else and then himself. The next best alternative, imo, would be Graz'zt (https://youtu.be/l1AiypRfTfc?t=46). Yes, his love-hate relationship with Iggwilv is almost certainly 100% physical, but he sure as hell is more likely to fall in love than anyone of his colleagues.

Now if you wanted to talk really big game on that Evil front... Asmodeus. He had a wife. He was furious when she got killed. And he used to actually be Good prior to his most epic of falls. We can securely conclude that Asmodeus has the capacity for love. I personally don't even think it even remotely possible for him to be redeemed in this or any other way ever in a octillion eternities, but others might think differently based on that.

[Red Fel]

Now if you wanted to talk really big game on that Evil front... Asmodeus. He had a wife. He was furious when she got killed. And he used to actually be Good prior to his most epic of falls. We can securely conclude that Asmodeus has the capacity for love. I personally don't even think it even remotely possible for him to be redeemed in this or any other way ever in a octillion eternities, but others might think differently based on that.

Now here's a subject close to what could arguably be defined as my heart. Could Asmodeus be redeemed?

First, he was once Good. Extremely Good. So he has the capacity for Goodness. Second, he was once in love, or what passes for love. So he has the capacity for love. And he can go outside of his coldly rational, perfectly ordered plan, as demonstrated when he lost his love. So he has the capacity to break out of his ordered scheme.

But would he throw it all away for any reason, even love?

I'm not talking about the power, the authority, the entire plane devoted to him, the symbolism of his name being synonymous with all that is truly vile in the cosmos. I'm not talking about that. I'm talking about duty.

With Asmodeus, you have LE, which means you have two choices - emphasize the L, or emphasize the E. If you are proceeding under a theory that he can be redeemed, you have to de-emphasize the E.

Which leads us to the L, and it's a very, very big L. This is the mind behind the Pact Primeval. This is the being whose defining moment was the words "Read the fine print." This is, if lore is to be believed, the being whose actions are directly responsible for Evil souls being tempted, lead into vice, and funneled to the Nine Hells, to belong to him by cosmic authority. This is a creature of rules, regulations, and very red tape. But more than that, this is a creature of Duty.

He has a Duty. A Cosmic Role to fill. He has an obligation, which he wants to fulfill, to tempt and stand in judgment over every wicked soul. He set himself up as the opposite number to the Heavens, and vigorously defends and executes that position.

He allowed his heart to be weakened by love once. And it disrupted his plans, his schemes... His duty.

Even if we were to de-emphasize his E, especially if we were to de-emphasize his E, we would be left with a staggeringly massive L, one which would preclude him from even desiring to abdicate his position. It's too important, not just to the cosmos, but to him, that he occupy the role of Supreme Cosmic Evil. It's all he has left, all that matters to him. You would not only be asking him to forsake the Hells, but to forsake his identity and reason for being.

I'm not saying you couldn't do it. I'm just saying you might want to focus on the Chaotic instead. Because in my mind, the only way Asmodeus redeems is if it was part of his plan all along.

[Jack_Simth]

Is this something anyone would deem even remotely feasible?

I mean we are talking about a 5000-year old manifestation of pure chaos and evil...
That is campaign-world specific, and up to the DM.

In general, though: What logic causes Demons and Devils to be (ir)redeemable that does not apply in the other direction to Angels being (in)fallible? For the most part, I'm of the opinion that if Angels can Fall, Demons can Rise, and if Angels can't fall, Demons can't Rise.

How exactly that could happen ... well, again, that's a campaign thing. Taint from something they've been fighting against and/or working with for an extremely long time? Strong personal motivations being shown to conflict with their actions in a way they can't ignore? Example? Arrangement of circumstance such that their underlying motivations will have them doing the right thing for so long that their alignment just naturally drifts? That's campaign-dependant.

[JBarca]

Do you have a bunch of free time right now? This (http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?58227-Tales-of-Wyre)is an example of a very fun Campaign Journal-esque read, the beginning of which revolves around a repentant Demon. I mean, most of what follows is at least indirectly tied to that as well. Excellent source of worldbuilding and character ideas, as well, if you're interested.

[Xar Zarath]

...snip...

This is quite true. The obyriths by their very nature are totally inscrutable. They are beings of utter chaos and evil and what they do is to further those ends. Mortals and their sinful souls came later and if you read up on Dragon Magazine 335? (the one with Malcanthet) the obyriths were puzzled by the succubi/incubi unable to understand the very concept/idea of lust and the demons that came from it. It shows their utter alien thinking, that they were never mortal or are able to grasp mortal thought.

As for redemption, anything is possible. One of the core of a demon is both evil and chaos. Chaos represents anarchy, destruction and entropy but it can also mean freedom, creativity and imagination. Its not that hard to think of Chaos as potential, the potential to be anything you want to be. In Planescape, some demons flirt with the concept of law, good and neutrality. Most go back to their evil ways because its easy. But some do stay on the righteous path.

A demon lord that has seen millennia and is suddenly bored of it all, the constant wars, backstabbing and petty uprisings could decide to go on a journey through the multiverse. Maybe he will converse with archangels, petty godlings and other divine powers. Maybe after a few eons, he decides on a new fate, one that doesn't have to be bound to the Abyss or evil itself.

A journey of self-discovery becomes a quest for redemption...or something like that:smallredface:

[Xuldarinar]

Can a Demon Lord be redeemed?


Whether it is 3e, 3.5, or pathfinder, the answer is yes.




While a demon lord is incredibly unlikely to desire redemption, willing to put forth the effort to climb from the depths to achieve redemption, or such that they would survive such a thing, we have a few things to consider.


Whether we speak of 3.5 or Pathfinder, the abyss has an infinite number of layers. Even with the statistical improbability of such a being to exist, theres effectively an infinite number of demon lords.



While we tend to focus on the evil aspect before the chaotic, in truth most things of the abyss are also chaotic in nature. Being strictly evil, even while under the label, can fall too much into a pattern. A demon lord could certainly rise by basis of whim or by random chance, or even simply the desire/willingness to rise.



A demon lord may pursue godhood, something that typically includes if not requires a degree of worship. A demon lord, even if falsely, could begin their path to redemption on the desire to attract followers. Perhaps they value power over evil, and since the odds are they would get the souls anyways, what does it matter? Over time, simply by promoting a benevolent following, their own alignment could change.



In some cases, worship can influence a patron. While enough worship can act as a catalyst to ascend an individual to godhood, and it most certainly powers them, there is another detail. Under pathfinder, a qlippoth lord can become a demon lord by being afflicted with the sins of their followers, transformed into another kind of being. If such a change can occur, perhaps a disproportionate number of benevolent worshippers can influence a demon lord. The redemption of a demigod wouldn't be a simple path, but in theory it is doable.



If you believe in Pelor of the Burning Hatred, however, this may not work. Or at least, there are precautions that can be taken.

[Waazraath]

I believe this was a central part of the overall plot in the Shackled City Adventure Path, though the demon lord, Adimarchus, started life as an angel and when his chance to redeem himself was proved to be nothing more than a trap he went mad.

+1. So yes, there is a precedent. From the SC campaign background it seems that the redemption process was story driven, and not by some item / artifact / spell. The whole process took quite some time though, and the demon lord in question started out as a celestial.

[SangoProduction]

I'd say so. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9zYQqxtQcIE)
You just have to have the demonlord fall in love.

That seems to be a theme with redeeming quite a few demons.

[Psyren]

I would say yes, just like an archangel or empyreal lord could potentially fall. It would be extremely unlikely, but theoretically possible.

[martixy]

Well... pontentially we could squeeze out a few centuries out of the game.


This is quite true. The obyriths by their very nature are totally inscrutable.
Totally conceding that point.
But of the demon lords that I'm aware of, this only eliminates Pale Night. :)

@Xuldarinar
Emphasising the chaotic aspect was my intention from the beginning.

And as our resident evil mastermind noted(I should watch that movie again), character can play a big role.

@JBarca
This thing reads like a novel. It's awesome.

Good ideas so far. Lotta fuel for thought.

[atemu1234]

Now here's a subject close to what could arguably be defined as my heart. Could Asmodeus be redeemed?

First, he was once Good. Extremely Good. So he has the capacity for Goodness. Second, he was once in love, or what passes for love. So he has the capacity for love. And he can go outside of his coldly rational, perfectly ordered plan, as demonstrated when he lost his love. So he has the capacity to break out of his ordered scheme.

Ehhh... he was less 'good' as he was 'law'. He existed, according to a few sources, before the whole 'good v. evil' thing was sorted out. He was lawful and wanted to destroy chaos. Some say the designation of evil was invented to separate him from the lawful deities.

[Amon Winterfall]

Is this something anyone would deem even remotely feasible?

I mean we are talking about a 5000-year old manifestation of pure chaos and evil...

It's not like your run of the mill stupid ogre or a drow or something. Demons are considered the embodiment of their their alignment after all. And the demon lords are presumably the purest distillation of that essence.

But I still wanna try. I just need some help, some idea that would make it not seem as outlandish.
(Basically the setup I'm planning is granting the PCs an object, or a way for them to interact with the demon lord by necessity - without any immediate corporeal threat, but with as much delicate influencing and subtle convincing and indoctrication as my DMing skills would allow).
The part with the McGuffin is history. The only variable is whether I let the PCs interact with the Demon Lord's soul (or was it "essence" since outsides don't have souls).

Perhaps, instead of aiming for a complete redemption, the demon could be convinced to simply experience the world from a different viewpoint for a few years - perhaps as a bargain for letting the demon experience anything at all, instead of being locked inside a featureless prison, in complete isolation of the world.
Or maybe a longer time scale, which would allow more time for influencing in both directions... cuz it's rather unfeasible for an immortal creature, used to weaving century-long plots to change its mind in a few years.
Which demon would be the most suitable? Perhaps the more intelligent ones would be more likely to respond to reason? Like Graz'zt. Or the less violent ones/with greater ties to the Material Plane like Malcanthet?

...or something.

Help me out here!

So many stories begin with the inverse of the premise that I have to support the idea in the strongest terms. The Concept of good aligned exemplars falling to evil isn't just possible, it's even well beyond game Canon--its even a premise of theology on its own right.

If an ideological creature made of good and powered by good can somehow switch sides to become super evil, these sorts of creatures are capable of making these choices even in spite of what they are. Canonically, Baalzebul sought the pursuit of perfection by any means, and Belial used the power of physical control and pain to gain advancement.

If Baalzebul was truly convinced that he needed to use only means that made reality more perfect in his pursuit or that Belial understood the importance of consent and gained the buy-in of those under them, they probably wouldn't have fallen to LE, and a case could be made that they might potentially rise out of it if so inspired.

The topic is demon lords, which given numbers, means that one of them is probably quite redeemable. Still, the process hinges on the same idea--what demonic power can be moved out of Chaotic Evil?

Demons, like all evil outsiders, enjoy devouring souls. This is basically trivial for something like a Demon Lord, which are well beyond a million times that of a damned soul. However, this has to stop for there to be any redemption. This probably isn't that difficult on its own.

Jubilex is the Demon Lord of Oozes and seems pretty much like a TN creature that is allegedly intelligent. He's got a wacko cult that like throwing innocents into slime blobs, but otherwise he's just a big blob. There is a lot of fiat in this, in that ugly is evil is most of the reason he's here, but getting Jubilex to true neutral and just ignoring cultists / souls outright in favor of quietly eating seems plausible, although unsatisfying.

Malchanet is irredeemable because Rape is irredeemable. And succubi are out to suck your soul dry with level drain--this is not informed consent, and having relations under false pretenses is morally rape. Exceptions or manipulations that allow for succubi to have sex without losing your soul and without deception don't define them.

Graz'zt is a dark seducer character that seems to have similar issues. It's not impossible to consider a CN Graz'zt that decides that there will be an orgy at his place, but it means him at least respecting those he has relations with enough to avoid baiting them into bad outcomes or other turmoil. There isn't anything necessarily evil aligned with sex for services (though is often chaotic aligned), but like in real life, the edges of these sorts of transactions start to become exploitative.

Demon Lords like Graz'zt aren't going to agree to measured controls to ensure that a sexual participant isn't being exploited by poor dealings. Indeed, given how marginal Graz'zt's cults are going to be, they quickly run out of choice--they need Graz'zt's aid to survive, and ruthless exploitation begins. If Graz'zt is seriously going to be shut down, the entire nature of sexual transactions needs to change--if all societies decide to legalize, codify and regulate sex for services instead of treating prostitutes as marginal characters or even purveyors of disease and sin--Graz'zt's portfolio starts to look different, and maybe he can be forced into having something like a LN alignment after society both accepts sex work as a legitimate trade, closely regulates it, and then essentially kills demand for less safe and more exploitative options.

For my two cents, though, I think the best candidate is the most fragile of the Demon Lords--Lloth.

In a very out of campaign sense, the Drow are very to extremely overrated. Elves themselves are on the long twilight of their people, facing extinction or hybridization owing to the extremely long time it takes for full-blood elves to have and raise children. Elves, though, generally have a strong cultural belief in cooperation and avoiding pointless feuding.

Now let's remove the hybridization escape; let's remove the middling to good relationships with other races--even add in a tradition of trying to enslave other species. Let's also add in a complete failure of the prisoner's dilemna: Members of this subrace are unable to trust each other for mutual gain. And let's outright reward treachery, assassination and Machiavellian scheming with divine favor.

These are the Drow. I think a lot of people are impressed with the short term appearance of a society that is obviously dangerous, cruel and is likely run by scary sorts. But there's no future here--the Drow can not survive the endless hostility of the other races they've fought against, and they can afford even less the attrition this sort of war would mean. Throw in that the Drow aren't even all that united, that they'll turn on each other much faster than humans, or even Orcs, would.

Lloth is either a goddess or a demon lord, but her answer to this has been truly remarkable. Lloth is interventionist with her race to the point where she keeps their society solvent from crisis to crisis. This is not an advantage, indeed, this just means that other deities actually matching her involvement with their own people means game over for the Drow--there is zero reason they can't just respond to her massive involvement with more equal involvement.

Put simply, the Drow are doomed, and so is Lloth. When the killing blow comes, Lloth will have no more cards left to play; her enemies will simply have matched her interventions with their own, and all of the sins of the Drow will be unleashed upon them--infighting, abused slaves, and opportunistic neighbors. If a deity, Lloth stands to lose whatever benefits worship provides her; if this isn't the end, she faces defeat from other deities and whatever process is involved to extract her divine rank from her.

Lloth the Demon Lord lasts a little longer, but the lack of champions appearing means that she's increasingly vulnerable to attack, and while there are never any guarantees in the Abyss, weakness is generally never a good idea.

Lloth must know all of this, and yet she acts as she does. We know too that the Drow were ejected from the surface and their common origin with other Elves, but its clear that the situation is critical now, and that this isn't going to work out well for the Drow or Lloth.

So there's a need, a critical one, for Lloth to consider redemption. And equally critical for the Drow to look for a way out themselves. This doesn't mean it will be easy--the world isn't going to just agree that the Drow are redeemed and the Drow themselves will initially view any massive social shift as a great way to purge and lead.

But expanding on the premise of Driz'zt Do Urden and forcing Lolth herself to realize that it will all end in a dire future if something isn't done, then using that window to confront the hard truths of just how hard it will be to keep the Drow alive, that morality is not optional and that it is the only hope for her people--this could be very good.

Or, if you're playing realistically, keeping the Drow from being genocided in the time of great weakness will itself offer a similar challenge as well.

[endur]

Go read Sep's story hour.

http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?58227-Tales-of-Wyre

Tale of love between a paladin and a succubus and redemption. Also lots of other goodness, including involvement of demon lords, arch devils, etc.

[Xervous]

Now beyond rules, things get trickier. According to the Savage Tide adventure path, a Demon Lord is directly tied to its abyssal layer and gets influenced by the Abyss' "will", which forces endless will-saves to resist. Your Demon lord would need to relinquish hold on his layer, meaning he would have to stop being a demonlord by definition.

Which Dragonmag article has this information?

[Quertus]

Ehhh... he was less 'good' as he was 'law'. He existed, according to a few sources, before the whole 'good v. evil' thing was sorted out. He was lawful and wanted to destroy chaos. Some say the designation of evil was invented to separate him from the lawful deities.

In 2e lore, I think he was just evil, back before chaos was a thing. Incidentally, I think he helped accidentally create chaos, IIRC.

[ShurikVch]

Note: Demon Lord template from Dragon #359 don't change your alignment; it give you Chaotic (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/typesSubtypes.htm#chaoticSubtype) and Evil (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/typesSubtypes.htm#evilSubtype) subtypes, but simple Will save may prevent alignment change
Even for Demon Lords who are already Evil, it still should be possible to change alignment in appropriate circumstances - they are sentient creatures, thus able to change their mind

[Jowgen]

Which Dragonmag article has this information?

My bad, meant to write Dungeon. :smallredface: It's issue 150 found in bits and pieces from page 93 to page 96. Some of the effects are Demogorgon specific, but the mechanics should apply similarly to all demonlords as far as I can tell.

[HeadAcheron]

What Xuldarinar said: there are an infinite number of Demon Lords, so even a 0% chance of redemption could still multiply out to a non-0 number that do redeem :smalltongue:

[ShurikVch]

Now beyond rules, things get trickier. According to the Savage Tide adventure path, a Demon Lord is directly tied to its abyssal layer and gets influenced by the Abyss' "will", which forces endless will-saves to resist. Your Demon lord would need to relinquish hold on his layer, meaning he would have to stop being a demonlord by definition.Alternately, you may try to redeem the whole layer...

[Xuldarinar]

What Xuldarinar said: there are an infinite number of Demon Lords, so even a 0% chance of redemption could still multiply out to a non-0 number that do redeem :smalltongue:


We can layer on this.


Lets say that (1.0 x 10 -100)% of demons are demon lords, and (0.1 x 10 -googol)% of demons are redeemable or redeemed.

Given that there is an infinite (or near infinite) number of demons.. There are still enough that the number of redeemed and redeemable demon lords vastly outnumber every non-demonic deity and demigod as well as their followers.

[Jowgen]

Alternately, you may try to redeem the whole layer...

... From what I recall reading in Afro's threads, that is actually not 100% impossible. If enough souls on that layer were to switch to e.g chaotic neutral, that particular layer from the abyss might break off and drop into Limbo.

[Âmesang]

To mention Shackled City again, that was a minor plot point — Occipitus was originally a chunk of Celestia that was cast into the Abyss, so depending on the party's actions there'd be a chance of purifying it and reuniting it with Celestia. Well, if I'm remembering it correctly. :smalltongue: Though that's kind of a unique example in and of itself.

[atemu1234]

To mention Shackled City again, that was a minor plot point — Occipitus was originally a chunk of Celestia that was cast into the Abyss, so depending on the party's actions there'd be a chance of purifying it and reuniting it with Celestia. Well, if I'm remembering it correctly. :smalltongue: Though that's kind of a unique example in and of itself.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't that require killing literally everything on it to purify it? Or at least the corrupted things, at any rate.

That's the equivalent of culling the infected portion of a body by removing a limb, then claiming the limb is healed.

[ShurikVch]

This thread:
The Redeemery: How to reliably turn evil to good on a large scale (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?410846-The-Redeemery-A-protocol-for-reliable-large-scale-conversion-from-Evil-to-Good&p=19141646&viewfull=1#post19141646)

[Eno Remnant]

This thread:
The Redeemery: How to reliably turn evil to good on a large scale (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?410846-The-Redeemery-A-protocol-for-reliable-large-scale-conversion-from-Evil-to-Good&p=19141646&viewfull=1#post19141646)

If you look closely, you'll see that The Redeemery was conceived by Jowgen, who is already in the thread arguing fiendish redemption.

While The Redeemery is cool, it's also not really what the OP is looking for. The preference not to fix things with the snap of a spell is why the subject is still up for debate.

[Âmesang]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't that require killing literally everything on it to purify it? Or at least the corrupted things, at any rate.

That's the equivalent of culling the infected portion of a body by removing a limb, then claiming the limb is healed.
Well because Occipitus wavers between Good and Evil there weren't too many fiends to begin with (they considered it a "cursed" place), but I recall purifying would mainly come about by having a Good-aligned character claim the "Smoking Eye" template, essentially becoming Lord of the realm, and that would… dissipate outward? Eventually?

(Granted when I last played the adventure the template was obtained by a CE drow player and their NPC succubus ally, so it's kind of a moot point for them.)

[Psyren]

We can layer on this.


Lets say that (1.0 x 10 -100)% of demons are demon lords, and (0.1 x 10 -googol)% of demons are redeemable or redeemed.

Given that there is an infinite (or near infinite) number of demons.. There are still enough that the number of redeemed and redeemable demon lords vastly outnumber every non-demonic deity and demigod as well as their followers.

I think there are only infinite demons over time. If we posit that demons are being destroyed (by devils, celestials, mortals, backstabbing/slaughtering each other, the plane itself, or other) at roughly the same rate that they spawn, you'd actually end up with a finite number of demons at any given moment. And at that specific moment, X% are redeemable.

[NichG]

The mechanics of it are honestly irrelevant. The hard thing is to make it not feel cheap to the players. Any process that bypasses the details of 'this guy is a 5000 year old embodiment of evil' - that is, something which doesn't care about the target - will feel cheap.

That doesn't just rule out purely mechanical things, it also rules out a lot of redemption tropes such as being evil only because of ignorance, or because of circumstance, or being forced to be evil (but secretly not wanting to be).

So you have to ask - what must they really want that causes them to have decided that evil is the correct choice for them, despite everything that they must have seen and experienced? Convincing them to want differently is not redeeming the demon lord, it's replacing them with someone else who is easy to redeem. So you have to show them why their deepest desires and beliefs will ultimately be impossible if they remain as they have been going, but could be possible if they change. And you need to do this for someone who has spent a hundred human lifetimes thinking about it.

That's perhaps why love is a useful example. It's a new thing - a new form given to an old desire - and so the best way may no longer be the old way. With a change in their world, their reason for evil may weaken, and you can apply force at the conflict between what they really want and how they're used to being.

So the first question is, what kinds of things can a demon lord truly care about, such that evil is initially the best way to achieve them. Then, which of those can change so that good can become the better path due to a shift in circumstance (and one that would not have happened in 5000 years so far)?

[martixy]

This thread:
The Redeemery: How to reliably turn evil to good on a large scale (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?410846-The-Redeemery-A-protocol-for-reliable-large-scale-conversion-from-Evil-to-Good&p=19141646&viewfull=1#post19141646)

What Eno said.
+it's also more of a large-scale, low-level, which is somewhat opposite of what we're trying to do here.


My bad, meant to write Dungeon. :smallredface: It's issue 150 found in bits and pieces from page 93 to page 96. Some of the effects are Demogorgon specific, but the mechanics should apply similarly to all demonlords as far as I can tell.

Still not seeing it though... the only reference I could locate was a DC30 Will save against being drawn in the Wells of Darkness in case they fail to provide a replacement for a freed succubus queen. Even that is only awarded if the Demogorgon has been slain.

The only other check is for assuming the Demogornon's mantle in that event. But the idea itself is clever, regardless of where it came from.

I agree with Amon, due to the prevalence of the inverse, and Lolth is an intriguing option I hadn't even considered.
It is also amusing how easily real-world cultural biases could slip in.

Redeeming an entire layer or subsection is also a highly amusing idea, though on an entirely different scale(though the redeemery might help there).

As for the numbers game, I've always wondered how you could plausibly establish the infiniteness of the various planes. It's a statement that has always rung hollow for me - like somebody propped up a cardboard background at the end the known parts of the planes to create the illusion.
The reasons for this are outside of the game and obvious, but I feel the need for an explanation nevertheless - like say, certain parts of the PMP are bound to certain parts of the other layers. Or the barrier between layers is weaker in the known parts.

But there could very well be spatially infinite demons, not just temporally, just less accessible - gives you the freedom to pull completely new demon lords out of your ...hat.

@NichG
That's the point of the thread. :smallbiggrin:
Brainstorming on how to not make it feel cheap. Plus, it's an interesting discussion on the nature of evil. :)

Edit:
There is one other thing.
I did actually remember a particularly striking cover of a certain Dragon magazine issue - notable for containing a few of our favourite templates such as Arctic and Magic Blooded.
Well, the feature article(with the pretty cover picture) deals exactly with redemption(and the opposite). It's not that nuanced, but it can provide a few insights.