how come haley got seniority over Durkon??

[dehro]

a few comics back (444), durkon asks her to get her wits together since she's the new leader...

shouldn't this role be of durkon himself, instead?

(i have not read the books, yet, but know that he's been with roy the longest... but then, maybe in the books a different agreement has been made)

[Mjoellnir]

She was elected second-in-command in return for not stealing from the others when they sleep. :smallbiggrin: Origin of the PC's.

[squidthingy]

and even if your haven't read origin of pc's, think about it, sabine is introduced as nale's second-in-command, haley is sabine's good oppisite, put those two together and you get haley as second-in-command

[kialos]

Haley is better at math for obvious reasons. Thats why she is in second in command

[Studoku]

She also has high charisma, allowing her to be an effective leader.

[Tarp]

Durkon is not a leader, he`s an advisor, a grandfather like person to the rest of the party, at his best when he can pick the times to give moral/general advise so they can do whats the best/right thing to do... when he is not afraid of trees or distracted by large mugs of ale that is :smallsmile:

[squidthingy]

Haley is better at math for obvious reasons. Thats why she is in second in command

She also has high charisma, allowing her to be an effective leader.

no i believe Mjoellnir was right about the agreement to not steal from party thing

btw where does it say haley has a high charisma, it says elan has an 18 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0028.html) but i don't remember anything about haley

[Freelance Henchman]

no i believe Mjoellnir was right about the agreement to not steal from party thing

btw where does it say haley has a high charisma, it says elan has an 18 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0028.html) but i don't remember anything about haley

Rogues need some Charisma, don't they (to pull one over credulous fools by selling them "genuine" diamonds etc.)? Dex definitely, Int as well, but Wis and Str not so much.

[squidthingy]

Rogues need some Charisma, don't they (to pull one over credulous fools by selling them "genuine" diamonds etc.)? Dex definitely, Int as well, but Wis and Str not so much.

yeah just like rangers need some wisdom *cough*BELKAR*cough*

[Baalzebub]

And I wouldn't recommend to have a lider who thinks the trees are evil creatures and runs from them.

[Silencer]

and even if your haven't read origin of pc's, think about it, sabine is introduced as nale's second-in-command, haley is sabine's good oppisite, put those two together and you get haley as second-in-command

While Thog has IN as the dump stat and certainly doesn't correspond to Roy in this aspect. How does your reasoning stand up to that? ;)

[squidthingy]

While Thog has IN as the dump stat and certainly doesn't correspond to Roy in this aspect. How does your reasoning stand up to that? ;)

my reasoning has said nothing about ability scores, it mentions titles examples are as follows

roy(good melee fighter) to thog(evil melee fighter)
belkar(good(modertally) tracker) to yikyik(evil tracker)
durkon(good spiritual advisor(cleric))to hilgya(evil spiritual advisor(cleric))
Vaarsuvious(good spellcaster) to Zz'drit(evil spellcaster(team wizard))
Haley(good melee ranged/second-in-command) to Sabine(evil melee ranged/second-in-command)
and
elan(good twin) to nale(evil twin)

;P

[Soepvork]

While Thog has IN as the dump stat and certainly doesn't correspond to Roy in this aspect. How does your reasoning stand up to that? ;)

Well:

Thog seems to have (even) less INT than an average fighter, while Roy seems to be quite smart for a fighter

[lenster]

Even without the Origin of PCs/Linear Guild arguments, Haley is the only member other than Roy to have both good Intelligence and Charisma. She's a natural choice as second-in-command.


Thog seems to have (even) less INT than an average fighter, while Roy seems to be quite smart for a fighter
The Mind Flayer even preferred going after Roy's brain over Varsuuvius's, after all.

[Victor Thorian]

I think of Haley as more of a ranged attacker.
Also Belkar is evil, and YikYik is evil too. Opposites on that regard are Halfling vs Kobold.

By the logic of yours,as Roy is the leader of Oots, Thog should be the leader of LG, because they are opposites.

[squidthingy]

Haley is the only member other than Roy to have both good Intelligence and Charisma

I said it once, I'll say it again, where does it say haley has a high charisma, elan even says samantha has a higher charisma (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0161.html)than haley

[Gooba]

H
aley is the only member other than Roy to have both good Intelligence and Charisma. She's a natural choice as second-in-command.

That's right. Durkon hasn't the necessary charisma. Now the charisma of the party members seems to go:

Elan - very good
Roy/Haley - reasonably good
the rest - distinctly average or poor

But Elan is way too stupid to be leader. Even if Haley has higher charisma than Roy, he was (now he's dead...) the one who recruited the party in the first place so he was the leader by default.

[lenster]

I said it once, I'll say it again, where does it say haley has a high charisma, elan even says samantha has a higher charisma (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0161.html)than haley
As someone said in the class/level geekery thread... she's clearly attractive and persuasive, it'd be fine to infer she has 12-14 charisma. And 14 is high, yes. Not exceptional, but high.

Also, Samantha is a freaking sorcerer. Charisma is her main ability. The fact somebody is less charismatic than her clearly doesn't mean a minus, etc.

[squidthingy]

Roy/Haley - reasonably good


where are people getting the impression that haley has a good charisma(did I miss something) cursed infidels, banjulhu smite them where they stand(or sit)

[lenster]

where are people getting the impression that haley has a good charisma(did I miss something) cursed infidels, banjulhu smite them where they stand(or sit)
You possibly missed her being persuasive and attractive. The first being a clear Charisma-based trait, and the second regularly (although not always) believed as such.

[TARINunit9]

The main reason Haley is second in comand is revealed in "the origen of the PC's". I will say no more to prevent spoilers.

[squidthingy]

You possibly missed her being persuasive and attractive. The first being a clear Charisma-based trait, and the second regularly (although not always) believed as such.

the being persuasive part can be expalined, the main skills for this are bluff, diplomacy, and sense motive. sense motive has a wisdom mod so it has mothing to do with charisma, and haley has good sense motive as can be seen here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0046.html). As for bluff and diplomacy skill points affect that more than the modifier, for example, person A(fighter) has 18 cha while person B(rouge) has 12 cha, assuming they both have 10 int(so the mod is +0) and put all points evenly split into bluff and diplomacy person A would have a mod of 4 for 1 and 5 for the other, while person B would have a mod of 5 for both

[Sky_Schemer]

where are people getting the impression that haley has a good charisma(did I miss something)

There are a few lines in Origins that suggest she has a higher-than-average charisma, along with a smattering in the online strips such as 425 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0425.html) and 335 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0335.html).


cursed infidels, banjulhu smite them where they stand(or sit)

That's really annoying.

[dish]

where are people getting the impression that haley has a good charisma (did I miss something)

Possibly from 312 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0312.html)?

Ok, Durkon indicates that Roy, Elan, and Haley are the only members with 'any charisma', but that and other details mentioned above certain give the impression that Haley's charisma must be reasonable-to-good.

[squidthingy]

There are a few lines in Origins that suggest she has a higher-than-average charisma, along with a smattering in the online strips such as 425 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0425.html) and 335 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0335.html).


425 could be because it is a sleazy assassin scum dragged out of jail and in 335 it could be that belkar simply doesn't hate haley because she has done nothing to anger him so she gets filled under lust instead of hate


That's really annoying.
yeah I'll stop Foolish mortal how dare you command me! Banjulhu I need you to smite Sky Schemer, TWICE!!! Also notice that my signiture is now mysteriously longer

[squidthingy]

Possibly from 312 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0312.html)?

Ok, Durkon indicates that Roy, Elan, and Haley are the only members with 'any charisma', but that and other details mentioned above certain give the impression that Haley's charisma must be reasonable-to-good.

no it stats that elan or roy or haley has charisma. we know elan from here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0028.html) but roy and haley we can't be certain about because it does not say any names

[Krellen]

I just have to say that if you don't realise both Roy and Haley have moderately high Charismas, you clearly don't understand the D&D system and should not be making arguments about it.

Yes, Elan has an 18, but Roy and Haley both have scores in the neighbourhood of 14. This has been made abundantly clear throughout the comic, and really needs no explanation beyond "read the whole comic". You may also need to reread the definition of Charisma, both in the dictionary and in the core rulebooks.

[tanonev]

I'd say Haley's charisma would have to be pretty high in order to get Durkon's attention. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0035.html) (She got Roy, too, and Roy is sensitive to high-charisma ladies...)

EDIT: Keep Occam's Razor in mind as well. If the comic makes more sense with a high-charisma Haley than with a low-charisma Haley, even if nothing is technically broken by low charisma, we must assume that Haley has high charisma.

[dish]

Possibly from 312 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0312.html)?

no it stats that elan or roy or haley has charisma. we know elan from here but roy and haley we can't be certain about because it does not say any names

Hmm, well, determiners in the English language can be notoriously tricksy things, but I take, 'All the members of the party with any charisma...' to indicate, 'a number greater than two'.
Had Durkon just been referencing Elan he would have said, 'The only member of the party...'
Had he been referencing Roy & Elan he would have said, 'Both members of the party...' or, 'The only (two) members of the party...'
As he used 'all', I find the easiest grammatical explanation to be, 'Roy, Elan and Haley'.

[fruityjanitor]

no it stats that elan or roy or haley has charisma. we know elan from here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0028.html) but roy and haley we can't be certain about because it does not say any names

If V said "the" member with any charisma, that would imply that one person has good charisma.

If V said "both" members with any charisma, that would imply that two people have good charisma.

But he/she said "all" the members with any charisma, which implies three or more people have good charisma. Since there are only 3 members that are not with V at the time (Roy, Haley, and Elan), we can assume he/she meant that all three of them have good (or at least decent) charisma.

Edit: Ninja'd!

[squidthingy]

She got Roy, too, and Roy is sensitive to high-charisma ladies

One word...Miko


EDIT: Keep Occam's Razor in mind as well. If the comic makes more sense with a high-charisma Haley than with a low-charisma Haley, even if nothing is technically broken by low charisma, we must assume that Haley has high charisma.

from what I understand of Occam's Razor it means that we should make as few assumptions as possible, which is what I am doing, I am saying we can't assume haley has a high charisma, the following are a few of my quotes from this thread that support my previous statement

where does it say haley has a high charisma, it says elan has an 18 but i don't remember anything about haley

I said it once, I'll say it again, where does it say haley has a high charisma, elan even says samantha has a higher charisma than haley

where are people getting the impression that haley has a good charisma(did I miss something)
here is me stating that other people should not make assumptions about the mentioned threads

425 could be because it is a sleazy assassin scum dragged out of jail and in 335 it could be that belkar simply doesn't hate haley because she has done nothing to anger him so she gets filled under lust instead of hate
now the following are a few quotes from this thread where people(not me) make assumptions

She also has high charisma, allowing her to be an effective leader.

Rogues need some Charisma

[squidthingy]

Hmm, well, determiners in the English language can be notoriously tricksy things, but I take, 'All the members of the party with any charisma...' to indicate, 'a number greater than two'.
Had Durkon just been referencing Elan he would have said, 'The only member of the party...'
Had he been referencing Roy & Elan he would have said, 'Both members of the party...' or, 'The only (two) members of the party...'
As he used 'all', I find the easiest grammatical explanation to be, 'Roy, Elan and Haley'.

the 'all' that V said did not refer to all the other members of the party, it refered to all the other members with charisma

so you are partially right in saying to it can't be just Elan, but it could be Elan and Roy or Elan and Haley, we don't know so we can't make the assumption that haley has a high charisma from this strip(occum's razor)

[fruityjanitor]

the 'all' that V said did not refer to all the other members of the party, it refered to all the other members with charisma

so you are partially right in saying to it can't be just Elan, but it could be Elan and Roy or Elan and Haley, we don't know so we can't make the assumption that haley has a high charisma from this strip(occum's razor)

"All" is rarely used to refer to only two people/things. It is almost always used to refer to three or more people/things.

[dish]

As ^ says: 'both' means 'two', 'all' means 'the whole of' and, in English, almost always refers to 'three or more'.
Given the context, and Durkon's choice of wording, when he could have used 'both' had he chosen to, it's referring to three people.

[squidthingy]

"All" is rarely used to refer to only two people/things. It is almost always used to refer to three or more people/things.

As ^ says: 'both' means 'two', 'all' means 'the whole of' and, in English, almost always refers to 'three or more'.
Given the context, and Durkon's choice of wording, when he could have used 'both' had he chosen to, it's referring to three people.

one problem with your argument, the word 'almost', in English this means not all the time which means you are making unessicery assumptions when assuming that all means more than two(occum's razor) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occam's_Razor)

[Gooba]

Right, I think we can safely assume that Durkon, V and Belkar have no positive charisma modifier, given the pretty specific references to that cited.

So we know that irrespective of his charisma Roy is leader because he's the 'founder' of the party. I fail to see anything that suggests his charisma should be less than 12 mind. And 14 would seem a more reasonable guess.

Elan is too stupid to be 2-in-c. That is well established.

Why would you think Hayley has a Cha of less than 12? There is no good reason for that assumption. Like Roy, I'd say a reasonable guess qould be in the 12-14 range.

If you want to assume Hayley has no charisma bonus, fine. But it doesn't seem to me to be a reasonable way of looking at her character. I do feel that you're just arguing this for the sake of it a bit.

[Gandal]

yeah just like rangers need some wisdom *cough*BELKAR*cough*
The characters with charisma penalties are said to be Belkar, Durkon, and Vaarsuvius. Plus, Haley is charismatic enough to woo the adolescent goblin, sweet-talk the little bandits, talk to the old bandit guy, go out with Elan, get hit on by Larceny Guy...

[Jorrath_Zek]

In comic #2, Haley is chosen to lead the second half of the party. This lends presidence to the idea that she's the second most competent leader in the group. She also does a good job of picking a good team sticking the Cute but incompetent bard with Roy.

And then, of course Roy put her in charge in #429 when he told Elan to tell Haley to hold the wall.

Durkon is plenty wise enough to recognize that ability to lead is more important than senority, so I very much doubt his character would have made an issue of it.

[squidthingy]

Why would you think Hayley has a Cha of less than 12? There is no good reason for that assumption. Like Roy, I'd say a reasonable guess qould be in the 12-14 range.

If you want to assume Hayley has no charisma bonus, fine. But it doesn't seem to me to be a reasonable way of looking at her character. I do feel that you're just arguing this for the sake of it a bit.

If this comment is directed at me(which it appears it is), I would like to point out(again) that I did not say Haley has a low charisma modifier, I said we can't assume haley is second-in-command because she has a high charisma modifier the following quote proves this



Haley is better at math for obvious reasons. Thats why she is in second in command

She also has high charisma, allowing her to be an effective leader.

no i believe Mjoellnir was right about the agreement to not steal from party thing

btw where does it say haley has a high charisma, it says elan has an 18 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0028.html) but i don't remember anything about haley

[squidthingy]

The characters with charisma penalties are said to be Belkar, Durkon, and Vaarsuvius. Plus, Haley is charismatic enough to woo the adolescent goblin, sweet-talk the little bandits, talk to the old bandit guy, go out with Elan, get hit on by Larceny Guy...

the first two have to do with bluff and diplomacy checks I went through that already in this thread(see following quote)

the being persuasive part can be expalined, the main skills for this are bluff, diplomacy, and sense motive. sense motive has a wisdom mod so it has mothing to do with charisma, and haley has good sense motive as can be seen here. As for bluff and diplomacy skill points affect that more than the modifier, for example, person A(fighter) has 18 cha while person B(rouge) has 12 cha, assuming they both have 10 int(so the mod is +0) and put all points evenly split into bluff and diplomacy person A would have a mod of 4 for 1 and 5 for the other, while person B would have a mod of 5 for both
and as for the bandit see following quote from me on this thread

could be because it is a sleazy assassin scum dragged out of jail

[tanonev]

One word...Miko

My point exactly. Roy fell pretty hard for Miko when he first met her. And let's not forget the round gems double entendre--the guys wouldn't have been nearly as interested in hearing that conversation if Haley had low charisma.


from what I understand of Occam's Razor it means that we should make as few assumptions as possible, which is what I am doing, I am saying we can't assume haley has a high charisma, the following are a few of my quotes from this thread that support my previous statement

You say this, and yet for every scenario we bring up you provide a different set of assumptions in order to explain it? That's one simple assumption as opposed to a whole truckload of haphazard assumptions.

Beginning a statement with "could be" does not change the fact that it is making an assumption. And in any case, Occam's Razor is not about making as few assumptions as possible. The logical extreme of that would be to make 0 assumptions and for every single event enumerate all of the billions of possible explanations, which is absurd. Occam's Razor is about making the simplest assumptions possible, and "Haley has high charisma" is a simple assumption.

[squidthingy]

"Haley has high charisma" is a simple assumption.

Tanonev, please read my second post of this thread(located at the end of this post) here is where I am saying that Haley is second in command because of the agreement(no assumptions involved), also in the post I tell other posters there is no need to make the assumptions(charisma and math-skills) that they do because a logical solution for haley's second in command position(agreement from origin of pc's). I used occum's razor correct there, if I am not mistaken(tell me if I am), by saying not to assume haley has charisma because a explanation has already been found. this lead to a entire discussion about assumtions and haley's charisma which included you talking about occum's razor



Haley is better at math for obvious reasons. Thats why she is in second in command

She also has high charisma, allowing her to be an effective leader.

no i believe Mjoellnir was right about the agreement to not steal from party thing

btw where does it say haley has a high charisma, it says elan has an 18 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0028.html) but i don't remember anything about haley

[dish]

one problem with your argument, the word 'almost', in English this means not all the time which means you are making unessicery assumptions when assuming that all means more than two
Let's say (completely making this up since I don't have a large enough grammar book on hand) that in this case 'all' refers to 'three or more' in 99% of these types of usages. Is it not an unecessary assumption to presume that here 'all' may not refer to 'three or more'?

Also, dude, you're using Ockham's Razor, a methodological principle of parsimony in scientific explanation, on literary* criticism. Literary criticism is not really known for being terribly scientific. It relies a lot more on impressionism, symbollism, pragmatism and all that horrible fluffy stuff.

Edit: Can we agree that it is strongly implied that Haley has good-to-reasonable charisma, even if it it never explicitly stated as such?

* For the OOTS is certainly literature. Of the highest degree.

[Thanatos 51-50]

First off, Squidthingy, theres a really big charecter limit on V-bulletin boards, there is no need to double post as rampantly as you're doing.
Pleasepleaseplease stop.

Rogues are mostly mental-based charecters, just not in the magickal field of mental attributes.
There is no such thing as an old, stupid theif.

Charisma is the key ability for skills such as diplomacy, bluff, and disguise, something most rogues put ranks in. (Unless you're going for an all-out cat burgler). Charisma is a good thing to drop points in as a rogue, its simple, most rogues do it.
Hail Banjhulu

[gatitcz]

roy(good melee fighter) to thog(evil melee fighter)
belkar(good(modertally) tracker) to yikyik(evil tracker)
durkon(good spiritual advisor(cleric))to hilgya(evil spiritual advisor(cleric))
Vaarsuvious(good spellcaster) to Zz'drit(evil spellcaster(team wizard))
Haley(good melee ranged/second-in-command) to Sabine(evil melee ranged/second-in-command)
and
elan(good twin) to nale(evil twin)


I don't think Nale's second-in-command had to be Sabine based on Haley being in second-in-command. After all, Roy (good melee fighter/LEADER) to Thog (evil melee fighter/lacky) doesn't translate as well.

[tanonev]

Tanonev, please read my second post of this thread(located at the end of this post) here is where I am saying that Haley is second in command because of the agreement(no assumptions involved), also in the post I tell other posters there is no need to make the assumptions(charisma and math-skills) that they do because a logical solution for haley's second in command position(agreement from origin of pc's). I used occum's razor correct there, if I am not mistaken(tell me if I am), by saying not to assume haley has charisma because a explanation has already been found. this lead to a entire discussion about assumtions and haley's charisma which included you talking about occum's razor

You are indeed mistaken. Here's an analogy: Newton's Law of Universal Gravitation is by no means necessary for an explanation of electromagnetic force. In a discussion about electromagnetism, there is probably no need to reference gravity. However, you CANNOT therefore use Occam's Razor to conclude that gravity does not exist.

In the same way, Haley's charisma score is superfluous if there was an explicit agreement in OtOoPCs. However, the assumption that Haley has high charisma is made for the sake of other events, not this one in particular. So if someone brings up Haley's charisma, you can point out that it's unnecessary in this situation, but you cannot use Occam's Razor to conclude that the assumption in and of itself is wrong or unnecessary.

EDIT:

Also, dude, you're using Ockham's Razor, a methodological principle of parsimony in scientific explanation, on literary* criticism. Literary criticism is not really known for being terribly scientific. It relies a lot more on impressionism, symbollism, pragmatism and all that horrible fluffy stuff.


Occam's Razor can be and is extended to the realm of literature. It is the reason we don't take theories like "the OotS is actually the manifestation of Roy's multiple personalities" seriously. :smallwink: I'm inclined to call Occam's Razor a formal definition of common sense (or at least some subset of it).

[MadHatter]

Why can't Durkon have a positive CHA score? He's a cleric afterall and it helps his turning checks.

Just thought I'd throw it out there :smalltongue:

[tanonev]

Durkon says he has a "low Charisma modifier." (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0200.html)

Here's some food for thought, though: If Roy and Durkon are both PCs, why should Charisma have any effect on Durkon's ability to communicate with Roy? o_O

[Axl_Rose]

She was elected second-in-command in return for not stealing from the others when they sleep. Origin of the PC's.

Well thanks a lot. Put it in a spoiler box for those of us who HAVEN'T read Origin of PC's yet.

[Stevenson]

and even if your haven't read origin of pc's, think about it, sabine is introduced as nale's second-in-command, haley is sabine's good oppisite, put those two together and you get haley as second-in-command

....so, does that mean Elan's the actual leader of the OotS, by that logic?

[TheNovak]

Gah! Read On the Origin of PCs, people! It's all in there!

And if ya can't afford to and have to argue about Charisma, well, here's another head beating against the brick wall.

Haley likes to Bluff. Bluff is a Charisma-based skill. She is very good at Bluffing, and in fact, has max skill ranks in it for her level. Now, if I were building a rogue character that liked to Bluff, I would have a decent Charisma (at least a 12 or 14). Ergo, Haley has a Charisma of at least 12 or 14.

And bringing up Miko, she was a Paladin. Charisma is a very, very important stat for Paladins, because it affects their Divine Grace bonus to saving throws, the amount they can heal with Lay on Hands, and how much damage they do with Smite Evil. Ergo, Miko (like most paladins) had a decent Charisma of at least 12 or 14, possibly 16.

Samantha was a Sorcerer. Charisma is THE stat for Sorcerers; everything else is fluff. Given that she decimated Haley fairly easily, I'll say she was atleast level 8, and put her stat increases into Charisma. She probably had a Charisma of 20, or at least 18.

18 is higher than 14. Ergo, Samantha had a higher Charisma than Haley. Hence Elan's comment.

That is all.

[squidthingy]

....so, does that mean Elan's the actual leader of the OotS, by that logic?

that's like saying yikyik has to be nine feet tall(3 feet over average) because belkar is 3 feet tall(3 feet below average). my point, not everything has to be the exactly oppasite

punk

[squidthingy]

Well thanks a lot. Put it in a spoiler box for those of us who HAVEN'T read Origin of PC's yet.

a spoiler box would than have put on half the posts in this thread making it hard to read, i have never read on the origin of pc's but it's not it gives away anything important like roy dying (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0443.html)

[squidthingy]

First off, Squidthingy, theres a really big charecter limit on V-bulletin boards, there is no need to double post as rampantly as you're doing.
Pleasepleaseplease stop.

I am currently involved in multiple arguments with multiple different people and instead of using the copy paste to get the correct quote(and I know you can view the posts at the bottom of the reply screen but if I do that I dont get the name of who posted it and green arrow thing that gives a link to the post)


Rogues are mostly mental-based charecters, just not in the magickal field of mental attributes.
There is no such thing as an old, stupid theif.

Charisma is the key ability for skills such as diplomacy, bluff, and disguise, something most rogues put ranks in. (Unless you're going for an all-out cat burgler). Charisma is a good thing to drop points in as a rogue, its simple, most rogues do it.

First of all what does being old have to do with mental attributes(refer to dirt farmer about wisdom (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0218.html))about the stupid you are right there is no stereotypical stupid rouge there is however the thug

[squidthingy]

Gah! Read On the Origin of PCs, people! It's all in there!

And if ya can't afford to and have to argue about Charisma, well, here's another head beating against the brick wall.

Haley likes to Bluff. Bluff is a Charisma-based skill. She is very good at Bluffing, and in fact, has max skill ranks in it for her level. Now, if I were building a rogue character that liked to Bluff, I would have a decent Charisma (at least a 12 or 14). Ergo, Haley has a Charisma of at least 12 or 14.

And bringing up Miko, she was a Paladin. Charisma is a very, very important stat for Paladins, because it affects their Divine Grace bonus to saving throws, the amount they can heal with Lay on Hands, and how much damage they do with Smite Evil. Ergo, Miko (like most paladins) had a decent Charisma of at least 12 or 14, possibly 16.

Samantha was a Sorcerer. Charisma is THE stat for Sorcerers; everything else is fluff. Given that she decimated Haley fairly easily, I'll say she was atleast level 8, and put her stat increases into Charisma. She probably had a Charisma of 20, or at least 18.

18 is higher than 14. Ergo, Samantha had a higher Charisma than Haley. Hence Elan's comment.

That is all.

I have already posted about that


the being persuasive part can be expalined, the main skills for this are bluff, diplomacy, and sense motive. sense motive has a wisdom mod so it has mothing to do with charisma, and haley has good sense motive as can be seen here. As for bluff and diplomacy skill points affect that more than the modifier, for example, person A(fighter) has 18 cha while person B(rouge) has 12 cha, assuming they both have 10 int(so the mod is +0) and put all points evenly split into bluff and diplomacy person A would have a mod of 4 for 1 and 5 for the other, while person B would have a mod of 5 for both

as for the part about miko, why?

that is all, punk

[Chronos]

And while we're at it, why does everyone keep assuming that Thog has a high strength? Sure, he was able to break out of the cell, but maybe that just means that he took a bunch of ranks in Knowledge (engineering), and was able to see where the weak points were and how to properly apply leverage? And yeah, he's really good in combat, but maybe that's just from his base attack bonus. Oh, and Int is his dump stat, but that doesn't mean that he necessarily put points into strength... Maybe Charisma or Wisdom is his high score. It could be the case, and therefore Occam's Razor tells us that we shouldn't necessarily assume that he's strong.

[TwistedCable]

I am currently involved in multiple arguments with multiple different people...

Reading this... That doesn't surprise me. You're arguing for the sake of arguing. It is repeatedly implied the Haley has a charisma bonus, and the 'all the party members with any charisma' flat out states it.

[holywhippet]

Durkon says he has a "low Charisma modifier." (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0200.html)

Here's some food for thought, though: If Roy and Durkon are both PCs, why should Charisma have any effect on Durkon's ability to communicate with Roy? o_O

If you think of it as a player controlling each character (which isn't the case) then think of it as each player roleplaying their character and not acting on outside knowledge.

Methinks that a neutral or chaotic character would make the best leader as they have less problems thinking outside of the box. Durkon is very lawful and would have trouble thinking about cunning ways of doing things.

[mockingbyrd7]

no i believe Mjoellnir was right about the agreement to not steal from party thing

btw where does it say haley has a high charisma, it says elan has an 18 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0028.html) but i don't remember anything about haley

It's not obvious to you that Haley has a good charisma? Although it's a D&D comic, a character doesn't literally have to say "I have high charisma" in order to obviously have high charisma. I mean, Roy has never said anything about strength, but he's obviously strong. Haley has never mentioned Dexterity or Charisma, but she's obviously dexterous and charismatic.

[lonewolf23k]

Getting back to the original question, while Durkon certainly knows how to take charge when push comes to shove, ultimately he's a Sergeant, not a Lieutenant. He prefers leaving the task of leading the troops to someone whom he feels is better qualified, and instead focuses his attention on covering everyone's butts.

Roy and Haley can take care of the big picture; Durkon takes care of the little details.

[squidthingy]

Reading this... That doesn't surprise me. You're arguing for the sake of arguing. It is repeatedly implied the Haley has a charisma bonus, and the 'all the party members with any charisma' flat out states it.

please if you haven't read the entire thread do so before you say things like these, I am not saying haley has a low charisma mod or no charisma mod, I am simply saying that we can't say that haley is second in command because she has a high charisma, please read quote



Haley is better at math for obvious reasons. Thats why she is in second in command

She also has high charisma, allowing her to be an effective leader.

no i believe Mjoellnir was right about the agreement to not steal from party thing

btw where does it say haley has a high charisma, it says elan has an 18 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0028.html) but i don't remember anything about haley

[squidthingy]

It's not obvious to you that Haley has a good charisma? Although it's a D&D comic, a character doesn't literally have to say "I have high charisma" in order to obviously have high charisma. I mean, Roy has never said anything about strength, but he's obviously strong. Haley has never mentioned Dexterity or Charisma, but she's obviously dexterous and charismatic.

yes but as has been previously said by me, I not saying that haley has a low or high or no charisma mod, I'm just saying we can't use that as a reason why haley is second in command

[squidthingy]

And while we're at it, why does everyone keep assuming that Thog has a high strength? Sure, he was able to break out of the cell, but maybe that just means that he took a bunch of ranks in Knowledge (engineering), and was able to see where the weak points were and how to properly apply leverage? And yeah, he's really good in combat, but maybe that's just from his base attack bonus. Oh, and Int is his dump stat, but that doesn't mean that he necessarily put points into strength... Maybe Charisma or Wisdom is his high score. It could be the case, and therefore Occam's Razor tells us that we shouldn't necessarily assume that he's strong.

What does that have to do with anything?!? Occum's Razor simply says assume as little as possible, your making assumtions about thog that don't need to be made, therefore going against occum's razor

[Chronos]

No, I'm not assuming anything about Thog. I didn't say that he does have Knowledge (engineering), or that he has a high Wis or Cha, only that he might. And therefore, we can't just assume that he has high strength.

In other words, exactly what you're saying about Haley. The fact is, though, while one can construct scenarios where Thog is weak, or where Haley is uncharismatic, and one can therefore not prove that they have high scores in those abilities, those scenarios are more complicated than just saying that they have high scores. So just as it's a reasonable inductive inference that Thog has high strength, so too it's a reasonable inference that Haley has high Charisma. It's not proven, but it's good enough that when someone asks "Why is Haley second-in-command", it's a good answer to say "Because she has better charisma than the others".

[squidthingy]

No, I'm not assuming anything about Thog. I didn't say that he does have Knowledge (engineering), or that he has a high Wis or Cha, only that he might. And therefore, we can't just assume that he has high strength.


In other words, exactly what you're saying about Haley

finally some gets that


The fact is, though, while one can construct scenarios where Thog is weak, or where Haley is uncharismatic, and one can therefore not prove that they have high scores in those abilities, those scenarios are more complicated than just saying that they have high scores. So just as it's a reasonable inductive inference that Thog has high strength, so too it's a reasonable inference that Haley has high Charisma. It's not proven, but it's good enough that when someone asks "Why is Haley second-in-command", it's a good answer to say "Because she has better charisma than the others".

no it's not, as has been previously dicussed. Occum's Razor says to not make unnessisary assumptions, we don't have to assume haley has a high charisma(that means it is unnessisary)because as I have said and quoted multiple times, Haley agrees not to steal from the party in exchange for the second-in-command position(on the origin of P.C's), which means there is an answer to "Why is haley second in command?" that makes no assumtions, if you apparently so many other people can not get this I will lay it out simpler

Question-"Why is Haley second-in-command?"

Answer A(no assumtions)-"She got this position in exchange for her agreeing not to steal from the party while they sleep"

Answer B(1 assumption)-"She has a better charisma than the others"

Occom's Razor(simply says)-use answer with least amount of assumptions

Conclusion-simple 0 is less than 1, use answer A


"Because she has better charisma than the others".

btw it says elan has an charisma of 18, haley cannot have higher because manyshot requres a dextarity of 17, for haley to have two skills than high is so unpractical that it cannot even be taken as a serious possiblility

[Blue_C.]

As to the original poster's question, as stated in "Origins"

It was Haley's very lack of seniority compared to Durkon that caused her to be the official second in command. Haley was seen as someone who could help balance Roy, where Durkon was more or less Roy's donkey.


First of all what does being old have to do with mental attributes(refer to dirt farmer about wisdom (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0218.html))about the stupid you are right there is no stereotypical stupid rouge there is however the thug

I believe the original argument, that one doesn't see an old, stupid thief, meant to say that stupid thieves don't survive to be old. This is an example of what I call "pretty arguments," as it sounds good but doesn't really hold up if you think about it for a few minutes, or in this case have seen more than a couple episodes of Cops.


I am currently involved in multiple arguments with multiple different people and instead of using the copy paste to get the correct quote(and I know you can view the posts at the bottom of the reply screen but if I do that I dont get the name of who posted it and green arrow thing that gives a link to the post)

I suggest either using multiple windows or tabbed browsing. I did it myself in fact writing this post. If you message a moderator, they might also have suggestions.

[TiamatRoar]

Quick note: Roy has good Charisma. The Giant said so when discussing the mindflayer's choice.

[UltimaGabe]

no it's not, as has been previously dicussed. Occum's Razor says to not make unnessisary assumptions, we don't have to assume haley has a high charisma(that means it is unnessisary)because as I have said and quoted multiple times, Haley agrees not to steal from the party in exchange for the second-in-command position(on the origin of P.C's), which means there is an answer to "Why is haley second in command?" that makes no assumtions, if you apparently so many other people can not get this I will lay it out simpler

Question-"Why is Haley second-in-command?"

Answer A(no assumtions)-"She got this position in exchange for her agreeing not to steal from the party while they sleep"

Answer B(1 assumption)-"She has a better charisma than the others"

Occom's Razor(simply says)-use answer with least amount of assumptions

Conclusion-simple 0 is less than 1, use answer A



btw it says elan has an charisma of 18 meaning haley cannot have higher because manyshot requres a charisma of 17, for haley to have two skills than high is so unpractical that it cannot even be taken as a serious possiblility

Okay.... first off: You're arguing just for the sake of arguing.

It's been established, from your original post (which has been quoted with spoiler tags many times) WHY Haley was 2nd-in-command. Nobody is debating that's why she was 2nd-in-command. However, people have stated a reason why she is a GOOD 2nd-in-command- that is, her good Charisma. Not a single person has said, "She's ONLY 2nd-in-command because of her Charisma. It has nothing to do with an agreement at all." All people are doing is backing up Roy's "agreement" with a reason why she's a good 2nd-in-command.

Seriously, you're making this argument WAY bigger than it needs to be. Do you think it's more mature or more prudent to continue to argue, or would it just be easier and more helpful on everyone's parts if you (and everyone else) simply said, "Okay."?

Haley is 2nd-in-command because of an agreement between Roy and herself in Origin of PCs. However, she is a GOOD 2nd-in-command because she has the brains and Charisma to do that job.

Now, everyone all at once:

"Okay."

[squidthingy]

GOOD 2nd-in-command because she has the brains and Charisma to do that job.

sorry but unless there's something in the origin of p.c's I have seen no evidence to support that(spoilers coming soon), let us review what haley has done after roys died.
1. told elan to stop fighting
2. made a near impossible shot relying on the fact that it was 'dramatic' to hit
3. got elan, durkon, belkar, and two soldiers to listen to her plan of running
4. come up with cunning plan involving elan's bardic illusions
5. argued with belkar about catapolts
6. come up with a plan involving disguiseing themselves as cheese


what haley could of done if she had(not saying she doesn't)a high charisma(and brains in the case of 2 and 6)

1. roused elan not to give up and keep fighting
2. organized the p.c's and any availiable soldiers to get to the castle before they got noticed and shot at
3. get elan, durkon, belkar, two soldiers, and hinjo to listen to her plan of running
4. alright that was a good plan, but it wouldn't of been neccisary if she had not made near impossible shot from 2
5. using diplomacy(cha based mod)convinced belkar to stop(like roy did when belkar wanted to kill elan)
6.come up with a plan that wouldn't get the p.c's eaten by hobbos


I suggest either using multiple windows or tabbed browsing. I did it myself in fact writing this post. If you message a moderator, they might also have suggestions.

thank you, someone offering help instead of critising everything

[Eva]

I can condense this argument:



She's hot. :smallwink:



(Yes, I know that's not really all it. But it was too easy.)

[Girdag]

Occum's Razor says to not make unnessisary assumptions, we don't have to assume haley has a high charisma(that means it is unnessisary)because as I have said and quoted multiple times, Haley agrees not to steal from the party in exchange for the second-in-command position(on the origin of P.C's), which means there is an answer to "Why is haley second in command?" that makes no assumtions, if you apparently so many other people can not get this I will lay it out simpler

Question-"Why is Haley second-in-command?"

Answer A(no assumtions)-"She got this position in exchange for her agreeing not to steal from the party while they sleep"

Answer B(1 assumption)-"She has a better charisma than the others"

Occom's Razor(simply says)-use answer with least amount of assumptions

Conclusion-simple 0 is less than 1, use answer A
NO-ONE IS ARGUING THAT! What we're arguing is whether Haley has a high Cha stat or not. Everyone agrees that Haley got the position that way (though, to be fair, that was probably through Bluffing, and ergo was related to her high Cha). What we're arguing about is your claim early on that there was no evidence for Haley having high Cha. Which there is (males of various different species finding her attractive, her high Bluff skill, V's 'all the members of the party with decent charisma'...

I registered a damn account because you were irritating me so much.

[squidthingy]

NO-ONE IS ARGUING THAT!

Actually if you read the first quote from the post of mine that you quoted, you might see that that was partually being argued


What we're arguing about is your claim early on that there was no evidence for Haley having high Cha. Which there is (males of various different species finding her attractive, her high Bluff skill, V's 'all the members of the party with decent charisma'...

I have yet to see evidence that :haley: has a high charisma, let's review the evidence that you give in your post

1. high bluff skill: as I said in my previously(see following quote)at higher levels bluff is affected more by skill points and not the charisma mod


the being persuasive part can be expalined, the main skills for this are bluff, diplomacy, and sense motive. sense motive has a wisdom mod so it has mothing to do with charisma, and haley has good sense motive as can be seen here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0046.html). As for bluff and diplomacy skill points affect that more than the modifier, for example, person A(fighter) has 18 cha while person B(rouge) has 12 cha, assuming they both have 10 int(so the mod is +0) and put all points evenly split into bluff and diplomacy person A would have a mod of 4 for 1 and 5 for the other, while person B would have a mod of 5 for both

2. V's 'all the members of the party with decent charisma': as I have said previously 'all' could have meant roy and elan

3. males of various different species finding her attractive: it would of been easier if I had a list but I will cover some of the more basic ones: goblin teen(he's a teenager with 10 int that thinks he can take advantage of haley), grand larcency guy(sleazy assassin out of prison), and elan(if elan had liked haley that much he would of done something in the first 399 comic's)

[squidthingy]

I registered a damn account because you were irritating me so much.That's actually kind of weird
cursed infidel, Banjhulhu smite him where he stands(or sits)

[blennus]

Personally I don't think that squidthingy is just arguing for the sake of arguing. He just has a mathematical mind, while everyone else seems to be more of an engineer type, leading to the erroneous conclusion that he is just arguing for the sake of it. Just my two cents. My opinion is that Haley has a moderately high Charisma score, but again it is just my opinion with no hard facts to back it up. While there seems to be some evidence pointing to that conclusion, it is more inductive than deductive. We cannot logically deduce that haley has High CHA simply from the online comics, though we can presume that she does.

[Chronos]

See, squidthingy, there are a number of facts in play here. First, Haley has many times been shown successfully using Charisma-based skills (and in the first such instance (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0008.html), she explicitly states that such success runs in her family). Second, she's widely recognized as being attractive (see even the character introduction page (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/ootscast.html), where it's said that her deadly aim is matched only by her beauty). Third, she's a member of the group Vaarsuvius described as "all of the members of the party with any charisma". Fourth, the party came to an agreement which put her second in command (yes, there was another side to the agreement, but why didn't they instead come to an agreement with Belkar, that he wouldn't kill them all in their sleep if they made him second?). One can come up with a large set of premises to explain all of these facts. Or, one can construct a single premise which simultaneously explains all of them. Occam's Razor tells us that we should accept the single premise which explains everything, instead of the large set of premises. And that single premise is that Haley has a pretty good Charisma.

[squidthingy]

thank you blennus, not only does that sum everything up but it also should be the end these arguements

nevermind apparently people are not done arguing, well, when in rome

[squidthingy]

See, squidthingy, there are a number of facts in play here. First, Haley has many times been shown successfully using Charisma-based skills (and in the first such instance (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0008.html), she explicitly states that such success runs in her family). Second, she's widely recognized as being attractive (see even the character introduction page (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/ootscast.html), where it's said that her deadly aim is matched only by her beauty). Third, she's a member of the group Vaarsuvius described as "all of the members of the party with any charisma". Fourth, the party came to an agreement which put her second in command (yes, there was another side to the agreement, but why didn't they instead come to an agreement with Belkar, that he wouldn't kill them all in their sleep if they made him second?). One can come up with a large set of premises to explain all of these facts. Or, one can construct a single premise which simultaneously explains all of them. Occam's Razor tells us that we should accept the single premise which explains everything, instead of the large set of premises. And that single premise is that Haley has a pretty good Charisma.

*sigh*

I am starting to get tired of arguing, so you people can argue amonst yourselves, oh wait, you can't because I was the only arguing on the oppisite side

[Girdag]

Basically, Chronos is right, in my opinion, and squidthingy needs to realise that if he's the only person on the other side of the argument, then there's a pretty good possibility that the majority are right.

EDIT: Also, why hide half your message in white text? It's not clever, it's not funny, it's just pointless.

[squidthingy]

there's a pretty good possibility that the majority are right.

I thought I was done arguing and then this comes up. fwi, the 'majority says it is right' is never an excuse for anything. The majority of people used to think everything revolved around the earth, heck galilao got killed for thinking against the majority.

[squidthingy]

Also, why hide half your message in white text

that time I did it people like you might think I gave up and leave me alone without actually giving up. So much for that plan, looks like I have to keep this up

[squidthingy]

First, Haley has many times been shown successfully using Charisma-based skills

As I have said before(I wonder how many times I have said that before) by the time you get to the levels that haley is at, skill points(8+int per level) count alot more than the mod. Considering haley has manyshot(requires a base attack bonus of +6) was can determine that she is at atleast 6th level. At 6th level haley would have been able to put 36 ranks into bluff, a 18 cha would have affected it as follows: 4/40=0.1 or 10%, while a 14 cha: 2/38=0.052 or about 5%. considering that cha would only count for about 5-10% of the total mod, I think is is safe to say that haley could be successful at said just as successful at Cha based skills with an average cha compared to a high charisma


(and in the first such instance (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0008.html), she explicitly states that such success runs in her family)

What does that have to do with a charisma based mod, it could even mean that since her dad was a theif since 1st edition she has learned that she doesn't need to focus on cha to be a successful rouge


Second, she's widely recognized as being attractive (see even the character introduction page (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/ootscast.html), where it's said that her deadly aim is matched only by her beauty)

Charisma measures a character’s force of personality, persuasiveness, personal magnetism, ability to lead, and physical attractiveness. This ability represents actual strength of personality, not merely how one is perceived by others in a social setting. Charisma is most important for paladins, sorcerers, and bards. It is also important for clerics, since it affects their ability to turn undead. Every creature has a Charisma score. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/theBasics.htm#charismaCha)

physical attractivness is only 1/5 of a character's charisma


Third, she's a member of the group Vaarsuvius described as "all of the members of the party with any charisma".

If you read this entire thread, you would know that that has not been successfully proven


Fourth, the party came to an agreement which put her second in command (yes, there was another side to the agreement, but why didn't they instead come to an agreement with Belkar, that he wouldn't kill them all in their sleep if they made him second?).

have you read origin of the p.c's, if so see \/, otherwise you cannot say this without completely understanding the situation where haley was made second in command


there was another side to the agreement

please clarify what this is I haven't read On the origin of P.C's


Occam's Razor tells us that we should accept the single premise which explains everything, instead of the large set of premises. And that single premise is that Haley has a pretty good Charisma.

Until you can disprove my previous statements about the flaws in your four reasons, I think it is fair to say that /\ quote no longer makes sense

[Studoku]

I am starting to get tired of arguing, so you people can argue amonst yourselves, oh wait, you can't because I was the only arguing on the oppisite side

We win :smalltongue:
Nevermind, you're still arguing.

By the way, what are we arguing about? Are we arguing about why Haley is leader or whether she has charisma?

[VanBuren]

one problem with your argument, the word 'almost', in English this means not all the time which means you are making unessicery assumptions when assuming that all means more than two(occum's razor) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occam's_Razor)

But you're making an assumption that "all" is being used in a way contrary to the way it is normally used. That is an unnecessary assumption, because there is no reason to think so.

[Tyrrell]

At 6th level haley would have been able to put 36 ranks into bluff, a 18 cha would have affected it as follows: 4/40=0.1 or 10%, while a 14 cha: 2/38=0.052 or about 5%. At sixth level Haley could have put nine ranks in to bluff, not 36.


Also further evidence for Haily being Hot (hotness being one of the many aspects of charisma) 259 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0259.html)

[Ladorak]

Wow, this is becoming a real battlefield... I'd like to open up a third front if I may:

Durkon is second in command. Haley may have the title but Durkon has the authority.

*Ducks*

[squidthingy]

We win :smalltongue:
Nevermind, you're still arguing.

By the way, what are we arguing about? Are we arguing about why Haley is leader or whether she has charisma?

please read entire thread


But you're making an assumption that "all" is being used in a way contrary to the way it is normally used. That is an unnecessary assumption, because there is no reason to think so.

no I was saying that 'all' means 'more that one', not 'more than two'

[squidthingy]

At sixth level Haley could have put nine ranks in to bluff, not 36

sorry, forgot how that works instead of refering to quote A, refer to quote B

QuoteA\/


by the time you get to the levels that haley is at, skill points(8+int per level) count alot more than the mod. Considering haley has manyshot(requires a base attack bonus of +6) was can determine that she is at atleast 6th level. At 6th level haley would have been able to put 36 ranks into bluff, a 18 cha would have affected it as follows: 4/40=0.1 or 10%, while a 14 cha: 2/38=0.052 or about 5%. considering that cha would only count for about 5-10% of the total mod, I think is is safe to say that haley could be successful at said just as successful at Cha based skills with an average cha compared to a high charisma

QuoteB\/


the being persuasive part can be expalined, the main skills for this are bluff, diplomacy, and sense motive. sense motive has a wisdom mod so it has mothing to do with charisma, and haley has good sense motive as can be seen here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0046.html). As for bluff and diplomacy skill points affect that more than the modifier, for example, person A(fighter) has 18 cha while person B(rouge) has 12 cha, assuming they both have 10 int(so the mod is +0) and put all points evenly split into bluff and diplomacy person A would have a mod of 4 for 1 and 5 for the other, while person B would have a mod of 5 for both


Also further evidence for Haily being Hot (hotness being one of the many aspects of charisma) 259 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0259.html)

I would like to point out that one of the hobgoblins did not find haley 'hot'

[VanBuren]

please read entire thread



no I was saying that 'all' means 'more that one', not 'more than two'

But that is the common usage of the word. All is almost always used to mean "more than two", which would make that definition used the majority of the time and since you are claiming that it follows the exception, and not the commonplace event, aren't you then making an assumption that is unnecessary?

The answer, I think, is yes.

[Hinotori]

I thought I was done arguing and then this comes up. fwi, the 'majority says it is right' is never an excuse for anything. The majority of people used to think everything revolved around the earth, heck galilao got kills for thinking against the majority.

By kills, do you mean frags? I'm wondering if "Galilao" was maybe a 1337 Counterstrike player.

Seriously, I'm poking my head in this topic just to point out that your interpretation of Occam's Razor is severely flawed. Haley's ability to bluff, her attractiveness, and the reference to "all" the members with decent charisma (the word "all", as everyone else has pointed out to you ad nauseum, is almost always used in reference to three or more people), all (see, like right here) seem to imply that Haley -probably- has a decent Charisma. Sure, it's possible that Haley does not, but Occam's Razor would clearly side with the majority against you.

As for the certain agreement in a certain book which won't be spoiled, yes, that's probably largely why she's second-in-command, but consider this: the party would likely -not- have been as willing to accept said agreement if she was not persuasive and charismatic.

You shouldn't consider it some kind of badge of honor that an overwhelming majority is arguing against you. Yes, every once in a while, the majority slips up, but anyone who's read Wisdom of Crowds, or, hell, watched an episode of Who Wants to Be a Millionaire? knows that it's never a good idea to bet against the crowd. Just some food for thought.

[chionophile]

Okay, let's look at this from another perspective. Squidthingy, you claim that Haley does not have a (moderately) high charisma modifier. Numerous posters have put forth evidence that she does have a decent charisma modifier and all you have done is argue that their evidence is flawed. Do you have any counter evidence? And a single hobgoblin not finding Haley attractive in a filler comic doesn't really count.

Additionally, I'd like to put forth comic 100 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0100.html) as further evidence for Haley's decent charisma score.

[T23]

please read entire thread

Better yet, please just take 2 minutes and summarize your argument. I understand that you want people to read the thread so that you don't have to repeat yourself, but it is really unclear what your point is. Half the time, you seemed to argue that "Haley is not charismatic", whereas the other half you seemed to argue that "Haley may or may not be charismatic, but ultimately it was inconsequential in her attainment of second-in-command (which was caused by an agreement)".

Now, if the former is what you are arguing than I have to wonder how closely you've been reading the comic. Other's have offered some substantial reasoning for why she is charismatic, but I have yet to see you offer an reasoning for why she isn't. What you have pointed out, is that it is possible she may not be charismatic through a variety of coincidences, but you have yet to provide evidence that she doesn't have a charisma modifier. In order to convince anyone, you need to prove your own point rather than just trying to disprove other's.

If the latter is your argument, well then you may be overlooking the fact that attributes in D&D affect all aspects of a PC's life. In the same way that intelligence is about more than performing knowledge checks, having a high charisma means more than making an occasional bluff or diplomacy check; it means that Haley is good at interacting with people in general. Given that this attribute comes into play every time Haley interacts with others, it is illogical to assume it had no role in her attaining her position.

If you are arguing some other point, please take the time to articulate it.

[Firestar27]

Will everyone please stop arguing?
Thank you.
Squidthingy, you want the Class and Levels Geekery thread II (I'd put a link if I had to time to find it). They rarely use assumptions and if they do, it is only after the same event has happened repeatedly.
Everyone else, you want the rest of the forum. Over there, people will put what they think based on their assumptions and evidence, with the hope that others will help them. There is less of the "no assumptions" over there.
And, I have an answer that we all can agree with:
Haley might have high charisma, and it is likely that she has high charisma, but we don't know for sure. So it is probable, but not definite.
Do not start arguing about my final answer.
Sorry about the sizes but I needed people to see it for sure.

[EntilZha]

While Thog has IN as the dump stat and certainly doesn't correspond to Roy in this aspect. How does your reasoning stand up to that? ;)

I recommend treating yourself to a copy of Dungeon Crawlin' Fools, if you've not already done so. Rich says quite clearly Thog is the opposite of Roy, because Roy breaks the stereotype of the dumb fighter and Thog is the poster boy for dumb fighters.

[Shatteredtower]

physical attractivness is only 1/5 of a character's charismaAccording to my can of ginger ale, the ingredients are:

carbonated water, sugar/glucose-fructose, citric acid, natural flavour, sodium benzoate, colour.

According to your claim, it's only 1/6th carbonated water.

Remind me to never let you anywhere near a kitchen. :smalltongue:

No two 15 Charismas are necessarily exactly alike. Samantha relies heavily on looks, with force of personality the main backer. Xykon's going almost entirely on force of personality, as was Miko. Haley's got a little in the looks department, a bit in the persuasive category, and a whole wardrobe full of personalities.

Let's go back to the mind flayer saw (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0031.html). Roy appears to have scored nicely on balance, beating out Mayor McV and the filling blandness of Durkon Ricebowl. Haley scores well on flavour, but is too sweet for the mind flayer's tastes.

We know that Intelligence is the main thing V had going for hir, which beat out Durkon's Wisdom. We know that Elan's Charisma wasn't sufficient to overcome the lack of substance in either Wisdom or Intelligence, while the lack of Wisdom and Charisma scored against Belkar -- yet he came across as one of the three meaty types.

High Wisdom alone is bland.
High Intelligence is appealing, but inadequately filling.
High Charisma is sweet without substance.

Haley's clearly more filling than Elan, but she's too sweet for his tastes. We know that Wisdom doesn't bring flavour to the equation. Intelligence does, but it doesn't appear to bring the sweetness.

The idea that meaty would equal more Intelligence than average would suggest that Belkar is one of the three most Intelligent members of the party, but that's not really too surprising when you think of how much he wants his skill points. (He hasn't exactly spent them intelligently, but that's a difference between the player and the character. :smallwink: )

It may even be that it's not so much that Haley is smarter than Belkar, so much as it is that Intelligence is the one thing he's got going for him (at least to the level of a +1 bonus), while Charisma overpowers her Wisdom and Intelligence. It may be that she's got positive modifiers in all three, but the Charisma is significantly bigger than the other two.

Sure, it's no proof, but what's the alternative working hypothesis? :smallwink:

By the way, please stop openly sharing spoilers from Origin of the PCs. I don't order things on line, so I have to wait a little longer for a copy to become available again.

[delguidance]

I think Chronos wins the arguement because he writes like someone with a higher charisma. The theory of Thog's low strength is hilarious.

Also Occam's razor is...

"All things being equal, the simplest solution tends to be the best one."

Why would the rest of the party agree to Haley's promise not to steal from them if she was second in command unless she had a high enough charisma to diplomacize or bluff them into it.

[Chronos]

Y'know, delguidance, I think that's the first time anyone's ever said that I have high Charisma. Thanks!

Quoth Firestar27:
Squidthingy, you want the Class and Levels Geekery thread II (I'd put a link if I had to time to find it). They rarely use assumptions and if they do, it is only after the same event has happened repeatedly.I'm not sure he does... The official estimate over there (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=4912) is that Haley has "Cha ≥12".

[delguidance]

Hey you might be a mix between an ugnaught and Eugene Levy, I'm just saying you write like someone who can be seen in public without a reference to dice on their shirt.

[The Familiar]

Haley is Second-in-Command for Two reasons:

Reason One:
As has been noted, in On the Origin of PCs "The others"--which based on Durkon standing next to Roy when he gets the news suggests Vaarsuvius, Elan and Belkar--decided that she, Haley, should be Second-in-Command. Those four--the new members to Roy's party of two (he and Durkon), decided the group should a voice of the "common person" to help temper Roy's bossy methods...according to Haley anyway.

Durkon was already willing to follow Roy and didn't need a fancy title just to be an advisor to him.

And Reason Two:
Plain and simply, she wanted the job. She promised "the others" she would not loot personal belongings (etc. etc.) if they agreed that she was the logical choice for the job. She was willing to give up the looting party members in the night option for a larger cut of party treasure--"to reflect my added responsibilities".

Overall, Durkon saw it as a good thing:
:durkon: "Bein' in a position o' authority gives her an investment in keep'in things runin' smoothlike".

So long as Durkon could have the leader's ear (first Roy's then Haley's) to dispense wise advice, there was--and is--no need for him to have a fancy title.

[Gandal]

Squidthingy loses the argument, end of story. Next!
(I recommend this topic be locked, the answer has been given and it's becoming a pointless argument :smallsigh: )

[David Argall]

A couple of additional pieces of information on Haley Charisma

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0035.html

Of course a couple of months without any women and the boys are not likely to be all that fussy, but it seems reasonable to assume something well worth looking at.

But...

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0066.html

It would seem Haley is no real outstanding beauty. We already have several cases where she is outshown. Well worth making a fool of yourself over, but there are plenty around who can at least rival her.

[VanBuren]

A couple of additional pieces of information on Haley Charisma

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0035.html

Of course a couple of months without any women and the boys are not likely to be all that fussy, but it seems reasonable to assume something well worth looking at.

But...

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0066.html

It would seem Haley is no real outstanding beauty. We already have several cases where she is outshown. Well worth making a fool of yourself over, but there are plenty around who can at least rival her.

That second one really shouldn't count. I mean, this is Thog. His views are horribly skewed. Like Tempts Fate of Goblins, he just probably wouldn't find human women attractive, regardless of their physical appeal.

[squidthingy]

Page three arguments


But that is the common usage of the word. All is almost always used to mean "more than two", which would make that definition used the majority of the time

Again the problem with this argument is the word 'almost', means not everytime. What I am simply saying is that even though all usually means 'more than two' is can mean 'more than one', since it can be used either way, we can't assume it means 'more than two' because is it "almost always" used in that manner


since you are claiming that it follows the exception, and not the commonplace event, aren't you then making an assumption that is unnecessary?

I am not saying it follows the exception, I saying it might follow the exception. 'All' may or may not mean 'more than one' or 'more than two' in this particular panel of the comic, we can't tell. and since we can't tell we also can't assume that it means either definition


Okay, let's look at this from another perspective. Squidthingy, you claim that Haley does not have a (moderately) high charisma modifier

NO no no no no no. I am not saying what haley's cha is(high, average, or low), I am saying we can't assume 'haley is second-in-command because she has a high charisma', haley is second-in-command because of a deal made with the party in the origin of p.c's


Numerous posters have put forth evidence that she does have a decent charisma modifier and all you have done is argue that their evidence is flawed. Do you have any counter evidence? And a single hobgoblin not finding Haley attractive in a filler comic doesn't really count.

Additionally, I'd like to put forth comic 100 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0100.html) as further evidence for Haley's decent charisma score.

I am going to answer the rest of this sentence by sentence

sentence 1: Yes that is all I have to do, by pointing out said possible flaws I am showing that we can't determine what haley's cha actually is, if we can't determine this than all the arguments about 'haley is second-in-command because of her high(or moderataly high) charisma' are made no longer plausible

sentence 2: as said in sentance 1 I don't need counter evidence

sentence 3: no all it proves is that that particular comic can't be used for evidence that haley has a good charisma score, which as I said in sentance 1 is all I have to prove

sentence 4: I have already responded to that particular comic, a teenager(the fact that he is a goblin is irrelivent) thinks he can take advantage of a 24 year old girl, regaurdless of charisma he would probaly do the same thing if haley had a high or average(possibly even low) charisma


Seriously, I'm poking my head in this topic just to point out that your interpretation of Occam's Razor is severely flawed. Haley's ability to bluff, her attractiveness, and the reference to "all" the members with decent charisma (the word "all", as everyone else has pointed out to you ad nauseum, is almost always used in reference to three or more people), all (see, like right here) seem to imply that Haley -probably- has a decent Charisma. Sure, it's possible that Haley does not, but Occam's Razor would clearly side with the majority against you

chronos said the exact same(I mean literaly, you reapeated chronos almost word for word) right there(follow link and read what he said to confirm this). the quote under chronos's is my response(mostly I wrote some other stuff too) to his(and now your) posts


...

...


By kills, do you mean frags? I'm wondering if "Galilao" was maybe a 1337 Counterstrike player

btw it is ridiculous to mention counterstrike on account of a typo(fixed now), I mean it's not really that good of a game


As for the certain agreement in a certain book which won't be spoiled, yes, that's probably largely why she's second-in-command, but consider this: the party would likely -not- have been as willing to accept said agreement if she was not persuasive and charismatic.

Or they could have accepted it because they weren't expecting roy to die


You shouldn't consider it some kind of badge of honor that an overwhelming majority is arguing against you. Yes, every once in a while, the majority slips up, but anyone who's read Wisdom of Crowds, or, hell, watched an episode of Who Wants to Be a Millionaire? knows that it's never a good idea to bet against the crowd. Just some food for thought.

I don't, I am not continuing to argue for the sake of said 'badge of honor', I am continuing to argue because I think I am right, and I will continue arguing until I am proven either right or wrong.

I actually think it's almost funny(in an almost ironic sort of way) that so many people(majority) is not able to prove one person(that's me) wrong. mabye it's because I'm not wrong, oh well who knows

Yes, every once in a while, the majority slips up, but anyone who's read Wisdom of Crowds, or, hell, watched an episode of Who Wants to Be a Millionaire? knows that it's never a good idea to bet against the crowd. Just some food for thought.

To start I would like to point out that the crowd is not always right in who wants to be a millionaire. I have not read 'Wisdom of the Clouds' but I was reading the wikipedia article and it says 'decisions that, he argues, are often better than could have been made by any single member of the group'. The word often caught my attention because it means the James Surowiecki admits that the crowd is not always right but is often right meaning that the crowd is wrong some of the time, this might be one of those cases.

[Glorfindel]

I am not saying what haley's cha is(high, average, or low), I am saying we can't assume 'haley is second-in-command because she has a high charisma', haley is second-in-command because of a deal made with the party in the origin of p.c'sThat may well be, but:

On the first page, you asked people to prove that Haley has a good charisma.

where are people getting the impression that haley has a good charisma(did I miss something)

Then, people provide three pages of facts that might or might not prove Haley has a good charisma, but at the very least make it highly probable.
While you are trying to find flaws in these reasonings. So, even if you don't do that intentionally, it seems that you are trying to prove that Haley has only average Charisma, contradicting your last post:
I am not saying what haley's cha is(high, average, or low)

P.S. And I forgot to add: Please stop writing in white, especially if it is not true.
I actually think it's almost funny(in an almost ironic sort of way) that so many people(majority) is not able to prove one person(that's me) wrong. mabye it's because I'm not wrong, oh well who knows

[squidthingy]

Better yet, please just take 2 minutes and summarize your argument. I understand that you want people to read the thread so that you don't have to repeat yourself

I would summarize if I could but I alone cannot summerize everything from this thread, let alone in two minutes. The thing is to summarize I would have to not just summarize what I have said(that's alot by itself) but summarize everyone else's points of view as well, sorry but if I am going to do that much typing it is going to be for a reason like arguing on the actual topic and not typing for the convience of other people(sorry to the other people, but would you summarize four pages of posts)


it is really unclear what your point is. Half the time, you seemed to argue that "Haley is not charismatic", whereas the other half you seemed to argue that "Haley may or may not be charismatic

My main point is as follows: " We can't determine Haley's Charisma so we can not use 'Haley has a high Charisma' as an answer to the question 'How come haley got seniority over Durkon?' ". So I guess it is the latter.


Now, if the former is what you are arguing than I have to wonder how closely you've been reading the comic. Other's have offered some substantial reasoning for why she is charismatic, but I have yet to see you offer an reasoning for why she isn't. What you have pointed out, is that it is possible she may not be charismatic through a variety of coincidences, but you have yet to provide evidence that she doesn't have a charisma modifier. In order to convince anyone, you need to prove your own point rather than just trying to disprove other's

Even though it is more closely related to the later I will comment on the former. I believe it will be easier to answer this paragraph sentence by sentence so that I don't have to quote each sentence individually

1. closely enough to see that it is implied that she might have a fairly good charisma but also closely enough to notice that there is no real evidence of this fairly good charisma so it cannot be proven

2. Simply I don't have to(see my quote from this thread \/)

Yes that is all I have to do, by pointing out said possible flaws I am showing that we can't determine what haley's cha actually is, if we can't determine this than all the arguments about 'haley is second-in-command because of her high(or moderataly high) charisma' are made no longer plausible

3(before comma). Yes and as I said earlier(see quote/\) that is all I have to do

3(after comma) and 4. this I cannot respond to because this paragraph relates to something that is not directly related to my point


If the latter is your argument, well then you may be overlooking the fact that attributes in D&D affect all aspects of a PC's life. In the same way that intelligence is about more than performing knowledge checks, having a high charisma means more than making an occasional bluff or diplomacy check; it means that Haley is good at interacting with people in general. Given that this attribute comes into play every time Haley interacts with others, it is illogical to assume it had no role in her attaining her position

I am not saying haley's charisma had no part in getting her the postion of SIC I am saying that it played a subtle and miniscule part and not a major part so it can not be said that 'Haley got the position of second-in-command because of her charisma'. I believe that if Haley had a 10 or 12 or 14 or 16 or even 18 charisma with the same personality she would still recieved the position of SIC reguardless of her charisma

[squidthingy]

That may well be, but:

On the first page, you asked people to prove that Haley has a good charisma

I did this because they were saying(see quote) that haley had a high charisma


She also has high charisma


Then, people provide three pages of facts that might or might not prove Haley has a good charisma, but at the very least make it highly probable.
While you are trying to find flaws in these reasonings. So, even if you don't do that intentionally, it seems that you are trying to prove that Haley has only average Charisma, contradicting your last post

I am trying to that Haley's charisma(whatever it is) cannot be proven. Since it cannot be proven the answer 'Haley has a high charisma' cannot be used to answer the question 'how come haley got seniority over Durkon?'

[squidthingy]

Will everyone please stop arguing?

Why, if you don't like the arguing, don't come to this thread, no one is forcing this thread on you so if you don't like the arguing I respectively say 'go away'

[Glorfindel]

Come on, if you read the entire thread (I did it), you'll see that 90% of the posts is arguing whether or not Haley has a high Charisma (the other 10% are about arguing in general). The discussion is not about 'how come haley got seniority over Durkon?'. That question is answered by OtOoPCs. And that question is only addressed in the first few posts.

At this point, the majority of the posters is trying to convince you that Haley has a high(er than average) Charisma, and you are trying to convince the other posters than it is not so.

[squidthingy]

Come on, if you read the entire thread (I did it), you'll see that 90% of the posts is arguing whether or not Haley has a high Charisma (the other 10% are about arguing in general). The discussion is not about 'how come haley got seniority over Durkon?'. That question is answered by OtOoPCs. And that question is only addressed in the first few posts.

Then it was answered again with 'haley has a high charisma', I am arguing that is wrong while everyone else it arguing that is is right


At this point, the majority of the posters is trying to convince you that Haley has a high(er than average) Charisma, and you are trying to convince the other posters than it is not so.

First of all, I am saying we can't determine haley's cha not that it is low. and it does relate to this thread

[Dalenthas]

Squidthingy, you're making several false assumptions about the usage of Occam's Razor.
Occam's Razor says the simplest solution that fits all of the data is usually right.
It does not say that we can't make any assumptions, contrarily, not only can we make assumptions, but we should, but we should make the simplest assumptions. Assuming V meant "Elan, Haley, and Roy", is a simpler assumption than assuming s/he meant "Elan and Roy", therefore it is probably correct.
I can go down your list of arguments individually if you'd like.

Also, maybe (from your point of view) the majority can't prove you wrong because you have a preset notion that you are right and are unwilling to consider any evidence to the contrary? And that white text is really annoying and poor forum ettiquette (especially since you tend to hide insults in there).

[T23]

I am not saying haley's charisma had no part in getting her the postion of SIC I am saying that it played a subtle and miniscule part and not a major part so it can not be said that 'Haley got the position of second-in-command because of her charisma'. I believe that if Haley had a 10 or 12 or 14 or 16 or even 18 charisma with the same personality she would still recieved the position of SIC reguardless of her charisma

For those reading, I think this is a very well articulated summary of Squidthingy's argument. A lot of the time, this thread got side-tracked and discusses what Haley's charisma actually is, but I think this was squidthingy's original point.

And I have to say, I have no beef with this line of reasoning. It's well thought out.

[TheNovak]

So then the entire argument is moot, because On the Origin of PCs explicity states why she's second-in-command. And Durkon even explicitly supports the idea. And Squidthingy has explicity said that he read the book. So this whole, four-page excersize in headbutting a wall was sparked by saying, "I know why, but here's another possible reason!"

The Internet, ladies and gentlemen.

[squidthingy]

So this whole, four-page excersize in headbutting a wall was sparked by saying, "I know why, but here's another possible reason!"

I not sure exactly what your refering to but if the other 'possible reason' you are refering to the 'haley is SIC because of her CHA' than I would like to congratulate you on being the first person to understand that. If you are refering to my 'haley is SIC because of the argreement' than I am confused because that makes no sense

[Studoku]

She also has high charisma, allowing her to be an effective leader.

It seems my post started this so sorry about causing this mess by giving squidthingy an excuse to argue.
By the way, I'm not saying the charisma was the reason for her second in command position (I assumed it contributed to it because I hadn't read origin of PCs). I'm just saying it helps her be an effective leader.

By high charisma, I mainly meant higher charisma than Durkon, although I do think, for many of the reasons given in this thread, that Haley's charisma is above average.

[squidthingy]

It seems my post started this so sorry about causing this mess by giving squidthingy an excuse to argue

actually the excuse to argue was given to me by the countless people who argued back


By the way, I'm not saying the charisma was the reason for her second in command position (I assumed it contributed to it because I hadn't read origin of PCs). I'm just saying it helps her be an effective leader

In that case please refer to the following quote \/



GOOD 2nd-in-command because she has the brains and Charisma to do that job.

sorry but unless there's something in the origin of p.c's I have seen no evidence to support that(spoilers coming soon), let us review what haley has done after roys died.
1. told elan to stop fighting
2. made a near impossible shot relying on the fact that it was 'dramatic' to hit
3. got elan, durkon, belkar, and two soldiers to listen to her plan of running
4. come up with cunning plan involving elan's bardic illusions
5. argued with belkar about catapolts
6. come up with a plan involving disguiseing themselves as cheese


what haley could of done if she had(not saying she doesn't)a high charisma(and brains in the case of 2 and 6)

1. roused elan not to give up and keep fighting
2. organized the p.c's and any availiable soldiers to get to the castle before they got noticed and shot at
3. get elan, durkon, belkar, two soldiers, and hinjo to listen to her plan of running
4. alright that was a good plan, but it wouldn't of been neccisary if she had not made near impossible shot from 2
5. using diplomacy(cha based mod)convinced belkar to stop(like roy did when belkar wanted to kill elan)
6.come up with a plan that wouldn't get the p.c's eaten by hobbos

[David Argall]

That second one really shouldn't count. I mean, this is Thog. His views are horribly skewed. Like Tempts Fate of Goblins, he just probably wouldn't find human women attractive, regardless of their physical appeal.

Thog is hardly strong evidence, but he needed a cooties shot before dealing with Roy's hot [& of course human] sister, so it is still evidence that we can't put a really high charisma on Haley.

[dehro]

ye gods...I guess that'll teach me not to ask simple questions and think I'll get a simple answer.

frankly, I don't give a bucketfull of horsepiss if haley has or hasn't got a high charisma.. and feel that the whole question is massively off topic, since I got the answers I was looking for, and the sources for these are other than speculation and sophistry.

thanks to those who have answered the original question (and with a simple answer...)

[squidthingy]

That second one really shouldn't count. I mean, this is Thog. His views are horribly skewed. Like Tempts Fate of Goblins, he just probably wouldn't find human women attractive, regardless of their physical appeal.

Yet people use the hobogoblin or teen goblin as evidence

[DragonTounge]

Haley outranks Durkon because she's not weighed down by any clerical duty's. Durkon has proven twice that he'd rather watch he's friends get knocked around than defy "the will of Thor" which happened to be just a coincidence. The Order of the Stick needs someone who they can rely to help them in a fight even if the leader thinks its wrong.

[shaddy_24]

OK, I understand Haley is second in command because of something from OotPCs. It was in the second post, so many people have read it (in fact, all should have). So why do you keep saying they are arguing that Haley got her position because of high charisma? Even after someone says that they aren't saying that? They are simply saying they think she would do a good job because they think she has high charisma. And she probably does have above average charisma. She probably has a higher than average charisma because you choose skills based on what you have a good modifier in (even if it is a +1 or even a +0). You rarely choose it in what you have penalties. And Haley has a lot of skill points invested in charisma based skills, so she wouldn't gimp herself on it. So Haley probably has at least 10 charisma. I'd bet on a slightly higher number, simply because: it may only be a +1-2, but that is still a better chance to succeed. And a 12-13 is above average, because 10-11 is the average. The score doesn't need to be high, just above average.

[squidthingy]

OK, I understand Haley is second in command because of something from OotPCs. It was in the second post, so many people have read it (in fact, all should have). So why do you keep saying they are arguing that Haley got her position because of high charisma? Even after someone says that they aren't saying that?

I assume you are refering to Stu42, you are correct then but he was not the only one to say haley got it because of a high charisma. the following is a quote where some other person said she got it becuase of a high charisma \/


Even without the Origin of PCs/Linear Guild arguments, Haley is the only member other than Roy to have both good Intelligence and Charisma. She's a natural choice as second-in-command.


And she probably does have above average charisma. She probably has a higher than average charisma because you choose skills based on what you have a good modifier in (even if it is a +1 or even a +0). You rarely choose it in what you have penalties. And Haley has a lot of skill points invested in charisma based skills, so she wouldn't gimp herself on it.

From my experience you chose skills based on what fits your character not what happens to be a high ability. Let's say you are a sorcerer but the party face in your party is a bard, would you put points in A)bluff even though one of your party members already has points in it and will be doing the speaking and all the speaking related rolls or B) a skill that you would use and that would help your character like knowledge(arcana), spellcraft, or concentration.


So Haley probably has at least 10 charisma. I'd bet on a slightly higher number, simply because: it may only be a +1-2, but that is still a better chance to succeed. And a 12-13 is above average, because 10-11 is the average. The score doesn't need to be high, just above average.

even though a 12-13 is above average it is still not exectional enough to get her the position of SIC

[Shades of Gray]

my reasoning has said nothing about ability scores, it mentions titles examples are as follows

roy(good melee fighter) to thog(evil melee fighter)
belkar(good(modertally) tracker) to yikyik(evil tracker)
durkon(good spiritual advisor(cleric))to hilgya(evil spiritual advisor(cleric))
Vaarsuvious(good spellcaster) to Zz'drit(evil spellcaster(team wizard))
Haley(good melee ranged/second-in-command) to Sabine(evil melee ranged/second-in-command)
and
elan(good twin) to nale(evil twin)

;P

Ahem, problems with your post. A: Belkar is evil and yikyik is neutral or good I'd say. B: Hilgaya was a good guy, she was sent by Loki to stop Nale. C: Sabine is a melee rogue.

[Gooba]

even though a 12-13 is above average it is still not exectional enough to get her the position of SIC

Well let's look at the Order.

Roy is the leader, and it seems likely from the mind-flayer encounter that his CHA is 14. It's likely to be at least 12.

Elan has the highest CHA, and probably by at least 4 points. But his stupidity disqualifies him from command.

We know that Durkon, V and Belkar have no charisma bonus, and V and possibly Belkar have penalties.

So, given that Haley has a CHA of at least 12 in all likelihood, and I would say probably 14 in fact, she is the obvious choice for a 2-in-c.

Belkar's too evil. Elan's too stupid. V completely lacks the necessary charisma. Only Durkon is a candidate to supplant Hayley. Yet though he is certainly wise, he shows no evidence of being cleverer than Hayley. And in fact it is likely that she has an INT of 12 because various thief abilities would benefit. So she's bright enough and she's got a bit of charisma to make people more inclined to accept her and follow her. Further, her advanced communications skills are an asset for a leader. Durkon lacks these. Hayley's not a great leader but she's the best of the OotS except for Roy.

[ralphmerridew]

Squidthingy:

A person has a 100 sided die. He rolls it 10 times and gets 42 on five of those rolls. Using Occam's razor, what do you think is more likely:

Hypothesis 1: The die is fair.

Hypothesis 2: The die is loaded.

[dehro]

Squidthingy:

A person has a 100 sided die. He rolls it 10 times and gets 42 on five of those rolls. Using Occam's razor, what do you think is more likely:

Hypothesis 1: The die is fair.

Hypothesis 2: The die is loaded.

since there is no mathematical proof for any of the two hypotesis and therefore it's impossible to give more "validity" or more likeliness to the second one, both hypotesis are still valid. (no, common sense is not a mathematical value and suspicion alone is not a cryteria for occam's razor)

unless you can mathematically demonstrate that "probably" (certainty would put the razor out of the field for not being usefull anymore), the die is loaded, then, again...both hypotesis remain valid.

but this is an OT within an OT...things are getting to the point where someone with a big stick will come chasing us for inapropriate use of the forum..I think

[squidthingy]

Ahem, problems with your post. A: Belkar is evil and yikyik is neutral or good I'd say. B: Hilgaya was a good guy, she was sent by Loki to stop Nale. C: Sabine is a melee rogue.

As has been said before the oppisite in the Belkar vs. yikyik thing would be halfling vs. kobold. Hilgya (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0074.html) was evil she was send by loki to steal the talisman from nale not stop nale from getting(6th panel). No as seen by the crossbow sabine (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0044.html) was meant to appear as a ranged character

[squidthingy]

Belkar's too evil.

true dat


Elan's too stupid.

Elan may be considered "stupid" but refer to the comic (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0397.html) after he became a dashing swordsman, he seems to have no problem taking charge in the battle, subdueing both thog and nale simotaniously


V completely lacks the necessary charisma

The only way charisma effects being a leader is for gathering followers, and considering the SIC would not have to do that I don't see Charisma as relevent


people more inclined to accept her and follow her

No matter who the SIC would be, the party would follow them regaurdless because the leader gave them the position of SIC and by following the SIC the party would be following the leader


Further, her advanced communications skills are an asset for a leader

no they are an assest for a 'party face'


Hayley's not a great leader but she's the best of the OotS except for Roy.

Actually I think V would make the best SIC while haley might make the best 'party face', more likely elan though, it depends how many points he sunk into bluff, diplomacy, and sense motive

[squidthingy]

took me a while to get to this one, shatteredtower argues well
According to my can of ginger ale, the ingredients are:

carbonated water, sugar/glucose-fructose, citric acid, natural flavour, sodium benzoate, colour.

According to your claim, it's only 1/6th carbonated water.

Remind me to never let you anywhere near a kitchen. :smalltongue:

can't decide, this is either: ridiculus yet mildly amusing or cryptic yet vaguely philosophical


No two 15 Charismas are necessarily exactly alike. Samantha relies heavily on looks, with force of personality the main backer. Xykon's going almost entirely on force of personality, as was Miko. Haley's got a little in the looks department, a bit in the persuasive category, and a whole wardrobe full of personalities.

I am just going to ignore this statement for now because I don't see how it fits into the conversation


The idea that meaty would equal more Intelligence than average would suggest that Belkar is one of the three most Intelligent members of the party, but that's not really too surprising when you think of how much he wants his skill points.

Or consider this alternate hypothosis: if belkar had a higher INT than wouldn't more skill points be more torwards the bottom of his list of wants. I mean think about it, he gets (6+INT) for skill points, the second highest out of any class(behind rouge), if belkar had a good int than he would get alot of skill points compared to other classes. So if he wanted more skill points it would be out of selfessness not high intellegent


By the way, please stop openly sharing spoilers from Origin of the PCs. I don't order things on line, so I have to wait a little longer for a copy to become available again.

Sorry but do you have any idea how hypocritical that is. You complain about Origin of the PC's spoilers, yet in your post their are various spoilers about the online comic

[squidthingy]

No reply in three days?? does this mean i won??

[dehro]

No reply in three days?? does this mean i won??

maybe...or maybe people just got bored about the whole thing

[squidthingy]

maybe...or maybe people just got bored about the whole thing

sooo that means I win by default

[dish]

For five pages this thread consists of squidthingy vs everyone else.
Everyone else offer a huge variety of reasons explaining how squidthingy's logic is flawed, but all their evidence is disregarded or dismissed.

Squidthingy gets no reply for three days. According to Ockham's Razor, which reason do you think is the correct one?

a) Squidthingy has won the argument. We all bow down in wonder at his masterful debating skills and high charisma score.

b) It's no fun arguing with someone who's convinced he's always right. We've all gone off to something more interesting instead.

(Except, of course, I'm still here. No life. Sigh.)