Ring of force shield vs breath weapon

[Scottlang]

Does a ring of force shield stop or block breath weapon completely?? Ie a sea drake used it's breath weapon against a party and one of them has a ring of force shield is he hit by the lighting or protect against it...

[CharonsHelper]

No - the ring of force shield is used just like a heavy shield except for where it specifically varies. The only shield that can stop a breath weapon is a tower shield, and then only when prepped for it.

(That sort of thing is what makes the 3.5 tower shield awesome. I've shut down a blue dragon's breath weapon entirely with a tower shield in cover mode and using readied actions to move in front of the breath weapon while my buddies shoot it.)

But heavy shields don't do that.

[Darrin]

Does a ring of force shield stop or block breath weapon completely?? Ie a sea drake used it's breath weapon against a party and one of them has a ring of force shield is he hit by the lighting or protect against it...

No.

The ring of force shield provides an AC bonus, but that doesn't provide any protection against area effects such as breath weapons. I'm not sure what sea drake you're referring to (Monster Manual? Page number?), but most area effects, such as breath weapons, involve a Reflex save to determine if the target took the full force of the effect or managed to avoid/deflect some of it. A higher AC doesn't really help with your saving throws against area effects.

[Aletheides]

What they said.

In the fluff description, they describe it as putting up a small Wall of Force--but crunch it as an instant-on, instant-off heavy shield, with no other bonus. Pretty weak, for a defensive force effect.

They should have used a less misleading description. :smallannoyed:

[Manyasone]

No - the ring of force shield is used just like a heavy shield except for where it specifically varies. The only shield that can stop a breath weapon is a tower shield, and then only when prepped for it.

(That sort of thing is what makes the 3.5 tower shield awesome. I've shut down a blue dragon's breath weapon entirely with a tower shield in cover mode and using readied actions to move in front of the breath weapon while my buddies shoot it.)

But heavy shields don't do that.

You do realize that the tower shield, unless immune to elemental damage, will be be obliterated after the first blast of dragon breath...

[Necroticplague]

You do realize that the tower shield, unless immune to elemental damage, will be be obliterated after the first blast of dragon breath...

Objects take significantly reduced damage from elemental attacks. 1st off, as an attended object (you're carrying it), you could save to have the shield take half damage. Then, electricity does half damage to the shield. Then, whatever is remaining is reduced by hardness.

[CharonsHelper]

Objects take significantly reduced damage from elemental attacks. 1st off, as an attended object (you're carrying it), you could save to have the shield take half damage. Then, electricity does half damage to the shield. Then, whatever is remaining is reduced by hardness.

Indeed. It wouldn't work too well if you just have a normal tower shield against a CR 12 blue dragon whose breath weapon averages 45 damage (though even that would need to roll well above average to destroy it in one shot - I would actually argue that using it for full cover to stop the breath weapon gives up any chance of a saving throw) but if it's a primary piece of gear it'd be +3 or so enchantment by then (boosting hardness & hp), and likely made out of a special material of some sort (by RAW not mithril - but if you look at weights it'd be lighter than normal wood, and weight is the reason the tower shield can't be steel).

[Psyren]

It won't work with the ring, but with a real light or heavy shield, the Equipment Tricks "Little Wall" and "Shield Gag" can be used to help protect you against breath weapons.

[Fouredged Sword]

There is some real weirdness as far as cover and tower shields go. It grants cover to you. This cover grants you several bonuses as it comes to reflex saves. The shield gets the same bonuses you do as yo are wielding it. Here is the weird thing. Total cover is improved cover. This means that if for some reason you are forced to make a reflex save despite the cover, you get +4 to your reflex save and have improved evasion.

This means a tower shield grants itself improved evasion, so half damage on a failed save and no damage on a save. It also adds it's enhancement bonus to the save.

This means on a successful save, the shield takes no damage. On a failed save, the shield takes breath weapon/4-hardness damage. Now, the material a tower shield is made from is irrelevent. It is listed as having 5 hardness and 20hp.

Lets say you are a level 14 fighter facing an adult blue dragon. You want to be as irritating as possible and are holding a gap the dragon cannot enter itself. It is forced to blast you with it's breath weapon until you die.

You have a +3 tower shield (magic vestments) and a +4 reflex save. The dragon has a 12D8 DC 25 breath weapon. Your average save is 10 +3 (enhancement bonus) +4 (your Base save)+4(improved cover) and maybe +3 (resistance cloak)

You ignore roughly half the breath weapon attacks entirely. The ones that get through deal 54 damage each. That damage is cut by a factor of 4 to 13.5. This is further reduced by hardness (5+6) to about 2-3 damage a hit. Your shield has 50hp. The math turns out really funny with you ignoring roughly 75% of the attacks entirely and watching that one really good damage roll do significant damage. Still, even if the dragon rolls as well as it possibly can, your shield will hold for 3 rounds and break on the 4th allowing the breath weapon to hit you and everyone past you (if your shield breaks, the attack continues through). That's the dragon rolling max damage and you not failing a save. Each breath attack can do a maximum of 13 damage to your shield.
The dragon is going to take quite a while to break through your shield.

[Psyren]

Now, the material a tower shield is made from is irrelevent. It is listed as having 5 hardness and 20hp.

This is incorrect - the material does matter. The figures you cite come from "Table: Common Armor, Weapon, and Shield Hardness and Hit Points." These numbers assume typical materials for the item in question (hence the qualifier "common.") An adamantine tower shield would use the much higher hardness of adamantine (20) and the HP would increase by at least 1/3 (steel is 30hp/inch of thickness, while adamantine is 40hp/inch). This makes it much harder for the dragon's breath to break through your shield if it is made of such a material.

[Fouredged Sword]

This is incorrect - the material does matter. The figures you cite come from "Table: Common Armor, Weapon, and Shield Hardness and Hit Points." These numbers assume typical materials for the item in question (hence the qualifier "common.") An adamantine tower shield would use the much higher hardness of adamantine (20) and the HP would increase by at least 1/3 (steel is 30hp/inch of thickness, while adamantine is 40hp/inch). This makes it much harder for the dragon's breath to break through your shield if it is made of such a material.

I was referring to the debate about the debate about the material of a common tower shield and what it's hardness should be. Those values are listed, abet in a weird place (the exploration page, really?).

Enhancement bonus, special materials, and spells can greatly shift the numbers. The hardness spell will at least add 5 to the hardness, meaning the dragon must roll in the top 75% of it's damage range to deal damage. With the curve of a 12d8 die pool, this is much less likely than the 1/4 chance it looks like at first glance.

I'm not sure you can make a tower shield out of Adamantine though. The hardness listed in the breaking table suggests it is normal built from wood (hardness 5). An adamantine shield must be one normally built from metal. Dragonhide has a hardness 10 and is a solid option. Cheap too, as it merely costs double the masterwork cost.

[Psyren]

I know the page they came from. You said "the material the tower shield is made from is irrelevant" - I was pointing out that this isn't the case, it has a big impact on your numbers if the breath weapon cannot harm the shield at all. You concluded for instance that the shield "holds for 3 rounds" but for a small price increase you can have a shield that holds against that dragon practically indefinitely.

[Fouredged Sword]

I know the page they came from. You said "the material the tower shield is made from is irrelevant" - I was pointing out that this isn't the case, it has a big impact on your numbers if the breath weapon cannot harm the shield at all. You concluded for instance that the shield "holds for 3 rounds" but for a small price increase you can have a shield that holds against that dragon practically indefinitely.

My language didn't convey what I intended to. My point was to consider the typical tower shield. You buy it masterwork at level 3 and keep it with your character throughout the whole campaign, even when the DM tries to drown you with that boat adventure while you are still level 6 and your ACP to swim checks is -32.

It could even be the non-masterwork tower shield you find the week before the dragon attack that you have yet to sell. Hardening is a "free" spell for downtime wizards past level 11. Magic vestments can supply the enhancement bonus.

It's a niche tactic really only viable VS one type of attack, but it's an attack you can predict when you go fight dragons, and cheep enough to be worth doing even if you throw out the shield as soon as you are done.

[Mr Adventurer]

There's a steel tower shield in Races of Stone, I think

[Manyasone]

There's a steel tower shield in Races of Stone, I think
I checked, it be true.
Brings off course the other debate. Wooden shields would take full damage from heat and cold. Metal from electricity and acid.
For instance, a lot depends on your DM on his interpretation.

[Mr Adventurer]

You could also make a metal shield from mithril (for reduced weight and ACP) or adamantine (to make it practically indestructible).

[elonin]

Two things. Unless the shield is being sundered then it doesn't take damage unless the wielder rolls a 1 to save being attended. There is also a strange rules interaction in which the tower shield provides cover for itself (it provides cover but being equipment also gets cover).

[ericgrau]

There is some real weirdness as far as cover and tower shields go. It grants cover to you. This cover grants you several bonuses as it comes to reflex saves. The shield gets the same bonuses you do as yo are wielding it. Here is the weird thing. Total cover is improved cover. This means that if for some reason you are forced to make a reflex save despite the cover, you get +4 to your reflex save and have improved evasion.

This means a tower shield grants itself improved evasion, so half damage on a failed save and no damage on a save. It also adds it's enhancement bonus to the save.

This means on a successful save, the shield takes no damage. On a failed save, the shield takes breath weapon/4-hardness damage. Now, the material a tower shield is made from is irrelevent. It is listed as having 5 hardness and 20hp.

Lets say you are a level 14 fighter facing an adult blue dragon. You want to be as irritating as possible and are holding a gap the dragon cannot enter itself. It is forced to blast you with it's breath weapon until you die.

You have a +3 tower shield (magic vestments) and a +4 reflex save. The dragon has a 12D8 DC 25 breath weapon. Your average save is 10 +3 (enhancement bonus) +4 (your Base save)+4(improved cover) and maybe +3 (resistance cloak)

You ignore roughly half the breath weapon attacks entirely. The ones that get through deal 54 damage each. That damage is cut by a factor of 4 to 13.5. This is further reduced by hardness (5+6) to about 2-3 damage a hit. Your shield has 50hp. The math turns out really funny with you ignoring roughly 75% of the attacks entirely and watching that one really good damage roll do significant damage. Still, even if the dragon rolls as well as it possibly can, your shield will hold for 3 rounds and break on the 4th allowing the breath weapon to hit you and everyone past you (if your shield breaks, the attack continues through). That's the dragon rolling max damage and you not failing a save. Each breath attack can do a maximum of 13 damage to your shield.
The dragon is going to take quite a while to break through your shield.
Total cover is not improved cover, it's better. You can't be hit at all with total cover. Actually the definition of total cover is basically a wall: i.e., total cover is anything that stops line of effect. That's why the FAQ on tower shields says it is in a certain edge of your square even though creatures don't have facing. It is basically a wall which means it exists in a specific location and prevents anything from passing through that location.

Improved cover is for arrow slits and so on which barely let something through. Then you get +8 AC, +4 to reflex saves and improved evasion, because you can still be hit but it's super difficult. With total cover you can't be hit at all.

And then to extend it to the shield... well since this is off to begin with I shouldn't get into that. I think you're use "partway RAW" to do some weird things.

[Fouredged Sword]

Total cover is not improved cover, it's better. You can't be hit at all with total cover. Actually the definition of total cover is basically a wall: i.e., total cover is anything that stops line of effect. That's why the FAQ on tower shields says it is in a certain edge of your square even though creatures don't have facing. It is basically a wall which means it exists in a specific location and prevents anything from passing through that location.

Improved cover is for arrow slits and so on which barely let something through. Then you get +8 AC, +4 to reflex saves and improved evasion, because you can still be hit but it's super difficult. With total cover you can't be hit at all.

And then to extend it to the shield... well since this is off to begin with I shouldn't get into that. I think you're use "partway RAW" to do some weird things.

Fully RAW is even wierder. Full RAW tends to go in the direction that the shied, as an attended item, doesn't take damage unless you roll a 1 on a save. It also provided total cover, preventing you from needing to make a save in the first place. This means the shield blocks 100% of breath weapon damage with no chance of failure and taking zero damage itself.

[ericgrau]

Fully RAW is even wierder. Full RAW tends to go in the direction that the shied, as an attended item, doesn't take damage unless you roll a 1 on a save. It also provided total cover, preventing you from needing to make a save in the first place. This means the shield blocks 100% of breath weapon damage with no chance of failure and taking zero damage itself.

That's fully over-literal RAW saying "You don't take damage when you have total cover" and "If you have total cover then what you carry also has total cover" therefore "The tower shield prevents you from taking damage and therefore prevents itself from taking damage".

That isn't actually RAW, just over-literal RAW and selective over-literal RAW at that. The actual definition of total cover is not having line of effect and this is why damage will not pass through. But damage may still destroy the interposing barrier. And this is what causes everything else, not the other way around. You could try to make a RAW argument that it is the other way around, but this is at best only one possible interpretation of RAW and regardless it isn't RAI.

Or in short a tower shield set for total cover is a portable wall, nothing more, nothing less.

[Fouredged Sword]

Yes and no. I agree with you. I am pointing out that RAW isn't really as clear as people think it is. I have seen lots of interpretations used at various times. I have even had a DM realize their way of reading RAW was silly and use another halfway though a game. I have even seen DM's give up and do whatever is less bookkeeping until it is a dramatic component of an encounter.

Rules are fuzzy. Ask your DM (TM).

[Scottlang]

Darrin, they are in the bestiary 2 page 109

[Scottlang]

Ok guys you've gone completely off of topic... I'm talking about a normal ring of force shield, not a metal/wooden tower shield, and it was a Cleric that is wielding the RING OF FORCE SHIELD, my q is if a breath weapon was used, lightning, fire, cone of cold, gas was used would it stop the breath weapon as the spell wall of force??

[Necroticplague]

Nope. Only thing it does is provide a Heavy Shield with no ACP or ASF.