Dragon Knight Overhaul (WIP) [PEACH]

[DracoKnight]

My very first post on the forum was of the Dragon Knight class that I had created cobbling together various class features in a very crude and overpowered fashion (https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B66RprYE6_HHM2NUdndaS1ZCTHM/view), and I had basically given up on balancing it. Here is my attempt at creating the class with class features that I'm not cherry-picking from the book, but actually thinking out, and choosing for thematics as well as combat ability. I really want this to be done well so that I can release it to my players, worry free. I would love the forum's help balancing it, as this class is my baby; hell, it's where my username came from.

Things that I have completed:

- the base class chassis is complete
- the table is finished
- the fluff is written
- the Dragon Soul is complete
- The Dragon Slayer is complete
- the Dragon Knight Spell List is complete
- The Dragon Rider is complete

Things that I still have to complete:

- Playtesting

So here it is: the Dragon Knight (https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B66RprYE6_HHXy1GektCd1FFLUk/view?usp=sharing) - take two! :smallbiggrin:

Design Notes:

When trying to assign this class a Hit Dice, I initially wanted to give the Dragon Knight a d10 (I envision them as a little bit on the tankier side) but d10 was too high for a full caster. So, instead I looked at the d8, but that felt too low. Finally I decided to split up the d8 into 2d4. The intention is that on a short rest you expend 1 hit dice as 2d4, you are unable to spend 1d4 to heal over a short rest.

My inspiration for this class and it's subclasses came from various sources.
Dragon Slayer - this comes from the classic image of the knight who roams the countryside slaying dragons to protect kingdoms.
Dragon Rider - my inspiration for this class comes from Eragon; plus it would just be badass to fly around on a dragon. I used find steed cast at higher levels to grant the dragon to the player, as if the dragon were to die, they would have no subclass without finding another one.
Dragon Soul - the inspiration for this is the Dragonborn in Skyrim. I don't know how close I got it, but it's only my first draft.

[Requiemforlust]

Wow. I can see why you want to overhaul it. I like the fact that your concept seems to have evolved over time, as well as your ability to homebrew. Your presentation is also much better. (not that that has any impact on whether or not the class is balanced). I'm interested to see how you balance having a pet dragon - and I think this is a uniquely flavored class. I look forward to seeing where this goes. :smallsmile:

[SodaDarwin]

Seems pretty sweet, can't wait to see it finished. Though, I noticed something odd: The hit dice. 2d4? That's an interesting choice. Unconventional. Any big reason? Not sure what sort of havoc that might wreak on anything that relies on numbers of hit dice, as they'll have effectively twice the amount as anybody else.

[DracoKnight]

Seems pretty sweet, can't wait to see it finished. Though, I noticed something odd: The hit dice. 2d4? That's an interesting choice. Unconventional. Any big reason? Not sure what sort of havoc that might wreak on anything that relies on numbers of hit dice, as they'll have effectively twice the amount as anybody else.

The choice for 2d4 was actually a conscious decision. I wanted to make the Dragon Knight a full caster, but at the same time - they're not squishies in my head. 1d10 is too OP for a full caster, but I felt that 1d8 was too low. So, I decided to take notes from the UA Ranger overhaul and split up the Hit Dice, so that a Dragon Knight can get better healing that a Bard or Warlock, without actually increasing the Hit Point Average per level. In terms of power level, I can see this...not quite hitting Wizard levels of power, but probably sitting by the Bard...

[GandalfTheWhite]

*bookmarks for later* Well, you have my attention.

[DracoKnight]

Updated the OP. The Dragon Slayer is complete, and ready to PEACH.

EDIT: The Dragon Knight Spell List is complete. The only thing left to do is figure out how to balance a PC having a bloody dragon. I have a few ideas.

[SterlingWren]

I would love the forum's help balancing it, as this class is my baby; hell, it's where my username came from.

Well, I'm sure I'd love to help any way I can. Lemme know if you need help playtesting it.


Things that I still have to complete:

- The Dragon Rider

I'm interested to see how you balance this.


So here it is: the Dragon Knight (https://docs.google.com/document/d/17zO5cFwJ0fYb91yphH-UsifxSnD4C5LWJ1xzj5Ye3F8/edit?usp=sharing) - take two! :smallbiggrin:

Overall, I think you've done a great job so far. Keep it up! I hope that this class turns out to be everything that you want it to be. :smallsmile:

[GandalfTheWhite]

The only thing I'm worried about is the fact that Dragon Slayer is very niche. Although it's highly flavorful and thematic - I love it. But it's like a hyper-focused ranger.

[DracoKnight]

The only thing I'm worried about is the fact that Dragon Slayer is very niche. Although it's highly flavorful and thematic - I love it. But it's like a hyper-focused ranger.

That's kind of what this class is though - it's super niche. It wouldn't get played in every campaign. It wouldn't be allowed (for world logic) in every campaign.

On another note, I've completed the first draft of all of the features in all of the subclasses, PEACH away :smallbiggrin:

[Requiemforlust]

I like what I'm seeing so far. I'm not the best person for balancing things - but this might be something I let my players choose to play. I like how you implemented guidelines for casting find steed at higher levels for the Dragon Rider. :smallsmile:

[DracoKnight]

I'm going to playtest this class, but is there anyone willing to run DPR numbers (Kryx?) or playtest it as well, to double-check me?

[GandalfTheWhite]

If I have time, I might be able to help playtest.

Also, thank you for including your design notes :smallsmile:

[DracoKnight]

If I have time, I might be able to help playtest.

Thank you :smallsmile:


Also, thank you for including your design notes :smallsmile:

You're welcome! :smallbiggrin:

[JNAProductions]

*Cracks knuckles* Alright, let's get this going on!

First off, 16 pages. Wow. There is clearly effort into this. Fluff is good, matches the tone of the PHB, and is a nice touch not every homebrewer (me included) adds to their classes.

First look at the table... This worries me. Full casting, and a Fighting Style? Is this going to be as good as a fighter and a wizard?

2d4 HP per level. Weird, but okay, as I believe someone earlier addressed.

Proficiencies, skills, and saves all look good.

Why is Lethal Focus at level 2? It seems unnecessarily gimping to do it for one level only.

Unarmored Defense is a powerful feature. Do not hand it out lightly. I think the armor proficiencies should be enough for this class.

Draconic is basically fluff, so no big deal there.

They get every fighting style... Again, worrying sign. Even the half-casters only get a limited pool, and this guy is a full caster.

Lethal Focus, again, should probably be at level 1.

Draconic Strike seems okay, as a way to keep their weapon attacks competitive.

Adept Strikes seems okay. One thing, though-magical only matters for piercing, bludgeoning, and slashing, which elemental is not. It doesn't affect anything, it's just not needed.

Dragon Slayer is either overpowered (if you're fighting mostly dragons) or too weak (if you're not). This could use some serious reworking.

Dragon Rider is flat out OP. At least, seems that way. Free flight, a seriously powerful ally... This needs to be toned down, or at the very least, playtested seriously. And the capstone is definitely too much, even for a capstone.

Dragon Soul is fine, barring one thing-Spell Ferocity. This doubles your DPR. I'm not sure what to replace it with, though.

Overall

It seems fine... As a half-caster. Full casting is too much, since its martially as good as a Paladin or Ranger with the only penalty being slightly less HP. So, my final verdict is drop the casting to half, as well as what I said earlier.

[DracoKnight]

*Cracks knuckles* Alright, let's get this going on!

First off, 16 pages. Wow. There is clearly effort into this. Fluff is good, matches the tone of the PHB, and is a nice touch not every homebrewer (me included) adds to their classes.

This is something that I've wanted to bring to fruition for a long time :smallsmile: And thank you for providing feedback :smallbiggrin:


First look at the table... This worries me. Full casting, and a Fighting Style? Is this going to be as good as a fighter and a wizard?

I should probably drop the fighting style then.


2d4 HP per level. Weird, but okay, as I believe someone earlier addressed.

As long as it's okay.


Proficiencies, skills, and saves all look good.

Why is Lethal Focus at level 2? It seems unnecessarily gimping to do it for one level only.

I will change this to 1st level then.


Unarmored Defense is a powerful feature. Do not hand it out lightly. I think the armor proficiencies should be enough for this class.

Yeah, I was thinking about doing that anyways. Especially if I'm moving lethal focus to 1st Level.


Draconic is basically fluff, so no big deal there.

They get every fighting style... Again, worrying sign. Even the half-casters only get a limited pool, and this guy is a full caster.

I'll probably drop the fighting style then.


Lethal Focus, again, should probably be at level 1.

Draconic Strike seems okay, as a way to keep their weapon attacks competitive.

Awesome.


Adept Strikes seems okay. One thing, though-magical only matters for piercing, bludgeoning, and slashing, which elemental is not. It doesn't affect anything, it's just not needed.

Adept strikes is for countering creatures that have resistance to elemental damage (like Dragonborn, or Tiefling), and later immunity (dragons).


Dragon Slayer is either overpowered (if you're fighting mostly dragons) or too weak (if you're not). This could use some serious reworking.

What would you change and how?

Their 3rd level class feature alters a single spell: magic weapon. This change grants them access to the dragon slayer sword.
Their 6th level class feature allows them to expend a spell slot to allow them to detect dragons, much like the Ranger's Favored Enemy, but without the versatility; and alters a single spell: protection from evil and good, merely adding dragons to the list of affected creatures.
Their 14th level class feature allows them to drop concentration on magic weapon, and casting magic weapon every day on your weapon for a year grants a permanent dragon slayer.
Their 20th level feature is basically the Open Hand Monk's Quivering Palm, except it's used instantaneously.

Not saying your point is invalid, but the subclass is dragon slayer...they've specialized in killing dragons. How would you change the above and retain that feel?


Dragon Rider is flat out OP. At least, seems that way. Free flight, a seriously powerful ally... This needs to be toned down, or at the very least, playtested seriously. And the capstone is definitely too much, even for a capstone.

The Dragon Rider is actually the only subclass I've playtested. The summons work fairly well throughout their progression. I sat down with a player, and I had 20 different scenarios laid out. Each scenario was tailored to a single character of a class out of the PHB. The dragon actually didn't cause any problems until we got to the Young Dragon. I will probably change that to be a Wyvern...and replace the Wyvern sting with an appropriate breath weapon. Then make the Young Dragon a 9th level spell slot.

The Dragon Rider was specifically crafted using the Beast Master's restriction on Action Economy. It was enough at lower levels, it was even enough at higher levels. The main problem was when my player used his action to have his dragon use its breath weapon. The breath weapon wasn't the problem. It was that damn recharge.


Dragon Soul is fine, barring one thing-Spell Ferocity. This doubles your DPR. I'm not sure what to replace it with, though.

Maybe move the breath weapon to 3rd level, and make Spell Ferocity 6th level - so it's similar to Extra Attack?


Overall

It seems fine... As a half-caster. Full casting is too much, since its martially as good as a Paladin or Ranger with the only penalty being slightly less HP. So, my final verdict is drop the casting to half, as well as what I said earlier.

How much of its martial side would I have to drop to be able to leave it as a full-caster?

[JNAProductions]

You'd have to drop a decent amount to keep full casting.

As for Spell Ferocity: it is NOT like Extra Attack. Cantrips ALREADY scale to be with extra attack. This doubles your DPR. Spell Ferocity just plain needs to go, no if ands or buts.

If you've really playtested Dragon Rider that thoroughly, then I guess it's okay. I've a more conservative look on things, but I'll take your word it's good.

Finally, on Dragon Slayer... I honestly think the concept is flawed. By narrowing your focus so much, it's going to be unbalanced one way or the other, whether it includes dragons or if it does not. Make it good enough to stand on its own in a campaign without dragons, and it'll be OP once dragons show up. Make it equal when dragons arrive, and it won't be powerful enough without them showing up.

[DracoKnight]

Recent Changes:

Base Class:
- Took away the Unarmored Defense and Fighting Style class features.
- Moved Lethal Focus to 1st level.
- Added "Tongues of the Drake" as the class's 2nd Level feature.

Dragon Rider:
- Took away the addition of your Proficiency bonus to AC, skills, saving throws, to hit and damage.
- Changed the available forms. At a base casting of find steed, the spell will summon an ambush drake, size large with a fly speed of 40 (CR 1/2). Cast with a 4th level slot, you may summon a Wyrmling (CR 2-4). Cast with a 6th level slot, you may summon a modified Wyvern (CR6) that loses it's stinger to gain a Wyrmling breath weapon and resistance to the same type of damage. Casting with a 9th level slot now allows you to summon a Young Dragon.

Dragon Soul:
- Spell Fury has been removed from the subclass.
- Their new 3rd Level feature is called "Voice of the Dragon." Basically a Fus Ro Dah.

[DracoKnight]

You'd have to drop a decent amount to keep full casting.

Okay. I'll look at what I can drop.


As for Spell Ferocity: it is NOT like Extra Attack. Cantrips ALREADY scale to be with extra attack. This doubles your DPR. Spell Ferocity just plain needs to go, no if ands or buts.

Good point. I wasn't thinking about that. It will go.


If you've really playtested Dragon Rider that thoroughly, then I guess it's okay. I've a more conservative look on things, but I'll take your word it's good.

I playtested the first draft, now I'll playtest the current version; and get back to the forum. :smallsmile:


Finally, on Dragon Slayer... I honestly think the concept is flawed. By narrowing your focus so much, it's going to be unbalanced one way or the other, whether it includes dragons or if it does not. Make it good enough to stand on its own in a campaign without dragons, and it'll be OP once dragons show up. Make it equal when dragons arrive, and it won't be powerful enough without them showing up.

I guess that's true. It's a niche option in a very niche - DM discretion - class. I guess in my group we encounter dragons often enough that this option would be worthwhile - but not so often that it's incredibly OP.

[JNAProductions]

Okay. I'll look at what I can drop.

Good.

Good point. I wasn't thinking about that. It will go.

Yup. Now something to replace it-perhaps a form of War Magic?

I playtested the first draft, now I'll playtest the current version; and get back to the forum. :smallsmile:

Sounds like a plan.

I guess that's true. It's a niche option in a very niche - DM discretion - class. I guess in my group we encounter dragons often enough that this option would be worthwhile - but not so often that it's incredibly OP.

For Dragon Slayer, here's what I would do-make it balanced assuming you often encounter dragons (balanced towards the Paladin end of things-the powerful side) and simply leave a statement saying "This subclass is only intended for dragon-heavy campaigns. It may be underpowered in dragon-lite adventures."

[DracoKnight]

For Dragon Slayer, here's what I would do-make it balanced assuming you often encounter dragons (balanced towards the Paladin end of things-the powerful side) and simply leave a statement saying "This subclass is only intended for dragon-heavy campaigns. It may be underpowered in dragon-lite adventures."

That would work.

[SterlingWren]

Hmmmmmm...I like how everything seems to be balanced. I agree with JNA about the Dragon Slayer and the Dragon Soul. The Slayer will really shine in dragon-heavy campaigns, but will underperform in dragon-light campaigns. The Soul is balanced, there shouldn't be anything to worry about there.

Interesting solution to the Dragon Rider. If you need to playtest the current version (12/27/15, 9th-Level find steed = Young Dragon), I am extremely interested, and my schedule is wide open :smallbiggrin: :smallcool: :smallbiggrin: :smallbiggrin: :smallbiggrin: :smallbiggrin: :smallbiggrin:

[zeek0]

As a note on the Dragon Slayer:

One might imagine that the skills needed by an individual to slay dragons also extends to many other combat situations. Even in a dragon-slaying focused campaign, I would hope that one would be fighting a variety of enemies, if only on the way to the dragon. To have the power swing so much seems unusual, and irksome if I was a player.

One option is to give the player multiple bullets to express each trait, and have one option be usable without dragons present?

Cheers, good work.

[DracoKnight]

I updated the Dragon Knight link in the OP, the link now leads to a PDF. :smallsmile:

[DracoKnight]

Replying to allow further discussion

[DanyBallon]

As for hit dice being 2d4, I like the idea, but your execution is clunky, UA ranger gets 2d6 in order to benefits from the fact that their it dices are d6 and that they get 2 by level, so it let ranges to spend any number of d6 on short rest adding their CON modifier to each die. Now your Dragon Knight gets 2d4 by level but can't spend them separatly on short rest. You're creating a mechanic that is going against an existing mechanic, which may end up being confusing to players. Either you should follow UA ranger hit dice mechanic all the way, or look for something else that is doing a similar role without oposing an existing rule.

[DanyBallon]

Don't you think that giving Dragon Knight 4 to 6 cantrips (from 1st level to 20th) is kind a too good for a class that get light and medium armor, 2d4 hit dice, full known spell list that you can change every day your prepared spells? It's like you took the best from every classes and didn't give any throwback. Have them follow known spell rules, or drop hit dice do 1d6 (or 2d3), or have access only to light armors, or make them half-caster. But as it is right now, it's too generous.

[DracoKnight]

giving Dragon Knight 4 to 6

4 to 6 what?

And this has actually been balanced in playtests so far. I will consider dropping them to just light armor.

[DanyBallon]

4 to 6 what?

And this has actually been balanced in playtests so far. I will consider dropping them to just light armor.

Oups, 4 to 6 cantrips. I'll fix it in my previous post.

What kind of playtest? From peoples that were waiting for such a class and have a favorable inclination toward the class, or from random people that gave you lots of different feedback?

I don't want to dismiss your work, you've done a great job, but I'm always cautious when someone says "it's been playtested" as an answer to any questions about balance.

[DracoKnight]

Oups, 4 to 6 cantrips. I'll fix it in my previous post.

What kind of playtest? From peoples that were waiting for such a class and have a favorable inclination toward the class, or from random people that gave you lots of different feedback?

I don't want to dismiss your work, you've done a great job, but I'm always cautious when someone says "it's been playtested" as an answer to any questions about balance.

Random people, both veteran and newbie players, munchkins and casuals alike. I got lots of feedback, favorable and negative, and I fixed the negative. You can private message me, and I can give you the contact details (their emails, after I get their permission to do so) of the people who playtested this material, so you can hear their feedback. :smallsmile:

[DanyBallon]

Random people, both veteran and newbie players, munchkins and casuals alike. I got lots of feedback, favorable and negative, and I fixed the negative. You can private message me, and I can give you the contact details (their emails, after I get their permission to do so) of the people who playtested this material, so you can hear their feedback. :smallsmile:

Let me get straight, I'm not saying your work is bogus. You've been working on this class for a long time as far as I can see from the different threads, but playtesting isn't as simple as some think it is (... playtesting D&D with its 20 level and 3 pillars of the game is even harder to do) and I often see people trying to shut down critism by saying their work has been playtested, hence my caution.

As far as my question, it's a legitimate concern after a first read. You class is a full spell caster with a decent spell list, that gets the best cantrip progression (only shared by sorcerers who are d6 spellcasters), gets cleric's armor proficiency as well as their method of preparing spells which is one of the best IMO, plus they get 2d4 hit dice as I explained previously, if are use in accordance to preexisting rules makes them just short from a d10 class. It seems to be a bit too much punch into a single class. Half-caster, 2d3 hit dice, lower cantrip progression, limiting armor proficiency to light armors, might be more adequate. But all those possible changes will ask for more playtesting.

[DracoKnight]

Let me get straight, I'm not saying your work is bogus. You've been working on this class for a long time as far as I can see from the different threads, but playtesting isn't as simple as some think it is (... playtesting D&D with its 20 level and 3 pillars of the game is even harder to do) and I often see people trying to shut down critism by saying their work has been playtested, hence my caution.

As far as my question, it's a legitimate concern after a first read. You class is a full spell caster with a decent spell list, that gets the best cantrip progression (only shared by sorcerers who are d6 spellcasters), gets cleric's armor proficiency as well as their method of preparing spells which is one of the best IMO, plus they get 2d4 hit dice as I explained previously, if are use in accordance to preexisting rules makes them just short from a d10 class. It seems to be a bit too much punch into a single class. Half-caster, 2d3 hit dice, lower cantrip progression, limiting armor proficiency to light armors, might be more adequate. But all those possible changes will ask for more playtesting.

Here's the changes I'm working on implementing:

-Light Armor only
-Spells Known
-Lesser Cantrip progression

Keeping in mind that when this was playtested, we determined it to be balanced, I think these nerfs will work.

[Goran]

As a class with a full progression spellcasting list, this is blatantly overpowered. Strip some of your power milestones, and think of overlaps with other classes. Your class would then be more balanced and unique (though it already is unique)

[DanyBallon]

Here's the changes I'm working on implementing:

-Light Armor only
-Spells Known
-Lesser Cantrip progression

Keeping in mind that when this was playtested, we determined it to be balanced, I think these nerfs will work.

That should make them more on par with other casters.
I still feel that your class would make more sense as an half-caster, as maybe except for the Dragon Soul, both Dragon Slayer and Dragon Rider are more akin to martial classes than to a spell caster, but this is just my humble opinion.

[Sir cryosin]

I agree with Dany. Dragon slayer should be more martial with abilitys and spell that help defend against dragons and other creatures a like. The Dragon rider should be a half caster if you are using eragon as inspiration in the books he was fighting more with his sword then magic and magic was a limited resource so only full train magic users used it a lot. Look at giving dragon rider auras like a paladin or the paladin smites as yous your dragons power to inhance you abilitys.

[NoblePrimus]

Is there any update to this Class? I am particularly interested in playing the Dragon Knight (Dragon Soul) in my current Adventure. But I want to make sure I have the latest build of this class.

[DracoKnight]

Is there any update to this Class? I am particularly interested in playing the Dragon Knight (Dragon Soul) in my current Adventure. But I want to make sure I have the latest build of this class.

The class is not balanced yet. I recently joined the team at Middle Finger of Vecna, so I tabled this to work on team projects. Only play this if you want to annoy your DM with how overpowered your character is. I will eventually get back to this, though! Hopefully soon, especially if people are interested in playing it :smallbiggrin:

[Ziegander]

WARNING!
The following critique is six pages long.

TL;DR Version: The Dragon Knight is technically balanced, but the spellcasting needs toned way down, its spell list needs reined in, and its class features focus way too much on improving the attack action to the point of rivaling half-caster and non-caster martial combat which just feels inappropriate for a full caster.

Hit Dice: Weird. Unnecessary. The Dragon Knights' closest compatriots are the Valor Bard and the Cleric. Neither of them are meant to be squishy (especially War or Forge Clerics), yet both make do just fine with d8 hit dice. Dragon Knight should too. I'm gonna continue to make a ton of comparisons of Dragon Knights to Bards and Clerics so... prep your butt.

Proficiencies: Better armor than Bard, but Clerics get shields. Fair. Martial Weapons. War Clerics can get this, heavy armor, and shields. Fine. This is one of the areas where 5e balance is... kind of weird, and not so straightforward, but I'll touch more on that later. Dexterity and Charisma saves, fine, but seems slightly odd for some reason. Makes sense for Bard, but this class feels more front-line-y, less Dex-focused. Maybe Constitution and Charisma makes more sense? Less skills than Bard, same as Cleric (or less than Cleric of specific domains). Fine.

CLASS FEATURES
Big one, obviously.

Level One
Cantrips: More than either the Bard or the Cleric. I'd say this definitely needs to come down to 3 and could even come all the way down to 2 (as per Bard) at 1st level.

Lethal Focus: Seems like more of a ribbon ability at first blush, but it's more useful than most people would give it credit for. It pushes the class right from level one as a much less focused "full-caster" than, say, a Cleric or Wizard and much more of the Bardic-styled sort of full-caster-but-with-other-hobbies. It's a fine 1st level ability though.

Draconic is certainly just a ribbon.

Comparing your 1st level overall to the Bard and the Cleric, Bards get only 2 cantrips but they get the really good Bardic Inspiration while Clerics get 3 cantrips and a choice between a wide variety of new proficiencies and a minor/decent combat ability. I would say... the Dragon Knight, with its solid proficiencies feels at home so far.

Level Two
Short but sweet, your Dragon Knight gets a ribbon ability. On the other hand Bards gain a minor bump to versatility and a minor bump to the entire party's overall hit point recovery, and Clerics get a once-per-short-rest combat trick with two different functions. I'd say your Dragon Knight has definitely fallen behind so far.

Level Three
However, at 3rd level Clerics only get their 2nd level spells while Bards and your Dragon Knight both get their archetype path's first ability(s). But since the Bard got a couple minor abilities at 2nd, you're probably still a little behind? Let's see what Bards can get here compared to the Dragon Knight.

Dragon Slayer gets a rare magic item property whenever he casts a certain spell and he gains resistance, a powerful defensive advantage. Dragon Rider gains an exceptionally powerful mount whenever he casts a certain spell but nothing else. Dragon Soul gains resistance and fus ro dah a number of times per long rest. Coo.

Lore Bard gets three new skill proficiencies and an inverse use of Bardic Inspiration (nice). Valor Bard gets better weapon and armor proficiencies and can use Bardic Inspiration for damage rolls to improve AC.

Overall, I'd say the Dragon Knight's archetype features are probably equivalent to the Bard's at 3rd level. You should consider giving the Dragon Knight one minor quality of life / minor combat-utility feature at 2nd level.

Level Four
And 8, and 12, and 16, and 19. Everyone who's anyone gets the same stuff, and the Dragon Knight's no different, so you're doing okay there (more on level 8 later).

Level Five
A huge level for Bards, a fairly ribbon level for Clerics, a solid level for Dragon Knights. But this is where you're going to see a lot of complaints from DMs and players that the Dragon Knight is OP. A full-caster with Extra Attack at 5th level?! Unheard of! But to some extent, they're right. Bards get it at 6th level, only if they're Valor Bards, and Clerics don't get it at all. In a vacuum, the Dragon Knight gaining Extra Attack at 5th is at least no stronger than Bards getting a higher Inspiration die and Font of Inspiration, but the fact that you're getting it at the same time as Fighters, Paladins, and Rangers alongside your 3rd level spell slots and without it taking up one of your archetype's class features, probably puts it over the line as just something you should change. In my opinion, you should relegate Extra Attack to Dragon Slayers only and have it replace the Draconic Awareness feature.

Level Six
A big level for Clerics, a solid level for Bards, but another slow level for the Dragon Knight. Clerics get two uses of Channel Divinity and a solid archetype feature, Bards get a mostly ribbon utility but also an archetype feature, but Dragon Knights just get their archetype feature. As-is, Draconic Awareness is pretty so-so, Aerial Cavalry is pretty awesome, and Dragon's Breath is pretty so-so.

Overall, the Dragon Knight is still looking, to me, like he lags behind the Bard and the Cleric.

Level Seven
Here's where things begin to level off. Nobody gets anything and the Dragon Knight continues to get nothing on its higher spell slot levels from here to 20. Looking at things as they stand right now, the Dragon Knight feels weak.

Level Eight
A slow level for Bards, they get only their ASI, a massive level for Clerics who get the ASI, a ribbon, and a boost to combat, while the Dragon Knight gets their ASI and the same combat boost the Cleric does. Draconic Strike, though, has the most versatile damage when compared to a Cleric's Divine Strike with the same mechanics - even greater versatility than the Nature Domain's! Dragon Knights also get Extra Attack so that means not only two attacks on an attack action for more overall damage than a Cleric with Divine Strike, but better chances to land their Divine Strike.

Improved Divine Smite this is not, but it's not far off and the Dragon Knight gets it three levels earlier. Since it can target vulnerabilities it kinda levels off against Improved Divine Smite and once you add in the second damage die at 14th, I'd say this is honestly better than Improved Divine Smite.

So this is the second place where DMs and players are likely to cry foul at the Dragon Knight. In melee it's just better than any other full-caster, including existing melee full-casters, and it's arguably better than melee half-casters too!

From here Dragon Knights only get four more class features at levels 10, 14, 18, and 20. Bards get stuff all over the place including Magical Secrets at 10th, 14th, and 18th levels and pick up a weak capstone at 20th; Clerics get less than Bards, but more than Dragon Knights. But let's see where they compare.

Level Nine
Both Dragon Knights and Clerics get nothing, while Bards improve on their Song of Rest, ever so slightly increasing their already slight increase to overall party recovery.

Level Ten
Bards' Inspiration dice increase again, providing a slight increase to a host of nice buffs (or debuffs, College of Lore), while Clerics get a weird sort of ribbon, sort of Miracle based on DM Fiat. As for the Dragon Knight, they pick up Adept Strikes which is making their weapon attacks even mo betta. They were already starting to get out of hand, now in addition to being able to target vulnerability they get to tell resistance to damage to sit down and shut up. Aside from Extra Attack (2) or (3), you've stacked up the best class feature attack action buffs onto the Dragon Knight in the game. By the time you get to Level 18 (with Draconic Strike and Adept Strikes both having improved once each), nobody has a better attack action than a Fighter (or, I guess, a Rogue).

Level Eleven
Dragon Knight gets nothing, Clerics' ribbon feature improves, Bards get nothing.

Level Thirteen
Bards' Song of Rest improves while Clerics and Dragon Knights get nothing.

Level Fourteen
An interesting level. Clerics' ribbon feature improves as does its Divine Strike, while Bards have an archetype feature and Magical Secrets (huge) and Dragon Knights get their archetype feature plus improved Draconic Strike. Let's compare the archetype features.

Dragon Slayer gets an interesting improvement, in general to the Magic Weapon spell (it's odd to refer to an improvement to their casting of one spell as "general," but, that's the archetype) paired with a really cute ribbon, tres chic. Dragon Rider gets a nice defensive improvement to their steed coupled with a very strange and DM-fiaty form of super-evasion that costs spell slots (I don't like this from a design standpoint, but it's not OP). Dragon Soul gets an ability that's probably OP even though it doesn't really seem like it. :smallconfused:

Lore gets to use Bardic Inspiration to improve its own ability checks, something perhaps long overdue and nothing extremely exciting, but nevertheless welcome to go with its abundance of skills. Valor gets to make a weapon attack as a bonus action after using its action to cast a spell.

So, how do the two classes stack up? Magical Secrets is awesome and arguably better than either of the two abilities that the Bard's archetypes pick up while Instrument of the Slayer feels more or less balanced against Peerless Skill and Battle Magic, but Draconic Evasion feels more powerful overall and Dragon's Mark feels OP, but isn't in a vacuum. But like so much else that feels OP with the Dragon Knight, Dragon's Mark cannot be considered in a vacuum. Now the Dragon Soul, specifically, has +5 to weapon damage rolls and +5 to the elemental damage he adds to his weapon attacks via Draconic Strike, not to mention added onto cantrips and elemental spell damage.
So now, at 18th level, you have a character with Extra Attack, Divine Strike (2d8 for acid, cold, electricity, fire, or poison damage), Adept Strike (ignore resistance, treat immunity as resistance, add Cha mod to damage), and add Cha mod to damage (again). Comparing the Dragon Soul's weapon attacks to a Cleric's, even a War Cleric's, shows the Cleric is hilariously outmatched.

But let's MathTM

We'll give both characters the following array 20, 18, 16, 13, 12, 10.

Fighter has Str 20, Dex 10, Con 18, Int 13, Wis 16, Cha 12 and he's got the Great Weapon Master feat along with the Great Weapon Fighting style. He's swinging a +2 Flame Tongue around and as such has a +13 bonus to hit and deals 2d6+5 slashing and 2d6 fire damage on each hit with three attacks per action.

Factoring in critical hits and Great Weapon Fighting style, against AC 18 the Champion deals an average of ~59 damage when not using GWM and an average of ~64 (factoring in the compounding probability of gaining a bonus action attack that he then also uses GWM on) when he is using GWM. Against fire resistant enemies, his damage goes down by about 1/5th.

Dragon Knight has Str 12, Dex 13, Con 18, Int 10, Wis 16, Cha 20 and let's say he's got Magic Initiate as his feat just to get Shillelagh. He's swinging a Staff of Power, let's say, and as such has a +13 bonus to hit (w/Shillelagh) and deals 1d8+10 bludgeoning damage + 2d8+5 acid, cold, electricity, fire, or poison damage (that ignores resistance and treats immunity as resistance) for one hit per turn and 1d8+10 with his second. For up to about 12 attacks per day, sustainably, he can consume a charge from his Staff of Power to add another 1d6 force damage. If an average combat lasts 4 rounds, and the Dragon Knight gets into six combat encounters a day, that's 1d6 extra damage every two turns.

Factoring in critical hits as well as the odd Staff of Power charge, against AC 18 the Dragon Soul deals an average of 36. And that's a huge difference, you say, but against fire resistant enemies the Fighter's only dealing 51.2. Well, that's still a huge difference, isn't it? Well... the Dragon Knight's damage goes up to ~40 when using Hunter's Mark or ~50 against an elemental vulnerability (and up to ~54 with both), a substantial increase.

Now, the Champion has no spells, it's all about martial prowess, and with a level playing field the Dragon Soul is only dealing 61% of it's damage. Lacking a third attack, though, that means for its two attacks, it's only 5% away from where you'd expect the Champion itself to be at two attacks. How does a Cleric stack up? A Cleric with a 1d8 extra damage dice +2 magic weapon, let's say, is coming in with 1d8+4 weapon damage + 2d8 (war domain) + 1d8 lightning we'll call it for one hit per turn and 1d8+4 + 1d8 with the second. Against AC 18, that's only an average of 28.9. If we factor in the War Domain's War Priest bonus action attack it goes up to 39.3 but only for 5 turns per day.
Level Fifteen
Well, we know the Dragon Knight gets nothing, but Bardic Inspiration goes up one last time meanwhile Clerics also get nothing. Shrug.

Level Seventeen
Clerics get a big level here, seeing their "domain capstone" and a ribbon improvement, Bards see a Song of Rest bump, but Dragon Knights get nothing. Womp womp. :smalltongue:

Level Eighteen
Bards continue to get relevant features (Magical Secrets!) and Clerics get a third use of Channel Divinity (nice), and Dragon Knights get Improved Adept Strikes, which is almost uncalled for at this point. Treat immunity to elemental damage as resistance and add Charisma modifier to the elemental damage done by your Draconic Strikes. So your weapon attacks now deal weapon damage + modifier + 2d8 + Charisma modifier. Two modifiers to damage (or Charisma twice, or Charisma mod x3 if you're a Dragon Soul!!!) just seems like dogpiling damage now.

Level Twenty
It's level 20, so YMMV, everyone's mileage may vary, but it is what it is. Dragon Knights get fitting capstones for their archetypes, Bards have a weak Inspiration capstone and Clerics get one free Miracle per week. Shrug.

SO, what I'm seeing here is a full-caster with otherwise weak class features compared to a Bard or Cleric, but whose martial combat outclasses them both soundly and encroaches perhaps a little uncomfortably closely to half-casters, even non-caster classes martial combat prowess. That's where things sort of fall apart. See, I wouldn't call this class imbalanced (yet, we've still got spell list to look at), with how spell slots, Extra Attack, and proficiency are handled, 5e has this weird situation where Bards with medium armor, 9th level spells, and Extra Attack are balanced against Paladins with heavy armor, Extra Attack, but only 5th level spells. And it works. But the Dragon Knight as presented just makes people uncomfortable is how I would put it. People just don't like to see a full caster with 9th level spell slots that can melee as well or better than a Paladin. It just doesn't feel right.

Now about that spell list.

I've gotta be honest, my knee-jerk reaction is that this seems pretty cherry-picked. SCAG weapon cantrips, Cure Wounds, Find Familiar, Hunter's Mark, Shield, XXXX Smite, Blur, Find Steed, Hold Person, Invisibility, Knock (why Knock?), Misty Step, Spiritual Weapon, Counterspell, Elemental Weapon, Fireball, Haste, Death Ward, Dimension Door, Greater Invisibility (again why?), Animate Objects, Dominate Person, etc, etc.

Before we even look at the spells of levels 6th through 9th, this is a powerhouse spell list. Part of why the Bard remains balanced is that the spell list is almost annoyingly sparse. It lacks several key buffs you could expect to the be there, but the designers showed considerable restraint. Magical Secrets helps flesh it out, but you're using class features on that which you otherwise wouldn't. Instead, the Dragon Knight's spell list radically outclasses a Paladin's, for example, and has a little bit of everything from healing, to crowd control, to area nukes, to single target hard control, to arcane utility and more.

High levels see Disintegrate alongside Planar Ally, Conjure Celestial alongside Finger of Death and Forcecage, Antimagic Field, Clone, Demiplane, Dominate Monster, and Wish. Gods, man, it has Wish. And nothing is holding this beast back. Dragon Knights don't need to learn spells the way a Bard or a Wizard would, they know every spell on their spell list like a Cleric does! That's bonkers! This spell list looks better than the Cleric's just by virtue of having far greater versatility in answers to more situations. Clerics have a good spell list, but they don't get AoE like Fireball or utility like Invisibility or Teleport.

As far as I'm concerned, this spell list needs pruning, and on top of that I would recommend giving it a spells known progression equal to a Bard. Just in the first three spell levels, the Dragon Knight has five more 1st level spells on its list, and seven more, each, 2nd and 3rd level spells, for a total number of spells "known" of 72 by fifth DK level compared to the 8 known by the Bard, from a list that's as versatile or more than the Cleric's and Bard's lists combined.

WELL! Holy ****, I've been writing for hours now, this critique got really in-depth. My final, overall suggestions for you, then, are to simply change the Hit Die to d8, it has no reason to have 2d4; reduce the cantrips to the Bard's progression and force it into a Bard's spells known progression; starting from 2nd level on, go ahead and buff up that class features table with some fluffy ribbons and some interesting minor (minor, pls) combat abilities; but lose Extra Attack from the base class, move it to the Dragon Slayer archetype; along that same line the gut-punch combo of Extra Attack, Draconic Strike and Adept Strikes, and the improvements to both of the latter two are borderline overwhelming and just don't feel like features appropriate to a full-caster class. Figure out some way to tone them down, or in the case of Adept Strikes, I recommend replacing it entirely with something not related to weapon attacks at all. If you want to improve the Dragon Knight's weapon combat, do it with the Dragon Slayer and/or the Dragon Rider, but keep it out of the base class. And finally you've got to work on that spell list. Make it less versatile and reduce the number of spells per level, probably closer to the Bard's spell list, but right now, per level, you have way more spells than a Cleric does, including spells added via Domains. So that's gotta be fixed.

It's occupying a weird place right now is all. DK isn't imbalanced, technically, but it feels wrong. In terms of spell capability it's better than a Cleric but not quite as strong as a Wizard or Sorcerer. In terms of combat capability it's leagues better than a Bard or Cleric, and on par with a Paladin, but it's got 9th level spells. And yet, the class features still feel hollow and one-dimensional. It's got really great spells and spellcasting, paired with adequate-to-strong weapon combat capability (and great buff spells), but little else going for it. It could use some minor utilities and ribbons and a little rebalancing to feel better, in my opinion. I'd say, ideally, you want this guy to be better than a Bard at combat, but not so versatile with its spellcasting. You want it to be about on par with a War Cleric in combat, but maybe not so team-friendly as a Cleric usually is. But overall, you just want it to feel more like an interesting, sort of sorcerous/draconic middle-ground class between Bard and Cleric and right now, often, it feels like a stronger version of both (while oddly missing out on interesting features or improvements throughout the class level progression).

[NoblePrimus]

Ok Color me a Noob but what is meant by Ribbon Ability?

[JNAProductions]

Ok Color me a Noob but what is meant by Ribbon Ability?

An ability that's more about fluff than crunch. Something that doesn't really help in combat or your skills, for the most part, but is just cool to have.

[NoblePrimus]

Ah ok thank you. After spending some time looking this over I have a couple of thoughts on this class. First let me state that I love this concept to its core and I appreciate the time it takes to create a class like this. But I feel like it might be trying to mix too much into one class.

The Dragon Slayer and Dragon Rider might be better suited as archetypes of the Fighter or in the case of the rider maybe ranger. However I think the dragon Soul could be a class unto its own where the archetype is based on the dragon type (Soul of Blue or Silver).

Another piece I think we might look at changing is the spells. If we are truly basing it on Dragons then if you look at the monster manual you will see that unless you use the Innate Spellcaster option Dragon don't normally get spell slots and a large number of spells to cast. Maybe making the class more like innate magic could help balance the class.

Just my thoughts on a great concept.