"I am the one who knocks!" - A story on Entangle and Shillelagh

[Socratov]

Sop, there is this gnome druid called Alvyn "Squeakums" Timber, for reference, think a mix of Alvyn of Alvyn and the chipmunks, and Kronk from the Emperor's new groove. As you might guess I'm having a ball playing this character.

In the past 3 sessions Alvyn (up to lvl 2) has been in combat against quite the number of enemies. for example: at lvl 1 he beat, with 3 other partymembers, a wolf, a bugbear, 2 goblins, but entangling everyone and focus fireing everything down (bugbear blocking the way for goblins, and taking 4 turns to get out of entangle). Since then every time Alvyn has used entangle, he has turned an otherwise hard or deadly encounter into an easy one. The Dc is not so high, only 13 for a str. check. Every time at least 50% of the enemies are entangled for a couple of turns making sure the encounter gets 50% easier while we take out time to finish off the rest.

Now, am I just so lucky or is entangle such a strong/borderline OP spell?

On shilleilagh: now you can be small, and still deal a one handed 1d8 damage while having a fre ehand to cast/hold a shield, and it's a bonus action cantrip. Looks very strong for especially the early levels...

[Malifice]

Quick post to give kudos to the BB reference.

[Socratov]

Quick post to give kudos to the BB reference.

haha thanks, I only thought it approrpiate since shillelagh give one hell of a knock (on a 16 widom a +3 to a 1d8 damage) and entangle pretty much shuts down everything in the vicinity.

[gullveig]

The Entangle spell is a controlling spell, it is made to change the tides of battle and it is doing its purpose.

We goal is not win a challenging fight, but how many fights you can win in a row.

Remember that when you use Entangle, you are spending one spell slot.

If you can use Entangle in every fight at level 1 and 2, then the problem is that you have too few fights, not that Entangle is overpowered.

[SharkForce]

shillelagh is not particularly remarkable for the damage die. most other classes could've used a rapier, and the difference between 1d6 and 1d8 isn't particularly impressive.

using wisdom for it is the real difference.

as for entangle, just so long as you remember that on casting it is a strength *save* (which some monsters will be proficient in), and only later is strength checks to escape (note that basically no monsters are proficient in strength checks), you're using it right. just remember it works on your own party as well, so you can't get in there and melee them.

[Dalebert]

Shillelagh is a great spell at lower levels. At higher levels once you have a decent magic weapon, particularly if it's a little fancier than just having a modifier, you will be frustrated that you can't change out cantrips.

[Addaran]

Yes, Entangle (and web) are very game-changer spells. They do wonder to block part of the map and delay the enemies stuck in it (even if it's just from the difficult terrain). It's even more monstruous when it's a sorcerer with carefull spells that cast it. ;)

I love shillelagh. Free magic weapon at lvl 1 and you can be great in melee even if you dumped str and dex.

[Dalebert]

I love shillelagh. Free magic weapon at lvl 1 and you can be great in melee even if you dumped str and dex.

Which is something many moon druids probably do so good point. I wasn't brave enough to dump my physical stats because I just can't always be in animal form. In that case it's definitely better. I was thinking of a druid with a Dex of 14 or 16 as I tend to give most of my casters for AC purposes. At that point, a +2 finesse weapon is about as good as Shillelagh without using a cantrip slot or a bonus action.

[Addaran]

Which is something many moon druids probably do so good point. I wasn't brave enough to dump my physical stats because I just can't always be in animal form. In that case it's definitely better. I was thinking of a druid with a Dex of 14 or 16 as I tend to give most of my casters for AC purposes. At that point, a +2 finesse weapon is about as good as Shillelagh without using a cantrip slot or a bonus action.

Yeah, i wouldn't completly dump dex either, it's nice for AC, init. and stealth. Sure eventually you can get magic weapons but that's dependant on the campaign setting, the DM and your party composition. The rogue will probably have dips for the first finess weapon. The bonus action isn't really important, it's just once per 10 rounds.
The other amazing thing with shillelagh is how easy it is to get. Your weapon gets stolen or break, you can just "respectfully" rip a branch from a nearby tree. Or break the leg of a chair. And most people won't stop you from having a walking stick if you pretend to limb.

[Ruslan]

shillelagh is not particularly remarkable for the damage die. most other classes could've used a rapier, and the difference between 1d6 and 1d8 isn't particularly impressive.A rapier deals 1d8, so the difference between 1d8 and 1d8 is even less impressive.

[MeeposFire]

Shillelagh allows you to have a competent weapon attack at low levels. It stays competent if you have a character that does well with melee attacks and has a high wisdom for whatever reason (I like it with a hill dwarf nature cleric for instance).

However at mid levels onward it falls behind for classes that have no bonuses to melee weapon attacks. Land druids for instance will likely want to use other attack cantrips from level 5 on up because generally it will deal more damage than shillelagh.

It will still be situationally useful such as when you are fighting an enemy with resistance to magical attacks but not to a magical bludgeoning weapon so then you need to consider if it is better than what other non-attack cantrip you could have had instead.

[SharkForce]

A rapier deals 1d8, so the difference between 1d8 and 1d8 is even less impressive.

for clarity, the 1d6 was referring to the few that can't use a rapier. i don't think there's anyone who can't pull off 1d6 damage if they want to.

[MaxWilson]

In the past 3 sessions Alvyn (up to lvl 2) has been in combat against quite the number of enemies. for example: at lvl 1 he beat, with 3 other partymembers, a wolf, a bugbear, 2 goblins, but entangling everyone and focus fireing everything down (bugbear blocking the way for goblins, and taking 4 turns to get out of entangle). Since then every time Alvyn has used entangle, he has turned an otherwise hard or deadly encounter into an easy one. The Dc is not so high, only 13 for a str. check. Every time at least 50% of the enemies are entangled for a couple of turns making sure the encounter gets 50% easier while we take out time to finish off the rest.

Now, am I just so lucky or is entangle such a strong/borderline OP spell?

Partly, you might be getting lucky, but yes, Entangle is really a very strong spell. Its biggest problem is its relatively small area of effect (barely larger than Flaming Sphere), but if you can manage to get most of your enemies close enough together to hit them all simultaneously with Entangle, it's great. And yeah, taking 50% of the enemies out for a couple of turns sounds about right.

So congratulations on your victories, and may you have many more of them.

[Socratov]

Partly, you might be getting lucky, but yes, Entangle is really a very strong spell. Its biggest problem is its relatively small area of effect (barely larger than Flaming Sphere), but if you can manage to get most of your enemies close enough together to hit them all simultaneously with Entangle, it's great. And yeah, taking 50% of the enemies out for a couple of turns sounds about right.

So congratulations on your victories, and may you have many more of them.

Definitely planning to. these days (just turned lvl 3 two nights ago) I'm gonna lead with entangle, after that wildshape in a bear and eat face. But in these early levels I have really loved shillelagh. teh thing is, a quarterstaff does d6 damage in one hand and if you are small, the bigger weapons aren't exactly going to help much. So getting a free magic, d8 onehanded weapon using your main casting stat is kinda great. all for a bonus action, so it doesn't cost you a thing. Next lvl is 4 and I might, for the first time, actually grab a +2 to wisdom to boost the save further (by 2 because proficiency increase!). But damn, that spell is strong...

[Markoff Chainey]

Shillelaqh stays great.. just get a magic stick or magic QStaff and continue to use it.. the bonus and attributes should still apply.

[MaxWilson]

Definitely planning to. these days (just turned lvl 3 two nights ago) I'm gonna lead with entangle, after that wildshape in a bear and eat face. But in these early levels I have really loved shillelagh. teh thing is, a quarterstaff does d6 damage in one hand and if you are small, the bigger weapons aren't exactly going to help much. So getting a free magic, d8 onehanded weapon using your main casting stat is kinda great. all for a bonus action, so it doesn't cost you a thing. Next lvl is 4 and I might, for the first time, actually grab a +2 to wisdom to boost the save further (by 2 because proficiency increase!). But ----, that spell is strong...

Nitpick: well, it does cost you the opportunity to cast spells like Entangle with your regular action, since bonus action spells prevent you from casting any other spell except a cantrip. But yes, Shillelagh is nice.

At level three, you should definitely look into Spike Growth. It is a monstrously strong spell with a large area which can do enormous amounts of damage to entire groups of creatures. You could defeat a whole zombie horde of two dozen zombies using almost nothing other than that spell and a Repelling Blast Warlock.

Pass Without Trace is great too, if you want to give your party a surprise round and you're reasonably certain enemies are in the vicinity. (E.g. you're exploring a dungeon.)

[Vogonjeltz]

I love shillelagh. Free magic weapon at lvl 1 and you can be great in melee even if you dumped str and dex.

Eh, you're not really good in melee if you dumped str and dex. Anyone who has strength would still be able to push you around basically at will (shove, grapple, disarm, etc...)

[SharkForce]

Eh, you're not really good in melee if you dumped str and dex. Anyone who has strength would still be able to push you around basically at will (shove, grapple, disarm, etc...)

it's a relatively minor concern unless PvP is a thing. very few creatures in the MM have proficiency in athletics, so if you are proficient in either athletics or acrobatics (even if you don't have a very good attribute), they probably won't have a great chance to grapple you.

also, you don't have to dump both strength and dex to take advantage of shillelagh... if you intend to wear medium armour and are a caster, you can leave your dex at 14, max your casting stat, and shillelagh is still worth +3 to hit and damage. if you're planning on heavy armour, you can leave your strength at 15 and still enjoy the same +3 to hit and damage relative to using a non-shillelagh weapon by maxing your casting stat.

it is relatively low value if you aren't able to get it on a list with a casting stat you can benefit from maxing, but if you can use the casting stat it is a very useful weapon option.

[Socratov]

Nitpick: well, it does cost you the opportunity to cast spells like Entangle with your regular action, since bonus action spells prevent you from casting any other spell except a cantrip. But yes, Shillelagh is nice.
Well, I'm concentrating on Entangle anyway, so that is rather a good strategy (or so I thought)

At level three, you should definitely look into Spike Growth. It is a monstrously strong spell with a large area which can do enormous amounts of damage to entire groups of creatures. You could defeat a whole zombie horde of two dozen zombies using almost nothing other than that spell and a Repelling Blast Warlock.
good Idea, I'll look into it

Pass Without Trace is great too, if you want to give your party a surprise round and you're reasonably certain enemies are in the vicinity. (E.g. you're exploring a dungeon.)
Thanks!

Eh, you're not really good in melee if you dumped str and dex. Anyone who has strength would still be able to push you around basically at will (shove, grapple, disarm, etc...)


it's a relatively minor concern unless PvP is a thing. very few creatures in the MM have proficiency in athletics, so if you are proficient in either athletics or acrobatics (even if you don't have a very good attribute), they probably won't have a great chance to grapple you.

also, you don't have to dump both strength and dex to take advantage of shillelagh... if you intend to wear medium armour and are a caster, you can leave your dex at 14, max your casting stat, and shillelagh is still worth +3 to hit and damage. if you're planning on heavy armour, you can leave your strength at 15 and still enjoy the same +3 to hit and damage relative to using a non-shillelagh weapon by maxing your casting stat.

it is relatively low value if you aren't able to get it on a list with a casting stat you can benefit from maxing, but if you can use the casting stat it is a very useful weapon option.
Pretty much what I did, also, gnomes are small, so I'm not built for str checks anyway, that is, until I go Pappa Bear all over some enemy's ass...:smallamused:

[Dalebert]

And most people won't stop you from having a walking stick if you pretend to limb.

"You won't deny an old man his walking stick?" -Gandalf

[PoeticDwarf]

It is one of the best level 1 spells, but not OP. Now you are lucky, half the enemies several rounds with DC 13 is just little luck (see, several rounds).
It is a very strong spell agains groups of enemies, but becomes decent in boss battles and certain situations.

Shillelagh also pretty strong, especially low optimisation, but not OP at all.

[Tanarii]

gnome druid called Alvyn "Squeakums" Timber, for reference, think a mix of Alvyn of Alvyn and the chipmunks,Off topic but .... the other players haven't killed you yet? :smalltongue: :smallamused:

[Socratov]

Off topic but .... the other players haven't killed you yet? :smalltongue: :smallamused:

No, in fact, they love me since I take ass and kick names (or the other way around). In terms of Heavy Weapons Guy: Alvyn is kredit to team!

That said, we have a paladin who has yet to kill a humanoid, having only a killed a nothic and not even drawn blood before. We make it a joke that he can't see gruesome and gory stuff and needs to puke. the fact that another player and I either chop off heads, bash in skulls, break kneecaps and disembowel (seriously rollign high on claw attacks and damage as a bear) does aggravate the nausea he gets a bit. We htink it's hilarious. And while I play the friendly neighbourhood gnome, I'm a CN druid who has seen plenty of gore and thinks it quite natural for gore to exist.