Synergistic Pathfinder Gestalt Classes?

[Haveatya]

Looking some well functioning class combination for an upcoming gestalt game!

So far I have come up with....

Magus / Wizard
1) Tons of spells
2) Both use int
3) Get wizard spells to work with spell combat via arcana

Monk (Unchained) / Empyreal Sorcerer (VMC Magus)
1)Sorcerer spells with Wis casting
2)All saves with high progression
3)Unarmored Defense
4)Spell combat with Flurry of Blows
5)You will be Naruto

Empyreal Sorcer / Cleric
1) Full spell progression for both arcane and divine
2) Same spell casting stat
3) You can do EVERYTHING
4) Option to do armor in intense situations and just use cleric spells
5) Fort save upped to prevent getting wrecked by high level save or die spells in some cases

What else do you guys have that has good synergism? Any flaws with the above gestalts?

[Cranthis]

Fighter goes well with any and all of them.

Magus would work well with rogue.

Sorcerer and Oracle.

Sorcerer and Paladin is a classic.

[Oneris]

Aether Kineticist//Rogue
*Scaling Mage Hand that can pick up magic items
*Sleight of Hand/Disable Device from 30ft away
*At-Will Invisiblity and Flight
*Sneak attack with Kinetic Blast: Double your damage

[Gnaeus]

Summoner is supreme in gestalt. Synthesist lets you dump physical stats, non synthesist lets you break action economy (Hunter is also good for this) Full 9 casting should exist on exactly one side of a gestalt. If DSP content is available, Sorcerer//Daevic or Warlord are much stronger than Sorcerer//cleric. You can only cast one spell/round until quicken. A good gestalt has an active side (generally the full caster) and a passive side (providing a pet or good hp/passive bonuses). Option to use armor and ignore half of your gestalt is not worth writing on your sheet.

[The Vagabond]

For buffing potential, Wizard//Investigator is a very solid combination, or Wizard//Alchemist is a decent option. Alchemist has a few class features for any Gishes that might desire to fight. Buffers, if above level 3, would go Investigator, grabbing the Infusion discovery. You now have +4 to action economy for your buffs.

Druid Monk multiclass can by itself get beastly. Druid//Monk is gonna kill y'all, now, just with one feat to make it's natural attacks deal unarmed strike damage.

Synthesis Summoner is always nice, but is frequently banned.

[Jack_Simth]

Heh. There was a pretty recent thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?472700-Beginner-Gestalt-Duo-Team) that asked a related (but noticeably different) question. Still, my first post in the thread is quite useful here:

Other options:
Druid (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/druid)//Monk (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/monk) (animal companion, wildshape, spells, flurry, Wis-SAD, full casting)

Oracle (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/oracle)//Paladin (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/paladin) (Full BAB, Charisma to saves, full casting, heavy armor proficiency). Careful selection of mystery (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/oracle#TOC-Mystery), Revelation, Curse (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/oracle/oracle-curses), and archetypes can also get you selectable Wizard spells and an animal companion (Say... Lunar Mystery (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/oracle/mysteries/paizo---oracle-mysteries/lunar-mystery): Primal Companion for an animal companion, the Spirit Guide Archetype (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/oracle/archetypes/paizo---oracle-archetypes/spirit-guide) to pick up the Lore Spirit (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/hybrid-classes/shaman/spirits/lore) for the Arcane Enlightenment hex to pick up an assortment of Wizard spells, with maybe the Forsaken curse for the self-revival or the Feral curse for wild shape). Lay on Hands gives you reasonable amounts of healing - and something to do with your swift actions - and opens up the Ultimate Mercy (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/ultimate-mercy) feat for cheap resurrection of your fellow party member and your animal companions.

Druid (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/druid)//Rogue (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/rogue) (a little MAD, but stacking Sneak Attack on top of multiple attacks from Wildshape means most things get dead quickly... also gives trapfinding).

[the_archduke]

If DSP is allowed:

Paladin//Wilder
Aegis//anything really
Steelfist Commando Warlord//Dread (Broken Dreams Style! and Fear optimization)

[ghanjrho]

If DSP is allowed:

Paladin//Wilder
Aegis//anything really
Steelfist Commando Warlord//Dread (Broken Dreams Style! and Fear optimization)

The only real problem I have with any of these is the last, and only because Dread and Warlord are both pretty active classes. But yeah, Aegis pairs well with a lot (any sort of INT focus is helpful, but not necessary), and Paladin//Wilder is an inspired choice for a gish (hot-blooded warrior of god, ho!)

For mine (assuming DSP):
Daevic//Paladin
Stalker//anything with a WIS or DEX focus.
Warlord//Swashbuckler
Harbinger//Wizard (grab lots of long-duration buffs and utility spells)

[Hazrond]

I would like to bring attention to the Mesmerist//Sorcerer, which can be SO CRAZY for enchantments. I was thinking at one point of making a Kitsune Mesmerist//Sorcerer with the Fey bloodline and its just bonkers (+4 on compulsions, +5 or so on DC by level 20 from FCB, -3 on THEIR save from Hypnotic Stare, Spell Focus and Greater Spell Focus, etc.) it was a monster but i never got to play it sadly

[Florian]

Most Occult classes do pretty well in Gestalt builds.

Occultist/Magus gives a broad array of tricks.
Spiritualist/Warpriest or Monk is just fearsome melee damage.
Mesmerist/Sorcerer has already been mentioned.
Psychic/Warpriest is quite a brutal gish.
Medium/Bard ramps up versatility to a new level.
Kinetics on Monk, Slayer, Fighter, Rogue ....

[Deadkitten]

I once played a Cavalier (Daring Champion)/Medium (Reanimated Medium) in a game while taking advantage of the Halfling Favored Class Bonus with Racial Heritage (Halfling) and using the Champion Spirit.

The concept was that the character was a bit "too Daring" and got himself killed.

The damage that character could do was almost obsene, and he had some of the strongest all around defenses you can see on a "martial" class.

[the_archduke]

The only real problem I have with any of these is the last, and only because Dread and Warlord are both pretty active classes.

Except with Broken Dreams Style you use your devastating touch with any unarmed strike. +1d6+level per attack (and you can add Cha to that with a feat you get as a bonus feat). Think of Dread as the more passive side. Fear immunity, strips fear immunity from others. Has powers to manifest when punching the enemy in the face isn't an optimal tactic. Pairs well with Black Seraph

[Jack_Simth]

Oh yes, and there is, of course, the general gestalt advice:

1) Avoid MAD, look for SAD. Sure, that Paladin//Wizard looks great on paper... but to play him as a Paladin and a Wizard, you need Str (melee), Dex (AC, as you can't use armor), Con (HP), Int (Spells), Wis (Spells again), and Cha (Various Paladin class features). The Paladin//Oracle, on the other hand, is no more MAD than a normal Paladin (Str for melee, Con for HP, charisma for spells and Paladin class features, maybe a touch of Wis for Paladin spells - no need for Dex, as you've got heavy armor proficiency).

2) Watch the Action Economy, look for passive/active combinations. Sure, that Sorcerer//Oracle looks good on paper (ALL THE SPELLS ALL THE TIME), but it doesn't work out that way generally - both classes are competing for the same set of actions, so you're not really significantly better than a normal Oracle or a normal Sorcerer. Something like a Rogue//Druid, on the other hand, is passively adding sneak attack dice to the multiple natural attacks + Pounce that the Druid gets through Wildshape; as a combat druid, it's all using the same set of actions at once. An Oracle//Paladin gets a lot of nice passive benefits from the Paladin side (Divine grace, swift-action self healing, heavy armor proficiency, full BAB, d10 HD), and can do some very active stuff with the Oracle side (spells and/or long-term buffs to wade into melee).

3) Avoid class features that interfere with each other. Sure, that Sorcerer//Paladin looks pretty good... but it's hard to cast Arcane spells in heavy armor, so you need to either give up much of the Sorcerer casting, or you need to give up much of the cheap AC that comes from heavy armor that the Paladin side lets you use. If you use a Divine caster instead of an Arcane one, however, there's no problems casting in armor.

4) Make sure to end up with a nice chassis. Yes, that Wizard//Sorcerer ends up with ultimate arcane might... but it's a d6 hit die, one good save, and poor BAB. You want at least two good saves (and can usually get three), a d8 hit die (although d10 is better), and at least medium BAB. That Druid//Rogue gets a d8 HD, all good saves, and medium BAB. That Paladin//Oracle gets d10 HD, two good saves, and full BAB.

5) The game still rewards specialization. Unless you're short party members, don't try to be a Jack of all trades, as you're likely to end up a master of none. You've only got one set of feats, one allocation of wealth, and so on. A Paladin//oracle and an Oracle//paladin look very similar if that's all you know about them, but they're actually quite different. The first uses Oracle buffs to supplement the Paladin abilities and wade into melee, and picks up feats and items primarily related to melee (so Power Attack, cleave, a nice sword, good armor, and so on). The second uses Paladin benefits to be able to slack off on a few things the Oracle would otherwise need while the Oracle zaps away with spells (so metamagic, extra revelation, Charisma boosters, metamagic rods, and so on). They play quite differently. If you try to be a full Oracle//Paladin, however, your feats and wealth are going to be stretched quite thin, and you'll be less useful at either role.

Edit: Oh yes, and you may have problems obeying all of these completely. That's actually OK. You'll usually end up not using at least some class features - for instance, that Oracle//paladin isn't going to be getting much use out of that full BAB, due to how easy it is to land (ranged) touch spells. It's still a strong combination. All else being equal, the more of these you can follow, and the better you can follow them, the stronger overall the character. However: Character power does not trump player or DM fun. It's hard to stress that enough. You're playing a game with no real stakes. The only true definition of winning is "Did everyone have consequence-free fun?" If the answer is yes, then you won. If the answer is no, then you lost. In the end, your character doesn't really matter: You do, and your friends do. If everyone has fun playing a party of bards that get TPK'd every other session? That's a win. If everyone has fun playing a party of optimized characters that roll over CR+10 encounters? That's a win too. If someone at the table is perpetually bored with the uber-characters, that's a loss. If something in-game breaks a real-life friendship, that's a loss too. Know your actual priorities.

[Captain Morgan]

Great advice from Jack Smith. Some examples I like:

Paladin/Oracle. Lots of fun options, including the Oradin build dialed up to 11 making you the Ulitmate healer while still kicking ass. Or the Lore mystery, making you very, very SAD, great Knowledge checks, and an ass kicker.

Conversion Inquistion Infiltrator Inquisitor/Zen Archer. All of the things are now based on WIS, including WIS twice to face skills. Flurry of Bows and Bane add up to insane damage. Consider other archetypes for trading in solo tactics and possibly Judgement.

Warpriest/Monk or Ranger. You'll still suffer from some of the MAD Monk problems, but you qualify for Guided Hand to try and alleviate that. Not sure whether it works better as Sacred Fist/Master of Many Styles or a vanilla Warpriest/Unchained or what yet. But Warpriest is a great addition on any martial that isn't already using it's swift actions every round. The Ranger will especially appreciate the better will saves, and helps on the skill front. A Guided Hand archer who dumps DEX and wears heavy armor would be hilarious and be a potent switch hitter.

Ranger/Inquisitor. These classes cover a lot of the same bases but it's impressive how many of their features stack.

[Florian]

Hm... No, I can´t agree fully with the thoughts there.

Not everything that makes a good dipping-based build will make a good gestalt build. Oradin? Fine. Oracle//Paladin? No really bringing anything new to the table.

Just as an example: The Magus can pick an Arcana that lets you combine Arcane Pool with a Ki Pool. Another Arcana lets you tread regular Sorc/Wiz spells as Magus spells for Spellstrike/Spell Combat. And so on.
So, for example, Magus//Wizard is not only interesting because both re INT-based arcane casters, but because you could actually use your Wizard stuff to actually gish with it.

Now the actual list of classes with such types of synergies is very small.

[Captain Morgan]

Hm... No, I can´t agree fully with the thoughts there.

Not everything that makes a good dipping-based build will make a good gestalt build. Oradin? Fine. Oracle//Paladin? No really bringing anything new to the table..

Seriously? Consider the Paladin as the chassis, and consider it a martial character, with full BAB, Smite Evil, and buffs like Blessing of Fervor and Divine Power. Yes, their is action economy issues, but no more so than your average warrior oracle/cleric, which plenty of people use. You also get that 9th level casting outside of battle to help with condition removal and what not. And let's look at what you can get from mysteries:

Dual Cursed: Rerolls! Misfortune all day.

Lore:
*CHA to AC and reflex
* CHA to Knowledge checks
*+20 to INT based skills
* +4 to INT
* Arcane spell list access

Dark Tapestry:
*Flight. Hell yeah.
*Enough Beast Shape to last all combats in the day. Smite Evil and 4 or more natural weapons is broken.
*Dark Vision which pierces Deeper Darkness.


Metal:
*Armor training, essentially.
*Faster movement.
*Stone skin with no cost.
*Scaling weapon of any form you fancy, which eventually becomes adamantine.

Battle:
*5 free feats.
*Enlarge person.
*Surprising Charge.
*Roll 2 or 3 times on every initiative check.
*Various resiliency boosters.

Lunar:
*CHA to AC and reflex.
*Beastshape.
*Natural weapon growth.
*Animal companion!

This is just off the top of my head. And not getting into archetypes like Spirit Guide or Warsighted to trade revelations for other sexy features. It's not Wizard/Magus, but your bringing plenty to the table.

[Peat]

Hm... No, I can´t agree fully with the thoughts there.

Not everything that makes a good dipping-based build will make a good gestalt build. Oradin? Fine. Oracle//Paladin? No really bringing anything new to the table.

Just as an example: The Magus can pick an Arcana that lets you combine Arcane Pool with a Ki Pool. Another Arcana lets you tread regular Sorc/Wiz spells as Magus spells for Spellstrike/Spell Combat. And so on.
So, for example, Magus//Wizard is not only interesting because both re INT-based arcane casters, but because you could actually use your Wizard stuff to actually gish with it.

Now the actual list of classes with such types of synergies is very small.

I think you may be setting the bar a little high for a good gestalt build if you think Oracle/Paladin doesn't count as one :smalltongue:

I'd also be quite intrigued to hear what examples of good gestalt builds you have other than Magus/Wizard that meet this bar of being synergistic, rather than merely getting two different sets of abilities that mostly cover and compliment each other (instead of redundancy) while avoiding MAD.


Side note - any good ideas for a PF gestalt that uses Barbarian (and not Urban Barbarian)? I'm guessing the Rage makes it pretty difficult for most of the standards, but there has to be something interesting going...

[the_archduke]

Barbarian//Oracle with the lame curse is immune to fatigue. Use oracle spells out of combat, long term buffs, and/or the Moment of Clarity rage power. Rage prophet without all the suck

Though this would be better as a Bloodrager//Oracle using the same principles and more CHA synergy

[Grod_The_Giant]

Side note - any good ideas for a PF gestalt that uses Barbarian (and not Urban Barbarian)? I'm guessing the Rage makes it pretty difficult for most of the standards, but there has to be something interesting going...
Maybe a Hyde-build Alchemist? Extracts are pretty much like portions, which a Barbarian can still use while rageing, I believe. Even if not, long-lasting buffs, mutagen and sneak attack (via Vivisectionist) should go well for you.

Otherwise, something like Rogue or Slayer might work well. Maybe a Skirmisher Ranger. Something with skills and bonus damage.

[avr]

There are so many things you can do that you need to focus a bit more than 'has synergy in gestalt'. Do you want to be sneaky, or kill things with a sword, control the battlefield like a mini-god, or a bit of a couple or of many things?

Also, one of the common uses of gestalt is to make sure all bases are covered in a small (1-3 person) party. What bases do you need to cover?

Another possibility is that the GM just wants to see versatile rather than specialised characters. Creating a gestalt guy who is a master of combat with a rapier but lacks skills or spells (seen it done) really misses the point there.

[icefractal]

Synthesist // Dips is one option. There are plenty of abilities you can get from a level or two that would benefit your ass-kicking, like Oracle to get Cha-to-AC, Brawler to get floating feats, Barbarian for Rage, Alchemist for Mutagens, etc.

Gunslinger // Vivisectionist Alchemist (with the Sap Master feats) would be rather brutally effective, and the Alchemist part would add some versatility.

If the rules for playing as monsters are being used (ECL = CR), then Monster // Caster is almost certainly the strongest option. Or really, Monster // Almost Anything.

[Pex]

If allowed Dreamscarred Press . . .

Cleric (or Oracle of Life)/Vitalist is the supreme in healing. Channel Energy for Xd6. For every individual in your collective who doesn't need healing, they allow you to distribute their Xd6 healing to someone else. There is you and two others in your collective when you channel, lets say for 5d6. Only one person needs healing. You can heal that person for 15d6 of healing. Also, through your collective, all your healing spells are now done at a range.

[Jack_Simth]

Hm... No, I can´t agree fully with the thoughts there.

Not everything that makes a good dipping-based build will make a good gestalt build. Oradin? Fine. Oracle//Paladin? No really bringing anything new to the table.Well, I'm being simplistic because I'd rather not spend ten pages on builds. You can do an Oracle//Monk-1/Paladin-2/Wizard-1/Rogue-X if you like. Of course, you can also do a Monk-1/Paladin-2/Wizard-1/Oracle-X in a normal game. The advice I'm handing out is specific to gestalt, and does not override the normal character advice, it supplements it. The example builds are simplified for the sake of brevity.

And an Oracle//Paladin really does bring a lot to the table that a Paladin-2/Oracle-X does not. Swift action self-healing from Lay on of Hands (the 1d6 from just two levels of Paladin is somewhat pointless), a poke-mount for if you went with the Lame curse, Mercies to cut down on how many of the fix-it spells you need to take, access to the Ultimate Mercy feat to reduce the price of your companions dying, and so on.

If the rules for playing as monsters are being used (ECL = CR), then Monster // Caster is almost certainly the strongest option. Or really, Monster // Almost Anything.
Yes, "Know how your DM feels about Monstrous PC's" should probably be on the list too. Of course, the effectiveness of that varies greatly based on starting level (the 1st level recommendations for such are significantly different from the 10th level recommendations, and generally speaking you can't just upgrade your race as you level).

[Grod_The_Giant]

Well, I'm being simplistic because I'd rather not spend ten pages on builds. You can do an Oracle//Monk-1/Paladin-2/Wizard-1/Rogue-X if you like. Of course, you can also do a Monk-1/Paladin-2/Wizard-1/Oracle-X in a normal game.
That's kind of a simplification. Take the following 10 level build*:
Paladin 2 (Serenity feat, Wis to saves)
Monk 1 (Zen Archery feat, Wis to AC and ranged attack)
<Fighter 2, Soulblade 2>
Shiba Protector 1 (Wis to attack and damage)
Soulbow 2 (Wis to ranged damage)
You're incredibly Wisdom-SAD: you're adding the stat to attack and damage twice, to AC and to all your saves. But that's pretty all you've got-- all that dipping leaves you virtually no level-relevant class abilities. I wouldn't want to play the above character, for instance. (It can also easily leave your BAB in the trash if you're not playing by fractional rules-- this build winds up with +6 at 10th level as a primary combatant).

But. In gestalt. In gestalt you can slap Cleric on the other side of that. Now you're a full caster and using your casting stat for EVERYTHING. Or Druid-- same idea. You want a nice passive class/build on one side of your gestalt, after all. Dipping like mad doesn't cost you anything.



*May not have the feats to be 100% legal, I didn't check. It's not the point here. Also 3.5 because I know the system better.

[Gnaeus]

Oh yes, and there is, of course, the general gestalt advice:

1) Avoid MAD, look for SAD. Sure, that Paladin//Wizard looks great on paper... but to play him as a Paladin and a Wizard, you need Str (melee), Dex (AC, as you can't use armor), Con (HP), Int (Spells), Wis (Spells again), and Cha (Various Paladin class features). The Paladin//Oracle, on the other hand, is no more MAD than a normal Paladin (Str for melee, Con for HP, charisma for spells and Paladin class features, maybe a touch of Wis for Paladin spells - no need for Dex, as you've got heavy armor proficiency)

I think this advice is often overemphasized, because a Wizard//Paladin should not be played as a paladin and a wizard. He is probably just a Wizard with full bab, better HP and saves. He MAY be a paladin with stoneskin and quickened shield (although the other way is better). The first way, Str is irrelevant. Con is less relevant than for generic wizard. You want decent Cha for saves, but can then dump Wis. The other way, you do want Int, but only enough to give you access to spells of your highest level, since your DCs won't matter much, and you can cover gaps with spells.

Moreover, there are lots of classes that you don't really CARE what their prime stat is. Sure, Summoner is cha focused, but you could ignore cha, just take it for the eidolon, and it would still be a superior gestalt combo. There are lots of classes where the stat just sets your save DCs, and if you are using the class passively, that may not matter at all. Wizard//Monk, for example, can use a good Str or Wis, but hardly needs them, when what monk is really giving you is all good saves, evasion, better skills and hp, etc. Several of the other listed options, like Daevic, can safely ignore their main stat completely, just by taking powers that do not use it.

[Jack_Simth]

That's kind of a simplification.I did write that I was being simplistic. You even quoted me on it. You can definitely look through the X-stat to Y-Bonus thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?125732-3-x-X-stat-to-Y-bonus) (there may be a more recent version; that's just the first one that came up on Google) and make a mega-dip build as the passive side for whatever your primary uses most. Nothing stopping you except house rules, table expectations, or campaign expectations (which, of course, vary rather widely by table and campaign).

I might also point out that with Wisdom to attack and damage twice, you can make a reasonably potent ranged striker in a normal game at most levels. Sure, you don't have much else in the way of class features, but you've chosen hitting often and hard from a distance as your class features, and they're not bad ones so long as your DM doesn't negate archery or damage. Given that this is Pathfinder-specific, you can also add in Deadly Aim (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/deadly-aim-combat) to substitute for Power Attack.

I think this advice is often overemphasized, because a Wizard//Paladin should not be played as a paladin and a wizard. He is probably just a Wizard with full bab, better HP and saves. He MAY be a paladin with stoneskin and quickened shield (although the other way is better). The first way, Str is irrelevant. Con is less relevant than for generic wizard. You want decent Cha for saves, but can then dump Wis. The other way, you do want Int, but only enough to give you access to spells of your highest level, since your DCs won't matter much, and you can cover gaps with spells.

That is... pretty much covered in my item 5 and the edit. I may have numbered them for easy reference, but they're not in any particular order.


Moreover, there are lots of classes that you don't really CARE what their prime stat is. Sure, Summoner is cha focused, but you could ignore cha, just take it for the eidolon, and it would still be a superior gestalt combo. There are lots of classes where the stat just sets your save DCs, and if you are using the class passively, that may not matter at all. Wizard//Monk, for example, can use a good Str or Wis, but hardly needs them, when what monk is really giving you is all good saves, evasion, better skills and hp, etc. Several of the other listed options, like Daevic, can safely ignore their main stat completely, just by taking powers that do not use it.
Well, yes, there are classes that are effectively NAD (non-attribute dependant); Rogue is one of them, Warlock is another; also Dragonfire Adept and probably a few others.

[Florian]

I think you may be setting the bar a little high for a good gestalt build if you think Oracle/Paladin doesn't count as one :smalltongue:

I'd also be quite intrigued to hear what examples of good gestalt builds you have other than Magus/Wizard that meet this bar of being synergistic, rather than merely getting two different sets of abilities that mostly cover and compliment each other (instead of redundancy) while avoiding MAD.

Nah, I'm just looking at three things that PF provides and that Gestalt should compare to:
- VMC
- True Gishes (Bloodrager, Magus, Warpriest)
- True Pet classes (Hunter, Spiritualist, Summoner)

The first point is concerned with sticking options to your main class, the second simplifies your economy of action by letting you do two relevant things at the same time, cast and fight, the third point doubles your economy of actions from the get-go.

(No, I don't count Cavalier, Druid, Paladin or Ranger to the True Pet classes, as their Companions are either too limited in form or have only a limited set of actions availlable)

You can always stick one of the better "passive" classes (Cavalier, Fighter, (Un)Rogue, Slayer) in a gestalt and profit from it, working like a bit of souped-up VMC or you pick a full-caster to expand your casting options, but that's akin to your typical 16BAB/18CL Sorcerdin and doesn't come close to the other two benchmark points I mentioned.

So, the actual List of "good synergistic" builds for a gestalt looks rather small:
- Unchained Monk//Ninja. Lots of Qinggong powers, double the Ki pool, double the Ki options.

- Magus//Wizard. Alread discussed.

- Ranger//Wizard-Arcane Archer. Pick Favoured Enemy Spellcasting more than once. Does the gish routine and has a Companion.

- Barbarian//Skald. Sing and Fight. Good synergy on Intimidating the heck out of people, fun with Dirge of Doom. Moment of Clarity is key here.

- Magus (Eldritch Scion)//Bloodrager. More rage, more casting, double the gish.

- Inquisitor//Warpriest. Can fire up nearly all class features across the board. Slap on Animal or Feather domain and go.

- Barbarian//Mesmerist. Works, stacks, ragecycles like a pro....

- Magus (Myrmidarch)//Alchemist. Yes, Bombs are weapon. Ranged Spellstrike with bombs is a nice feature. Supllement with WepSpec and Weapon Training for more fun.

A very fringe case: Mesmerist//Sorcerer (Psychic Bloodline) w. heavy focus on Binding spells. Remove everything that might hinder you by staring at it.

[Gnaeus]

That is... pretty much covered in my item 5 and the edit. I may have numbered them for easy reference, but they're not in any particular order.


And when I said that this advice is given too often, I was indicating that I was not strictly responding to you, but to this advice as frequently given. Attribute considerations are usually pretty low in the list of good gestalting tips.

[Florian]

And when I said that this advice is given too often, I was indicating that I was not strictly responding to you, but to this advice as frequently given. Attribute considerations are usually pretty low in the list of good gestalting tips.

They may be good if we'd be talking about PB10 or 15. Outside of wanting to have two full casting classes both powered up fully (mostly high DCs), it's creating your single main point of weakness. Take one hit to your chosen SAD attribute, and overall competence will take a sharp drop.

[Captain Morgan]

Nah, I'm just looking at three things that PF provides and that Gestalt should compare to:
- VMC
- True Gishes (Bloodrager, Magus, Warpriest)
- True Pet classes (Hunter, Spiritualist, Summoner)

The first point is concerned with sticking options to your main class, the second simplifies your economy of action by letting you do two relevant things at the same time, cast and fight, the third point doubles your economy of actions from the get-go.

(No, I don't count Cavalier, Druid, Paladin or Ranger to the True Pet classes, as their Companions are either too limited in form or have only a limited set of actions availlable)

You can always stick one of the better "passive" classes (Cavalier, Fighter, (Un)Rogue, Slayer) in a gestalt and profit from it, working like a bit of souped-up VMC or you pick a full-caster to expand your casting options, but that's akin to your typical 16BAB/18CL Sorcerdin and doesn't come close to the other two benchmark points I mentioned.

So, the actual List of "good synergistic" builds for a gestalt looks rather small:
- Unchained Monk//Ninja. Lots of Qinggong powers, double the Ki pool, double the Ki options.

- Magus//Wizard. Alread discussed.

- Ranger//Wizard-Arcane Archer. Pick Favoured Enemy Spellcasting more than once. Does the gish routine and has a Companion.

- Barbarian//Skald. Sing and Fight. Good synergy on Intimidating the heck out of people, fun with Dirge of Doom. Moment of Clarity is key here.

- Magus (Eldritch Scion)//Bloodrager. More rage, more casting, double the gish.

- Inquisitor//Warpriest. Can fire up nearly all class features across the board. Slap on Animal or Feather domain and go.

- Barbarian//Mesmerist. Works, stacks, ragecycles like a pro....

- Magus (Myrmidarch)//Alchemist. Yes, Bombs are weapon. Ranged Spellstrike with bombs is a nice feature. Supllement with WepSpec and Weapon Training for more fun.

A very fringe case: Mesmerist//Sorcerer (Psychic Bloodline) w. heavy focus on Binding spells. Remove everything that might hinder you by staring at it.

I feel like all of these are functional, but a couple don't compare to your Magus/Wizard combo. Skald/Barbarian and Monk/Ninja can be excellent at doing what they do but aren't particularly superior to a Paladin/Oracle. Smite + Natural weapons wrecks face as well as any of them, better saves, and 9th level is better than having tons of skills.

Also, the base Inquisitor wouldn't be my pick for the Warpriest, compared to say a Ranger. You aren't getting full BAB or a good reflex save. But the larger issue is the Swift action competition. The Warpriest could probably already cast a useful self-buff every turn. Bane is better than many of them, granted, but you are going to be multiple turns into combat before you have all your battle features online, unless you cast with a standard. In which case you should probably just be a Cleric so you get a better spell progression. Where as the bonus feats, full BAB, and favored enemy bonuses from the Ranger are just on.

Now, the Sacred Huntmaster/Warpriest would be a different story. Beefier animal companion than you get through the Feather Domain, with a free flexible scaling stat bonus for both of you, and sharing teamwork feats? Teamwork feats are again, always on, and you can do sick nasty things with them to generate AoOs and whatnot. You could probably swap Inquisitor entirely for Hunter. You'll miss Bane, but better Animal Focus will help offset that, and the Hunter spell list probably overlaps less with the Cleric list. You'l have much less swift action competition and jump straight to wrecking face with your flanking buddy.

[the_archduke]

In a low/no wealth campaign it would be hard to beat Soulknife//Aegis

[Grod_The_Giant]

So, the actual List of "good synergistic" builds for a gestalt looks rather small:
You missed Gunslinger//Swashbuckler//Sleuth Investigator (pick 2) for double grit/panache/luck. Not necessarily good, any of them, but hey, synergy.


...Actually, Inspired Blade Swashbuckler//Sleuth, Empiricist Investigator would make a pretty respectable mundane bad***, now that I think about it. Huge skill list with the best nonmagical support in the game, full BAB augmented by Studied Combat and Precise Strike, Investigator Talents for noncombat and Deeds for combat, all fueled by Int+2*Cha luck/panache points and easy access to Fencing Grace... I'd play it. (I mean, Inspired Blade Swashbuckler//non-Sleuth Investigator would be significantly better, because magic is always better than no magic, but hey. Bonus points if you refluff your extracts as mixed drinks)

[the_archduke]

Gunslinger//Stalker

Since pistols and muskets are x4 crits, your deadly strike would be d10s. All you would need is Wis/Dex

[Florian]

@Grod the Giant:

Careful there. Sleuth and Swashbuckler use the same pool put don't stack up because of double CHA. Both would stack fine with the Gunslinger, that pool being WIS-based, though.
I didn't include that combination in my list, especially not the Sleuth, because I've got the feeling that you'll be locked in to some weird behaviour then.
(You know, like buying you wizard buddy a wand of summon minor animals so you can regain some luck by slaughtering guinea pigs before entering a negotaiation or something)

@Captain Morgan:

The question was whether I'm setting the bar too high. The list simply should prove that I don't and the stuff I named works with minimal investment beyond, say, either picking an archetype or spending a talent or something.
Naturally, there's room for more optimization there and I fully agree that there're enough combos that bring the right amount of raw power to be en par with that.

Where I do disagree is with your assessment of the Inqusitor. I do like TWFing with dual-kukris here, picking up the Dual Bane, Extra Bane and Instant Judgement feats along the way to declutter the economy of actions here. Kurkis and Sacred Weapons mesh extremely well. In a rather tough fight, you mostly will start combat with a standard action spell: Wrath anyways and fire up your banes.

(For an evil-ish campaign, I'd do Warpriest (Mantis Zealot)//Inquisitor-Red Mantis Assassin. Works in a similiar way.)

[squiggit]

Nevermind.

[Florian]

Separate pools. You add your Luck, Panache and Grit (etc.) together if you have multiple pools from the same sources.

In fact, the sidebar on grit, luck and panache stacking explicitly mentions sleuth/swashbucklers getting double charisma to their pool as an example.

Grit, Luck, and Panache: Grit, luck, and panache represent three different means by which heroes can gain access to the same heroic pool, using it to accomplish fantastic feats. For characters with a mix of grit, luck, and panache, they pool the three resources together into a combined pool. (Those who use panache and luck do not gain twice their Charisma bonus in their pool.) For feats, magic items, and other effects, a panache user can spend and gain luck points in place of grit or panache points, and vice versa.

.... so nope, they explicitly don't gain twice their CHA to the pool, instead keeping the "minimum of one" from one pool and add that to the other pool.

[squiggit]

You're right I read that completely backwards.

[Florian]

You're right I read that completely backwards.

Jupp. That's why I actually think they hinder each other more than they synergize.

@Topic:

One combination that I actually would chose for myself if I were to play a gestalt game would be: Arcanist - Arclord of Nex//Medium(Nexian Channeler)

(Do you like Constructs? Maybe even robots? Do you like crafting them quicker and cheaper but do you hate losing them in combat? Fear not! Park them in your private demiplane and summon shadow clones of them to your side, again and again and again...
Edit: That'll get ridiculous fast once you learn the Simullacrum spell and keep copies of your fellow party members, Great Old Ones and Demons Lords in stow)

[Grod_The_Giant]

Grit, Luck, and Panache: Grit, luck, and panache represent three different means by which heroes can gain access to the same heroic pool, using it to accomplish fantastic feats. For characters with a mix of grit, luck, and panache, they pool the three resources together into a combined pool. (Those who use panache and luck do not gain twice their Charisma bonus in their pool.) For feats, magic items, and other effects, a panache user can spend and gain luck points in place of grit or panache points, and vice versa.
What? The source I'm looking at says the opposite:

For characters with a mix of grit, luck, and panache, they pool the resources together into a combined pool. ( Those who use panache and luck gain twice their Charisma bonus in their pool.)
But in any case, Inspired Blade gets their Int to the pool as well, which a Sleuth loves, and Sleuths are actually the only ones who can get their points back nonviolently- they just have to roll a 6 when using Inspiration, or a 20 on a Knowledge or Sense Motive check.

[Krazzman]

Things that we currently play:
In my campaign:
Magus//Slayer
Nature Fang Druid//Brawler (with custom Archetype)

Wifes character in Solo Campaign:
Barbarian//Heretic Inquisitor (need to get Melee, Healing and Skillmonkey in one charcter).

My attempt for a solo campaign:
Cleric//Brawler or Cleric//Slayer. Couldn't play it though.

[grarrrg]

Huh.
It's been this long and no one has brought up the Gundolon.
Mysterious Stranger Gunslinger//Synthesist Summoner
Focus on CHA. Buy a LOT of Limbs (Arms).
Shoot a metric ton of bullets every round, each shot gets CHA to damage for just 1 Grit per round. Each shot also gets DEX to damage when you hit level 9.

Can be a tiny bit pricey with ammo though.