Roguish Archetype: Parasite (Wildshaping Rogue)

[ji6]

This homebrew started when I wanted a nice way to multi-class rogue with druid in 5e, and decided that the combination is somewhat difficult to do without an archetype. I always love feedback, and feel free to comment on any thing!

I have now made a fancy pdf version of this archetype in photoshop:
Updated pdf as of Jan 19, 2016. Some problems doing beast chart as in PHB, so aborted for now. Added level 5 bonus action Wild Shape. Changed beasts natural attacks being magical to 11 instead of 12. Also, significantly changed design, including new front page art and editing second page art differently.

Current thoughts are altering Self-Preservation to function slightly better. The previous wording gave speak with animals as being able to be cast, and figuring out how best to make the ability fit.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B2yTAmTgu2XVdlNmZm5NN0dLcms/view?usp=sharing

========================

New Rogue Archetype

Parasite___________________
You siphon the power of nature to use it for your own needs. Those who adhere to this archetype range from outlaws who have been outcast from society and absorb energy from the ecosystem as sustenance, to rogues who have developed a grudge against Mother Nature herself. Utilizing abilities druids have long called their own, you enhance your own skills by shape-shifting into the very things you steal energy from.

Parasitic Disguise
When you choose this archetype at 3rd level, you learn to disguise yourself in new ways to blend in with your prey. You gain Wild Shape as the druid feature if you do not have it already. Treat your effective druid level as half your rogue level (rounded up) for the purpose of determining your wild shape feature. While in beast form, you can use all Rouge class features, such as Cunning Action, Uncanny Dodge, and Evasion. In addition, you treat your beast form's natural weapons as finesse weapons for the purpose of using sneak attack.
At 5th level, you gain the ability to use Wild Shape on your turn as a bonus action rather than an action.
At 11th level, your attacks in beast form count as magical for the purposes of overcoming resistance and immunity to nonmagical attacks and damage.

Feed
Starting at 3rd level, you uncover many dark secrets hidden within nature and can directly obtain sustenance from living creatures. You gain proficiency with the Nature skill. In addition, you can use the Attack action to make a melee spell attack (using your Wisdom modifier) against a living creature. On a successful hit, you deal your Wisdom modifier in necrotic damage to the target (minimum of 1 necrotic damage), and the energy provides nourishment for you as if it was a normal meal for your size. You may feed as many times as you like without penalty, and some parasites enjoy doing so, even when the excess nourishment is wasted.

Vector
At 9th level, you gain immunity to disease and can choose to wild shape into a diseased version of a beast you could normally take the form of. In this diseased form, a creature hit by your natural attack that deals piercing or slashing damage must make a Constitution saving throw (DC 8 + your proficiency bonus + your Wis modifier) or contract a disease. Until the disease is cured, the target can't regain hit points except by magical means, and the target's hit point maximum decreases by your Wisdom modifier (minimum of 1) every 24 hours. If the target's hit point maximum drops to 0 as a result of this disease, the target dies.

Self-Preservation
At 13th level, your absorption of natural energy has strengthened your domineering bond with nature to the extent that, while in beast form, you can comprehend and verbally communicate with beasts for the duration. Because animals can sense this massive natural energy you wield, you have advantage on Charisma (Intimidation) checks and Charisma (Persuasion) checks made to influence beasts you communicate with this way.

Swarming Tactics
At 17th level, you can transform the dying pieces of your beast form into a swarm of insects when destroyed. Upon taking damage to revert your body to its normal form while in beast form, you can use your reaction to collapse into a swarm of insects of your choice (centipedes, spiders, or wasps). You take no damage past the initial damage which knocked you out of beast form. You have no ability to influence or control the swarm of insects, although it will not attack you. The majority of the swarm remains in the square in which you collapsed in. During this time you and other individual members of the swarm scatter. On your turn, you can move using the swarm's movement speed and you are considered hidden, as the chaos of the swarm and your Tiny size prevents you from being targeted individually. After a minute, the entire swarm dissipates and you must either take on your normal form or adopt the giant version of your beast form (giant centipede, giant spider, or giant wasp). Treat being this creature as if you used wild shape to turn into it, but you do not expend a use of wild shape. Once you use this feature, you must finish a long rest before you can use it again.


========================

Below is the original flavor that people helped me check the abilities of.

Druidic Outcast___________________
You tap into the power of nature to aid your efforts. Those who follow this archetype are shapeshifters who utilize druidic magic to infiltrate and fight, often claiming their actions as revenge for the destruction of wildlife even if there is no truth in the statement. Many druids banished for not accepting teachings choose this path, as do would-be-rangers who have found a life robbing those in the cities much easier than surviving in the wilderness without any supplies.

Drudic
Starting at 3rd level, you know Drudic, the secret language of the druids (as described in the PHB).

Stolen Form
When you choose this archetype at 3rd level, you gain Wild Shape as the druid feature if you do not have it already. Consider your druid level for all requirements to be your half your rogue level (rounded up). At 12th level, your attacks in beast form count as magical for the purposes of overcoming resistance and immunity to nonmagical attacks and damage.

Plague Bearer
At 9th level, you gain immunity to disease and learn to utilize diseased versions of beasts in your wild shapes. Pouring this dark energy in your opponent's wounds, your attacks in beast form can inflict sneak attack damage. Sneak attack damage dealt this way deals necrotic damage.

Parasitism
At 13th level, other animals seek to appease you in order to preserve themselves. While in beast form, you can speak with animals as the spell, and animals that can hear you will do what they can to help you, within reason.

Swarming Tactics
At 17th level, upon taking damage to revert your body to its normal form while in beast form, you can as a reaction collapse into a swarm of CR 1/4 small beasts or below of your choice. You take no damage past the initial damage which knocked you out of beast form, and the swarm scatters, leaving you in a square of your choice within the creature's movement as one of the CR 1/4 creatures you choose and considered hidden. Treat being this creature as if you used wild shape to turn into it, but do not expend a usage of wild shape. Once you use this feature, you must finish a long rest before you can use it again.


Below are useful things people posted that I am unsure how/if I should use them.

This feature sounds freakin' amazing, but I had problems with how it felt with Swarming Tactics as the capstone. Certainly seems like a rogue could use their brains rather than silly magic for several abilities after reading this one.

Venomous
At 9th level, you gain immunity to poison damage and the poisoned condition. In addition, you learn to hide your deadliest attacks in the camouflage of nature. While you are in a beast form capable of making a bite, claw, or sting attack, you can cause your sneak attack to deal poison damage instead of normal weapon damage. A creature hit by such a sneak attack must also make a Constitution saving throw (DC 8 + your proficiency bonus + your Intelligence modifier) or gain the poisoned condition for 1 minute.

Finally, below is the original, so you can see how awesome the great people in the playground are to have helped me make this happen ^+^

Druidic Outcast___________________
You tap into the power of nature to aid your efforts. Those who follow this archetype are shapeshifters who utilize druidic magic to infiltrate and fight, often claiming their actions as revenge for the destruction of wildlife even if there is no truth in the statement. Many druids banished for not accepting teachings choose this path, as do would-be-rangers who have found a life robbing those in the cities much easier than surviving in the wilderness without any supplies.

Drudic
Starting at 3rd level, you know Drudic, the secret language of the druids (as described in the PHB).

Stolen Form
When you choose this archetype at 3rd level, you gain Wild Shape as the druid feature if you do not have it already. Consider your druid level for any requirements to be your rogue level. At 6th level, your attacks in beast form count as magical for the purposes of overcoming resistance and immunity to nonmagical attacks and damage.

Plague Bearer
At 9th level, you gain immunity to disease and learn to utilize diseased versions of beasts in your wild shapes. Once per turn, your attacks in beast form deal, in addition to their regular damage, necrotic damage equal to your sneak attack damage.

Parasitism
At 13th level, other animals seek to appease you in order to preserve themselves. While in beast form, you can speak with animals as the spell, and animals that can hear you are considered friendly acquaintances.

Swarming Tactics
At 17th level, upon taking damage to revert your body to its normal form while in beast form, you can as a reaction collapse into a swarm of CR 1/4 creatures or below of your choice. You take no damage past the initial damage which knocked you out of beast form, and the swarm randomly scatters, leaving you in a square of your choice within the creature's movement and considered hidden.

[khadgar567]

Hey, I was trying to figure out a nice way to multi-class rogue with druid in 5e, and decided that the combination is somewhat difficult to do without an archetype. As I really only wanted the wildshape feature, I was hoping that people could go over this proposed archetype with me to see if it seemed reasonable, overpowered, or underpowered.

========================

New Rogue Archetype

Druidic Outcast___________________
You tap into the power of nature to aid your efforts. Those who follow this archetype are shapeshifters who utilize druidic magic to infiltrate and fight, often claiming their actions as revenge for the destruction of wildlife even if there is no truth in the statement. Many druids banished for not accepting teachings choose this path, as do would-be-rangers who have found a life robbing those in the cities much easier than surviving in the wilderness without any supplies.

Drudic
Starting at 3rd level, you know Drudic, the secret language of the druids (as described in the PHB).

Stolen Form
When you choose this archetype at 3rd level, you gain Wild Shape as the druid feature if you do not have it already. Consider your druid level for any requirements to be your rogue level. At 6th level, your attacks in beast form count as magical for the purposes of overcoming resistance and immunity to nonmagical attacks and damage.

Plague Bearer
At 9th level, you gain immunity to disease and learn to utilize diseased versions of beasts in your wild shapes. Once per turn, your attacks in beast form deal, in addition to their regular damage, necrotic damage equal to your sneak attack damage.

Parasitism
At 13th level, other animals seek to appease you in order to preserve themselves. While in beast form, you can speak with animals as the spell, and animals that can hear you are considered friendly acquaintances.

Swarming Tactics
At 17th level, upon taking damage to revert your body to its normal form while in beast form, you can as a reaction collapse into a swarm of CR 1/4 creatures or below of your choice. You take no damage past the initial damage which knocked you out of beast form, and the swarm randomly scatters, leaving you in a square of your choice within the creature's movement and considered hidden.

looks good as nature based avenger nice work

[JNAProductions]

Hey, I was trying to figure out a nice way to multi-class rogue with druid in 5e, and decided that the combination is somewhat difficult to do without an archetype. As I really only wanted the wildshape feature, I was hoping that people could go over this proposed archetype with me to see if it seemed reasonable, overpowered, or underpowered.

========================

New Rogue Archetype

Druidic Outcast___________________
You tap into the power of nature to aid your efforts. Those who follow this archetype are shapeshifters who utilize druidic magic to infiltrate and fight, often claiming their actions as revenge for the destruction of wildlife even if there is no truth in the statement. Many druids banished for not accepting teachings choose this path, as do would-be-rangers who have found a life robbing those in the cities much easier than surviving in the wilderness without any supplies.

Drudic
Starting at 3rd level, you know Drudic, the secret language of the druids (as described in the PHB).

Seems fine to me.

Stolen Form
When you choose this archetype at 3rd level, you gain Wild Shape as the druid feature if you do not have it already. Consider your druid level for any requirements to be your rogue level. At 6th level, your attacks in beast form count as magical for the purposes of overcoming resistance and immunity to nonmagical attacks and damage.

This is WAY TOO MUCH. You're giving all of wildshape to the rogue.

Plague Bearer
At 9th level, you gain immunity to disease and learn to utilize diseased versions of beasts in your wild shapes. Once per turn, your attacks in beast form deal, in addition to their regular damage, necrotic damage equal to your sneak attack damage.

The immunity is mostly fluff, and is fine. The sneak attack necrotic, though, is too much, since it DOES NOT require advantage or flanking. It can be done even with disadvantage, which regular sneak attacks cannot. This feature needs some tweaking.

Parasitism
At 13th level, other animals seek to appease you in order to preserve themselves. While in beast form, you can speak with animals as the spell, and animals that can hear you are considered friendly acquaintances.

Seems kinda odd. They're clearly scared of you, so friendly acquaintances aren't the words I'd use. Perhaps rephrase it as "Will do their best to aid you, within reason".

Swarming Tactics
At 17th level, upon taking damage to revert your body to its normal form while in beast form, you can as a reaction collapse into a swarm of CR 1/4 creatures or below of your choice. You take no damage past the initial damage which knocked you out of beast form, and the swarm randomly scatters, leaving you in a square of your choice within the creature's movement and considered hidden.

Alright, that's just super cool. However, as written, this is usable at will. That is broken, because it makes you basically immune to any single attack per turn, and damn hard to target for a multiattack. However, I assume this is supposed to be once per long rest, in which case it's fine.

Overall, this is a bit OP and needs to be toned down. However, it's a cool concept, and there are some really neat abilities.

[ji6]

looks good as nature based avenger nice work

Thank you! I honestly had to google what an Avenger was as I did not play much of 4e (I jumped from 3.5 to Pathfinder to 5e), but that certainly does seem like a cool class!


is WAY TOO MUCH. You're giving all of wildshape to the rogue.

Is that too strong? I figured since I only gave them the base wild shape (i.e. the one land druids can use that maxes out at CR 1 creatures at level 8) it was not too bad. Should I reduce it to smaller than CR 1 creatures? If so, how much smaller should the CR be? I mean, below CR 1, there are not many forms that seem combat ready, and I kinda thought it seemed cool to have a diseased wolf as one of the preferred combat forms after level 8 :P.


The immunity [from Plague Bearer] is mostly fluff, and is fine. The sneak attack necrotic, though, is too much, since it DOES NOT require advantage or flanking. It can be done even with disadvantage, which regular sneak attacks cannot. This feature needs some tweaking.

True. I think I should just make this have to fulfill the same requirements as normal sneak attack, as that was my original intention.


[Parasitism] Seems kinda odd. They're clearly scared of you, so friendly acquaintances aren't the words I'd use. Perhaps rephrase it as "Will do their best to aid you, within reason".

Seems reasonable. I kinda wanted to leave room for a person to actually be a friendly druid rather than the darker tones this applies, which was why the friendly acquaintances wording came in.


Alright, [Swarming Tactics is] just super cool. However, as written, this is usable at will. That is broken, because it makes you basically immune to any single attack per turn, and damn hard to target for a multiattack. However, I assume this is supposed to be once per long rest, in which case it's fine.

Thanks ^+^. [S]Yeah, I meant once per long rest. I think I should work on the wording a little too, as I think it is rather unclear around the edges now that I am reading it again. Does it seem alright to tie this with wild shape uses instead? So, essentially once per short rest (as you have two wild shape uses)? I could not find a nice way to word it to be once per long rest, and was worried about it being initially unclear on whether you were hidden as that CR 1/4 creature or as yourself.

EDIT: I have made edits to my original post based on this feedback. Hopefully it seems better now xD

[JNAProductions]

Hey, I was trying to figure out a nice way to multi-class rogue with druid in 5e, and decided that the combination is somewhat difficult to do without an archetype. As I really only wanted the wildshape feature, I was hoping that people could go over this proposed archetype with me to see if it seemed reasonable, overpowered, or underpowered.

========================

New Rogue Archetype

Druidic Outcast___________________
You tap into the power of nature to aid your efforts. Those who follow this archetype are shapeshifters who utilize druidic magic to infiltrate and fight, often claiming their actions as revenge for the destruction of wildlife even if there is no truth in the statement. Many druids banished for not accepting teachings choose this path, as do would-be-rangers who have found a life robbing those in the cities much easier than surviving in the wilderness without any supplies.

Drudic
Starting at 3rd level, you know Drudic, the secret language of the druids (as described in the PHB).

Stolen Form
When you choose this archetype at 3rd level, you gain Wild Shape as the druid feature if you do not have it already. Consider your druid level for any requirements to be your rogue level. At 6th level, your attacks in beast form count as magical for the purposes of overcoming resistance and immunity to nonmagical attacks and damage.

Say, half your level. And Make 12th level magical natural attacks. That'd be a bit better.

Plague Bearer
At 9th level, you gain immunity to disease and learn to utilize diseased versions of beasts in your wild shapes. Exploiting this energy to strike more powerfully, your attacks in beast form can deal, in addition to their normal damage, necrotic damage equal to your sneak attack damage if you have advantage on the attack role or if another enemy of the target is within 5 feet of it.

Much better. And comes with a nice little penalty-necrotic is relatively commonly resisted.

Parasitism
At 13th level, other animals seek to appease you in order to preserve themselves. While in beast form, you can speak with animals as the spell, and animals that can hear you will do what they can to help you, within reason.

No issues here.

Swarming Tactics
At 17th level, upon taking damage to revert your body to its normal form while in beast form, you can as a reaction expend a use of wild-shape to collapse into a swarm of CR 1/4 small beasts or below of your choice. You take no damage past the initial damage which knocked you out of beast form, and the swarm scatters, leaving you in a square of your choice within the creature's movement as one of the CR 1/4 creatures you choose and considered hidden.

Do you know what would make this balanced? Either once per long rest OR you get stuck in CR 1/4 form and cannot attack.


Updated commentary. It's getting there, but could still use a little work.

[ji6]

Say, half your level [for Stolen Form]. And Make 12th level magical natural attacks. That'd be a bit better.

That seems really punishing the whole exploration aspect of the Wild Shape, which feels like one of the coolest & thematic things for the rogue. It seems harsh to make them have to wait until level 8 to gain the ability to wild shape into aquatic creatures, and then 16th level for flying creatures. Would it be reasonable to keep the CR that they can wild shape low while giving them the versatility of aquatic/flying beasts as normal? So, at level 4 they can choose aquatic creatures and level 8 they can choose flying creatures, but they will be at lower CR than a normal druid?

As for the magical natural attacks, I mainly did that since necrotic sneak attack is already resisted, and it seems annoying as a player to have yet another thing at lowish levels to worry about. I am fine delaying that until 12th level if it is that strong.


Do you know what would make [Swarming Tactics] balanced? Either once per long rest OR you get stuck in CR 1/4 form and cannot attack.

Guess I will work on the wording more. I really had trouble figuring out a way to make the wording flow well with once per long rest, but I guess I will try again.

Edit: Take 3! I fixed up the Swarming Tactics to be once per long rest, and clarified some on being a CR 1/4 creature afterwords (mainly, making it as if you had a free wild shape so you at least know how long you could stay in that form). As for the wild shape stuff in general, sorry I am being somewhat stubborn, but without some extra benefit, I do not see why someone would not just take 2 levels of Moon Druid to instantly get some of the best forms (that you would not have until 16th level) as well as free spells. I did change it somewhat, and hopefully it seems better balanced now. I basically tried giving them the maximum benefit of the exploration utility of the wild shape, while limited their usage of the best beasts until later as you suggested.

[ji6]

Alright, I lightly playtested this against a couple of monsters around the correct CR rating (essentially, I used 4 of these rogues and compared them to 4 arcane tricksters and how they performed and 4 swashbucklers and how they preformed at level 9 in my most recent campaign battle around that level). I think you were right in that it should just be a straight 1/2 druid level conversion (I tried it with rogue level to druid level, and the current 1/2 rogue to druid level). I had not ever seen the Giant Octopus monster before, and that was quite powerful with this, and owl surprisingly enough was very powerful as well due to flyby and its innate high speed. I also rephrased wording more on Plague Bearer, and decided to just tie it directly with sneak attack, as previous wording made it seem like you could potentially get sneak attack twice in one turn by using multiattack. I also decided to just abandon the attempt at giving them the flying animals early, as it became somewhat annoying in wording and complicated things too much. It will likely hurt some of the awesome out of combat, but there are still beasts with climb speed so I imagine it will be fine.

[Sitri]

I am having a little bit of a hard time getting on board with the theme from the get go. If it is a druid outcast, shouldn't it be a druid first? I don't understand how the rogue starts doing dark druid type things and that makes them an outcast from a clan they were never part of.

Maybe something like Ur-Druid? The rogue is stealing the powers of the druids rather than being outcast by them. I think if this, or some other fluff that felt a little more cohesive to me were in place, I could more genuinely look at the mechanics.

[ji6]

I am having a little bit of a hard time getting on board with the theme from the get go. If it is a druid outcast, shouldn't it be a druid first? I don't understand how the rogue starts doing dark druid type things and that makes them an outcast from a clan they were never part of.

Maybe something like Ur-Druid? The rogue is stealing the powers of the druids rather than being outcast by them. I think if this, or some other fluff that felt a little more cohesive to me were in place, I could more genuinely look at the mechanics.

I honestly had difficulty thinking of the right name to represent what I was thinking. I think the original name I came up with was Druidic Outlaw, with the idea that they managed to steal the secret of wild shape (as I think that type of thing would be very useful as a rogue). Basically the inspiration for this idea was sort of based on the old Norse idea of an outlaw (where criminals hide in the wild and become animals) combined with a little bit of Japanese lore about criminals transforming into beasts and causing sickness (then generally upsetting nature as they fuse with it more). I attempted to then theme the abilities around rats somewhat, due to the general association of rats with criminals. I changed that name though as the idea of outlaw has changed enough that I doubt that concept would get across.

May I ask what Ur-Druid is? I am not familiar with that prefix, and google is not being my friend right now.

Honestly, this is my second real homebrew ever, and the first time I ever got any people to look at it.

[Sitri]

I honestly had difficulty thinking of the right name to represent what I was thinking. I think the original name I came up with was Druidic Outlaw, with the idea that they managed to steal the secret of wild shape (as I think that type of thing would be very useful as a rogue). Basically the inspiration for this idea was sort of based on the old Norse idea of an outlaw (where criminals hide in the wild and become animals) combined with a little bit of Japanese lore about criminals transforming into beasts and causing sickness (then generally upsetting nature as they fuse with it more). I attempted to then theme the abilities around rats somewhat, due to the general association of rats with criminals. I changed that name though as the idea of outlaw has changed enough that I doubt that concept would get across.

May I ask what Ur-Druid is? I am not familiar with that prefix, and google is not being my friend right now.

Honestly, this is my second real homebrew ever, and the first time I ever got any people to look at it.

Ur-priests are clerics who steal power from the gods rather than worshiping them. I kind of just made up Ur-druids.

[ji6]

Ur-priests are clerics who steal power from the gods rather than worshiping them. I kind of just made up Ur-druids.

Seems like a cool idea! I tried writing something like that below, what do you think? I really did not like the name Ur-Druid, and tried the name parasite (as siphoning natures power seems to fit in with that somewhat). I tried to have the abilities I previously made based around this idea, and got rid of druidic as I realized it made no sense to know it. It is flavor-wise a decent bit different than the Ur-Cleric flavor I read online, but hopefully it seems somewhat more consistent now.

Parasite___________________
You siphon the power of nature to use it for your own needs. Those who adhere to this archetype range from outlaws who have been outcast from society and absorb energy from the ecosystem as sustenance, to rogues who have developed a grudge against mother nature herself. Utilizing abilities druids have long called their own, you enhance your own skills by shape-shifting into the very things you steal energy from.

Parasitic Disguise
When you choose this archetype at 3rd level, you learn to disguise yourself in new ways in order to blend in with your prey. You gain Wild Shape as the druid feature if you do not have it already. Consider your druid level for all requirements to be half your rogue level (rounded up). At 12th level, your attacks in beast form count as magical for the purposes of overcoming resistance and immunity to nonmagical attacks and damage.

Feed
Starting at 3rd, you can directly obtaining sustenance from beasts and plants. While grappling (or being grappled by) a creature, you can use your reaction to surround a part of your body in magical energy and attempt to sap the target's strength from that spot. Make a Strength (Athletics) check contested by the target's Strength (Athletics) or Dexterity (Acrobatics) check (the target chooses the ability to use) to hold the target. If you succeed, the target takes necrotic damage equal to your Wisdom modifier (minimum of 1), and the energy provides nourishment for you as if it was a normal meal for a Medium creature. If you fail, the target manages to avoid or stop you from absorbing their energy, and can choose to break the grapple if they wish.

Vector
At 9th level, you gain immunity to disease and utilize diseased versions of beasts in your wild shape. Pouring these parasites into opponents, your attacks in beast form can now inflict sneak attack damage. Sneak attack damage dealt this way deals necrotic damage.

Self-preservation
At 13th level, your absorption of natural energy has strengthened your bond with nature to the extent that, while in beast form, you can speak with animals as the spell. Sensing this massive natural energy, other animals will do what they can to help you, within reason.

Reproduction
At 17th level, you can transform the dying pieces of your beast form into new animals when destroyed. Upon taking damage to revert your body to its normal form while in beast form, you can as a reaction collapse into a swarm of CR 1/4 small beasts or below of your choice. You take no damage past the initial damage which knocked you out of beast form, and the swarm scatters, leaving you in a square of your choice within the creature's movement as one of the CR 1/4 creatures you choose and considered hidden. Treat being this creature as if you used wild shape to turn into it, but do not expend a usage of wild shape. Once you use this feature, you must finish a long rest before you can use it again.

[Levism84]

Plague Bearer seems a little disjoined to me, even for an "avenging" eco-warrior. I would think a rogue with druidic tenancies would go the poison route instead of a disease/necrotic route. I would make the suggestion of giving the rogue immunity to poison (both damage and condition) and allowing them to lace appropriate natural attacks with poison that could add a nice kicker. The other advantage is you can wild shape into an already poisonous beast, kill a target with poison damage (DC ?? Medicine check to tell how the target died) and make it looks like a wild/trained animal did the killing instead of the rogue. While poison is one of the more common damage types and conditions with resistance/immunity, that helps to keep it a little more balanced than necrotic damage. At least, that is my suggestion.

Venomous
At 9th level, you gain immunity to poison damage and the poisoned condition. In addition, you learn to hide your deadliest attacks in the camouflage of nature. While you are in a beast form capable of making a bite, claw, or sting attack, you can cause your sneak attack to deal poison damage instead of normal weapon damage. A creature hit by such a sneak attack must also make a Constitution saving throw (DC 8 + your proficiency bonus + your Intelligence modifier) or gain the poisoned condition for 1 minute.

Alternatively, you could use the Constitution modifier for the save DC, but that fluctuates with beast form and Intelligence just feels more rogue-like.

[Sitri]

Seems like a cool idea! I tried writing something like that below, what do you think? I really did not like the name Ur-Druid, and tried the name parasite (as siphoning natures power seems to fit in with that somewhat). I tried to have the abilities I previously made based around this idea, and got rid of druidic as I realized it made no sense to know it. It is flavor-wise a decent bit different than the Ur-Cleric flavor I read online, but hopefully it seems somewhat more consistent now.

Parasite___________________
You siphon the power of nature to use it for your own needs. Those who adhere to this archetype range from outlaws who have been outcast from society and absorb energy from the ecosystem as sustenance, to rogues who have developed a grudge against mother nature herself. Utilizing abilities druids have long called their own, you enhance your own skills by shape-shifting into the very things you steal energy from.

Parasitic Disguise
When you choose this archetype at 3rd level, you learn to disguise yourself in new ways in order to blend in with your prey. You gain Wild Shape as the druid feature if you do not have it already. Consider your druid level for all requirements to be half your rogue level (rounded up). At 12th level, your attacks in beast form count as magical for the purposes of overcoming resistance and immunity to nonmagical attacks and damage.

Feed
Starting at 3rd, you can directly obtaining sustenance from beasts and plants. While grappling (or being grappled by) a creature, you can use your reaction to surround a part of your body in magical energy and attempt to sap the target's strength from that spot. Make a Strength (Athletics) check contested by the target's Strength (Athletics) or Dexterity (Acrobatics) check (the target chooses the ability to use) to hold the target. If you succeed, the target takes necrotic damage equal to your Wisdom modifier (minimum of 1), and the energy provides nourishment for you as if it was a normal meal for a Medium creature. If you fail, the target manages to avoid or stop you from absorbing their energy, and can choose to break the grapple if they wish.

Vector
At 9th level, you gain immunity to disease and utilize diseased versions of beasts in your wild shape. Pouring these parasites into opponents, your attacks in beast form can now inflict sneak attack damage. Sneak attack damage dealt this way deals necrotic damage.

Self-preservation
At 13th level, your absorption of natural energy has strengthened your bond with nature to the extent that, while in beast form, you can speak with animals as the spell. Sensing this massive natural energy, other animals will do what they can to help you, within reason.

Reproduction
At 17th level, you can transform the dying pieces of your beast form into new animals when destroyed. Upon taking damage to revert your body to its normal form while in beast form, you can as a reaction collapse into a swarm of CR 1/4 small beasts or below of your choice. You take no damage past the initial damage which knocked you out of beast form, and the swarm scatters, leaving you in a square of your choice within the creature's movement as one of the CR 1/4 creatures you choose and considered hidden. Treat being this creature as if you used wild shape to turn into it, but do not expend a usage of wild shape. Once you use this feature, you must finish a long rest before you can use it again.


I am definitely loving this subclass a lot more now. It feels a lot more like a cohesive theme to me.

[ji6]

Plague Bearer seems a little disjoined to me, even for an "avenging" eco-warrior. I would think a rogue with druidic tenancies would go the poison route instead of a disease/necrotic route. I would make the suggestion of giving the rogue immunity to poison (both damage and condition) and allowing them to lace appropriate natural attacks with poison that could add a nice kicker. The other advantage is you can wild shape into an already poisonous beast, kill a target with poison damage (DC ?? Medicine check to tell how the target died) and make it looks like a wild/trained animal did the killing instead of the rogue. While poison is one of the more common damage types and conditions with resistance/immunity, that helps to keep it a little more balanced than necrotic damage. At least, that is my suggestion.

Venomous
At 9th level, you gain immunity to poison damage and the poisoned condition. In addition, you learn to hide your deadliest attacks in the camouflage of nature. While you are in a beast form capable of making a bite, claw, or sting attack, you can cause your sneak attack to deal poison damage instead of normal weapon damage. A creature hit by such a sneak attack must also make a Constitution saving throw (DC 8 + your proficiency bonus + your Intelligence modifier) or gain the poisoned condition for 1 minute.

Alternatively, you could use the Constitution modifier for the save DC, but that fluctuates with beast form and Intelligence just feels more rogue-like.

Yeah, I have been struggling a lot on getting the flavor right and still having what I initially intended. I really like this honestly, especially with the intelligence DC (since I love intelligence on characters), but my main problem is then I feel like the Swarming Tactics (or Reproduction in the parasite flavor) seems out of place, and that is also a super cool ability that I love a lot. Also, I actually just reflavored the class while you were likely typing, and necrotic damage seems to be the best way to go with the new flavor. Thanks for the idea though! I kinda want to find a way to incorporate this type of thing in a character now!


I am definitely loving this subclass a lot more now. It feels a lot more like a cohesive theme to me.

Sweet! I was a bit worried as I kinda threw feed together rather quickly, and I was unsure how balanced that would be (being reaction based damage). I also was unsure if the word vector would be confusing or not, as I do a lot of math so I think of different vectors every time I read it :P.

[Sitri]

Yeah, I have been struggling a lot on getting the flavor right and still having what I initially intended. I really like this honestly, especially with the intelligence DC (since I love intelligence on characters), but my main problem is then I feel like the Swarming Tactics (or Reproduction in the parasite flavor) seems out of place, and that is also a super cool ability that I love a lot. Also, I actually just reflavored the class while you were likely typing, and necrotic damage seems to be the best way to go with the new flavor. Thanks for the idea though! I kinda want to find a way to incorporate this type of thing in a character now!



Sweet! I was a bit worried as I kinda threw feed together rather quickly, and I was unsure how balanced that would be (being reaction based damage). I also was unsure if the word vector would be confusing or not, as I do a lot of math so I think of different vectors every time I read it :P.

I did a pause on Vector too. But it didn't bother me enough to mention it.

I see so little grappling I didn't think of Feed being overpowered. Perhaps make some simulation fights and see how it pans out. I know there is an interesting guide to making a grapple focused character, but even in the guide they say this is a low damage fighting style. Honestly I don't think it will be a problem.

[ji6]

I did a pause on Vector too. But it didn't bother me enough to mention it.

I see so little grappling I didn't think of Feed being overpowered. Perhaps make some simulation fights and see how it pans out. I know there is an interesting guide to making a grapple focused character, but even in the guide they say this is a low damage fighting style. Honestly I don't think it will be a problem.

Ha! I hate that Vector happens to be the exact word for what I want ;-;

Actually, I have read that guide and played a grappling rogue character. It was fun, but I felt more 5th wheely than a second bard. Especially as one of the PCs made sure to keep track of how many kills each person had and announced it after every kill ;-;. I will try to test it sometime. It actually feels interesting because I think a rogue of this class might want to take both Athletics and Acrobatics in my mind. Also, sub-optimal choices seem awesome with this archetype, like many gnome rogues would love this subclass. Especially forest gnomes blackmailing the forest, or spurned by one of the small animals they can talk to.

[rlc]

I like the name "Swarming Tactics" more than "Reproduction." Also, fix grammatical errors.

[ji6]

I like the name "Swarming Tactics" more than "Reproduction." Also, fix grammatical errors.

I did as well, but was unsure if the name "Swarming Tactics" still went with the new flavor :S. I might change it back if it sounds that weird. And grammar mistakes!?! Darn! I thought I got rid of those! Piece of junk! I was so focused on trying to write somewhat similar to the PHB that I must have made some stupid errors >.<.

[Sitri]

Ha! I hate that Vector happens to be the exact word for what I want ;-;

Actually, I have read that guide and played a grappling rogue character. It was fun, but I felt more 5th wheely than a second bard. Especially as one of the PCs made sure to keep track of how many kills each person had and announced it after every kill ;-;. I will try to test it sometime. It actually feels interesting because I think a rogue of this class might want to take both Athletics and Acrobatics in my mind. Also, sub-optimal choices seem awesome with this archetype, like many gnome rogues would love this subclass. Especially forest gnomes blackmailing the forest, or spurned by one of the small animals they can talk to.

I have played controllers as my primary style character for years. While I have had several characters go their entire careers without killing anything, I still had organized play DMs complain my characters were overpowered.

It sounds to me like your party member may have been a little short sighted.

[Levism84]

Looking over the archetype, I am beginning to really like it. Some of the mechanics are a little "wonky" still, but they aren't anything that cannot be play-tested and fixed. Here are some suggestions I would make towards streamlining some of the mechanics and balancing the power of this build.

Parasitic Disguise: I believe this can be a balanced feature, as half druid wild shape makes for more of an exploration or ambush character than a front-line tank like Moon Druids. Also, since sneak attack requires a finesse or ranged weapon (which natural attacks aren't specifically stated as being or not being), I would put something in along the lines of being able to use sneak attack with natural weapons while in wild shape (subject to the normal limitations for sneak attack). This will add to the ambush quality of the build.

Parasitic Disguise
When you choose this archetype at 3rd level, you learn to disguise yourself in new ways to blend in with your prey. You gain Wild Shape as the druid feature if you do not have it already. Treat your effective druid level as half your rogue level (rounded up) for the purpose of determining your wild shape feature. In addition, you treat your beast form's natural weapons as finesse weapons for the purpose of using sneak attack. At 12th level, your attacks in beast form count as magical for the purposes of overcoming resistance and immunity to nonmagical attacks and damage.

Feed: I get you are trying to do something with grapples, but you are shooting yourself in the foot, mechanically speaking. Most rogues (and most beast forms you have access to at 1/2 druid progression) aren't going to have exceptional Strength scores. While you are adding proficiency if trained in Athletics, it is opposed by either the Athletics OR Acrobatics of the target. I have yet to see an attack mechanic that uses opposed ability checks in this system. I would make it a melee attack using either Strength or Dexterity against the targets AC. You can have the magical energy sheath the rogues weapon (or natural attack) and deal the extra bit of damage with the feeding kicker.

Alternatively, if you wanted it to have a more supernatural (non-combative) feel, you could make it a melee spell attack (using either Intelligence as the rogue's analytical approach towards manipulating nature or Wisdom as the more traditional druidic approach to nature) against the target's AC and a hit deals the minor amount of necrotic damage (either Int or Wis modifier, respectively). The nourishment mechanic is nice, but make sure to clarify if there is any downside to "feeding" too much using this ability. Since the rogue already gets a fairly big ability in wild shaping, this ability is more flavorful and shouldn't be as mechanically powerful. Also, for being a nature oriented character, I am seeing a surprising lack of proficiency in Nature. I would suggest adding proficiency in Nature if the character did not already possess it, as this single proficiency grants flavor, expanded utility, and is a skill not normally on the rogue's skill list.

Feed
Starting at 3rd level, you uncover many dark secrets hidden within nature and can directly obtain sustenance from living creatures. You gain proficiency with the Nature skill. In addition, you can use the Attack action to make a melee spell attack (using your Intelligence modifier) against a living creature. On a successful hit, you deal your Intelligence modifier in necrotic damage to the target (minimum of 1 necrotic damage), and the energy provides nourishment for you as if it was a normal meal for your size. You may feed as many times as you like without penalty, and some parasites enjoy doing so, even when the excess nourishment is wasted.

Vector: This ability is a cross between functional mechanics and a ribbon (flavor). The immunity to disease is nice, although not as common an attack as poison (depending upon GM playing styles). Being able to wild shape into diseased versions of creatures, mechanically, only applies to the diseased giant rat (CR 1/8). I am going to assume you meant diseased versions of creatures as in flavor-wise? Because you require a finesse or ranged weapon for sneak attack (and I couldn't find any information about whether a natural attack for a creature using Dexterity would be considered finesse), the line about using your sneak attack in beast form seems reasonable. However, this seems like something that could be addressed in Parasitic Disguise, giving you access to your sneak attack damage earlier than 9th.

I would make the suggestion of having the ability to choose a diseased version of any creature you can normally take the form of, which changes your sneak attack in that form into necrotic damage and has a diseased kicker like that of the diseased giant rat. Or, you could just ignore the necrotic sneak attack change, and focus on the disease kicker for your beast form attacks.

Vector
At 9th level, you gain immunity to disease and can choose to wild shape into a diseased version of a beast you could normally take the form of. In this diseased form, a creature hit by your natural bite or claw attack must make a Constitution saving throw (DC 8 + your proficiency bonus + your Int modifier) or contract a disease. Until the disease is cured, the target can't regain hit points except by magical means, and the target's hit point maximum decreases by your Intelligence modifier (minimum of 1) every 24 hours. If the target's hit point maximum drops to 0 as a result of this disease, the target dies.

Self-Preservation: The being able to speak with animals while in beast form isn't a bad ability, but the second part of it is a little to open for abuse. I would change it to granting you advantage on Charisma (Intimidation) checks and Charisma (Persuasion) checks made to get beasts you can communicate with to help you.

Self-Preservation
At 13th level, your absorption of natural energy has strengthened your domineering bond with nature to the extent that, while in beast form, you can use speak with animals at will, as the spell. Because animals can sense this massive natural energy you wield, you have advantage on Charisma (Intimidation) checks and Charisma (Persuasion) checks made to influence animals you can communicate with using speak with animals.

Swarming Tactics: This ability is a little more complicated than the others. At its core, it is a "when reduced to 0 hit points" you can "use a reaction to wild shape (for free) into a swarm". In essence, instead of being forced out of wild shape, you quickly reconstitute yourself as a decaying swarm of lesser creatures. I would normally limit this specifically to a swarm of bats, rats, or ravens. All three have sinister connotations when it comes to nature, all three are CR 1/4 swarms, and all three are presented fully in the Monster Manual. However, no spell currently allows for the summoning and control of a swarm of such creatures. The closest is insect swarm or a swarm of insects which, at CR 1/2, is a little tougher. However, the list of swarms available gives the character even more versatility and mechanical resources to lean upon.

Being able to use this feature without expending a use of wild shape is somewhat beefy (since druids can't normally choose to react to being knocked out of wild shape by wild shaping again), but it is thematically appropriate and somewhat constrained by requiring a long rest to recharge. I would make the following changes to this feature:

Swarming Tactics
At 17th level, you can transform the dying pieces of your beast form into a swarm of insects when destroyed. Upon taking damage to revert your body to its normal form while in beast form, you can use your reaction to collapse into a swarm of insects of your choice (centipedes, spiders, or wasps). You take no damage past the initial damage which knocked you out of beast form. You have no ability to influence or control the swarm of insects, although it will not attack you. The majority of the swarm remains in the square in which you collapsed for 1 minute before dissipating. During this time you and other individual members of the swarm scatter. On your turn, you can move using the swarm's movement speed and you are considered hidden, as the chaos of the swarm and your Tiny size prevents you from being targeted individually. Once the swarm dissipates, you must either take on your normal form or adopt the giant version of your beast form (giant centipede, giant spider, or giant wasp). Treat being this creature as if you used wild shape to turn into it, but you do not expend a use of wild shape. Once you use this feature, you must finish a long rest before you can use it again.

Anyway, those are my suggestions for this archetype. Hopefully, they can be of some help. Have fun and keep being creative.

[ji6]

I have played controllers as my primary style character for years. While I have had several characters go their entire careers without killing anything, I still had organized play DMs complain my characters were overpowered.

It sounds to me like your party member may have been a little short sighted.

Yeah, controllers seem to be the strongest in D&D mainly because they mess up DMs plans :P.

As for my party members, isn't everyone short sighted? I feel like most D&D characters are ^+^


Parasitic Disguise: I believe this can be a balanced feature, as half druid wild shape makes for more of an exploration or ambush character than a front-line tank like Moon Druids. Also, since sneak attack requires a finesse or ranged weapon (which natural attacks aren't specifically stated as being or not being), I would put something in along the lines of being able to use sneak attack with natural weapons while in wild shape (subject to the normal limitations for sneak attack). This will add to the ambush quality of the build.

Parasitic Disguise
When you choose this archetype at 3rd level, you learn to disguise yourself in new ways to blend in with your prey. You gain Wild Shape as the druid feature if you do not have it already. Treat your effective druid level as half your rogue level (rounded up) for the purpose of determining your wild shape feature. In addition, you treat your beast form's natural weapons as finesse weapons for the purpose of using sneak attack. At 12th level, your attacks in beast form count as magical for the purposes of overcoming resistance and immunity to nonmagical attacks and damage.

I did not know if this would be too strong, which was one of the main reasons I gave them the capability to sneak attack at 9th instead. I honestly think this sounds pretty reasonable, since rogues are balanced around sneak attack and also they do not get owls (badass) until 16th level now.


Feed: I get you are trying to do something with grapples, but you are shooting yourself in the foot, mechanically speaking. Most rogues (and most beast forms you have access to at 1/2 druid progression) aren't going to have exceptional Strength scores. While you are adding proficiency if trained in Athletics, it is opposed by either the Athletics OR Acrobatics of the target. I have yet to see an attack mechanic that uses opposed ability checks in this system. I would make it a melee attack using either Strength or Dexterity against the targets AC. You can have the magical energy sheath the rogues weapon (or natural attack) and deal the extra bit of damage with the feeding kicker.

Alternatively, if you wanted it to have a more supernatural (non-combative) feel, you could make it a melee spell attack (using either Intelligence as the rogue's analytical approach towards manipulating nature or Wisdom as the more traditional druidic approach to nature) against the target's AC and a hit deals the minor amount of necrotic damage (either Int or Wis modifier, respectively). The nourishment mechanic is nice, but make sure to clarify if there is any downside to "feeding" too much using this ability. Since the rogue already gets a fairly big ability in wild shaping, this ability is more flavorful and shouldn't be as mechanically powerful. Also, for being a nature oriented character, I am seeing a surprising lack of proficiency in Nature. I would suggest adding proficiency in Nature if the character did not already possess it, as this single proficiency grants flavor, expanded utility, and is a skill not normally on the rogue's skill list.

Feed
Starting at 3rd level, you uncover many dark secrets hidden within nature and can directly obtain sustenance from living creatures. You gain proficiency with the Nature skill. In addition, you can use the Attack action to make a melee spell attack (using your Intelligence modifier) against a living creature. On a successful hit, you deal your Intelligence modifier in necrotic damage to the target (minimum of 1 necrotic damage), and the energy provides nourishment for you as if it was a normal meal for your size. You may feed as many times as you like without penalty, and some parasites enjoy doing so, even when the excess nourishment is wasted.

Hmmm, I like this a lot better than my ability. *Swipes* The initially point was mainly a non-combat usage since wild shape is awesome already. I like getting proficiency with the nature skill. I probably will use wisdom simply because there is already an int based archetype for rogues, and wisdom feels more like what most people would go, but darnit I love intelligence abilities. The main problem is intelligence usually implies studying, and I feel like they get these abilities more so from absorbing energy from nature as clerics absorb energy from gods. As for the extra nourishment bit, I was actually just leaving that out so a DM could decide whether you get sick or not, but I like the way you did it better.


Vector: This ability is a cross between functional mechanics and a ribbon (flavor). The immunity to disease is nice, although not as common an attack as poison (depending upon GM playing styles). Being able to wild shape into diseased versions of creatures, mechanically, only applies to the diseased giant rat (CR 1/8). I am going to assume you meant diseased versions of creatures as in flavor-wise? Because you require a finesse or ranged weapon for sneak attack (and I couldn't find any information about whether a natural attack for a creature using Dexterity would be considered finesse), the line about using your sneak attack in beast form seems reasonable. However, this seems like something that could be addressed in Parasitic Disguise, giving you access to your sneak attack damage earlier than 9th.

I would make the suggestion of having the ability to choose a diseased version of any creature you can normally take the form of, which changes your sneak attack in that form into necrotic damage and has a diseased kicker like that of the diseased giant rat. Or, you could just ignore the necrotic sneak attack change, and focus on the disease kicker for your beast form attacks.

Vector
At 9th level, you gain immunity to disease and can choose to wild shape into a diseased version of a beast you could normally take the form of. In this diseased form, a creature hit by your natural bite or claw attack must make a Constitution saving throw (DC 8 + your proficiency bonus + your Int modifier) or contract a disease. Until the disease is cured, the target can't regain hit points except by magical means, and the target's hit point maximum decreases by your Intelligence modifier (minimum of 1) every 24 hours. If the target's hit point maximum drops to 0 as a result of this disease, the target dies.

Is it bad for an ability to be both a ribbon and functional? Yeah, the immunity to disease was mainly for flavor, and I intended them to be able to "shape into a diseased version of a beast [they] could normally take the form of." As for the change with the disease idea being more prominent, I like it and will swipe another one from you ^+^. I think I might change the restriction to be piercing or slashing instead of just bite/claw though, as a diseased boar sounds like what killed every king in books I have read.


Self-Preservation: The being able to speak with animals while in beast form isn't a bad ability, but the second part of it is a little to open for abuse. I would change it to granting you advantage on Charisma (Intimidation) checks and Charisma (Persuasion) checks made to get beasts you can communicate with to help you.

Self-Preservation
At 13th level, your absorption of natural energy has strengthened your domineering bond with nature to the extent that, while in beast form, you can use speak with animals at will, as the spell. Because animals can sense this massive natural energy you wield, you have advantage on Charisma (Intimidation) checks and Charisma (Persuasion) checks made to influence animals you can communicate with using speak with animals.

Hmm, my main problem is that I want them to be able to essentially talk to rats and whatnot and get those animals to do their bidding (i.e. likely collect intel or be a distraction). The reason I liked the last wording was it left a creative player with lots of things to do with the ability, and still regulated by the DM. If it is just advantage on the checks, I have this gut feeling that it would never be used as broadly as I intended.

Alright, after thinking about it for a while, I changed my mind. It is not my job to make a player use their features to the best of their ability, and rogues get such a nice bonus to checks that they probably could still do a lot of the things I intended with the advantage on checks.


Swarming Tactics: This ability is a little more complicated than the others. At its core, it is a "when reduced to 0 hit points" you can "use a reaction to wild shape (for free) into a swarm". In essence, instead of being forced out of wild shape, you quickly reconstitute yourself as a decaying swarm of lesser creatures. I would normally limit this specifically to a swarm of bats, rats, or ravens. All three have sinister connotations when it comes to nature, all three are CR 1/4 swarms, and all three are presented fully in the Monster Manual. However, no spell currently allows for the summoning and control of a swarm of such creatures. The closest is insect swarm or a swarm of insects which, at CR 1/2, is a little tougher. However, the list of swarms available gives the character even more versatility and mechanical resources to lean upon.

Being able to use this feature without expending a use of wild shape is somewhat beefy (since druids can't normally choose to react to being knocked out of wild shape by wild shaping again), but it is thematically appropriate and somewhat constrained by requiring a long rest to recharge. I would make the following changes to this feature:

Swarming Tactics
At 17th level, you can transform the dying pieces of your beast form into a swarm of insects when destroyed. Upon taking damage to revert your body to its normal form while in beast form, you can use your reaction to collapse into a swarm of insects of your choice (centipedes, spiders, or wasps). You take no damage past the initial damage which knocked you out of beast form. You have no ability to influence or control the swarm of insects, although it will not attack you. The majority of the swarm remains in the square in which you collapsed for 1 minute before dissipating. During this time you and other individual members of the swarm scatter. On your turn, you can move using the swarm's movement speed and you are considered hidden, as the chaos of the swarm and your Tiny size prevents you from being targeted individually. Once the swarm dissipates, you must either take on your normal form or adopt the giant version of your beast form (giant centipede, giant spider, or giant wasp). Treat being this creature as if you used wild shape to turn into it, but you do not expend a use of wild shape. Once you use this feature, you must finish a long rest before you can use it again.

Yeah, I like the clarification that you cannot control the swarm and that it will not attack you. As for the restriction on insects, I think that sounds reasonable and makes a lot of thematic sense, especially as the idea was you transformed the dying pieces of the beast form into these creatures. I was going to change it to be based anytime before the swarm dissipates, but it proved more annoying to word, and seemed weird as you could always take a bonus action to return to your normal form. Instead, I slightly changed some of the wording dealing with the minute mark when the swarm dissipates.


Anyway, those are my suggestions for this archetype. Hopefully, they can be of some help. Have fun and keep being creative.

They were a huge help! Thank you so much! Hopefully my idea for my next homebrew will be considered creative as well ^+^

[Levism84]

Glad to be of some help. I think going the Wisdom route was the right choice to keep with the nature theme. I also didn't consider the piercing/slashing for spreading disease. I like that a lot better because, as you said, boars and kings. I am sure you, your DM, and other players can help cleanup some of the language if it is still confusing. I look forward to hearing how it playtests.

[Rusvul]

Interesting. Sort of akin to the 3.5 Blighter, but bearing similarities to the Ur-Priest as well. All build on a Rogue chassis. Quite unique, and very flavorful. I'm not really qualified to speak to balance of anything, but assuming feedback is still desired, I can offer a few tips on wording.

Self-Preservation could be worded better. It says 'while in beast form, you may use Speak with Animals at will, as the spell.' The issue here is that the spell requires a Verbal component, which you are unable to provide while in beast form. While I doubt any DM would really care, it may be worth either specifying that a component is not required or that you are able to provide one for this specific ability.

It also says that "you have advantage on Charisma (Intimidation) checks and Charisma (Persuasion) checks made to influence animals you can communicate with using speak with animals." Again, not likely to be a problem in practice, but to make sure it is interpreted correctly it could be a good idea to specify Beasts (with a capital B) instead of animals, since Animal is no longer a creature type.

Beasts, as well, don't have a maximum intelligence score like they did in 3.5- I'm not actually sure if there are any beasts with an INT score of 3 or higher, but it's not directly prohibited by the creature type. Given that, you might consider specifying that you only have advantage on Charisma checks against Beasts with an INT of 2 or lower- If you want the ability to function only against animals that are not self-aware, at least, otherwise it doesn't really matter.

Minor things, really, in general this is a well thought out archetype.

[ji6]

Interesting. Sort of akin to the 3.5 Blighter, but bearing similarities to the Ur-Priest as well. All build on a Rogue chassis. Quite unique, and very flavorful. I'm not really qualified to speak to balance of anything, but assuming feedback is still desired, I can offer a few tips on wording.

Oh! I had never seen Blighter before! Thanks, and I always love more feedback!


Self-Preservation could be worded better. It says 'while in beast form, you may use Speak with Animals at will, as the spell.' The issue here is that the spell requires a Verbal component, which you are unable to provide while in beast form. While I doubt any DM would really care, it may be worth either specifying that a component is not required or that you are able to provide one for this specific ability.

Hmmm, I can understand that confusion. I am thinking of wording it instead "while in beast form, you gain the ability to comprehend and verbally communicate with other beasts." This text is essentially that of the Speak with Animals spell, and avoids some problems of being able to cast a 1st level spell at will as well as making the whole verbal/somatic component mess gone. This does make it unable to be dispelled and gets rid of some of the action cost, but really I doubt that matters too much in context.



It also says that "you have advantage on Charisma (Intimidation) checks and Charisma (Persuasion) checks made to influence animals you can communicate with using speak with animals." Again, not likely to be a problem in practice, but to make sure it is interpreted correctly it could be a good idea to specify Beasts (with a capital B) instead of animals, since Animal is no longer a creature type.

That sounds reasonable. I get kinda confused by the PHB as it seems to swap between the two occasionally. It also likes using lower-case beast as well instead of upper-case Beast.

EDIT: Case/Point, I just was looking into the Speak with Animals spell, and it uses lowercase terminology, so I think I will change it to beast but use the lowercase form to be consistent.


Beasts, as well, don't have a maximum intelligence score like they did in 3.5- I'm not actually sure if there are any beasts with an INT score of 3 or higher, but it's not directly prohibited by the creature type. Given that, you might consider specifying that you only have advantage on Charisma checks against Beasts with an INT of 2 or lower- If you want the ability to function only against animals that are not self-aware, at least, otherwise it doesn't really matter.

I think I might just let it function on beasts of any intelligence, simply because the ones that are more intelligent should be even more afraid of you :P. In reality, I just think it seems annoying for a player/DM to have to remember it only works on certain lower-intelligence beasts.


Minor things, really, in general this is a well thought out archetype.

Thanks! I really have started to like it more and more as I play with it!

[PoeticDwarf]

Too strong I'd say. Wild shape is pretty huge. If you remove the finesse part (good damage with extra attack with extra d6es is too much) most is OK

[ji6]

Too strong I'd say. Wild shape is pretty huge. If you remove the finesse part (good damage with extra attack with extra d6es is too much) most is OK

I might have once been more agreeing to this point as I have heard a bunch of people say that before I brought it in game, but everyone then realizes Wild Shape is not a super awesome feature when you do not have the moon druid "Combat Wild Shape." Especially with the delayed progression, over the course of 15 levels, you essentially get what Moon Druids gets in two levels (or what a standard land druid gets in 8 levels). [Note: Essentially due to the fact that moon druids do not get flying forms until level 8, but at that point they are wild shaping into far stronger creatures]

To illustrate this point, at level 3-6, the strongest beast form that is CR 1/4 (the maximum they can shape shift) is arguably wolf. This has 11 hitpoints, 40 feet movement speed, pack tactics, and a low dc prone ability. Its to-hit is not too high, as it only has a dex of 15, although its others abilities make it pretty nice. At levels 3-6, almost everything one shots a 11 hitpoint creature. A wolf's average damage alone deals 7 points (and it is a CR 1/4 beast), so if you get hit by nearly anything you are likely going to be returned to your human form. If you want to pick the maximum hitpoint creature, it is a draft horse (technically, a few others have 19 hitpoints), with 18 strength, and a movement speed of 40. A much more stable form, but still riding the edge of one shot material, and certainly falling to extra attack or multiattack creatures and many spells.

At levels 7-14, you get aquatic beasts and CR 1/2 creatures. With a ranged attack, Ape is immediately one of the stronger creatures at this level, although it has only a strength of 16 and the famous 19 hitpoints. Black Bear is also noticeable due to having 19 hitpoints with multiattack. Other than the Reef Shark (with 22 hitpoints) though, nothing has higher than 19 hitpoints.

At levels 15 onward, you get flying beasts and CR 1 creatures! Yay! You get what moon druids got at level 2 plus flying forms finally. So, Brown Bear with 34 hitpoints / multiattack. Eagle with fly and 26 hitpoints. The famous Giant Octopus with 52 hitpoints and cool abilities. Owl is actually also noteworthy as flyby improves the action economy somewhat. But, at level 15, you are almost still always getting one shot because it IS level 15 after all and things are tougher than CR 1 creatures.

The main reason all of the above does not suck is because you have the rogue abilities backing it up, like evasion, uncanny dodge, and rogue's cunning. Essentially, you are only in your beast form as long as the enemy does not hit you. Oh, and you have low AC in most forms as a beast. So really, you are a beast as long as the enemy does not aim an attack in your direction.

So, to summarize the above, the combat capability of this feature is actually sacrificing what would normally be a 20 dex for a number less than 19 in the primary score. You are still likely to be one shot, meaning you can not just dumb dex as you will be out of the form a lot. Your damage? On a lot of accounts less than a rogue deals when using a longbow, as few beasts at this level have high damage dice and most have lower modifiers. So essentially, less accurate and weaker in beast form. Even grappling wise, the easily to one-shot factor means they will just headbutt you then deal a lot of damage. So, out of combat overpowered then? In terms of maneuverability, you get a climb speed creature at level 3 with baboon, aquatic creatures at level 7, and flying creatures at level 15 (technically you also get a burrowing creature at level 3, but its burrow speed is only 10 feet which is rather slow). Those are pretty cool things to get as small boons at times, but overpowered? Not really as water breathing is a low level ritual, and at level 15 you probably have someone in your party that does not care about using fly on you when needed. Really, the climb speed creature is probably the one strongest when you get it at level 3, but climbing is never a major obstacle in any campaign, and if it was the rogue would already have expertise in it.

Because you said the rest is "OK," I would like to point out the other features the archetype grants are one additional skill proficiency (IN NATURE, a notoriously (https://1d4chan.org/wiki/Bear_Lore) weak skill check), a weak non-sneak attack damage dealing ability based on wisdom (it deals less a single peasant's punch on many occasions), a potential out-of-combat disease, some situational bonuses on talking to beasts, and its capstone which is essentially a once per long rest hide + avoid damage skill (pretty strong, but very far down the line). Comparing to Assassin, which many see as a weak archetype, I would say the level 3 feature is on par (but you have to stay a rogue to get the benefit of wildshape improving), the level 9th and 13th level features are on par as out-of-combat cool things, and the level 17th level is probably on par as well (with it being defensive compared to the assassin's offensive feature). You get no where near the damage that any of the other archetypes offer, but get some versatility (although, the arcane wizard may get more versatility than this archetype in some opinions).

tldnr; it has lower damage than a typical 20 dex rogue of any archetype with a longbow (and certainly less than one that uses a crossbow or duel wields) at most levels and the feature mainly grants some extra maneuverability + small extra amount of health per day + interesting options at times. As the primary feature of the class is wildshape, it is in no ways overpowered as the other features (except the 17th level) are pretty weak and may not be relevant in many campaigns. Since it is also easy to one-shot the wildshape creature at pretty much all levels the rogue has it, it also means dumping dex is difficult as then out of beast form you will be weak. The beasts almost all have very low AC as well, making it easy for most to ensure hitting you. If you want to say it is overpowered, I really need an example that shows how to believe you, because all the testing I have done makes it seem otherwise.

[PoeticDwarf]

I might have once been more agreeing to this point as I have heard a bunch of people say that before I brought it in game, but everyone then realizes Wild Shape is not a super awesome feature when you do not have the moon druid "Combat Wild Shape." Especially with the delayed progression, over the course of 15 levels, you essentially get what Moon Druids gets in two levels (or what a standard land druid gets in 8 levels). [Note: Essentially due to the fact that moon druids do not get flying forms until level 8, but at that point they are wild shaping into far stronger creatures]

To illustrate this point, at level 3-6, the strongest beast form that is CR 1/4 (the maximum they can shape shift) is arguably wolf. This has 11 hitpoints, 40 feet movement speed, pack tactics, and a low dc prone ability. Its to-hit is not too high, as it only has a dex of 15, although its others abilities make it pretty nice. At levels 3-6, almost everything one shots a 11 hitpoint creature. A wolf's average damage alone deals 7 points (and it is a CR 1/4 beast), so if you get hit by nearly anything you are likely going to be returned to your human form. If you want to pick the maximum hitpoint creature, it is a draft horse (technically, a few others have 19 hitpoints), with 18 strength, and a movement speed of 40. A much more stable form, but still riding the edge of one shot material, and certainly falling to extra attack or multiattack creatures and many spells.

At levels 7-14, you get aquatic beasts and CR 1/2 creatures. With a ranged attack, Ape is immediately one of the stronger creatures at this level, although it has only a strength of 16 and the famous 19 hitpoints. Black Bear is also noticeable due to having 19 hitpoints with multiattack. Other than the Reef Shark (with 22 hitpoints) though, nothing has higher than 19 hitpoints.

At levels 15 onward, you get flying beasts and CR 1 creatures! Yay! You get what moon druids got at level 2 plus flying forms finally. So, Brown Bear with 34 hitpoints / multiattack. Eagle with fly and 26 hitpoints. The famous Giant Octopus with 52 hitpoints and cool abilities. Owl is actually also noteworthy as flyby improves the action economy somewhat. But, at level 15, you are almost still always getting one shot because it IS level 15 after all and things are tougher than CR 1 creatures.

The main reason all of the above does not suck is because you have the rogue abilities backing it up, like evasion, uncanny dodge, and rogue's cunning. Essentially, you are only in your beast form as long as the enemy does not hit you. Oh, and you have low AC in most forms as a beast. So really, you are a beast as long as the enemy does not aim an attack in your direction.

So, to summarize the above, the combat capability of this feature is actually sacrificing what would normally be a 20 dex for a number less than 19 in the primary score. You are still likely to be one shot, meaning you can not just dumb dex as you will be out of the form a lot. Your damage? On a lot of accounts less than a rogue deals when using a longbow, as few beasts at this level have high damage dice and most have lower modifiers. So essentially, less accurate and weaker in beast form. Even grappling wise, the easily to one-shot factor means they will just headbutt you then deal a lot of damage. So, out of combat overpowered then? In terms of maneuverability, you get a climb speed creature at level 3 with baboon, aquatic creatures at level 7, and flying creatures at level 15 (technically you also get a burrowing creature at level 3, but its burrow speed is only 10 feet which is rather slow). Those are pretty cool things to get as small boons at times, but overpowered? Not really as water breathing is a low level ritual, and at level 15 you probably have someone in your party that does not care about using fly on you when needed. Really, the climb speed creature is probably the one strongest when you get it at level 3, but climbing is never a major obstacle in any campaign, and if it was the rogue would already have expertise in it.

Because you said the rest is "OK," I would like to point out the other features the archetype grants are one additional skill proficiency (IN NATURE, a notoriously (https://1d4chan.org/wiki/Bear_Lore) weak skill check), a weak non-sneak attack damage dealing ability based on wisdom (it deals less a single peasant's punch on many occasions), a potential out-of-combat disease, some situational bonuses on talking to beasts, and its capstone which is essentially a once per long rest hide + avoid damage skill (pretty strong, but very far down the line). Comparing to Assassin, which many see as a weak archetype, I would say the level 3 feature is on par (but you have to stay a rogue to get the benefit of wildshape improving), the level 9th and 13th level features are on par as out-of-combat cool things, and the level 17th level is probably on par as well (with it being defensive compared to the assassin's offensive feature). You get no where near the damage that any of the other archetypes offer, but get some versatility (although, the arcane wizard may get more versatility than this archetype in some opinions).

tldnr; it has lower damage than a typical 20 dex rogue of any archetype with a longbow (and certainly less than one that uses a crossbow or duel wields) at most levels and the feature mainly grants some extra maneuverability + small extra amount of health per day + interesting options at times. As the primary feature of the class is wildshape, it is in no ways overpowered as the other features (except the 17th level) are pretty weak and may not be relevant in many campaigns. Since it is also easy to one-shot the wildshape creature at pretty much all levels the rogue has it, it also means dumping dex is difficult as then out of beast form you will be weak. The beasts almost all have very low AC as well, making it easy for most to ensure hitting you. If you want to say it is overpowered, I really need an example that shows how to believe you, because all the testing I have done makes it seem otherwise.

You're right, I was not sure if you meant like half moon druid or half druid, but this way it sounds pretty balanced.

Good work

[ji6]

You're right, I was not sure if you meant like half moon druid or half druid, but this way it sounds pretty balanced.

Good work

Hmmmm, if it is that unclear, I might add an edited Beast Shape chart to the PDF next time I edit it.

[SpawnOfMorbo]

I definitely think that you should allow the Rogue to have the same CR wildshape as a Druid of their level as wildshape isn't that great of a feature for a Rogue when it comes to dpr (unarmed strikes and most beast weapons aren't finesse or ranged), so this will mostly be a Role play/adventuring feature.

Same CR but slower progression of type of creature should do nicely.

1/2 Rogue level would just be too much of a nerf.

[ji6]

I definitely think that you should allow the Rogue to have the same CR wildshape as a Druid of their level as wildshape isn't that great of a feature for a Rogue when it comes to dpr (unarmed strikes and most beast weapons aren't finesse or ranged), so this will mostly be a Role play/adventuring feature.

Same CR but slower progression of type of creature should do nicely.

1/2 Rogue level would just be too much of a nerf.

See, the current progression is something I struggled to accept initially as well. WotC stated in their modifying classes Unearthed Arcana that "Wild Shape is used largely for exploration purposes by Circle of the Land druids," and essentially the rogue is getting this version of Wild Shape. So, initially I thought just to allow them to follow the Druid progression (i.e. maxing out at level 8). The main problem is that I wanted them to be able to deal Sneak Attack with any form (currently, from level 3 in this archetype all attacks in beast form can apply sneak attack as if the natural weapon was a finesse weapon). Previously, I dis-joined the two features, letting one feature at level 9 grant sneak attack and then the Wild Shape following standard progression. The main problem is that made low levels very boring in combat and then level 9 became insane due to certain forms (mainly being the giant octopus, black bear, and owl). Basically, you got a huge surge at level 9 that felt weird as then you became one of the best explorers and a powerful fighter all in the span of 2 levels.

JNA suggested the current progression, and then Levism84 suggested simply allowing sneak attack at 3rd level. Although they did not know my thoughts about the above stuff, that combined with the nerf to Wild Shape made it play better at lower levels in my experience. Nerfing this also gave a surprising benefit: rouges get a boost from their archetype basically every two levels [I am planning to make a small change to grant magical beast strikes at 11 instead of 12].

To show this somewhat cool progression, you get wildshape at 3rd level, uncanny dodge at 5th to make you beefier, CR+aquatic at 7th level (and evasion), 9th level feature, 11th level magical beast strikes (for overcoming resistances), 13th level feature, 15th level CR+flying, 17th level feature. I really enjoy progressions like that from both a roleplaying perspective and a gamer's perspective.

With the fact that the cunning action gives you high movement speed from beast form + disengage, double speed, or some hiding action, other levels still feel quite nice in my experience. Although you break form with a single enemy attack at most levels, in a lot of environments you can use your high movement combined with rogues cunning to keep some cover or stay away from most of combat, which is how I feel rogues should try to play. Also, free HP for a character who has such a strong nova is generally nice. Uncanny dodge and evasion also gives you some damage reduction, which may allow you to stay in your form at certain times.

tldnr; the current progression feels more fun for playing in my opinion as you have constant progression. Also, cunning action & uncanny dodge (working in beast form as they are simply class features) with the sneak attack capabilities make the feature still play very nice in combat in my experience. Your idea is certainly something I am considering when I get more play experience (i.e. finishing a long campaign or 2 with the archetype), but there seems to be a lot of benefits leaving the current progression. Although, if you played as a DM and disagreed with this evaluation (or if a player felt really disappointed), you could easily change the progression as you wished ^+^


==============================

As an unrelated note to the above, I am currently thinking of doing certain quality of life changes.


Bonus Action Wild Shape: Currently, using Wild Shape takes an action, making it harder to use it twice in a single combat, or do feats of awesome in roleplay (like running up and morphing mid strike)
Magical Natural Attacks At Lvl 11: Mainly to keep the archetype progressing at every 2 levels instead of two back to back increases at level 12 then 13.


I am also thinking on clarifying on the Wild Shape a little bit, making it more clear that you do not have Combat Wild Shape (what makes moon druids badass), and that you can use your rogue class features (uncanny dodge, evasion, & cunning action) during all forms (the clause in the Wild Shape rules that "you retain the benefit of any features from your class, race, or other source and can use them if the new form is physically capable of doing so" could allow a DM to rule against this, but that goes against a lot of the considerations in the delayed progression).

[PoeticDwarf]

Hmmmm, if it is that unclear, I might add an edited Beast Shape chart to the PDF next time I edit it.
You don't have to. It is more my lack of the English language