Nice Things for Melee Wishlist

[hymer]

As we all know, melee can't have nice things. So what are some nice things that melee could have? I'd like to make a list of things, mostly for fun, but also to inspire a little thought, as I like to give PCs a little something extra when I DM, and melee could sure use it.
The generic term for what nice things melee would want is often 'options'. But let's try and be more specific. :smallsmile:

1: Full Attack + movement. Could be as simple as Pounce.
2: More than one good save. Many melee struggle through their careers with just one good save from their base class. Why is bravery a thing for casters, not for warriors?
3: A way to attack at range that doesn't make you MAD.

[Know(Nothing)]

4. A way to alleviate crit-fails on attack rolls.(I recommend modified Action Points/Hero Points)
5. Three-dimensional movement/flight.(Hard to get in-house, extremely expensive to do with items, grafts can be tricky to work out, etc. The best options require DM approval or the proper setting)
6. Condition application. (I know there are some in-house options for this, but it often requires specific builds to be good at)
7. Ability damage. (Same as above)
8. Out-of-combat relevance. (Uh. Good luck. Be a creative player, I suppose?)

Really you can be pretty lenient as DM with item options, feat options, beneficial rulings, etc. and still not worry too much about melees outshining casters. Depends on your players more than anything.

[darksolitaire]

4. A way to alleviate crit-fails on attack rolls.(I recommend modified Action Points/Hero Points)


Is that crit-fail as in fumble, or failure to confirm critical?

[avr]

It'd be nice to have a few out of combat options, for example:


Rapidly training a bunch of warriors
Retraining your own combat feats (not just once a level, and not with a teacher)
Story control; e.g. a rogue being able to define contacts on the fly
Legendary feats of strength; e.g. holding up a collapsing roof or something, not +4 Str.

[Bobby Baratheon]

6. Condition application. (I know there are some in-house options for this, but it often requires specific builds to be good at)

There's some definite potential here. Maybe it's a little videogamey, but eh. Melee deserves nice things too. I could easily see a generic feat allowing for its possessor to inflict conditions after a successful attack. You could even do like knock-down, where you can use a specific damage threshold as the "DC" for the attacker to hit in order to force the condition. I could see it breaking down like this (a rough, on-the-spot example):

-Feat: Arms master (or some such name)
Pre-reqs: Base attack bonus +x (I'm thinking maybe +5, but that's totally arbitrary), martial weapon proficiencies

A character with this feat may, upon inflicting x hp damage (I'm thinking 12 maybe?), force the recipient of the hp damage to make a Fortitude save (DC 10 + strength + 1/2 base attack bonus) to avoid recieving a negative condition. The specific condition inflicted is dependant on the type of weapon being used. This ability can only be used once a round.
-Bludgeoning: nauseated for 1 round + 1 additional round for every three points by which the victim failed his save
-Slashing: 5% of the amount of damage done (min. 1) is done to a physical abiltity score (Str, Dex or Con) of the attackers choice
-Piercing: 50% chance of paralysis. If successful, the target is paralyzed for one round + 1 additional round for each five points by which the victim failed his save. If the paralysis roll is unsuccessful, the target is sickened for 1 round + 1 additional round for each three points by which the victim failed his save.

Obviously this could and should be fine tuned farther, but I think it would make melee characters (and ranged, I suppose) very happy to be able to inflict save or suck conditions of their own.

EDIT: You could also include a Strength requirement.

[backwaterj]

4. A way to alleviate crit-fails on attack rolls.(I recommend modified Action Points/Hero Points)
Any of the various fate/luck related prestige classes, Luck domain, or Luck Feats can alleviate this.


5. Three-dimensional movement/flight.(Hard to get in-house, extremely expensive to do with items, grafts can be tricky to work out, etc. The best options require DM approval or the proper setting)
Winged Boots, 16,000 gp (DMG) provide 5 minutes of flight 3/day. 'Nuff said. Leave the exploratory flying to the wizards.


6. Condition application. (I know there are some in-house options for this, but it often requires specific builds to be good at)
There's quite a bit of stuff in ToB that can help you here, as well as Duskblade (PHBII) if you don't mind a gish-y aftertaste. Beyond that, poisons. Take that, Spell Resistance! :smallbiggrin:


8. Out-of-combat relevance. (Uh. Good luck. Be a creative player, I suppose?).
(Beyond good RP, which is, as MasterCard would have it, priceless) Having a decent skill point class (ranger, barbarian, swashbuckler, probably countless prestige classes) helps significantly.

[Bobby Baratheon]

Yeah, I agree. I definitely think the best way to make a dedicated combatant relevant outside of combat is good RP and working with your DM. Instead of Stabby being just a run of the mill fighter, have Stabby have former associates (mercenaries, soldiers, knightly orders, etc.). That way, Stabby can contribute beyond his humble skill point totals by being able to call in favors, hook the party up with sweet jobs, etc. To use a classic example, Hannibal was the leader of the A-team despite not being the party "face" (with the eponymous Faceman having that honor). Why? His tactical contributions and overall leadership made him invaluable to his party. I don't see why a melee character in D&D can't do the same thing. Maybe the wizard is (a lot) smarter, but you probably know more about actual battlefield tactics (and if you the player do actually know more than Batman's player, well then RPing that shouldn't be all that hard). Use creativity and good role-playing to carve a niche out for yourself beyond beatsticking, and you'll do fine as a melee (or any character, really).

[backwaterj]

2: More than one good save. Many melee struggle through their careers with just one good save from their base class. Why is bravery a thing for casters, not for warriors?
Monk/swordsage anyone? I know they're hardly considered optimal but for save/defensive purposes pure gold (especially given swordsage gets Wis bonus on top of light armor up to and including mithral breastplate). Plus many DMs are generous with the houserules here.

(@^: You had me at Murdock. Flattery will get you everywhere. :smallbiggrin:)

[Bobby Baratheon]

You could give melees a floating bonus equal to some modifier (I'm using the Dark One's Own Luck warlock invocation as a base here), and let him assign that to one save each day. That lets him beef up the save he thinks he'll need most (looking at you, Will) while giving flexibility. Or just be a high Cha paladin, I guess.

EDIT: Call it heroic spirit or something.

[backwaterj]

You could give melees a floating bonus equal to some modifier (I'm using the Dark One's Own Luck warlock invocation as a base here), and let him assign that to one save each day. That lets him beef up the save he thinks he'll need most (looking at you, Will) while giving flexibility. Or just be a high Cha paladin, I guess.

EDIT: Call it heroic spirit or something.
Was playing around with a gestalt nymph paladin for a bit. Oh, how quickly it got ridiculous . . .

[Bobby Baratheon]

It's always nice to get your best modifier tacked on to saves :smalltongue: I'm currently playing a warlock/sorceror (warceror? sorlock?) with 24 charisma at level 5. Dark One's Own Luck just keeps getting better and better, especially since I can cast it at will. :smallbiggrin:

[backwaterj]

It's always nice to get your best modifier tacked on to saves :smalltongue: I'm currently playing a warlock/sorceror (warceror? sorlock?) with 24 charisma at level 5. Dark One's Own Luck just keeps getting better and better, especially since I can cast it at will. :smallbiggrin:

This'd be so much more tempting if I didn't have foreknowledge of the Dark One's luck.

"Be of good cheer, for I have overcome the world." -John 16:33 aka most OP prestige class evar!

(Happy Christmas/Saturnalia/Winter Veil/Misc. Holiday of Choice to all!)

[Dread_Head]

Was playing around with a gestalt nymph paladin for a bit. Oh, how quickly it got ridiculous . . .

At one point I played a Gloura (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20031003e) // Paladin / Battledancer / Bard. Had like 30 Cha and got it to AC and saves at least twice each :smallbiggrin:

In terms of what melee needs I second the suggestions made here, particularly the one about condition / ability damage infliction. There are a few feats / class abilities which do this but they all have so many prerequisites/limitations that they are extremely difficult to implement.

Rather than simply improving all saves (because that just encourages casters to use spells which don't require saves) I'd rather see some sort of ability to shrug off magical effects along the lines of Iron Heart Surge. Something like 1/encounter/4 levels or something you can ignore the effects of one spell for a round (or a few rounds). This lets the melee combatant smash through the BFC to get where they need to be / ignore the devastating debuff while they get their attacks in etc.

[backwaterj]

Rather than simply improving all saves (because that just encourages casters to use spells which don't require saves) I'd rather see some sort of ability to shrug off magical effects along the lines of Iron Heart Surge. Something like 1/encounter/4 levels or something you can ignore the effects of one spell for a round (or a few rounds). This lets the melee combatant smash through the BFC to get where they need to be / ignore the devastating debuff while they get their attacks in etc.

This seems like the ultimate metagame to me, unless your character has legitimate reason to suspect foul play. I think we need to keep in perspective (underpowered as they may be) that our melee characters exist within a finite universe in which their perception is also finite . . .

Of course, this in itself implies the GM/opposing PCs abide by the same mechanic . . . which is admittedly asking a lot.

#hopingforutopiawhilstgettingstabbedrepeatedlyinth eback

[Dread_Head]

This seems like the ultimate metagame to me, unless your character has legitimate reason to suspect foul play. I think we need to keep in perspective (underpowered as they may be) that our melee characters exist within a finite universe in which their perception is also finite . . .

Of course, this in itself implies the GM/opposing PCs abide by the same mechanic . . . which is admittedly asking a lot.

#hopingforutopiawhilstgettingstabbedrepeatedlyinth eback

I dunno. I'd say that if it only works on spells you character is aware of (so not on illusions they have yet to perceive, spells with no visual effect etc) then it isn't really metagamey. Your character is simply so tough and has built up enough resistance to magic that they can with enough determination temporarily brush aside the effects of a spell. There are plenty of examples in fiction of characters with this sort of ability.

[ace rooster]

This seems like the ultimate metagame to me, unless your character has legitimate reason to suspect foul play. I think we need to keep in perspective (underpowered as they may be) that our melee characters exist within a finite universe in which their perception is also finite . . .

Of course, this in itself implies the GM/opposing PCs abide by the same mechanic . . . which is admittedly asking a lot.

#hopingforutopiawhilstgettingstabbedrepeatedlyinth eback

dnd land is a world where floors, walls, ceilings, and furniture can turn out to be monsters trying to kill you. Any adventurer that has made it past level 4 always suspects foul play. :smalltongue:

Topping my wishlist would be some universal defenses. The ability to convert status effects to HP damage would be nice, and against minor effects gives you something more to think about. It slightly changes the meaning of HP, so you would probably want to rejig con into DR rather than adding directly to HP, as otherwise con becomes even more important. Having a larger Hit dice then becomes much more important. Gone would be the days of characters losing at full HP because they were not immune to some status effect.

Next I would get rid of the mechanics that make melee easy to ignore. Tumble to avoid AoOs would go, as would casting defensively. Additionally if hit by an AoO there would be a fort save to keep moving, and you have the option to use an immediate action to spend your next rounds 5 ft step or 5 ft of movement at any time (envisioned uses are diving into cover or chasing down a caster). The idea is to make being in melee much harder to get out of without effort, and much more of a problem for non meleers, even if they are not massively lethal.


The problem is that the only way to be relevant as a melee is to do tons of damage. Any other build can simply be walked around and ignored, or 5 foot adjusted away from by casters. See monk for example. If we make it so that you can shut down casters simply be being in their face, then suddenly less lethal builds become relevant.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

How about the ability to be competent at various facets of martial fighting without requiring a feat for every little thing?

Bull rushing? Currently needs feats to be even vaguely competent.

Tripping? Currently needs feats to be even vaguely competent.

Hitting extra hard at the expense of accuracy? Currently needs feats to be even vaguely competent do at all.

Parrying? Currently needs feats to be even vaguely competent do at all.

Shoulder-ramming opponents to knock them back? Currently needs feats to be even vaguely competent.

HITTING SOMEONE WITH YOUR &^%%ING FIST? Currently needs feats to be even vaguely competent.

It's ridiculous that someone who stabs things with a sharp stick needs intense training and has to spend precious build resources to even think about doing what they've trained all their lives to do, whereas rewriting reality in a half-dozen different ways doesn't.

[tsj]

Maybe a feat for melee types thart req pure bab and no magic or psi to avoid allowing eldritch knight et al to use it

This feat ahould give
spellresist
Skillpts
Sneak attack
a lot of combat feats and the like
All non combat feats

[Quertus]

Better party buff spells. Give the spellcasters incentive to buff the whole party in ways that make melee relevant: mass resist, mass fly, mass strength, mass magical weapon, etc. And make them lower level spells than you think they should be, that last longer than you think they should.

Mundane party buffs. Let the mundanes help with party buffs - morale bonuses, competence bonuses, tactical bonuses, etc.

More arms. One of the biggest limiting factors to how effective melee can be is how few arms most combatants have. Make adding additional arms easier.

More templates. If they had the ability to pick up and buy off templates mid game, 1 LA at a time, melee could solve their lack of immunities and lack of flying problems. And make Tzeentch happy. :)

More treasure. Mundanes rely more on their gear than magic users, and most people in melee aren't mages. For those who are...

More ability to convert spells to melee damage.

Imagine if, when they first encountered a foe, the whole party spent the first round buffing the party: the bard cheered the party on, giving everyone a bonus to hit; the rogue pointed out weak spots, giving everyone a bonus to damage; the fighter threatened everyone's life, giving everyone an extra attack; the cleric prayed for our souls, giving everyone a bonus to saving throws. Or, better yet, imagine if this was a free action for everyone involved, and Imagine if no one had to expend any resources to do this. Wouldn't that be nice?

[Bobby Baratheon]

I like the idea of better party buffs, but I feel like that dances around the core problem of melees, in and of themselves, being rather useless. Maybe feats that grant immunities and scale would help? A scaling spell resistance would make it at least reasonably difficult to consistently pound them with magic (with the option of a feat to boost it further). Immunity to death effects would be nice - maybe an ability to re-roll saves against magical effects?

For the scaling spell resistance, you could have it equal to BAB + a mental modifier (maybe Cha? or Wis?), with the feat multiplying the BAB part by 1.25 or 1.5. I like the spell resistance because it makes them resistant to magic without being invulnerable, and it's pretty easy to build around that with anti-magic feats that would require SR x as prereqs.

I also like the idea of being able to add on templates. A list of templates that require prereqs for them to enter would be almost like a mini-prestige class, and would make melees a lot more playable and customizable.

Example: Hot-blooded (template)
Prereqs: +5 BAB, power attack, and rage (one other feat on the fighter's bonus feat list may be substituted for rage as a prerequisite)
+2 Str, -2 Wis, +2 Initiative, +1 to Str checks (on top of the Str bonus), -1 to perception checks (on top of the Wisdom penalty), and some special ability (maybe an AC or attack bonus after taking damage in an encounter)

[MaxiDuRaritry]

I like the idea of better party buffs, but I feel like that dances around the core problem of melees, in and of themselves, being rather useless. Maybe feats that grant immunities and scale would help? A scaling spell resistance would make it at least reasonably difficult to consistently pound them with magic (with the option of a feat to boost it further). Immunity to death effects would be nice - maybe an ability to re-roll saves against magical effects?

For the scaling spell resistance, you could have it equal to BAB + a mental modifier (maybe Cha? or Wis?), with the feat multiplying the BAB part by 1.25 or 1.5. I like the spell resistance because it makes them resistant to magic without being invulnerable, and it's pretty easy to build around that with anti-magic feats that would require SR x as prereqs.

I also like the idea of being able to add on templates. A list of templates that require prereqs for them to enter would be almost like a mini-prestige class, and would make melees a lot more playable and customizable.

Example: Hot-blooded (template)
Prereqs: +5 BAB, power attack, and rage (one other feat on the fighter's bonus feat list may be substituted for rage as a prerequisite)
+2 Str, -2 Wis, +2 Initiative, +1 to Str checks (on top of the Str bonus), -1 to perception checks (on top of the Wisdom penalty), and some special ability (maybe an AC or attack bonus after taking damage in an encounter)Stuff like that should be a given for martial classes, rather than feats. Feats are seriously stretched as it is for martial types, and throwing even more out there that they need to take won't help matters at all.

[Bobby Baratheon]

That's why the SR would be a class feature, with a feat available to enhance it further. The templates are just templates you would have to qualify for; I think the prereqs that I gave were pretty reasonable (are there melee characters that don't take power attack?).

As for the anti-magic feats, I meant more advanced stuff that would require a certain SR to take, but would be ancillary to theoretical anti-magic class features.

EDIT: I do agree with you that competence should be assumed for martial characters for special maneuvers (bull rush, overrun, etc.) and that any feats or class features should improve upon that assumed competence.

[Apricot]

More choices in combat. Playing casters in combat is fun, because every one of your spells can have a creative and interesting use for it, even down to the point of cantrips. Message, for example, can be used to Bluff an individual enemy into doing something stupid without letting their higher-Wis compatriot listen in and give away the game. Melee combatants don't have that kind of luxury. Their choices in combat tend to be quite restricted by the rules, and decisionmaking can be reduced to mathematical damage optimization. There's not a ton of creativity available. So, maybe adding some more skill points so that they can use those imaginatively, giving loose interpretations to feats so that you can do more with them, or just allowing good roleplaying to grant interesting results ("I take a wild swing at the vampire's jaw, aiming to knock its teeth out!" "Okay, -4 to hit, but if you land it, they lose their bite attacks.") would make melee combatants way more interesting to play and probably a lot stronger as well.

[backwaterj]

I dunno. I'd say that if it only works on spells you character is aware of (so not on illusions they have yet to perceive, spells with no visual effect etc) then it isn't really metagamey. Your character is simply so tough and has built up enough resistance to magic that they can with enough determination temporarily brush aside the effects of a spell. There are plenty of examples in fiction of characters with this sort of ability.
You have a point.


How about the ability to be competent at various facets of martial fighting without requiring a feat for every little thing?

Bull rushing? Currently needs feats to be even vaguely competent.

Tripping? Currently needs feats to be even vaguely competent.

Hitting extra hard at the expense of accuracy? Currently needs feats to be even vaguely competent do at all.

Parrying? Currently needs feats to be even vaguely competent do at all.

Shoulder-ramming opponents to knock them back? Currently needs feats to be even vaguely competent.

HITTING SOMEONE WITH YOUR &^%%ING FIST? Currently needs feats to be even vaguely competent.

It's ridiculous that someone who stabs things with a sharp stick needs intense training and has to spend precious build resources to even think about doing what they've trained all their lives to do, whereas rewriting reality in a half-dozen different ways doesn't.
The way I read it, feats come about as the result of said training. They don't just happen in a vacuum. There's a reason that the fighter class's main merit is a multitude of feats (not that fighter is anything approaching an optimized class, but it has that going for it).

Tripping and disarming become viable with the right reach weapon (assuming your enemies don't likewise have reach, which in my experience they seldom do unless their Str and size bonus makes this an unviable tactic anyway). If they're armed with polearms themselves, 5-foot step and do likewise with a non-reach weapon (you did bring options, right? And if not, why not? :smallwink:). All this requires zero feats, just basic martial proficiency.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

The way I read it, feats come about as the result of said training. They don't just happen in a vacuum. There's a reason that the fighter class's main merit is a multitude of feats (not that fighter is anything approaching an optimized class, but it has that going for it).

Tripping and disarming become viable with the right reach weapon (assuming your enemies don't likewise have reach, which in my experience they seldom do unless their Str and size bonus makes this an unviable tactic anyway). If they're armed with polearms themselves, 5-foot step and do likewise with a non-reach weapon (you did bring options, right? And if not, why not? :smallwink:). All this requires zero feats, just basic martial proficiency.Basic melee proficiency means you should be able to parry with a weapon even at novice level. Provoking AoOs for even the most basic of armed maneuvers means you're completely untrained and unskilled. You shouldn't have to wait until you're nearly 20th level to avoid being untrained and unskilled.

Like I said, acquiring basic proficiency at poking things with sharp sticks requires a huge amount of investment, whereas rewriting reality does not. How does that make any sense whatsoever?

[ZamielVanWeber]

Winged Boots, 16,000 gp (DMG) provide 5 minutes of flight 3/day. 'Nuff said. Leave the exploratory flying to the wizards.

Winged Mask is similar except it is 13,000 gp and you can use fly at will. I see no reason why only wizards should get to do out of combat things.

[backwaterj]

Basic melee proficiency means you should be able to parry with a weapon even at novice level. Provoking AoOs for even the most basic of armed maneuvers means you're completely untrained and unskilled. You shouldn't have to wait until you're nearly 20th level to avoid being untrained and unskilled.

Like I said, acquiring basic proficiency at poking things with sharp sticks requires a huge amount of investment, whereas rewriting reality does not. How does that make any sense whatsoever?
I'm not disagreeing that melee gets the short end of the stick, class ability-wise. And I do agree that the parrying thing is sort of silly (depending on the weapon you're wielding; I can't see parrying with a spiked chain or gauntlet being precisely easy).

However, AoOs abound in real-life and fictional examples. Even the expert swashbuckler risks a slash to his midriff as he goes to knock the sword out of his opponent's hand, or a hack at his shoulder as he closes to kick his enemy's legs out from under him. These are risky maneuvers and most people can't do them without compromising their defense a bit, reflected by the AoO. While you have to assume a basic level of competence for your character, you have to also assume a basic level of competence for his (presumably likewise trained) opponents.

To put it in perspective, a 3rd-level human fighter (hardly an expert by any stretch of the term) can have Power Attack, Combat Expertise, Improved Trip, Improved Disarm, and Improved Bull Rush. I don't see this as unreasonable. The fighter has chosen to focus training on these advanced techniques. The fact that other melee classes don't get them (as quickly) reflects their focus in other areas: wilderness survival, spellcasting, martial arts trickery, and whatnot.


Winged Mask is similar except it is 13,000 gp and you can use fly at will. I see no reason why only wizards should get to do out of combat things.
Good to know. Where is that found, if you don't mind me asking?

[avr]

Yeah, I agree. I definitely think the best way to make a dedicated combatant relevant outside of combat is good RP and working with your DM ...
See, the problem there is that non-melee types can also have good RP and work with the DM, have similar or even more skill points (compare 10 Int barbarian vs. 18 Int wizard, or a 10 Int bard) and have other class abilities which are more likely to be directly relevant. That's why I'd suggest that throwing a bone to those relatively disadvantaged out of combat is a good idea.

[backwaterj]

True, but there are ways to get melee classes with as many or more skill points. Besides the obvious rogue, swashbuckler has 4+Int and rewards high intelligence with melee damage, or there's duskblade if you don't mind going a little gishy.

[avr]

Yup. Non-magic types have similar (or often less) skill points and less relevant class abilities - you don't seem to be disagreeing with me, yet somehow you think that all is well. I'm not sure how that works.

[backwaterj]

I'm not meaning to disagree with you per se, merely pointing out that there are workarounds if one equates good skill ranks/selection with good RP (I personally don't; I think a character is better defined by faults, which may become easier and not harder to reflect in a low-skill character, but I digress.)

That said, they're not all lower. A rogue with 10 Intelligence has as many skill points as a wizard with 22. Give that rogue a couple points of Int bonus and suddenly he becomes much better at stuff than any of the party casters, and skills that run the gambit from Appraise to Diplomacy to Swim.

For comparison, take your average sorcerer. He's built around Dex/Cha, with no intelligence bonus. 2 skill points per level, and virtually nothing to choose from.

As for class abilities useful out of combat, they're there, just not as blatantly obvious as someone with a decent amount of spells to throw around. Look at a paladin's detect evil ability, for example, or a ranger's favored enemy bonus (remember this works just as well on Bluff and Sense Motive as it does on weapon damage).

I'm not saying all is well, I'm saying the situation is salvageable if you build carefully. That said, I wouldn't be against house-ruling more skills and/or abilities for certain melee classes (I'm looking at you, fighter!) :smallamused:

[MaxiDuRaritry]

A rogue with 10 Intelligence has as many skill points as a wizard with 18 22.That's better.

[backwaterj]

Thank you, for some reason I was remembering wizard at 4 per level instead of 2. Probably because they're so much better with skills than the sorcerer. :smallbiggrin:

[Amphetryon]

1. There are cheaper options than Winged Boots; grafts, for instance. I heartily recommend them.

2. The ability to add meaningful rider conditions to hits in Melee, tied specifically to the 'mundane' Class mechanics in ways that full Casters can't just crib via Feats.

[backwaterj]

1. There are cheaper options than Winged Boots; grafts, for instance. I heartily recommend them.

Not for the faint of heart though (it's tough to walk around town with a pair of huge demon wings coming out of your back and keep a low profile). Thanks, but I'll take a magic item I can remove. :smalltongue:


2. The ability to add meaningful rider conditions to hits in Melee, tied specifically to the 'mundane' Class mechanics in ways that full Casters can't just crib via Feats.
I'd love to see more of this as well. Tome of Battle gave us some usable stuff, but I'd like to see it for non-adept classes, maybe even weapons (i.e. if you critical hit with a maul or warhammer, the target is stunned for 1 round). But that's a lot of house-ruling.

[avr]

I'm not suggesting that many skill ranks are required for good RP (though they're certainly helpful or even required for some concepts), more that we were talking about balance in characters' ability to affect the world originally. To that end:

Good RP & working with the GM is possible for all types of characters;
More skill points is not generally an advantage on the melee types side (for every sorcerer there's an 8 int barbarian or just about any fighter);
Class abilities (like, say, the ability to cast fly or invisibility) are a huge advantage on the magical types side (items are at least equally available to magical and non- or low-magic characters);

Therefore, it might be a good idea to give the melee types something for out of combat use. I had a few suggestions many posts back. You could do this explicitly, or informally with the GM favouring the melee concepts which work with them, which I think some people have hinted at earlier in this thread. I prefer explicit if you're setting up something in advance.

[Amphetryon]

Not for the faint of heart though (it's tough to walk around town with a pair of huge demon wings coming out of your back and keep a low profile). Thanks, but I'll take a magic item I can remove. :smalltongue:


I'd love to see more of this as well. Tome of Battle gave us some usable stuff, but I'd like to see it for non-adept classes, maybe even weapons (i.e. if you critical hit with a maul or warhammer, the target is stunned for 1 round). But that's a lot of house-ruling.

1. Those grafts + Hat of Disguise are cheaper and more versatile than the limited use Winged Boots. A DM that really makes this an issue in fantasy settings where Centaurs, Minotaurs, and Hippogriffs are reasonably expected - not to mention the various Animal Companion options - is selectively denying options to those PCs who already have more limited options.

2. See, when I see the title include the phrase 'Wishlist,' that tells me to look for solutions that may not be within the standard RAW of 3.X. Otherwise, the request would be for a 'Standard Toolkit' or similar. Complaints about houserules when asked about a Wishlist have the same tone, to my ear, as the folks who explain to small children exactly how fast Santa has to travel every December 25th.

[backwaterj]

1. Those grafts + Hat of Disguise are cheaper and more versatile than the limited use Winged Boots. A DM that really makes this an issue in fantasy settings where Centaurs, Minotaurs, and Hippogriffs are reasonably expected - not to mention the various Animal Companion options - is selectively denying options to those PCs who already have more limited options.
Centaurs, minotaurs, and hippogriffs in most fantasy settings will raise eyebrows walking through the middle of town as well. Hat of Disguise is a decent workaround but you have to be careful about touch and possibly sound (which are explicitly not covered by Disguise Self), and if you run into true seeing or dispel effects (unlikely in town, but as you said the setting is fantasy) there may be issues.


2. See, when I see the title include the phrase 'Wishlist,' that tells me to look for solutions that may not be within the standard RAW of 3.X. Otherwise, the request would be for a 'Standard Toolkit' or similar. Complaints about houserules when asked about a Wishlist have the same tone, to my ear, as the folks who explain to small children exactly how fast Santa has to travel every December 25th.
I'm not complaining about anything (as a matter of fact I've worked on a number of houserules along these lines). My MO is always look at the existing material first, to see if a solution is already there. If not, houserule away!

[Bobby Baratheon]

Just to be clear, I'm not saying that their out of combat relevance should be based only on RP. I'm just saying that's the best way for any character, including melee. I do agree with you that they should get more skill points, but outside of that what exactly do you want from them? Spellcasters are so good at out of combat stuff (and ocmbat stuff) precisely because they're spellcasters. Comes with the package. What would be melee's equivalent? Where the games stands, I only really see skills and RP granting them that relevance (without just straight up giving them magic), or nerfing casters (which this thread is not about). If you can think of a better alternative, I would love to hear it and would probably add it into my campaign.

EDIT: This was in response to Avr.

EDIT2: With regards to meaningful rider conditions for melee, I did post an example mechanic of that earlier in the thread.

[Amphetryon]

Centaurs, minotaurs, and hippogriffs in most fantasy settings will raise eyebrows walking through the middle of town as well. Hat of Disguise is a decent workaround but you have to be careful about touch and possibly sound (which are explicitly not covered by Disguise Self), and if you run into true seeing or dispel effects (unlikely in town, but as you said the setting is fantasy) there may be issues.

Your experience with fantasy settings clearly differs from mine or those with whom I've gamed over the years. If you have a solution which can defeat the objection 'there may be issues,' please specify it, or I shall simply consider it a default condition that always applies (and is thus not grounds for legitimate complaint).

[ace rooster]

Centaurs, minotaurs, and hippogriffs in most fantasy settings will raise eyebrows walking through the middle of town as well. Hat of Disguise is a decent workaround but you have to be careful about touch and possibly sound (which are explicitly not covered by Disguise Self), and if you run into true seeing or dispel effects (unlikely in town, but as you said the setting is fantasy) there may be issues.


I'm not complaining about anything (as a matter of fact I've worked on a number of houserules along these lines). My MO is always look at the existing material first, to see if a solution is already there. If not, houserule away!

Given that 50% of magic items give off light as a torch, adventurers will generally raise eyebrows anyway. Travelling with a minotaur and riding a hippogriff are only going to add to an effect that is already there.

It is a bit like celebreties. Film stars will generally raise a few eyebrows, but it will not actually impede them from most actions. Ariving in a ferrari with a rolex may make them more noticable, but are not really going to change anyone's reaction to them too much. Eyebrows have to be raised a very long way to actually have an impact on basic function. You will be remembered though.

A hat of disguise works well enough in daylight, but at night people may start to wonder why you are giving off light as a torch without appearing to hold any light source. You will stand out like a sore thumb in a dark dingy bar if there are shadows about.

[avr]

... I do agree with you that they should get more skill points, but outside of that what exactly do you want from them? Spellcasters are so good at out of combat stuff (and ocmbat stuff) precisely because they're spellcasters. Comes with the package. What would be melee's equivalent? ...

It'd be nice to have a few out of combat options, for example:


Rapidly training a bunch of warriors
Retraining your own combat feats (not just once a level, and not with a teacher)
Story control; e.g. a rogue being able to define contacts on the fly
Legendary feats of strength; e.g. holding up a collapsing roof or something, not +4 Str.

These were my thoughts earlier.

[ZamielVanWeber]

Good to know. Where is that found, if you don't mind me asking?

Magic of Faerun, although mechanically it has nothing to do with the setting.

[Triskavanski]

Big things I'd do for Muggle type classes

Improve combat system - Add more featless options in how you fight. Some improve off skill points, some improve off combat prowess (BAB).

Reality bending abilities - By that I mean sure you can do a lot of damage as a barbarian if you hit. But somehow being able to deal 50+ points of damage with a single swing of your sword doesn't allow you to translate into anything cool, when its several times what you used to be doing and what 'normal' people can do.

Perhaps something where you can fire a 'cannon' of force. Maybe pulling some stuff from anime, being able to invoke a 'Murderous Intent' where people around you become frightened or panicked, otherwise backing off.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Look through various comic books, cartoons, and other sources of fiction for extraordinary feats done without any supernatural ability. Look at the things done by Superman, the Hulk, Saitama, and others, and translate those to the d20 system.

[Apricot]

It's also worth checking out non-magician class abilities in various CRPGs, like MMOs and dungeoncrawlers. If the class is called "Warrior," chances are it has some imaginative stuff in it. For example, in Guild Wars 2 there's a Warrior (technically Berserker) ability called Headbutt, which stuns both your character and your target - but the target for longer. One could imagine something like that running off of a Fortitude save, which melee combatants tend to be better at. Good way to lock down a spellcaster, and then there are things from that same game such as Shouts (various area effects that you can take as a swift action), Stances (temporary buffs that work as a free action), and so on. I'm pretty sure all of these show up in d20 books as well, even some in D&D itself, but it's still nice to look at. That's just for combat, though.

[yellowrocket]

Allow muggle characters to jump to flying foes. Sure we can't fly bit I can still reach you.

Base attack bonus becomes a base attack multiplier. So instead of 1d8 plus enhancements plus bab it's 1d8 plus enhancements times bab.

More skill points for out of combat versitility.

Reduced feat chains for muggles for combat. Let the pros be pros. Things like weapon focus should be part of what makes you a fighter. That gets to the very core of the character concept.


I'm sure I'll think of more viable concepts that I might try to add in to the game.