To kill someone beyond a deity's intervention

[Selion]

When i designed the campaign i'm running, a pair of years ago, i didn't cover every little detail of the story that would have uncovered just after years, confident that some minor holes could be fit later.

Now, some major issues of the adventure concern an assassination of a mortal dear to a deity (intermediate deity, but i've not to be strict in gods' hierarchy power levels), and the desperation the deity felt.
The murderer is a high level sorcerer (level 15 to 18), but not an epic level character. He happens to be specialized in soul binding and imprisonment, as well as in frost spells.
So i need him to have killed someone beyond repair, even when deities are involved. How could him have obtained such an achievement?

[John Longarrow]

Don't Kill them... at least not in the normal manner.

Imprison their soul on a plane the deity doesn't hold power on. Example would be to drag them to hell then cast imprison on them. Effectively dead but can't be brought back.

[Jormengand]

And Stay Out: A Guide to Staying Dead (For the Other Guy) (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?419197-And-Stay-Out-A-Guide-to-Staying-Dead-%28for-the-other-guy%29)

[backwaterj]

If the murderer is a high-level sorcerer, and the victim a mortal, the assassination goes off without a hitch...

...HOWEVER...

A sorcerer, even an epic-level one, falls well below the power of even a lesser deity.

Assuming the victim is (as in OP) dear to the deity, or even in a lesser case of interest to the deity in question:

The deity in question immediately takes a dislike/grudge against the killer. He/she/it/they want(s) retaliation in kind. And being a deity, he/she/it/they basically get it.

Seriously, though, I'd allow a Knowledge (or at least Wisdom) check to reveal this is REALLY A BAD IDEA.

If I were a more capricious deity, I'd allow him/her/it/they to pull it off, but apply the same restrictions/burdens to the caster.

[Chronos]

For anything a mortal can do, there's always some deity who can undo it. But not all deities. Any deity who lacks the Life or Life and Death salient divine power has no more resources for dealing with death than does a high-level mortal. Since you're creating the world, just say that the deity in question doesn't have those particular abilities, and come up with some reason why the deities who do have them are unwilling to help him or her.

[Uncle Pine]

What's the deity portfolio? Does it have the power to shape reality at will? You mentioned that you aren't strictly using deities normal power level, so how much is this deity powerful?
Generally speaking, unless the deity can foresee it one week in advance because it's connected to its portfolio or is paranoid enough to see it coming through divinations*, Plane Shift (Far Realm) is a neat way to dispose of someone unless this someone can't die of old age**.
*This could be extremely unlikely depending on how gods act in your campaign. For example, in Faerun deities actively engage each other so they tend to be more paranoid than those from a campaign where gods are mostly silent.
**This could also be unlikely especially if the Sorcerer's target is the deity's lover or something like that.

This (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?419197-And-Stay-Out-A-Guide-to-Staying-Dead-(for-the-other-guy)) thread has a bunch of other nice little ways to keep your enemies dead. See if something applies to your case.

[Xuldarinar]

Don't kill him.

Incapacitate him in the manner of your choosing, take his body to the 73rd layer of the abyss, and throw him into the Shattered Night.


Alternatively;

Find a cerebrotic blot, take him to the center and throw him into the cerebrotic core, casting him into the far realm and let that realm take care of him.


In either case he is removed, body and soul, from reality.

[Mr.Moron]

He has an artifact/item/spell that while not particularly powerful in terms of damage or typical game stats, when it kills a living being it also destroys their soul. No soul nothing left to go to the afterlife, nothing left to resurrect, nothing left at all. Since your the DM you can always just introduce new content that does what you need to. It's not like you're a player For example you might be able to cook up a spell something like this:


Oblivion
Evocation[Evil]
Level: Sorcerer 9*
Casting Time: 1 Round
Range: Medium
Effect: Ray
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: See Text
Spell Resistance: Yes

A black ray of void energy springs from your intertwined fingers. You must make a successful ranged touch attack to hit. Any creature struck by the ray takes 1d12 points of damage per caster level (to a maximum of 20d12). Any creature killed by has their body completely erased leaving no remains and must make a will saving throw. On a failure their soul is utterly annihilated nothing of their existence in the cosmos.

A fortitude saving throw resists a great portion of the damage reducing it to 2d12 and preventing the spell from destroying their body or soul.

Each time this spell is cast the caster must make a fortitude saving throw (DC 16), on a failure the spell slot used to cast the spell is lost permanently and their charisma score is reduced by 2.

This spell cannot be learned normally and can only be learned by being hit by the spell, willingly failing the fortitude saving throw and surviving. If this happens a Sorcerer hit by the spell may make a wisdom save (DC 22) and learn this spell.

It accomplishes what you're looking to do, has a fair means for the players to pick it up if they want to and isn't grossly out of line with other spell effects that would normally be available to them. If this murder is a PC and they need to have the tool added to their arsenal (the post is a bit unclear), let them find a dungeon where some ancient and terrible thing can cast this spell so they can get hit by it.

[noob]

Other solution: truenamers.
A GM might rule that breaking a Thinaun weapon release the soul but a gm will not necesarily think to what happens if the steel axe becomes a Thinaun axe then is used to kill the target and then stops being made of Thinaun because the utterance duration ends.

[Selion]

And Stay Out: A Guide to Staying Dead (For the Other Guy) (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?419197-And-Stay-Out-A-Guide-to-Staying-Dead-%28for-the-other-guy%29)

This guide is brilliant. A few of the suggestions are not "beautiful" storywise, but the multiple murder/resurrection cicle to drain constitution or the mindrape "i don't want to live evermore" are immensely evil and would fit the theme of the campaign.

EDIT: nope, i just checked true resurrection at pathfinder works without negative levels. So the only thing that would work is make the victim unwilling to return to life, feat that must be obtained without magic

[Selion]

For anything a mortal can do, there's always some deity who can undo it. But not all deities. Any deity who lacks the Life or Life and Death salient divine power has no more resources for dealing with death than does a high-level mortal. Since you're creating the world, just say that the deity in question doesn't have those particular abilities, and come up with some reason why the deities who do have them are unwilling to help him or her.

The god in question has not life and death in his portfolio, and other deities may have good reasons that would prevent them to help him.
Anyway, wish/miracle is the lowest bound of a deity power, so i must at least overcome what multiple wishes could do.

[Mr Adventurer]

There are plenty of gods with no powers that equal or exceed that of Wish and Miracle, save their portfolio senses.

[Doctor Despair]

Cutting the astral cord in some manner is always an effective way to keep people dead. :)

[ericgrau]

You may want to come up with reasons why the deities don't heavily intervene with mortals in general. The most likely reason is that they are too busy with other conflicts. But if the mortal is dear to the deity he may at least warrant some time. Perhaps the deity sends agents to kill the high level sorcerer, or perhaps those agents are the PCs themselves. He can't walk away from his major divine conflicts to do it himself, but he can send minor help and visions.

[OldTrees1]

Give the soul to another deity for even Zeus could not demand Hades release Persephone.

[Âmesang]

Something from the Book of Vile Darkness that always stuck out in my mind, typically regarding the use of a soul as an extra material component for spells or magic items. Page 33:

Using a soul in any way other than simply transferring it as barter consumes it completely, destroying it forever. Destroying a soul is an evil act of the blackest sort, even if the soul was evil itself.

[FocusWolf413]

Sell the soul to one of the Lords of Nine.

[Selion]

If the murderer is a high-level sorcerer, and the victim a mortal, the assassination goes off without a hitch...

...HOWEVER...

A sorcerer, even an epic-level one, falls well below the power of even a lesser deity.

Assuming the victim is (as in OP) dear to the deity, or even in a lesser case of interest to the deity in question:

The deity in question immediately takes a dislike/grudge against the killer. He/she/it/they want(s) retaliation in kind. And being a deity, he/she/it/they basically get it.

Seriously, though, I'd allow a Knowledge (or at least Wisdom) check to reveal this is REALLY A BAD IDEA.

If I were a more capricious deity, I'd allow him/her/it/they to pull it off, but apply the same restrictions/burdens to the caster.

It's not like this sorcerer dared to challenge deities alone, he is a mere pawn of greater schemes. What i need is just that the loss for the deity is irreparable enough to give him a great despair.

[Platymus Pus]

You really can't do that, deities are a major extension of the GM's possible powers most times. Everything below that is fair game though.

[Helluin]

I noticed that you were playing Pathfinder, so I suppose the said murderer could sell the soul to one of the more powerful daemonic deacons/harbingers and convince it to bring the soul to its master? Since I'm pretty sure in PF a soul consumed by a Horseman is beyond saving even by divine intervention.

It might prove difficult for a mortal, even a high level sorcerer, to convince a Horseman of the Apocalypse though, especially when the Horseman is probably fully aware the consequences of eating a soul dear to a deity.

[Selion]

You really can't do that, deities are a major extension of the GM's possible powers most times. Everything below that is fair game though.

Quite this, the only real options are some psychological means that would make the mortal unwilling to return, or some powerful artifact. The soul consumption by daemons or other beings is also an option, but i should change a little the story, to involve a powerful entity as an ally

[Inevitability]

Quite this, the only real options are some psychological means that would make the mortal unwilling to return.

Actually, certain deities can just ignore a mortal's unwillingness to return.

[Garktz]

Not technically killing her/him but what about the old "petrify --> transmute rock to mud ---> drop into the ocean and let the mud scatter"
wont be "dead" but how is it going to be brought back?

[Xuldarinar]

Not technically killing her/him but what about the old "petrify --> transmute rock to mud ---> drop into the ocean and let the mud scatter"
wont be "dead" but how is it going to be brought back?

The same way that water to wine cannot be used lethally.


Your technique wouldn't work as I am pretty sure it is specified it doesn't work on magical stone, and in fact only works on natural/unworked/uncut stone. I don't think we can count petrification as stone that is susceptible to this spell. It is one of those strategies that are regretfully ruled out.

[ManicOppressive]

Other solution: truenamers.
A GM might rule that breaking a Thinaun weapon release the soul but a gm will not necesarily think to what happens if the steel axe becomes a Thinaun axe then is used to kill the target and then stops being made of Thinaun because the utterance duration ends.

Putting the word "truenamer" in the same sentence as "solution" has got to be a capital crime of some sort.

As for OP, anything you do is either going to have to be BS (tricks that have been mentioned like zeroing CON) or just DM fiat for story's sake. The problem is, you're doing this without access to epic magic, and the gods DO have access to epic magic. In general, when magic declares something, other magic can't just un-declare it unless it's specifically worded. But when magic declares something, epic magic starts laughing uncontrollably, does something that looks like casting (but I can't tell because my Spellcraft ranks aren't high enough) for about twenty minutes, and then comes back and says "Oh yeah, it's undeclared, also I undeclared your limbs from your torso and your particles from all of your other particles. And your mother now has magic cancer."

That got a bit off track. The point is epic magic, with pretty much no exceptions, flat out overrides regular magic. Gods have epic magic. Therein is the problem.

Honestly, an epic spell to bring someone back with a set CON (who otherwise had 0) would in no way be notably powerful among epic spells. In fact, it would probably be viewed as pretty weak.

[Âmesang]

The same way that water to wine cannot be used lethally.

Your technique wouldn't work as I am pretty sure it is specified it doesn't work on magical stone, and in fact only works on natural/unworked/uncut stone. I don't think we can count petrification as stone that is susceptible to this spell. It is one of those strategies that are regretfully ruled out.
This reminds me of wanting to polymorph any object a vampire into a doll.

I shall christen him… Ragamuffin! :smallbiggrin:

[Selion]

Putting the word "truenamer" in the same sentence as "solution" has got to be a capital crime of some sort.

As for OP, anything you do is either going to have to be BS (tricks that have been mentioned like zeroing CON) or just DM fiat for story's sake. The problem is, you're doing this without access to epic magic, and the gods DO have access to epic magic. In general, when magic declares something, other magic can't just un-declare it unless it's specifically worded. But when magic declares something, epic magic starts laughing uncontrollably, does something that looks like casting (but I can't tell because my Spellcraft ranks aren't high enough) for about twenty minutes, and then comes back and says "Oh yeah, it's undeclared, also I undeclared your limbs from your torso and your particles from all of your other particles. And your mother now has magic cancer."

That got a bit off track. The point is epic magic, with pretty much no exceptions, flat out overrides regular magic. Gods have epic magic. Therein is the problem.

Honestly, an epic spell to bring someone back with a set CON (who otherwise had 0) would in no way be notably powerful among epic spells. In fact, it would probably be viewed as pretty weak.

To represent powers beyond level 20 im using the mythic adventures book, but the core of the question is the same. I think i just need to put an artifact on the line. It's not a fair solution, it's a deus ex machina, but i see not other options. MAybe i can mix the previous suggestions to design how the artifact works, sp it can be something that absorb the soul and consume it in some ritual.

[Inevitability]

The same way that water to wine cannot be used lethally.


Your technique wouldn't work as I am pretty sure it is specified it doesn't work on magical stone, and in fact only works on natural/unworked/uncut stone. I don't think we can count petrification as stone that is susceptible to this spell. It is one of those strategies that are regretfully ruled out.

Actually, Flesh to Stone is an instantaneous spell, so I'm pretty sure the stone isn't magical. Consider this: a dead magic zone, AMF, or Superb Dispelling all fail to affect the stone in any way. I don't think you can really consider such a stone 'magical'.

[Nessa Ellenesse]

take them alive, imprison them in smoky confinement. Store the bottle in a very secure place. Unless they are VERY favored by their diety you won't get any direct intervention. Also keep nondectection on the bottle

[Xuldarinar]

Actually, Flesh to Stone is an instantaneous spell, so I'm pretty sure the stone isn't magical. Consider this: a dead magic zone, AMF, or Superb Dispelling all fail to affect the stone in any way. I don't think you can really consider such a stone 'magical'.

You make a fair point. At the very least, it wouldn't be considered natural unworked stone (i think), but you are right. It would be hard to consider it magical. Influenced by magic, but not strictly magical stone.

[Psyren]

While you can indeed destroy or otherwise remove a foe beyond all hope of recovery, a sufficiently powerful deity could simply recreate an exact copy of that entity with all their memories and effects intact via Alter Reality. We're getting into philosophy here (specifically, the Ship of Theseus paradox (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ship_of_Theseus)), but the question then becomes - if an entity were created with the exact same personality, abilities and memories as the one you annihilated, including the added memory of you having annihilated the original, is there truly a difference that matters?

[bekeleven]

While you can indeed destroy or otherwise remove a foe beyond all hope of recovery, a sufficiently powerful deity could simply recreate an exact copy of that entity with all their memories and effects intact via Alter Reality. We're getting into philosophy here (specifically, the Ship of Theseus paradox (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ship_of_Theseus)), but the question then becomes - if an entity were created with the exact same personality, abilities and memories as the one you annihilated, including the added memory of you having annihilated the original, is there truly a difference that matters?

The PC isn't playing the copy. :smalltongue:

[Psyren]

The PC isn't playing the copy. :smalltongue:

The original appeared to be an NPC as well though (if I'm reading the OP right, that is.)

Basically I'm saying that there needs to be some kind of check on the deity's power (or limit on their devotion to the target) in order to make the death truly irreversible.

[bekeleven]

The original appeared to be an NPC as well though (if I'm reading the OP right, that is.)

Basically I'm saying that there needs to be some kind of check on the deity's power (or limit on their devotion to the target) in order to make the death truly irreversible.

Since I'm supposed to be the expert here, uh...


My first though is forcible template application.


All knowledge of the Vecna-blooded creature fades from the world. Its original name, its deeds before becoming Vecna-blooded, and so forth, disappear from memory. Only Vecna and the Vecna-blooded creature retain this knowledge.Any other ideas?

[Jowgen]

In combination with any approach that means to eternally disable rather than destroy, taking advantage of Sigil's no-deities-allowed feature might be handy. Like, trap the soul in a thinaun weapon, dominate some mook to take the weapon to to sigil and have that mook anger the Lady of Pain enough for her to take said mook out of the equation.

[Barstro]

The first step is to ensure that the deity is not omnipotent. Which sort of begs the question; why would the DM or PCs assume that the deity is omnipotent? After all, completely omnipotent entities do not require (or have reason to tolerate) others.

I base this thought and all others in this thread on the following "fact"; each of us is omnipotent in regards to whatever story we write. I, as the deity of my novel, cannot possibly have a character I want to live somehow die without my permission. Nobody here can change that. I lose that power when I allow another person access to my story. If I allow someone else the same authorship, then that person could kill off a character. If I allow random events to supersede my will (rolling a d20 to hit), then I have given up power. Once I allow for any sort of rule-0 to trump rule-1 (my will is absolute), then there is something to exploit. So long as I do not interact with anyone else, I am all powerful.

Assuming the deity is not omnipotent; in what way is it not omnipotent? Does it have an inherent failing? Is there a more powerful entity/group keeping it in check? Do its powers end at a certain location? Without knowing the bounds of the universe and the deity's role therein, all suggestions are mere speculation.

[atemu1234]

Find the highest overdeity ever.

Diplomance it into erasing them (no save against diplomacy).

Then Diplomance it into transferring all its divine ranks to you.

Then transfer all those divine ranks to various creatures around you, so even you can't.

[Selion]

The first step is to ensure that the deity is not omnipotent. Which sort of begs the question; why would the DM or PCs assume that the deity is omnipotent? After all, completely omnipotent entities do not require (or have reason to tolerate) others.

I base this thought and all others in this thread on the following "fact"; each of us is omnipotent in regards to whatever story we write. I, as the deity of my novel, cannot possibly have a character I want to live somehow die without my permission. Nobody here can change that. I lose that power when I allow another person access to my story. If I allow someone else the same authorship, then that person could kill off a character. If I allow random events to supersede my will (rolling a d20 to hit), then I have given up power. Once I allow for any sort of rule-0 to trump rule-1 (my will is absolute), then there is something to exploit. So long as I do not interact with anyone else, I am all powerful.

Assuming the deity is not omnipotent; in what way is it not omnipotent? Does it have an inherent failing? Is there a more powerful entity/group keeping it in check? Do its powers end at a certain location? Without knowing the bounds of the universe and the deity's role therein, all suggestions are mere speculation.

This argument suggests me thet maybe a solution may be found roleplaying the god. Deities' power are nigh boundeless, but in a pantheon some implicit bounds must be forced to create balance between many nigh boundless powers. The god in question is a good deity; suppose that his dear one's soul has been fed to power a ritual outside his portfolio, undo the ritual would be an act of selfishness that may break the balance between divine powers, this god cannot take this decision becaouse he is good beyond mortal boundaries, but the same decision would create the state of despair that will trigger further events

[Barstro]

The god in question is a good deity; suppose that his dear one's soul has been fed to power a ritual outside his portfolio, undo the ritual would be an act of selfishness that may break the balance between divine powers, this god cannot take this decision becaouse he is good beyond mortal boundaries, but the same decision would create the state of despair that will trigger further events

Now we are getting somewhere. Likewise, if he were lawful (or the rest of the pantheon would retaliate) he could be bound by whatever fate befalls the mortal or face worse consequences.