Pre-Dragon Disciple class decisions

[Silver Raven]

So I want to play a dragon disciple from pathfinder. but this is my 1st time playing something other than a single class tank.

No 3rd party books no Templates.

The Idea for this character, is that she is a combination of Shyvana from League of Legends, Mink from Dragon-Half, and Lina Inverse from Slayers. Now I've created a race similar too a Nagaji. But with More dragon like qualities like a prehensile tail, vestigial wings and a breath weapon.

How I want her to fight is sort of like a switch hitter, I.E. she can fight up close or at a distance with spells if she needs to. And I like the idea of her turning into a dragon with "Form of Dragon" for thematic reasons.

But as for what class or classes I should take before going into DD that's something I'm not entirely sure on. So what class or classes should I take before going into DD for this build?

[Troacctid]

Well, Dragon Disciples don't turn into dragons, and they generally only get 1st level spells at a minimal caster level, so I'm not sure you've got the right class for a character who wants to be able to turn into a dragon and switch-hit between melee and spellcasting. Dragon Disciple is more a class for melee brawlers who want stat boosts, wings, and blindsense.

[SaintRidley]

Pretend Dragon Disciple doesn't exist, because it's utterly worthless.

Play a Druid and take the Draconic Wildshape feat from the Draconomicon when you qualify.

[Jack_Simth]

Well, Dragon Disciples don't turn into dragons, and they generally only get 1st level spells at a minimal caster level, so I'm not sure you've got the right class for a character who wants to be able to turn into a dragon and switch-hit between melee and spellcasting. Dragon Disciple is more a class for melee brawlers who want stat boosts, wings, and blindsense.
Pretty much this. One of the more common entries to Dragon Disciple is a bardbarian - Bard-1/Barbarian-4/Dragon Disciple-X.

...

Well, assuming 3.5. If you're playing Pathfinder, on the other hand... which is probably where you're going with this... some mix of Sorcerer and Barbarian will do the job... or maybe just an Arcanus, maybe a Magus.

[MisterKaws]

You'd be better off either doing a dragon-themed gish or a dragonheart mage with the dragonshape and dragon aspect spell lines.

[Apricot]

If the draconic features are what interest you, maybe just taking the half-dragon template would be enough? It gives you what Dragon Disciple does, except you only need to devote three "levels" to it rather than ten. Then you could have your class levels be Sorcerer or Barbarian or whatever else gives you what you want in terms of fighting. However, you won't have wings unless you're a Large race, so that might be an issue. You might be able to houserule that away in exchange for health or ability points or skills or something, though.

[DrMotives]

If the draconic features are what interest you, maybe just taking the half-dragon template would be enough? It gives you what Dragon Disciple does, except you only need to devote three "levels" to it rather than ten. Then you could have your class levels be Sorcerer or Barbarian or whatever else gives you what you want in terms of fighting. However, you won't have wings unless you're a Large race, so that might be an issue. You might be able to houserule that away in exchange for health or ability points or skills or something, though.

You could do that and make your casting class DFA. The breath weapons are both gishy and versatile, and you could have wing-powered flight through an invocation at class level 6.

[darksolitaire]

Note that you can Alter Self into a dragon if you have appropriate sub type. Arguably, Dragonblooded does the trick. For everyone else, there's polymorph.


Pretend Dragon Disciple doesn't exist, because it's utterly worthless.

Play a Druid and take the Draconic Wildshape feat from the Draconomicon when you qualify.

It's not utterly worthless for melee fighters. In absence of subsystems like ToB. Or when they don't have access to all those fancy, obscure splat books. Blindsense and flight are pretty good.

But yeah, Druid is better. Too bad Dragon Wildshape comes online at level 12.

[Apricot]

Dragon Disciple seems like it would be reasonable if it were over five levels, not ten. It just seems like too much to sacrifice half of your character's progression for a template, even at the lowest levels of optimization and even if it's a strong template.

[Troacctid]

Dragon Disciple seems like it would be reasonable if it were over five levels, not ten. It just seems like too much to sacrifice half of your character's progression for a template, even at the lowest levels of optimization and even if it's a strong template.

If you're running off a Fighter, Monk, or Barbarian base, it compares pretty favorably against single-classing.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Before we start suggesting crazy stuff: What books are available, and what's your tolerance level for weird multiclass builds?

[ericgrau]

Generally you enter with either 1-4 levels of bard or 1 level of sorcerer, plus a melee class.

They aren't bad at melee. They are the best melee prestige class in the core 3 books. They are bad at melee to a forum optimizer. They are bad at mixing melee and casting. For that you normally go with eldritch knight or similar. But there is a way with dragon disciple in case you don't mind being 80% melee and 20% casting. Use staffs and wands to get your spells. Pick spells that don't have a saving throw so that your charisma doesn't need to be too high and you can focus on strength and con. Use staffs for your main spells. Use wands for spells that you can spam often that aren't too dependent on save DC or caster level, such as invisibility.

If you want more of a 50:50 mix then try eldritch knight or a similar prestige class instead (one that advances casting) and do the dragon stuff with your race and sorcerer-ness. There are some dragon themed sorcerer spells out there in dragon books such as Races of the Dragon.

[torrasque666]

I think, based on the reference to the Nagaji, this may be a pathfinder game. And the DD from pathfinder does get Form of the Dragon I and later Form of the Dragon II, which will allow for a transformation into a dragon. So that, combined with the Nagaji reference, kinda implies the pathfinder one.

[Troacctid]

If you want more of a 50:50 mix then try eldritch knight instead and do the dragon stuff with your race and sorcerer-ness. There are some dragon themed sorcerer spells out there in dragon books such as Races of the Dragon.

Eldritch Knight is really more of a 90/10 mix favoring casting. All those Wizard levels do a good job nerfing your swordplay.

[ericgrau]

Eldritch Knight is really more of a 90/10 mix favoring casting. All those Wizard levels do a good job nerfing your swordplay.
It's only 3 BAB. Unless your baseline is ToB or some such?

[Bronk]

The Idea for this character, is that she is a combination of Shyvana from League, Mink from Dragon-Half, and Lina Inverse from Slayers. Now I've created a race similar too a Nagaji. But with More dragon like qualities like a prehensile tail, vestigial wings and a breath weapon.

How I want her to fight is sort of like a switch hitter, I.E. she can fight up close or at a distance with spells if she needs to. And I like the idea of her turning into a dragon for thematic reasons.


Well, I don't know who Shyvana is, but I do like Mink and Lina! Mink is sort of an oblivious bruiser, and Lina is a greedy super powerful, well connected, magic using adventurer who has access to high level magics and epic magics.

If you wanted to stick to your half dragon idea, I'd agree that it would be easier to take the template, and put it on a sorcerer, or maybe a battle sorcerer if you can convince your DM that it counts as a sorcerer. You could take a level in lion totem barbarian to get pounce, but if you'd rather stay back until the enemies come to you it isn't really necessary.

On the other hand, have you considered playing as a dragon? The LA can be steep, but there are a few out there with minimal racial hit dice and LA, like the mercury dragon, that you can play. Otherwise, there are a number of dragons that get alternate form, like Silver and Gold, that you could play and just hang out as a human/elf/whatever and turn back into a dragon when necessary.

[Apricot]

If you're running off a Fighter, Monk, or Barbarian base, it compares pretty favorably against single-classing.

Well, that's a pretty big if, and don't you need to multiclass anyway for the entry requirements? I mean, if you're going for one of those three, at least. And the half-dragon template's in core anyway, so I'm not sure there's any strong reason for sacrificing all those class levels. Maybe a dip would be acceptable?

[ericgrau]

Well, that's a pretty big if, and don't you need to multiclass anyway for the entry requirements? I mean, if you're going for one of those three, at least. And the half-dragon template's in core anyway, so I'm not sure there's any strong reason for sacrificing all those class levels. Maybe a dip would be acceptable?

Because in core the saves and d12 HD from eating PrC levels are better than biting 3 LA. Early on the BAB is better too. Outside of core those stats aren't as good as fancy class features but then outside of core 3 LA is also pretty painful compared to 3 splatbook class levels. IIRC I've run the stats both ways in core and the PrC was better than the template. Even counting benefits from more rage or bonus feats or etc.

Levels 4 and 7 are pretty good stopping points for a dip though in case the OP doesn't want/need the benefits of going all the way.

[Silver Raven]

Before we start suggesting crazy stuff: What books are available, and what's your tolerance level for weird multiclass builds?

Well it's for Pathfinder and all books except 3rd party are allowed. I was thinking of using the form of dragon spell, but that might just be for sorcerers only. Again I've only played tanks so far, so I don't know that much on spell caster classes.

And My DM said NO TEMPLATES!!! yes he did yell. so that's why I built a race.

[ZamielVanWeber]

Well it's for Pathfinder and all books except 3rd party are excepted.
Just to be clear: are 3rd party books in or no? I think not, but you said they were the only ones allowed.

[ericgrau]

Well it's for Pathfinder and all books except 3rd party are excepted. I was thinking of using the form of dragon spell, but that might just be for sorcerers only. Again I've only played tanks so far, so I don't know that much on spell caster classes.

That makes a big difference, because dragon disciples in pathfinder get more spells. Still not good enough to give you many decent combat spells so you still want staffs, but enough to buff yourself a bit. Some spells like web, sleet storm, other crowd control and haste also remain good even when your casting is behind and those make ok combat spells.

[Apricot]

Because in core the saves and d12 HD from eating PrC levels are better than biting 3 LA. Early on the BAB is better too. Outside of core those stats aren't as good as fancy class features but then outside of core 3 LA is also pretty painful compared to 3 splatbook class levels. IIRC I've run the stats both ways in core and the PrC was better than the template. Even counting benefits from more rage or bonus feats or etc.

Levels 4 and 7 are pretty good stopping points for a dip though in case the OP doesn't want/need the benefits of going all the way.

Hmm, I see. I hadn't considered the saves and BAB as much. So, essentially, it's better for dip-only classes, right? Except it might still be stronger to take low amounts of levels in other classes and then take a PrC, or something like that. But the original assumption was that it was going to be single class, so that all makes sense.

[ericgrau]

Hmm, I see. I hadn't considered the saves and BAB as much. So, essentially, it's better for dip-only classes, right? Except it might still be stronger to take low amounts of levels in other classes and then take a PrC, or something like that. But the original assumption was that it was going to be single class, so that all makes sense.

I should say 10 is a good stopping point too, at least in core. In core or similar optimization levels the feats and class features aren't any better than decent stats. In higher optimization builds you probably want more feats or class features with special effects rather than numbers..

Somewhat moot though because the OP is using the Pathfinder DD which is quite a bit nicer. Because of the lost caster levels he still needs to avoid the trap of relying on casting too much, but he can still do something like a 2/3-1/3 focus and select the combat spells that aren't heavily reliant on level such as many of the battlefield control spells.

[Silver Raven]

Just to be clear: are 3rd party books in or no? I think not, but you said they were the only ones allowed.

Lol sorry no 3rd party books are allowed

[Silver Raven]

Here are the race stats for the character just in case anyone wants to ask.
Race Name: Dragonkin
Race Speed: Normal
Race Size: Medium
Race Starting points: Standard
Race Stats: +2 Strength, +2 Charisma, -2 Int
Racial Trait Feat: Standard Bonus Feat
Racial Trait Movement: Vestigial Wings
Racial Trait Offense: Breath Weapon
Racial Trait Defense: Celestial Resistance
Racial Trait Other: Prehensile Tail

I also edited first post for a clearer on my suggestion

[J-H]

Duskblades are spontaneous casters, aren't they? I would say Duskblade/DD focused on making super-powered standard attacks (since you have to hit Duskblade 13 to channel on a full attack).

[Grod_The_Giant]

Pathfinder Dragon Disciple is fine. I'd enter via Magus or Skald, I think.

[Silver Raven]

Pathfinder Dragon Disciple is fine. I'd enter via Magus or Skald, I think.

So do I still get form of dragon? Or should I get a rod or a staff for that. I know it might not be optimal but I had a sort of a story bit where she doesn't have complete control of her draconic powers at the start but gets more control later.

[Nifft]

Can Dragon Disciple bonus spells be allocated to non-Sorcerer class slots?

In 3.5e, I think they could be, so a Paladin 9 / Sorc 1 / Dragon Disciple 10 might have quite a few level 2 Paladin slots.

EDIT: Hehe, or maybe go for X 5 / Trapsmith 5 / Dragon Disciple 10.

[Silver Raven]

I think I'll probably go either Bloodrager or Arcane Duelist into DD. But I'm wondering if I can get claws as a Arcane Duelist.

[Elxir_Breauer]

You could see about possibly porting feats and classes from 3.5 into PF, though with the restriction against 3rd party books that may be a moot option. If you can, there's teh Draconic Heritage line of feats from Dragon Magic and Races of the Dragon (both are 3.5 splat books from WotC). Draconic Heritage is fairly meh on its own, but some of the options it opens up are pretty good. Also in Dragon Magic is the Dragontouched feat which gives you +1 HP, +1 Racial bonus to Listen and Spot (translates to +1 Perception, likely restricted to reactionary checks only), gives the Dragonblood subtype (treated as a Dragon as well as your base race for targeting and racial restricions), and lets you count as a Sorceror of your level for taking Draconic Heritage feats. One such feat is the Arcane Claws feat, that gives you a Claw attack (1d4+Str at Medium) as a free action after casting an Arcane spell, not the worst option for a gishy caster.

[Psyren]

I think I'll probably go either Bloodrager or Arcane Duelist into DD. But I'm wondering if I can get claws as a Arcane Duelist.

It will require a wink-nudge from your GM, but the Eldritch Heritage feat chain (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/greater-eldritch-heritage) gives you access to a sorcerer bloodline, which DD can arguably advance if you choose Draconic, since you're treated as a sorcerer wrt that bloodline.

[Mr Adventurer]

Orc Orc Paragon 3/Warblade 1/Duskblade 1

[Molosse]

So I want to play a dragon disciple from pathfinder. but this is my 1st time playing something other than a single class tank.

No 3rd party books no Templates.

The Idea for this character, is that she is a combination of Shyvana from League of Legends, Mink from Dragon-Half, and Lina Inverse from Slayers. Now I've created a race similar too a Nagaji. But with More dragon like qualities like a prehensile tail, vestigial wings and a breath weapon.

How I want her to fight is sort of like a switch hitter, I.E. she can fight up close or at a distance with spells if she needs to. And I like the idea of her turning into a dragon with "Form of Dragon" for thematic reasons.

But as for what class or classes I should take before going into DD that's something I'm not entirely sure on. So what class or classes should I take before going into DD for this build?

Well. Since this is Pathfinder, I'd recommend a Primalist Bloodrager with the Draconic Bloodline. It's been confirmed that DD advances the Bloodrager Bloodline powers so rock on with that and honestly, a Bloodrager forms a much better chasis for a DD wanting to use both spells and melee combat, what with the better BaB, Hp and Bloodrage (Su).