AMFs, Dimensional Anchor, and Dismissal or how I learned to stop worrying and...

[Goladar]

Get the heck out of the Abyss!!!

Hi Everybody! First time poster, long time lurker.

So I'm trapped in the personal demesne of a certain spidery goddess and I need to find a way home. My DM tells me that teleportation into and out of this plane is strictly controlled(read:impossible). I have a class feature that allows me to exclude myself from the effect of spells I cast. If I were to cast AMF, excluding myself from it's effects, Could I then cast dismissal and force myself back to the Material Plane?

Thanks for you help,
GE

[The Glyphstone]

I don't see why. If you are in the AMF, you cannot dimensional travel out of the Demonweb Pits. If you aren't in the AMF (because you have excluded yourself from its effects), then the regular planar traits still apply and you cannot dimensional travel out of the Demonweb Pits. There's no grey area where you are selectively affected by/not affected by the spell or plane.

Find a portal out if you really need to leave.

[GilesTheCleric]

If you're in the Demonweb Pits adventure, I think the idea is that you're not allowed to leave by fiat. If you really want to leave and your GM is okay with that, you can do some chicanery with a bag of holding and a portable hole and eject yourself into the astral. If you've got contingency and true res, then you might be able to word it such that you're resurrected away from your corpse. If you have the means (Magic Jar?) then you could hop a ride on someone else's pre-approved ticket.

I should also add that I'm a fan of your thread title. I'll let you guess why.

[Goladar]

So if I'm excluded from the effects of the AMF, I'm subject to the prevailing traits of the plane? So if I did this on the material plane, another caster could use magic on me while I'm in the AMF? That doesn't make sense. I'd think that it would only allow me to cast while in the field, not let any effect through the AMF as long as it was affecting me.


If you're in the Demonweb Pits adventure, I think the idea is that you're not allowed to leave by fiat
-Gilesthecleric

FEH, where's the fun in that?

[MisterKaws]

The only spell that'd do the trick is Planar Bubble from PlH, a lvl 7 abjuration. It flat out replaces every single aspect of the current plane with those of your native plane on a 10ft radius. With this spell, you are simply excluded from the demonweb's anchor effect, so you'd just have to plane shift out of it, and the planar bubble follows, just because it's that awesome.

Planar Bubble's older sibling, the Planar Shepherd's version, can also do it, as long as his plane doesn't have the same teleporting restriction(unless he has a free pass in that one's).

[Goladar]

So an AMF wont stop the No Teleportation effect?

[Zanos]

So an AMF wont stop the No Teleportation effect?
As I recall, it's not a persistent magical effect, but rather a trait of the plane itself. AMF won't suppress planar traits.

If the whole plane was dimensionally locked with magic or something, it should work.

[Goladar]

As I recall, it's not a persistent magical effect, but rather a trait of the plane itself. AMF won't suppress planar traits.

If the whole plane was dimensionally locked with magic or something, it should work.

Alright, I'm going to roll a knowledge check and we'll see what type of effect my DM says it is. Thanks for the help everyone!

GE

[MisterKaws]

Alright, I'm going to roll a knowledge check and we'll see what type of effect my DM says it is. Thanks for the help everyone!

GE

At least you've learned a lesson: never go plane traveling without means to nullify a plane's traits.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

An acorn of far travel should do it, so long as you already have the spell active prior to entering the Demonweb Pits. You count as though you're under the tree you cast the spell from, meaning you count as being on the plane that the tree is on. If you can contact someone outside of the Demonweb Pits to create an acorn of far travel and Plane Shift to your location with a bag of holding or a portable hole, and then Plane Shift out again, that would let you escape...

...assuming you can actually enter a portable hole or bag of holding. It's a nondimensional space, rather than a different plane. It might not count.

[MisterKaws]

An acorn of far travel should do it, so long as you already have the spell active prior to entering the Demonweb Pits. You count as though you're under the tree you cast the spell from, meaning you count as being on the plane that the tree is on. If you can contact someone outside of the Demonweb Pits to create an acorn of far travel and Plane Shift to your location with a bag of holding or a portable hole, and then Plane Shift out again, that would let you escape...

...assuming you can actually enter a portable hole or bag of holding. It's a nondimensional space, rather than a different plane. It might not count.

You can enter portable holes just fine, there are even rules for that in its description... and I think it would actually count as being out of the demonwebs if you were to enter it and bail the hell out of that thing.

[The Glyphstone]

So if I'm excluded from the effects of the AMF, I'm subject to the prevailing traits of the plane? So if I did this on the material plane, another caster could use magic on me while I'm in the AMF? That doesn't make sense. I'd think that it would only allow me to cast while in the field, not let any effect through the AMF as long as it was affecting me.



Correct. You are excluding yourself from the effects of the AMF. One of the effects of the AMF is that you cannot be targeted by or affected by magic. Another effect is that you cannot cast magic in the AMF. If you are going to exclude yourself from the AMF, you must exclude yourself from all of its effects, you cannot pick and choose which parts of the spell you ignore.

I agree it's kind of lame, but AMF is just a lame spell in general, starting with how it has to be centered on the caster.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Correct. You are excluding yourself from the effects of the AMF. One of the effects of the AMF is that you cannot be targeted by or affected by magic. Another effect is that you cannot cast magic in the AMF. If you are going to exclude yourself from the AMF, you must exclude yourself from all of its effects, you cannot pick and choose which parts of the spell you ignore.

I agree it's kind of lame, but AMF is just a lame spell in general, starting with how it has to be centered on the caster.There's always Initiate of Mystra.

[MisterKaws]

Correct. You are excluding yourself from the effects of the AMF. One of the effects of the AMF is that you cannot be targeted by or affected by magic. Another effect is that you cannot cast magic in the AMF. If you are going to exclude yourself from the AMF, you must exclude yourself from all of its effects, you cannot pick and choose which parts of the spell you ignore.

I agree it's kind of lame, but AMF is just a lame spell in general, starting with how it has to be centered on the caster.

Though casting THROUGH an AMF is still impossible, so as long as you're on its center, you still can't throw spells that require line of effect, because AMF interrupts that, and the reverse is also true.

[Xervous]

There's always Initiate of Mystra.

I'm picturing you uttering this with the most felonious of grins much the same as if you were naming Incantatrix, all the while scenes of players being mercilessly assailed by books and DM's campaigns smouldering in ruins fill the background.

[Goladar]

Correct. You are excluding yourself from the effects of the AMF. One of the effects of the AMF is that you cannot be targeted by or affected by magic. Another effect is that you cannot cast magic in the AMF. If you are going to exclude yourself from the AMF, you must exclude yourself from all of its effects, you cannot pick and choose which parts of the spell you ignore.

I agree it's kind of lame, but AMF is just a lame spell in general, starting with how it has to be centered on the caster.

Huh, when I think about it I don't see it that way. [My thinking]The effect of the AMF isn't that YOU can't be targeted by magic, it's that magic doesn't work inside of it. So when I'm excluded from the effect, my magic works, while spells cast by others don't. [/My thinking]

Is there some source that gives clarification on this subject?

[Psyren]

Huh, when I think about it I don't see it that way. [My thinking]The effect of the AMF isn't that YOU can't be targeted by magic, it's that magic doesn't work inside of it. So when I'm excluded from the effect, my magic works, while spells cast by others don't. [/My thinking]

Is there some source that gives clarification on this subject?

No, there's been lots of debates on this subject but no official clarifications. If you exclude yourself from an AMF, some argue that it works as you describe, while others argue it just creates a "donut" whereby a excluding yourself from the bad parts of the AMF also excludes you from the good parts and an enemy spell (particularly an area spell) can still act on you, e.g. a lightning bolt will fly into the AMF and get suppressed, but reactivate in your square and fry you like the AMF wasn't even there. Your GM has to decide on one interpretation or the other.

But regardless of which ruling you get, it's irrelevant to your situation anyway - your problem is coming from a planar trait, which is not "magic" in the game sense of the term. Some things in this game could be considered "magic" in our world, but AMF doesn't care about them because they are not spells, spell-like abilities, supernatural abilities or the effects of magic items. A fire elemental in an AMF can still roast you, an air elemental in an AMF can still fly, and a golem or zombie in an AMF can still walk towards you and clobber you, for example.

Planar traits work the same way; they impose various rules on you like a spell does but AMF won't stop them. If a trait says "you can't simply plane shift in or out of here" - which, incidentally, most deity sanctums do - then an AMF won't do anything to suppress that trait.

[ksbsnowowl]

Artifacts and deities are unaffected by mortal magic such as this.

Although I doubt I am your DM, I am currently running Expedition to the Demonweb Pits; you will not convince your DM that this will work, primarily because it doesn't. You are in a deity's domain, and your mortal magic will not stop her edicts:


Within the Demonweb ... teleportation is ... blocked by Lolth’s divine will.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Couldn't you just hit your party with Dismissal? It's not a Teleportation effect, after all.

[Zanos]

Although I doubt I am your DM, I am currently running Expedition to the Demonweb Pits; you will not convince your DM that this will work, primarily because it doesn't. You are in a deity's domain, and your mortal magic will not stop her edicts:
Does it only block [Teleportation] effects? That seems pretty ironclad(since it isn't magic anyway), but there are ways to leave a plane without teleporting. Shadow walk comes to mind, you can cast it an hop right off onto the material.

[Goladar]

Although I doubt I am your DM, I am currently running Expedition to the Demonweb Pits; you will not convince your DM that this will work, primarily because it doesn't. You are in a deity's domain, and your mortal magic will not stop her edicts


Within the Demonweb ... teleportation is ... blocked by Lolth’s divine will.


:

Damnation!


No, there's been lots of debates on this subject but no official clarifications. If you exclude yourself from an AMF, some argue that it works as you describe, while others argue it just creates a "donut" whereby a excluding yourself from the bad parts of the AMF also excludes you from the good parts and an enemy spell (particularly an area spell) can still act on you, e.g. a lightning bolt will fly into the AMF and get suppressed, but reactivate in your square and fry you like the AMF wasn't even there. Your GM has to decide on one interpretation or the other.

But regardless of which ruling you get, it's irrelevant to your situation anyway - your problem is coming from a planar trait, which is not "magic" in the game sense of the term. Some things in this game could be considered "magic" in our world, but AMF doesn't care about them because they are not spells, spell-like abilities, supernatural abilities or the effects of magic items. A fire elemental in an AMF can still roast you, an air elemental in an AMF can still fly, and a golem or zombie in an AMF can still walk towards you and clobber you, for example.

Planar traits work the same way; they impose various rules on you like a spell does but AMF won't stop them. If a trait says "you can't simply plane shift in or out of here" - which, incidentally, most deity sanctums do - then an AMF won't do anything to suppress that trait.

Double Damnation!!!


Couldn't you just hit your party with Dismissal? It's not a Teleportation effect, after all.

That was my first idea. But will my DM rule it blocked by Lolth's will or say it's a teleportation effect?

[Zanos]

But will my DM rule it blocked by Lolth's will or say it's a teleportation effect?
I can't tell you what your DM will say, but the point of the Demonweb Pits is that they are difficult to escape. It is unlikely that he will allow a quick and easy solution, since the point of the place is to escape. I would imagine he has some story based method planned out unless he wants the entire campaign to take place there.

If you really don't want to play an adventure there, you might want to have an OOC chat with him about it.

[ksbsnowowl]

Shadow walk comes to mind, you can cast it an hop right off onto the material.The Plane of Shadow doesn't connect to anything but the Material Plane. Neither does the Ethereal Plane. He is on the 66th layer of the Abyss; the Astral is the only transitive plane he can access.

Dismissal and Banishment (as well as Blasphemy* if cast by a native of the Abyss) would work to send him back to his home plane.

*Careful of that, as Blasphemy would be at double caster level in the Demonweb... which means it has a high chance of killing the targets.

[Zanos]

The Plane of Shadow doesn't connect to anything but the Material Plane. Neither does the Ethereal Plane. He is on the 66th layer of the Abyss; the Astral is the only transitive plane he can access.
Shadow Walk doesn't care. The only requirement to cast the spell is that you be in an area of shadowy illumination. Then: "You and any creature you touch are then transported along a coiling path of shadowstuff to the edge of the Material Plane where it borders the Plane of Shadow."

There are limits to what other planes you can travel to with Shadow Walk, but there are no limits on where you can cast it from other than shadowy illumination.

[Psyren]

Couldn't you just hit your party with Dismissal? It's not a Teleportation effect, after all.



That was my first idea. But will my DM rule it blocked by Lolth's will or say it's a teleportation effect?

It seems to me that if you could just self-dismiss your way out of the Abyss or Hell they wouldn't be nearly as dangerous to visit. I don't know if anything in that module explicitly prevents it though beyond fiat.

EDIT:


Shadow Walk doesn't care. The only requirement to cast the spell is that you be in an area of shadowy illumination. Then: "You and any creature you touch are then transported along a coiling path of shadowstuff to the edge of the Material Plane where it borders the Plane of Shadow."

There are limits to what other planes you can travel to with Shadow Walk, but there are no limits on where you can cast it from other than shadowy illumination.

In core-only this is true, but Manual of the Planes does specify that Shadow Walk will only function on an outer plane that is coexistent or coterminous with the Plane of Shadow. In 3.5's default cosmology (Great Wheel), the Abyss and Plane of Shadow are not connected in this way, so even if shadows exist on the Abyss they can't actually be used to travel magically like that.

[Goladar]

I can't tell you what your DM will say, but the point of the Demonweb Pits is that they are difficult to escape. It is unlikely that he will allow a quick and easy solution, since the point of the place is to escape. I would imagine he has some story based method planned out unless he wants the entire campaign to take place there.

If you really don't want to play an adventure there, you might want to have an OOC chat with him about it.

Sorry, that was a rhetorical question. I know you wouldn't know. Thank you for all the information. Also, it's just me here in the Pits. I got separated from my group jumping in front of a spell.

ETA:It's not that I don't want to be there, But my character REALLY doesn't want to be there, so he's going to try everything within his power to leave.

[Zanos]

Sorry, that was a rhetorical question. I know you wouldn't know. Thank you for all the information. Also, it's just me here in the Pits. I got separated from my group jumping in front of a spell.

ETA:It's not that I don't want to be there, But my character REALLY doesn't want to be there, so he's going to try everything within his power to leave.
Yeah, I doubt many people would want to be there IC. Tis a silly place.

I'd ask your DM if he'd even allow a clever solution. Based on the wording posted here there are ways around it, since not every method of leaving a plane is considered teleportation. The other scenarios are that he has planned a solo adventure for you to escape, or that your character is stuck in a plane he can't leave, in which case I guess you'd need a new character.

[MisterKaws]

Sorry, that was a rhetorical question. I know you wouldn't know. Thank you for all the information. Also, it's just me here in the Pits. I got separated from my group jumping in front of a spell.

ETA:It's not that I don't want to be there, But my character REALLY doesn't want to be there, so he's going to try everything within his power to leave.

Oops, that's bad.

I figure you probably don't have anything like Superior Invisibility, so do you at least have something that can keep you out of those creepy spider people's sight?

[ksbsnowowl]

Without giving away too much info, since the OP is playing in some sort of adventure in the Demonweb, there are many ways out of the Demonweb. You just have to find them and know how to activate them. Knowledge (the Planes) and (Religion) would be helpful in that regard, as would search skills.

If the OP has the ability to cast Antimagic Field, he is more than powerful enough to find his way out (assuming he's not locked in a guarded cell, with no spell components, etc).

[Goladar]

Oops, that's bad.

I figure you probably don't have anything like Superior Invisibility, so do you at least have something that can keep you out of those creepy spider people's sight?

Just Invisibility and Greater Invisibility.



Without giving away too much info, since the OP is playing in some sort of adventure in the Demonweb, there are many ways out of the Demonweb. You just have to find them and know how to activate them. Knowledge (the Planes) and (Religion) would be helpful in that regard, as would search skills.

If the OP has the ability to cast Antimagic Field, he is more than powerful enough to find his way out (assuming he's not locked in a guarded cell, with no spell components, etc).

I have all my gear and I'm free. I was brought here on accident. Question, Does Lolth know I'm here?

[Anthrowhale]

No, there's been lots of debates on this subject but no official clarifications. If you exclude yourself from an AMF...

Is there debate if you define 'exclude' carefully?

Exclude like an archmage mastery of shaping => you are fully subject to spells and magic as normal. Magical effects in adjacent spaces are however suppressed.

Exclude like selective spell => no spells work within the AMF since AMF directly effects spells and Selective[you] does nothing to alter this. Selective[you] AMF followed by Dismissal on yourself will allow you to cast Dismissal (because of Selective[you]), but Dismissal will be suppressed by AMF since AMF suppresses all spells.

[Psyren]

Is there debate if you define 'exclude' carefully?

Exclude like an archmage mastery of shaping => you are fully subject to spells and magic as normal. Magical effects in adjacent spaces are however suppressed.

Exclude like selective spell => no spells work within the AMF since AMF directly effects spells and Selective[you] does nothing to alter this. Selective[you] AMF followed by Dismissal on yourself will allow you to cast Dismissal (because of Selective[you]), but Dismissal will be suppressed by AMF since AMF suppresses all spells.

There's no debate (at least, not that I've seen) on "square-excludes" like Mastery of Shaping. It's the "I exclude myself" ones like Selective Spell that continue to cause arguments.

I'm not trying (or going) to resurrect that argument here, I'm just pointing out that it exists.

[Anthrowhale]

I'm just pointing out that it exists.

I thought so as well at one time, but no one argued otherwise when I made a thread about it (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?411392-Selective-Spell-Antimagic-Field-RAW).

[ZamielVanWeber]

{QUOTE=Goladar;20236462]I have all my gear and I'm free. I was brought here on accident. Question, Does Lolth know I'm here?[/QUOTE]

Probably not yet, but the moment you tangle with one of the spidery creatures that lives there she will know. Her caring is another matter.

[Psyren]

I thought so as well at one time, but no one argued otherwise when I made a thread about it (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?411392-Selective-Spell-Antimagic-Field-RAW).

I can't speak for anyone else, but from my own perspective arguing about it is futile. How your GM says it works is what ultimately matters.


Probably not yet, but the moment you tangle with one of the spidery creatures that lives there she will know. Her caring is another matter.

Isn't her layer a giant web? I would think just moving would be enough for her to detect you (though as you noted, noticing and caring are two different things.)

And that's before we get into the utter hax that are Divine Salient Abilities.

[ZamielVanWeber]

Isn't her layer a giant web? I would think just moving would be enough for her to detect you (though as you noted, noticing and caring are two different things.)

And that's before we get into the utter hax that are Divine Salient Abilities.

Webs can only communicate information so far, although the demons that dwell in the pit will almost certainly take notice quickly since there are so many (and they are highly likely to care).

[ksbsnowowl]

Isn't her layer a giant web? I would think just moving would be enough for her to detect you

There are many beings present in and living in the web. At best you would detect as one of many* beings moving about.

* The OP shouldn't look here:
Several hundred, just in the areas intimately described in EttDwP. It mentions several other areas that would have just as many more.

[Goladar]

DM says AMF is a no-go. The Dimensional Lock effect is a part of the reality of that plane.

My DM also avoided answering the clever escape route question but said that portable holes don't function normally in the Demonweb.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

DM says AMF is a no-go. The Dimensional Lock effect is a part of the reality of that plane.

My DM also avoided answering the clever escape route question but said that portable holes don't function normally in the Demonweb.If it's just a dimension lock, hit yourself with dismissal. D.L. doesn't affect it in any way.

[Psyren]

If it's just a dimension lock, hit yourself with dismissal. D.L. doesn't affect it in any way.

I doubt the DM literally meant Dimension Lock, or that "I dismiss myself from the campaign" will work. Certainly it's something the PC could try in-character, but only to demonstrate that it wouldn't work.

[Goladar]

Psyrens got it. It's not actually Dimensional Lock, it's just a similar effect.

[tiercel]

At the meta level, if the point of the adventure is to RP your way out of the Abyss, chances are any attempt to defeat the adventure with "I cast X" will be met with "nope."

In game, if you are on an actual goddess' personal layer of the Abyss, the DM doesn't need arbitrary fiat to say no -- any spell you want to cast as a "get out of Abyss free" card can simply be excluded by divine will. --Yes, that one, too.

If that's the case, a Knowledge (religion and/or the planes) check should reveal if you are up against pure divine will. If so, you need to find a door of some kind, not worry about blowing open an escape hatch.

[Aleolus]

I have all my gear and I'm free. I was brought here on accident. Question, Does Lolth know I'm here?

Does she know, almost certainly, yes. If for no other reason, then because all deities are automatically aware of everything that happens with relation to their portfolios, and the entirety of the Demonweb Pits are spiderwebs, which strongly associate with spiders, which are in Lolths portfolio. A better question would be, does she care? Which can easily be answered with "Does she have reason to care?"

[Goladar]

Does she know, almost certainly, yes. If for no other reason, then because all deities are automatically aware of everything that happens with relation to their portfolios, and the entirety of the Demonweb Pits are spiderwebs, which strongly associate with spiders, which are in Lolths portfolio. A better question would be, does she care? Which can easily be answered with "Does she have reason to care?"

I don't know if she'd know, But I'm the tool of another deity who is working directly against a plot Lolth is involved in.

[Psyren]

I don't know if she'd know, But I'm the tool of another deity who is working directly against a plot Lolth is involved in.

Does she know that? And honestly, even if she does, you might still be beneath her notice. (Incidentally, this is your best chance of survival if the above posts didn't already make that clear.)