SangoProduction
2015-12-27, 03:53 AM
Help wanted: check over the following to see if something could be done better (without using spell casters of any kind), or if I am making mistakes, or maybe suggest some more ideas.
Section 1: Where he starts off.
Using Savage Species. Taking Umbral template (incorporeal undead with 1d6 no save str damage on touch, and other nice utility/immunity...for +5 LA, lol.) For the base race.... Human...or Tallfellow Halfling. I think this is the only situation in which I thought a non-human would be useful beyond thematics.
Although it could then be argued that you didn't take the class level before the Umbral Creature template, and so you get to have 2 Incorporeal Touch natural attacks.
Just read back over Umbral...Text trumps Table, and Text says it only deals 1d6 damage, regardless of size...otherwise.../sigh go human. [Actually, just read over it AGAIN!] Turns out you have an Incorporeal Touch natural attack (which scales with size), and then the Strength Damage special attack, which damages strength (regardless of size) when you touch someone, and makes your strength damage lethal. So a Halfling would still have 1d6 strength damage [Strength Damage], and 1d4 strength damage [Incorporeal Touch], and thus is not losing all that much (from 6 average str damage to 5)
Given a 32 point buy, and not being able to dump int further than -8 (which is the standard starting stat for D&D), the stat spread before racials is
STR: -
DEX: 18
CON: -
Int: 8
Wis: 16 [so that you can make saves]
Cha: 14 [bonus deflection AC, plus...I had points left over]
After Racials [assuming a halfling], that's
Dex: 22; Int: 4; Wis: 18; Cha: 18
So, you're...how do you even explain those mental stats? The wonders of point buy with undead. Also, Halfling downsides are completely negated by this template, as you have no strength to lose, and have an automatic, faster move speed.
Clearly, we are going to want Weapon Finesse, as we have no strength, but have a pretty nice Dex.
I am now 5 BAB behind a full BAB class at ECL 6, but I am ignoring armor, natural armor, and shields...which should put me well in the running for hitting most stuff that relies on strength. Even if they are a Dex build (if using a standard race), they would only match my dex bonus to hit with their dex to AC by level 7. They should be getting some good magical bonuses going on by now, but I don't think it'll be more than +2 or so AC to touch attacks. But, LA doesn't mean you don't get your wealth by level for your ECL, if I'm correct, so you should also be able to have like an Necklace of Natural Attacks or what have you, to even it out.
Also, since you are faster than most people, and you can only attack once with a natural attack regardless of BAB, if I'm correct, you effectively have pounce as far as your Incorporeal touch is concerned.
So, you'd have a 50/50 shot of hitting someone of similar class levels as your effective level on an unfortunate circumstance, but you'd be quite reliable on anyone who's not prepared for your nonsense. Against someone who's specifically protected against you (ghost-touch armor), or against mages (mage armor / shield / circle against x / so on), you will have a hard time, but that's generally how it always goes. Against an unprepared mage, especially one which dumped their strength, it's plenty possible that they'd die in the first round.
Your saves aren't great, due to the lack of class bonuses to them, but you've got innate turn resistance, and good Wisdom and Dex, and you're immune to most Fort saves (and have a good Cha, if you do need to make them).
Section 2: Where he goes from there.
He's going to be an auto attacking character, without spell casting. I'd like to avoid the "unusual" classes, for the most part, as this alone would be hard to get past the group - adding in Unarmed Swordsage, or something silly like maximum natural attacks Totemist would be a definite no-go. I would like to go in to the Soul Eater prestige class (mostly because it sounds cool, but it also inflicts negative levels [no save] on touch).
Problem is...Soul Eater requires BAB (and I kinda want BAB), but most of the BAB classes primarily improve the Fort save (which is usually useless to us), and have terrible Will Saves (the most important one). I specifically don't want to cast spells either. Well, I don't think there's a way around that.
Section 3: Classes
So, for the first 5 BAB:
-One Level of Swashbuckler, as we wanted Weapon Finesse anyway. (Or maybe Incorporeal things already have it, effectively, in which case, don't take it. I don't know.)
-At least 2 levels of Fighter. Feats and full BAB is useful.
-If you can get Whirling Frenzy Barbarian, then you probably want that over the fighter, because of the bonus attack.
-If saves are being a big deal, and you don't mind delaying Soul Eater by yet another level, then a two level dip in Monk for Combat Reflexes, Evasion, and +3 to all saves might be useful.
--I actually cracked open the Complete Warrior book, and found that Hexblade might be useful (although I'm still morally opposed to it, personally, lol), being a full-BAB class with Will saves, and Mettle, which is basically evasion for Fortitude and Will, which is kinda great considering what Fort and Will saves that affect undead can do. Also, Alternate Class feature out that Familiar for a Shadow Companion to reduce the adjacent enemies' saves and AC, letting you land more attacks, and it's more thematic, and it doesn't die.
I might actually make this the class I go in to for this build, for 4 levels, after taking Whirling Barbarian.
Then until level 20: Buy off the LA, and progress Soul Eater. You can buy off 3 LA before 20 (just barely). Only 2 of the 7 abilities you get by level 8 of Soul Eater are incredibly useful, 2 of which are completely dead for you (giving bonuses to strength and con), and the bonus to Dex is enhancement, so you probably aren't getting any bonuses there. That said, I still think 7 levels of Soul Eater is...decent(?)...for the level drain.
Or I could go in to Justicar and dip in to Soul Eater for 1 level, because Justicar can further increase the strength damage dealt...by 1 per hit, but still, that's not bad...if it weren't a sneak-attack reliant thing. Kensai could be useful if you aren't allowed Necklace of Natural Attacks, as you effectively can get +11 attack bonus, plus Speed enchantment, from your natural attacks in just 8 levels.
Section 4: Feats
Well... in order of preference...of what I can remember...:
1) Weapon Finesse, or the equivalent, because you want an actual bonus to attack.
2) Combat Reflexes, because that effectively means more attacks.
3) Weapon Focus (Incorporeal Touch), because Soul Eater requires it.
4) Alertness, because Soul Eater Requires it
5) I perhaps don't value initiative as much as others do, but this guy seems like he could potentially one shot people, and even if he doesn't, it does quite severely weaken them, so Improved Initiative might be quite nice.
6) Perhaps Willing Deformity: Tall's feat chain, so you have increased reach.
7) Maybe Fleet of Foot to improve your mobility as far as charging/running is concerned (letting you make up to a 90 degree turn).
8) The Run or Sprint feats might be useful if you actually find the enemies trying to run.
9) It's not generally worth the feats, but if you are having trouble with saves, then the feats that increase them might be of use.
Beyond that...I can't really think of anything. Perhaps those rage feats from Complete Adventurer or Warrior or something, if you got Whirling Frenzy Barbarian.
Section 5: Magic Items
First off, let me say that this is my least proficient area of D&D, and I don't even know if it's possible for an incorporeal creature to use non-ghost touch magic items, which means most of them. I think it's likely that they can though.
So, obviously, you get your essentials (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?187851-3-5-Lists-of-Necessary-Magic-Items).
But, more specifically, you will, in all likelihood, need Necklace of Natural Attacks, which will let you effectively enchant your natural attacks. I would go with Throwing, for the hilarity factor, but you're already faster than most others, so it's probably not necessary to be able to make unarmed ranged attacks.
For specific Enchantments: Well, that's a difficult one, as HP damage isn't your goal. Speed could definitely be nice for the bonus attack (though only on a full attack). Otherwise, I think just getting as many pluses to your attack roll as possible is what you want, as it is kinda the best thing you can do with enchantments to increase the damage you deal in this method.
Also, Beast Claws, in Savage Species allows you to have 2 claw attacks. It might not be possible to use, as you are not a medium sized humanoid, but if allowed, that'd be 4 natural attacks, if you got Shadow's Incorporeal touch to count as a second natural attack. It could well be argued that the claws don't allow you to touch the target, as you are hitting with the gauntlets, rather than yourself. If that's the case, then ignore this. It could also be complete overkill, in the case that you actually want to bring it to a table, even if it was allowed to transfer touch.
Is there anything I missed?
Well, is there?
Section 1: Where he starts off.
Using Savage Species. Taking Umbral template (incorporeal undead with 1d6 no save str damage on touch, and other nice utility/immunity...for +5 LA, lol.) For the base race.... Human...or Tallfellow Halfling. I think this is the only situation in which I thought a non-human would be useful beyond thematics.
Although it could then be argued that you didn't take the class level before the Umbral Creature template, and so you get to have 2 Incorporeal Touch natural attacks.
Just read back over Umbral...Text trumps Table, and Text says it only deals 1d6 damage, regardless of size...otherwise.../sigh go human. [Actually, just read over it AGAIN!] Turns out you have an Incorporeal Touch natural attack (which scales with size), and then the Strength Damage special attack, which damages strength (regardless of size) when you touch someone, and makes your strength damage lethal. So a Halfling would still have 1d6 strength damage [Strength Damage], and 1d4 strength damage [Incorporeal Touch], and thus is not losing all that much (from 6 average str damage to 5)
Given a 32 point buy, and not being able to dump int further than -8 (which is the standard starting stat for D&D), the stat spread before racials is
STR: -
DEX: 18
CON: -
Int: 8
Wis: 16 [so that you can make saves]
Cha: 14 [bonus deflection AC, plus...I had points left over]
After Racials [assuming a halfling], that's
Dex: 22; Int: 4; Wis: 18; Cha: 18
So, you're...how do you even explain those mental stats? The wonders of point buy with undead. Also, Halfling downsides are completely negated by this template, as you have no strength to lose, and have an automatic, faster move speed.
Clearly, we are going to want Weapon Finesse, as we have no strength, but have a pretty nice Dex.
I am now 5 BAB behind a full BAB class at ECL 6, but I am ignoring armor, natural armor, and shields...which should put me well in the running for hitting most stuff that relies on strength. Even if they are a Dex build (if using a standard race), they would only match my dex bonus to hit with their dex to AC by level 7. They should be getting some good magical bonuses going on by now, but I don't think it'll be more than +2 or so AC to touch attacks. But, LA doesn't mean you don't get your wealth by level for your ECL, if I'm correct, so you should also be able to have like an Necklace of Natural Attacks or what have you, to even it out.
Also, since you are faster than most people, and you can only attack once with a natural attack regardless of BAB, if I'm correct, you effectively have pounce as far as your Incorporeal touch is concerned.
So, you'd have a 50/50 shot of hitting someone of similar class levels as your effective level on an unfortunate circumstance, but you'd be quite reliable on anyone who's not prepared for your nonsense. Against someone who's specifically protected against you (ghost-touch armor), or against mages (mage armor / shield / circle against x / so on), you will have a hard time, but that's generally how it always goes. Against an unprepared mage, especially one which dumped their strength, it's plenty possible that they'd die in the first round.
Your saves aren't great, due to the lack of class bonuses to them, but you've got innate turn resistance, and good Wisdom and Dex, and you're immune to most Fort saves (and have a good Cha, if you do need to make them).
Section 2: Where he goes from there.
He's going to be an auto attacking character, without spell casting. I'd like to avoid the "unusual" classes, for the most part, as this alone would be hard to get past the group - adding in Unarmed Swordsage, or something silly like maximum natural attacks Totemist would be a definite no-go. I would like to go in to the Soul Eater prestige class (mostly because it sounds cool, but it also inflicts negative levels [no save] on touch).
Problem is...Soul Eater requires BAB (and I kinda want BAB), but most of the BAB classes primarily improve the Fort save (which is usually useless to us), and have terrible Will Saves (the most important one). I specifically don't want to cast spells either. Well, I don't think there's a way around that.
Section 3: Classes
So, for the first 5 BAB:
-One Level of Swashbuckler, as we wanted Weapon Finesse anyway. (Or maybe Incorporeal things already have it, effectively, in which case, don't take it. I don't know.)
-At least 2 levels of Fighter. Feats and full BAB is useful.
-If you can get Whirling Frenzy Barbarian, then you probably want that over the fighter, because of the bonus attack.
-If saves are being a big deal, and you don't mind delaying Soul Eater by yet another level, then a two level dip in Monk for Combat Reflexes, Evasion, and +3 to all saves might be useful.
--I actually cracked open the Complete Warrior book, and found that Hexblade might be useful (although I'm still morally opposed to it, personally, lol), being a full-BAB class with Will saves, and Mettle, which is basically evasion for Fortitude and Will, which is kinda great considering what Fort and Will saves that affect undead can do. Also, Alternate Class feature out that Familiar for a Shadow Companion to reduce the adjacent enemies' saves and AC, letting you land more attacks, and it's more thematic, and it doesn't die.
I might actually make this the class I go in to for this build, for 4 levels, after taking Whirling Barbarian.
Then until level 20: Buy off the LA, and progress Soul Eater. You can buy off 3 LA before 20 (just barely). Only 2 of the 7 abilities you get by level 8 of Soul Eater are incredibly useful, 2 of which are completely dead for you (giving bonuses to strength and con), and the bonus to Dex is enhancement, so you probably aren't getting any bonuses there. That said, I still think 7 levels of Soul Eater is...decent(?)...for the level drain.
Or I could go in to Justicar and dip in to Soul Eater for 1 level, because Justicar can further increase the strength damage dealt...by 1 per hit, but still, that's not bad...if it weren't a sneak-attack reliant thing. Kensai could be useful if you aren't allowed Necklace of Natural Attacks, as you effectively can get +11 attack bonus, plus Speed enchantment, from your natural attacks in just 8 levels.
Section 4: Feats
Well... in order of preference...of what I can remember...:
1) Weapon Finesse, or the equivalent, because you want an actual bonus to attack.
2) Combat Reflexes, because that effectively means more attacks.
3) Weapon Focus (Incorporeal Touch), because Soul Eater requires it.
4) Alertness, because Soul Eater Requires it
5) I perhaps don't value initiative as much as others do, but this guy seems like he could potentially one shot people, and even if he doesn't, it does quite severely weaken them, so Improved Initiative might be quite nice.
6) Perhaps Willing Deformity: Tall's feat chain, so you have increased reach.
7) Maybe Fleet of Foot to improve your mobility as far as charging/running is concerned (letting you make up to a 90 degree turn).
8) The Run or Sprint feats might be useful if you actually find the enemies trying to run.
9) It's not generally worth the feats, but if you are having trouble with saves, then the feats that increase them might be of use.
Beyond that...I can't really think of anything. Perhaps those rage feats from Complete Adventurer or Warrior or something, if you got Whirling Frenzy Barbarian.
Section 5: Magic Items
First off, let me say that this is my least proficient area of D&D, and I don't even know if it's possible for an incorporeal creature to use non-ghost touch magic items, which means most of them. I think it's likely that they can though.
So, obviously, you get your essentials (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?187851-3-5-Lists-of-Necessary-Magic-Items).
But, more specifically, you will, in all likelihood, need Necklace of Natural Attacks, which will let you effectively enchant your natural attacks. I would go with Throwing, for the hilarity factor, but you're already faster than most others, so it's probably not necessary to be able to make unarmed ranged attacks.
For specific Enchantments: Well, that's a difficult one, as HP damage isn't your goal. Speed could definitely be nice for the bonus attack (though only on a full attack). Otherwise, I think just getting as many pluses to your attack roll as possible is what you want, as it is kinda the best thing you can do with enchantments to increase the damage you deal in this method.
Also, Beast Claws, in Savage Species allows you to have 2 claw attacks. It might not be possible to use, as you are not a medium sized humanoid, but if allowed, that'd be 4 natural attacks, if you got Shadow's Incorporeal touch to count as a second natural attack. It could well be argued that the claws don't allow you to touch the target, as you are hitting with the gauntlets, rather than yourself. If that's the case, then ignore this. It could also be complete overkill, in the case that you actually want to bring it to a table, even if it was allowed to transfer touch.
Is there anything I missed?
Well, is there?