D&D 5th Ed Rules Question: Minotaur Monk

[TechnOkami]

So, visually the idea of a Minotaur Monk appeals the hell out of me, but I've got a logistics question.

Minotaurs have a natural attack with their horns. If they make an attack with their horns, can they use Martial Arts/Flurry of Blows after using it? That's essentially my question in a nutshell.

[ImSAMazing]

Well, it is a part of their body, and the PHB says that an unarmed strike could be an attack with your head, so I would say that it counts as an unarmed strike. I don't really know if that's RAW, but it certainly increases the power of a Strength monk. Not much, but it is an improvement.

[TechnOkami]

Aaaaaaand you made me realize I need to edit a few things about my thread lol.

This is for 5th ed, not 3.5.

Flurry of Blows and Martial Arts are their own special abilities that interact interestingly in the system.

[SwordChuck]

Minotaur horn attack is not an unarmed strike, just like a monster's claw/bite/tail attack isn't an unarmed strike.

However you can make an unarmed strike with them (and your horns). The ammount of damage would be equal to your unarmed strike damage. For most people that is 1 + str. For the monk that is 1d4 + Str or Dex and goes up based on level.

Using in such a way is the only way to use martial arts with them due to them not being a monk weapon or an unarmed strike (when used as a weapon to gain the 1d10 base damage).

[Shining Wrath]

When discussing the minotaur's horns the Waterborne rules actually say "You are never unarmed" so I say the horn counts as a weapon.

[Tenmujiin]

Personally I'd allow your horns to be counted as a monk weapon since it's a small boost to an otherwise suboptimal (for your class) race, RaW is as swordchuck stated however.

[TechnOkami]

Alright, let me be a little clearer, or try to.

If Joe the Minotaur makes an attack with his horns, he could spend a point of Ki to do his Flurry of Blows, but because the horns do not count as either a Monk Weapon or an Unarmed Strike, he would not gain the advantages of Martial Arts and thus not be able to make an Unarmed Strike as a bonus action, correct?


Also, a separate question.

Do Martial Arts and Flurry of Blows stack? As in, when I make an Unarmed Strike or attack with a Monk Weapon, I get one attack from Martial Arts and spend a Ki Point for two more and thus make four separate attacks? Am I correct in this thinking as well or no?

[SwordChuck]

Alright, let me be a little clearer, or try to.

If Joe the Minotaur makes an attack with his horns, he could spend a point of Ki to do his Flurry of Blows, but because the horns do not count as either a Monk Weapon or an Unarmed Strike, he would not gain the advantages of Martial Arts and thus not be able to make an Unarmed Strike as a bonus action, correct?


Also, a separate question.

Do Martial Arts and Flurry of Blows stack? As in, when I make an Unarmed Strike or attack with a Monk Weapon, I get one attack from Martial Arts and spend a Ki Point for two more and thus make four separate attacks? Am I correct in this thinking as well or no?

They don't stack. Though Flurry of Blows works as if it does... Flurry of Blows is a BA that gives you two attacks. You are essentially using martial arts and a lot to get 1 additional attack in...

Think of Flurry of Blows as a upgrade to martial arts.

Put it this way, because of how fiddly 5e can be, Joe the Minotaur can use his horns as weapons OR a unarmed attack. Depending on how you use them will depend on the damage and the features they go with. If used as an unarmed attack they deal less damage but you can trigger abilities.

When it says they are never unarmed it means that they can use their horns as a weapon at any time and dont have to worry having a weapon or not for some rules.

5e really needs to clean itself up.

[arrowstorm]

I, personally, would let it work in my games. I seriously doubt it would work in AL. I don't see the logic in headbutt=unarmed strike, unless your head is pointy.

[eastmabl]

I, personally, would let it work in my games. I seriously doubt it would work in AL. I don't see the logic in headbutt=unarmed strike, unless your head is pointy.

You never get to this question in AL. A minotaur is from Unearthed Arcana, which is explicitly forbidden in AL games.

[SwordChuck]

I, personally, would let it work in my games. I seriously doubt it would work in AL. I don't see the logic in headbutt=unarmed strike, unless your head is pointy.

Headbutts, kicks, punches, and crotch thrusts are all unarmed strikes in the core rules.

An unarmed strike is an attack without a weapon (though it is a weapon attack for certain purposes? Fiddly rules -_-).

And it has always been this way but due to the conservative nature of D&D players (seriously, that's weird) a lot have thought it was just punching and kicking.

Due to Minotaur horns being weapon attacks, they don't count as unarmed attacks. However I would allow it to be used to initiate FoB, just not part of FoB until the monks unarmed damage is at d10.

[M Placeholder]

So, visually the idea of a Minotaur Monk appeals the hell out of me, but I've got a logistics question.


Personally I'd allow your horns to be counted as a monk weapon since it's a small boost to an otherwise suboptimal (for your class) race, RaW is as swordchuck stated however.

It also appealed to the creators of a (pretty underrated IMHO) settin (http://dragonlancenexus.com/adlatum/?p=144)g on the world of Krynn, evidently.

Now I want to play as a minotaur monk. Not sure I could handle the kender necromancer though.

[JumboWheat01]

Headbutts, kicks, punches, and crotch thrusts are all unarmed strikes in the core rules.

Wait, would that include a hip/butt check? I knew monks were hard asses at times, but I didn't think it would mean LITERALLY.

[rlc]

I, personally, would let it work in my games. I seriously doubt it would work in AL. I don't see the logic in headbutt=unarmed strike, unless your head is pointy.
You have obviously never been headbutted, even by accident. You have also obviously never seen anybody get headbutted. I'm actually surprised you even know the term "headbutt."

[SwordChuck]

Wait, would that include a hip/butt check? I knew monks were hard asses at times, but I didn't think it would mean LITERALLY.

Yup! Unarmed strikes is a very narrative driven mechanical rule.

Of course there is some silly things along with unarmed strikes. Of you have a dagger (light weapon) a normal person can twf and use dex. But if you don't have the dagger your fists aren't light and can't be used with dex... Because reasons...

(they didn't want to step on the monk's toes... But I don't think allowing dex unarmed strikes to be just a monk thing, all the monk features are what makes a monk a monk)

Also, the idea of a Minotaur Monk were kinda explained when there was a question about wildshaping monks. Monks can still unarmed strike, they just cant use the creature's weapon attacks like the claws or bites.

[VariSami]

You have obviously never been headbutted, even by accident. You have also obviously never seen anybody get headbutted. I'm actually surprised you even know the term "headbutt."

I am relatively certain that the originally quoted poster's intention was to say that the logic of headbutt='unarmed strike, unless your head is pointy' is incomprehensible. The structuring of the latter part makes all the difference. What was being criticized seems to have been how a headbutt would no longer count as an unarmed strike if you have horns.

[M Placeholder]

You have obviously never been headbutted, even by accident. You have also obviously never seen anybody get headbutted. I'm actually surprised you even know the term "headbutt."

I think he means how it works for the minotaur, without them being knocked loopy themselves when they nut another creature. Well, the minotaurs have a pretty thick skull and in most of the pictures of them from the Dragonlance setting, they have a large boss (https://www.edu.physics.uoc.gr/~lookas/pictures/lance50.jpg). That helps to absorb the impact when they headbutt or charge another humanoid.

Also, they have proportionally larger heads than most other humanoids. I can totally buy a minotaur headbutting a human, elf or kender for an unarmed strike.

[rlc]

I am relatively certain that the originally quoted poster's intention was to say that the logic of headbutt='unarmed strike, unless your head is pointy' is incomprehensible. The structuring of the latter part makes all the difference. What was being criticized seems to have been how a headbutt would no longer count as an unarmed strike if you have horns.

Fair enough. I guess I misunderstood that.

[TechnOkami]

It also appealed to the creators of a (pretty underrated IMHO) settin (http://dragonlancenexus.com/adlatum/?p=144)g on the world of Krynn, evidently.

Now I want to play as a minotaur monk. Not sure I could handle the kender necromancer though.

There's a funny story or twelve there.

So in a game with friend, I'm playing a Kender Warlock whose made a pact, SOMEHOW, with the Grey Gem.

And the backup character for the same game is a Minotaur Necromancer.

I've generally decided that the race I'm going to be sticking with for my monk will either be Elven or Human, leaning toward Elven.

[BurgerBeast]

Yup! Unarmed strikes is a very narrative driven mechanical rule.

Of course there is some silly things along with unarmed strikes. Of you have a dagger (light weapon) a normal person can twf and use dex. But if you don't have the dagger your fists aren't light and can't be used with dex... Because reasons...

I don't see a problem with this, personally. It makes sense to me that a dagger can be more deadly, by virtue of contacting the enemy alone, than a fist, so it is easier to damage someone with a dagger with dexterity and without strength. On the other hand, to cause damage to someone with your fist implies more than simply striking them, it involves striking them hard, hence strength.

I'm not even saying I think that what I've written above should be the way the rules are written. I'm just saying that there is some sense in them, if you look at them in a particular way.

[SwordChuck]

I don't see a problem with this, personally. It makes sense to me that a dagger can be more deadly, by virtue of contacting the enemy alone, than a fist, so it is easier to damage someone with a dagger with dexterity and without strength. On the other hand, to cause damage to someone with your fist implies more than simply striking them, it involves striking them hard, hence strength.

I'm not even saying I think that what I've written above should be the way the rules are written. I'm just saying that there is some sense in them, if you look at them in a particular way.

The problem is that having a weapon is lighter than not having a weapon and there is a class or two that can dodge fireballs by standing mostly still but can't use dex to attack with their unarmed strikes. Hell, you can't twf with your unarmed strikes but you can if you have two light weapons? How does that compute?

Somehow having weapons makes you quicker and lighter than not having weapons...

By trying to make the monk special they added in a bunch of fiddly nonsensical rules that wasn't really needed.

If you want to make the monk special you don't need to do it this way. Hell. They even made the unarmed strike all screwed up in its classification. It's not a weapon that counts as a weapon sometimes except when blah blah blah...

It's quite a mess for a game that doesn't want fiddly rules.