Sun Soul Monk Is Terrible

[Strill]

I want to know where this class's perks went! All I see are costly niche alternative options that most of the time are worse than what the base monk already had! The 11th level perk is good, but the 3rd and 6th level perks aren't even worth using.

3rd Level: Radiant Sun Bolt

This perk gives you the benefit of having a ranged attack on what was already the most mobile class in the game. So already it's mostly redundant. The drawback is that you can't use your weapon damage dice, can't get magic weapon upgrades, and can't use your class's single-most important ability: Stunning Strike. I'm seeing a ton of negatives, and not many positives. The only benefit I can think of is against those few enemies with resistance to magic weapons, or vulnerability to radiant damage.

6th level: Searing Arc Strike

Why would I use this worthless piece of crap instead of Stunning Strike? I'd have to sacrifice TWO stunning strikes to use this! That's ridiculous! Maybe if you somehow manage to pack four enemies into the blast area, I might begin to consider it, but an obscure situation like that is unacceptably rare for an ability like this.

11th level: Searing Sunburst:
Unlike the 6th-level perk, this one is actually worth considering. Clear out weak enemies for free, spend 3 ki for a genuine fireball, or 1 ki for half a fireball. A great ability, especially because it does radiant damage and not fire.

17th level: Sun Shield
I use my reaction when hit to deal upwards of 10 damage to an enemy. It doesn't cost resources, and it's certainly not bad, but by this level, an ability like that isn't all that notable.

-------------------

If I were to ever consider using this class in my games, I'd first need to homebrew on a reason to use Radiant Sun Bolt. It'd need to at least have magic weapons to boost it, as well as some other extra ability to provide the actual meat of the perk. As-is, it's barely more than a ribbon.

Searing Arc Strike could be free and I'd still have to think twice before using it. It's garbage. I'd replace it with something that's not made obsolete by Searing Sunburst.

[WickerNipple]

I more or less agree. I think you're discounting some of the versatility of being ranged or melee, but it's true monk needs that the least.

I assume it's just there for dragonball fetishists who aren't worried about mechanics so much.

[Dalebert]

Similar to the elemental monk, these abilities don't really seem designed with synergy in mind. They're just awkwardly tacked on abilities that might see effective use occasionally in a certain context but are very hard to justify the opportunity cost you pay in terms of archetypes that fit a monk better, i.e. the shadow or the hand.

[SharkForce]

radiant damage is pretty good. very few things resist it, various things are vulnerable to it, and while it may not be the most useful ability, it's never a bad thing to have a reliable ranged attack.

searing arc strike, iirc, is burning hands as a bonus action. sounds pretty handy if you're ever in a fight with a group of enemies.

and sun shield is still a reaction damaging ability. it isn't huge, but it isn't exactly awful either. I suspect if you plugged it into a DPR calculater you'd find it was reasonably significant as a DPR increase.

[Strill]

radiant damage is pretty good. very few things resist it, various things are vulnerable to it, and while it may not be the most useful ability, it's never a bad thing to have a reliable ranged attack.Very very few things resist magic weapons too, and at level 6, a monk's unarmed attacks become magical. It's a very niche ability.


searing arc strike, iirc, is burning hands as a bonus action. sounds pretty handy if you're ever in a fight with a group of enemies.You already have many uses for your bonus action, such as attacking twice for 1 ki. Why spend 2 ki for an attack that hits at most 6 tiles?

I'll give you a mathematical analysis. The opportunity cost for using it is three attacks. Two from the Bonus action you're using instead of Flurry of Blows, and one for the extra attack from your next turn's flurry of blows that you could've spent the second point of ki on. With 20 DEX and a d6 weapon die, that's 25.5 before magic weapons. Since Burning Hands does 3d6 per target, you'd have to hit at least three enemies to match Flurry of Blows, and four enemies to exceed it. Fitting four enemies in that small of an area is a ridiculously obscure situation.

That's not taking into consideration the fact that your WIS will be lower than your DEX, so your chance to land the burning hands is lower than your chance to land the Flurry of Blows attacks, even more so if you have a magic item to boost your unarmed attacks.


and sun shield is still a reaction damaging ability. it isn't huge, but it isn't exactly awful either. I suspect if you plugged it into a DPR calculater you'd find it was reasonably significant as a DPR increase.Since it doesn't require an attack roll or saving throw, it's a straight 5 + WIS DPR increase, assuming you get hit every turn, and assuming you didn't already have something to use your reaction on, such as Sentinel or Deflect Missiles.

[SharkForce]

Very very few things resist magic weapons too, and at level 6, a monk's unarmed attacks become magical. It's a very niche ability.

You already have many uses for your bonus action, such as attacking twice for 1 ki. Why spend 2 ki for

Since it doesn't require an attack roll or saving throw, it's a straight 5 + WIS DPR increase, assuming you get hit every turn, and assuming you didn't already have something to use your reaction on, such as Sentinel or Deflect Missiles.

- a monk's unarmed strike isn't ranged. that isn't always important, but I'd certainly much prefer to have a ranged attack when fighting flying creatures, or when fighting enemies that have a damaging aura, or when fighting enemies from good cover when they have attacks readied, etc. it isn't always useful, but it is always a good idea to have a ranged weapon handy just in case, and sun soul monks always do have a ranged weapon handy, and it is the next-best-thing to a magic weapon with unlimited shots. given that the alternative is basically lobbing a single dagger per round when ranged attacks become necessary, I am disinclined to say that having a good ranged attack option is not a valuable tool in the sun soul monk's arsenal.

- because sometimes hitting a bunch of creatures with fire damage is better than punching twice, and as a monk you generally have the ability to get into and out of positions where burning hands can hit a large cluster of vulnerable creatures better than, say, a wizard can.

- you do realize that top-tier DPR builds go up to something like 45-50 damage average unless they spend resources, right? +10 DPR is not a small thing.

[Strill]

given that the alternative is basically lobbing a single dagger per round when ranged attacks become necessaryThere is no difference here. With Sun Soul you attack with two ranged attacks. Without Sun Soul you attack with two dart or sling attacks. Both do the same damage in 99% of circumstances.


- because sometimes hitting a bunch of creatures with fire damage is better than punching twice, and as a monk you generally have the ability to get into and out of positions where burning hands can hit a large cluster of vulnerable creatures better than, say, a wizard can.And it still isn't better unless you can hit at least four enemies. You have an area of six tiles with which to hit them. Good luck finding such an exact circumstance.


- you do realize that top-tier DPR builds go up to something like 45-50 damage average unless they spend resources, right? +10 DPR is not a small thing.You can ignore all the drawbacks and alternatives, but that doesn't change the facts. The gross gain is +10 DRP, not net.

[MaxWilson]

- a monk's unarmed strike isn't ranged. that isn't always important, but I'd certainly much prefer to have a ranged attack when fighting flying creatures, or when fighting enemies that have a damaging aura, or when fighting enemies from good cover when they have attacks readied, etc. it isn't always useful, but it is always a good idea to have a ranged weapon handy just in case, and sun soul monks always do have a ranged weapon handy, and it is the next-best-thing to a magic weapon with unlimited shots. given that the alternative is basically lobbing a single dagger per round when ranged attacks become necessary, I am disinclined to say that having a good ranged attack option is not a valuable tool in the sun soul monk's arsenal.

Wood Elves are a popular monk base, and a Wood Elf monk is basically the only type of elf which actually benefits from elven weapon proficiencies. Longbow for 2x d8+4ish at 5th level isn't bad at all. By 20th level that is no longer impressive or perhaps even relevant, but at 11th or 12th level it's still pretty good.


- you do realize that top-tier DPR builds go up to something like 45-50 damage average unless they spend resources, right? +10 DPR is not a small thing.

Doesn't a Sun Soul monk have to get hit in order for his 10ish DPR to trigger? That's not really DPR then, it's a way of using his reaction to convert his own HP into damage.

I think you're wrong about the ceiling on top-tier DPR builds. A Mounted Combatant GWM Polearm Master Eldritch Knight 20 with a +1 weapon (possibly from his own Magic Weapon spell), for example, will hit 127.06 DPR against hordes of CR 1/2 Shadows and 111.58 DPR against CR 7 Mind Flayers, or 99 DPR against hobgoblins and Duergar Xarrorns. Against Clay Golems his Mounted Combatant doesn't work so he has to dedicate an attack to Shoving prone, giving an overall DPR of 80.41 plus a reaction attack for 15.33.

DPR doesn't excite me per se, but as far as DPR goes, the ceiling on at-will DPR is much higher than 45-50 unless you are exclusively fighting beasties with AC 24 and up.

[darkdragoon]

It scales with your unarmed dice. At very low levels you're griping about maybe 1 damage on average.
Having a magic weapon is a big if. Also as a "spell attack" there may be other options if you do find magic items.
Searing Arc is highly situational, but there are times when it may be preferable to beam+burn instead of all beams or ki ball.

[DracoKnight]

You already have many uses for your bonus action, such as attacking twice for 1 ki. Why spend 2 ki for an attack that hits at most 6 tiles?

Because an attack that costs 2 Ki still does more damage than an attack that costs 1 ki, and hits *maybe* 2 squares. Remember that burning hands is save for half. And Sun Soul gets it as a bonus action.

[Dimers]

There is no difference here. With Sun Soul you attack with two ranged attacks. Without Sun Soul you attack with two dart or sling attacks.

The entry says that when you use the Attack action to use your laser beam, you can spend a ki to fire twice more as a bonus action. If you're using Attack and you've hit 5th level as a monk, you can fire two of these with your action and then two more as a bonus action.

Not that I think that will make it worthwhile in your opinion :smallwink:

[SharkForce]

- you can't make 2 dart or sling attacks. slings require reloading, darts require drawing a weapon, and neither of those things can be done more than once per round. you *might* get one round of two attacks, if you prepared in advance. in neither case can you flurry with them, in any event.

- longbows require drawing a weapon, lock out your martial arts ability (you can't be wielding a non-monk weapon), have limited ammunition, and don't inherently bypass damage resistance or immunity. unless you're using a magical bow that could be better put to use as someone's primary weapon.

- plus 10 DPR assuming you get hit once per round is both gross and net, because almost nothing reduces it (iirc there are a couple of celestials, but that's not exactly something common enough to be a concern). getting hit is not that hard for anyone in 5e. in fact, i would say that not getting hit at all is pretty uncommon for a melee combatant; you can't get enough AC to reliably avoid damage. sun soul monks just happen to get something that lets them add a bit of extra damage against things that *do* hit them.

- i'm supposed to give a crap what the DPR numbers look like for a level 20 (using magical gear or blowing a significant portion of their daily resources) against trivial opponents? your damage against shadows at that level is only relevant if a spellcaster doesn't care enough to blow a low-level spell slot on slaughtering them all with a single action. oh goody, your damage against CR 1/2 creatures is high, oh wait, nobody cares, because they're CR 1. practically speaking, DPR against a meaningful opponent is not over 100. it is about 40-50, unless you spend resources (not that there's anything wrong with spending resources, but that generally means you're dropping a nova. 10 damage returned to an attacker is not great for a nova, but it's quite good to pull off round after round, and reaction attacks comprise a significant portion of berserker and polearm master DPR). 45-50 DPR is what you get for fighting opponents with around 19 AC... which is not unusual for the higher CR opponents you should be facing if you expect to see a meaningful challenge at level 20. obviously, nova damage can go higher, but then, i wasn't discussing nova damage.

- the fact that the monk has an option for their bonus action that *can* hit several enemies (and again, remember that the monk is better than anyone else at getting into position and back out to use it safely) is not a bad thing. no, it won't be used as the primary option in every single fight. it doesn't need to be. it still represents an option that the sun soul monk has that other monks don't, which is sometimes a superior option to what the monk would otherwise have. it doesn't have to be meteor swarm to be useful. maybe you're fighting a swarm, maybe your opponent has crazy AC but unimpressive dex saves, maybe you need to light a building on fire, maybe you're fighting trolls, or maybe you're fighting a ton of smaller creatures that don't take up as much space as medium sized creatures or which climb on walls and ceilings to attack you, and maybe you're just fighting a large group of enemies, some of whom happen to be in position for a 15 foot cone to be a worthwhile option. if some or all of those things happen from time to time, the sun soul monk has a great tool for the job that open hand or way of the shadow monks do not have.

(also, the monk is better at using 3 dimensions than most with their improved mobility, so being above a group of enemies and hitting a 15 foot diameter circle is not that improbable if you plan it out).

[Kane0]

Also, the monk is better at using 3 dimensions than most with their improved mobility, so being above a group of enemies and hitting a 15 foot diameter circle is not that improbable if you plan it out.

As a winged tiefling sun monk, I'm looking forward to bonus action burning hands.

[Strill]

- you can't make 2 dart or sling attacks. slings require reloading, darts require drawing a weapon, and neither of those things can be done more than once per round. you *might* get one round of two attacks, if you prepared in advance. in neither case can you flurry with them, in any event.Slings do not have the Loading tag.


- longbows require drawing a weapon, lock out your martial arts ability (you can't be wielding a non-monk weapon), have limited ammunition, and don't inherently bypass damage resistance or immunity. unless you're using a magical bow that could be better put to use as someone's primary weapon.Ok? Again, this is just some super-niche scenario where Sun Soul is only barely better in rare circumstances.


- plus 10 DPR assuming you get hit once per round is both gross and net, because almost nothing reduces it (iirc there are a couple of celestials, but that's not exactly something common enough to be a concern). getting hit is not that hard for anyone in 5e. in fact, i would say that not getting hit at all is pretty uncommon for a melee combatant; you can't get enough AC to reliably avoid damage. sun soul monks just happen to get something that lets them add a bit of extra damage against things that *do* hit them.It's not net because there are already ways to deal damage with your reaction. You're not considering the opportunity cost.


maybe your opponent has crazy AC but unimpressive dex savesShow me one. Remember that the DEX save has to be so low that it compensates for the fact that your WIS is lower than your DEX, as well as the to-hit bonuses from magic weapons.


if some or all of those things happen from time to time, the sun soul monk has a great tool for the job that open hand or way of the shadow monks do not have.You're grasping at straws. The question is not whether they have an ability that is beneficial. It's obvious that in sufficiently niche circumstances, all of their abilities are beneficial. The question is whether they're anywhere near as good as the alternatives.

[AbyssStalker]

Very very few things resist magic weapons too, and at level 6, a monk's unarmed attacks become magical. It's a very niche ability.

There are more things that resist bludgeoning damage than radiant by a good margin, but I do have to agree that the sub-class is some-what lack-luster, but not nearly so much as the Elemental Monk.

It is a niche ability to be sure, but I have seen situations where it would be nigh suicide for a monk to try the typical hit and run approach, so radiant sun bolt has adequate potential for use. It will probably be better than any other ranged backup weapon/ability in most cases, not that you shouldn't carry a back-up ranged weapon in case you need more ki for stunning strikes or etc.

These abilities are not quite as niche as you claim them to be, sure the shadow and fist monks have abilities that synchronize better with the class overall, but I could also see where a person would favor the soul monk's abilities over the others.

[Strill]

It is a niche ability to be sure, but I have seen situations where it would be nigh suicide for a monk to try the typical hit and run approach, so radiant sun bolt has adequate potential for use. It will probably be better than any other ranged backup weapon/ability in most cases, not that you shouldn't carry a back-up ranged weapon in case you need more ki for stunning strikes or etc.And what is the benefit that you get from Sun Bolt in this narrowly specific circumstance? You could already use a ranged weapon. What do you get from Sun Bolt that you didn't from a ranged weapon?

Moreover, what makes that particular benefit in that circumstance outweigh the benefits of Open Hand Style?

[SharkForce]

huh. never actually noticed slings aren't loading. guess i've never noticed because i've never actually seen someone who can make multiple attacks per round actually use them in 5e. they kinda suck, and anyone who can't use a better weapon has better cantrips. except the monk, that is.

on the other hand, slings aren't monk weapons, so that's got a pretty short period of time before the ability to deal your martial arts die on multiple attacks at ranged isn't better. (also iirc, don't sun soul monks have the ability to basically flurry with their ranged attack?)

also, i'm not inclined to agree that a monk's wisdom is going to be massively lower than their dex. lower, sure (probably), but it isn't going to be this monstrous insurmountable gap you're building it up to be where dex saves need to be absolutely awful. but, since you asked, i had to go almost 3 whole entries in to the monster manual, but found the aboleth after that exhaustive search. AC 17, dex save -1. but hey, maybe it's super-rare, right? for the next contestant, i almost had to go 5 whole entries into the monster manual, for the animated object (in this case, the armour, and to a lesser extent the sword). then we have the ankheg (14 AC vs 0 dex save, dex save is probably easier to land), azer (AC 17, dex save +1), and then that's the last of them... that start with A. because, i mean, surely if i didn't even have to go into the second letter of the alphabet to find several creatures that meet the criteria of much better AC than dex save, then that must be super-rare, right? i'm sure there aren't, say, beholders (and death tyrants), behirs, bugbear chiefs, and bulettes that start with the letter B and have much better AC than reflex saves, right? C was looking pretty good, with only Chuuls, but then i came across D which has death knights, demiliches, 4 types of demons, 5 types of devils, 1 dinosaur, most of the older dragons and some of the younger, dragon turtles, driders, and duergar which all have notably superior AC than dex saves (granted, some of those are immune or resistant to fire, so the specific example of burning hands is worse, but it is starting to look suspiciously like a pattern where high AC does not correlate to equally high dex saves particularly often).

and needing to carry ammunition, or wanting to be able to use one of your main class features (martial arts) doesn't strike me as being particularly super-niche. nor is being able to get past resistances on ranged attacks. certainly it isn't 100% frequency, but super-niche? really? you've never been in a situation where you're fighting an opponent, want to use ranged attacks, and that opponent was resistant or immune to non-magical weapons? not even once? i'm *really* struggling with this claim that this is supposedly some sort of super-niche scenario that never shows up.

furthermore, it's silly to claim that somehow a monk is giving up DPR to deal radiant damage with their reaction because they could use their reaction elsewhere to deal damage. unless by "monks" you mean "shadow monks only", that is, because while monks do have other potential uses for their reaction, as a rule dealing damage is not one of them; it might be theoretically possible to get an opportunity attack, but ime those don't come up that often. i suppose if they do, then the sun soul's ability to deal damage on a reaction loses some value (but still retains some value, because odds are good your monk isn't doing 10 damage on average from their reaction courtesy of not having a 100% hit rate and only dealing approximately 10 damage on a hit, generally speaking).

they have areas where they are worse than other monks. they have areas where they are better. sounds pretty reasonable to me. i don't know that i would say they are the absolute most optimized subclass of monk. i don't think i'd say they're my personal favourite either. but they aren't really doing dramatically worse than other monk subclasses. if they are behind, it really isn't by much.

the fact that you have apparently managed to avoid facing something like half the enemies in the DMG, and have never encountered scenarios where a free superior magical ranged attack is a useful thing to have, does not mean those things never happen or are not useful.

[AbyssStalker]

Moreover, what makes that particular benefit in that circumstance outweigh the benefits of Open Hand Style?

Not boring? With this class you will *puts sunglasses on* have a blast.

Just kidding, but only half-so, Open Hand monks (to me) are what the champion archetype is to the fighter class, it gives you exactly what you would expect, but just isn't that interesting. I would far rather take the Soul Monk, but then again I wish they would pump out some more archetypes for all the classes.

P.S. The enemy position being too strong for a direct melee has not been an uncommon occurrence, at least for monks I have seen, but then again, my DM typically has enemies that actually guard the spellcasters and catch on to the shadow-port pretty quickly, so YMMV. As for ranged weapons, your magical ranged weapon is probably better off going to a fighter or rogue so they can surpass the mundane weapon DR, which you are outright capable of penetrating early on.

Also, as has been stated before, radiant is a top tier damage type. There are a good amount of things vulnerable to it.

[Estralita]

Sorry to butt in, and I might be wrong, but it seems that there is a very simple reason why Sunbolt is the superior ranged option:

Martial Arts:
At 1st level, your practice of Martial Arts gives you mastery of combat styles that use unarmed strikes and monk weapons, which are shortswords and any simple melee weapons that don't have the heavy or two-handed property.

Slings and darts are both classified as ranged weapons. Therefore, they do not count as Monk weapons, and are stuck with the d4 damage dice

Maybe my interpretation is wrong, and you can certainly not like the choice the designers made, but just going off RAW, it appears Sun Soul Monks are The Ranged Monk.

[Strill]

Sorry to butt in, and I might be wrong, but it seems that there is a very simple reason why Sunbolt is the superior ranged option:
Monks have the most mobility of any class. The only time they should need to use a ranged attack is when there are flying enemies too high to jump to.

[Shining Wrath]

All those who consider ranged weapons useless for a monk because of their mobility need to consider a wizard behind a hydra or two with a low ceiling, as just one example. And please don't say "corner case" or "won't happen that often" - by definition, Wizards are intelligent foes, and they will have heard of monks, and a wizard who expects to confront the party (e.g., a BBEG or other recurring foe) will have multiple layers of defense against the monk's mobility. Difficult terrain, hordes of mooks, unclimbable walls, minions who can grapple the monk, et cetera.

Wizards are also not the only intelligent foes who will prepare for monks. Do you suppose that in a thousand-year lifespan a dragon might hear of these fast guys who can run up walls? Or a beholder?

The ability to have a powerful ranged attack doing radiant damage is not insignificant.

[AbyssStalker]

Monks have the most mobility of any class. The only time they should need to use a ranged attack is when there are flying enemies too high to jump to.

I have seen a spell-caster cast Hold Person on a monk trying to get past enemies and attack him before, 3 times actually, two times the monk died, the 3rd (chronologically the 2nd) time he made his save on the 2nd turn and barely got out alive. Needless to say, if you are facing off against intelligent enemies they have a high probability of being able to stop the monks hit and run game, if they don't have a spell-caster they can often just grapple the monk and then gang up on him.

P.S.Darn, slightly shadowmonk'd on my main point of enemies being capable of intelligence, but it still stands.

[MaxWilson]

- i'm supposed to give a crap what the DPR numbers look like for a level 20 (using magical gear or blowing a significant portion of their daily resources) against trivial opponents? your damage against shadows at that level is only relevant if a spellcaster doesn't care enough to blow a low-level spell slot on slaughtering them all with a single action. oh goody, your damage against CR 1/2 creatures is high, oh wait, nobody cares, because they're CR 1. practically speaking, DPR against a meaningful opponent is not over 100. it is about 40-50, unless you spend resources (not that there's anything wrong with spending resources, but that generally means you're dropping a nova. 10 damage returned to an attacker is not great for a nova, but it's quite good to pull off round after round, and reaction attacks comprise a significant portion of berserker and polearm master DPR). 45-50 DPR is what you get for fighting opponents with around 19 AC... which is not unusual for the higher CR opponents you should be facing if you expect to see a meaningful challenge at level 20. obviously, nova damage can go higher, but then, i wasn't discussing nova damage.

Against a wide range of opponents, all of them plausible threats to a level 20 character given 5E math and bounded accuracy, max at-will DPR is shown to be significantly higher than 45-50. As a completely separate example for those of you who fight nothing but solo monsters at level 20: an Arcane Trickster 20 using Booming Blade will do 73.61 DPR to a Pit Fiend or 63.92 to an Ancient Green Dragon.

Face it, Sun Shield is trash-tier even before we mention how it gives ranged attackers advantage to attack you in the dark, and conveniently doesn't function against ranged attacks, which as a high-level monk are the only attacks you're actually at all worried about.

But I'm not meaning to denigrate Sun Soul monks as a whole. I wouldn't play one, but I'm glad there are people who like them. Have a good game.

[Strill]

on the other hand, slings aren't monk weapons, so that's got a pretty short period of time before the ability to deal your martial arts die on multiple attacks at ranged isn't better. (also iirc, don't sun soul monks have the ability to basically flurry with their ranged attack?)No one's saying it's not slightly better in the particular circumstances where its benefits come into play. The point is that the situations where you would need a ranged attack in the first place is incredibly niche, and the benefits in those circumstances small and insignificant compared to the much more widely applicable benefits that other monk archetypes provide.


also, i'm not inclined to agree that a monk's wisdom is going to be massively lower than their dex. lower, sure (probably), but it isn't going to be this monstrous insurmountable gap you're building it up to be where dex saves need to be absolutely awful. but, since you asked, i had to go almost 3 whole entries in to the monster manual, but found the aboleth after that exhaustive search. AC 17, dex save -1.A DEX save of +0 corresponds to an AC of 14 in terms of chances of success and failure. That means it's 17 AC vs 13 Save. If your wisdom mod is 2 points lower than your DEX mod, however, that brings it to 15 vs 13. If you have a +1 magic weapon, that brings it to 14 vs 13. So yes, this one enemy is in fact one or two points easier to hit with a save than with AC for most monks. I'll give you that.


but hey, maybe it's super-rare, right? for the next contestant, i almost had to go 5 whole entries into the monster manual, for the animated object (in this case, the armour, and to a lesser extent the sword). then we have the ankheg (14 AC vs 0 dex save, dex save is probably easier to land),Nope. With DEX higher than WIS, it's easier to land the AC hit.


azer (AC 17, dex save +1)With DEX 2 mods higher than WIS, that's an equal chance of either. With a magic weapon, the AC is easier to hit.


because, i mean, surely if i didn't even have to go into the second letter of the alphabet to find several creatures that meet the criteria of much better AC than dex save, then that must be super-rare, right?No, you just don't know how to do the math.


i'm sure there aren't, say, beholders (and death tyrants), behirs, bugbear chiefs, and bulettes that start with the letter B and have much better AC than reflex saves, right?

Without a magic weapon, and with a DEX mod 2 higher than WIS mod...

Beholders: AC and saves are equally difficult to hit
Behir: AC is two points easier to hit
Bugbear Chief: AC is one point easier to hit
Bulette: Saves are one point easier to hit
Chuul: AC and Saves are equally difficult to hit
Death Knight: AC is two points easier to hit, and it has magic resistance
Demilich: AC is one point easier to hit
Balor: Saves are one point easier to hit, but it has magic resistance
Glabrezu: AC is one point easier to hit, and it has magic resistance
Goristro: AC is three points easier to hit, and it has magic resistance
Nalfeshnee: Saves are two points easier to hit, but it has magic resistance
Bone Devil: AC and Saves are equally difficult to hit, and it has magic resistance
Ice Devil: AC is five points easier to hit, and it has magic resistance
Pit Fiend: AC is five points easier to hit, and it has magic resistance
Ankylosaurus: AC is one point easier to hit
Ancient Black Dragon: AC is three points easier to hit
Ancient Gold Dragon: AC is three points easier to hit
Dragon Turtle: AC is one point easier to hit
Drider: AC and Saves are equally easy to hit
Duregar: AC and Saves are equally easy to hit

So out of all these examples, the only ones that were easier to hit with a DEX save than with AC and DIDN'T have Magic Resistance, were the Bulette by one point, and the Aboleth by 2 points. All the other examples were either equally difficult, or more difficult to hit with a DEX save than with an attack.


and needing to carry ammunition, or wanting to be able to use one of your main class features (martial arts) doesn't strike me as being particularly super-niche. nor is being able to get past resistances on ranged attacks. certainly it isn't 100% frequency, but super-niche? really? you've never been in a situation where you're fighting an opponent, want to use ranged attacks, and that opponent was resistant or immune to non-magical weapons? not even once? i'm *really* struggling with this claim that this is supposedly some sort of super-niche scenario that never shows up.The niche part is needing to use ranged attacks as a monk in the first place. For that to be the case, the target would need to be unreachable, in spite of the monk's speed and maneuverability bonuses.


furthermore, it's silly to claim that somehow a monk is giving up DPR to deal radiant damage with their reaction because they could use their reaction elsewhere to deal damage. unless by "monks" you mean "shadow monks only", that is, because while monks do have other potential uses for their reaction, as a rule dealing damage is not one of them; it might be theoretically possible to get an opportunity attack, but ime those don't come up that often. i suppose if they do, then the sun soul's ability to deal damage on a reaction loses some value (but still retains some value, because odds are good your monk isn't doing 10 damage on average from their reaction courtesy of not having a 100% hit rate and only dealing approximately 10 damage on a hit, generally speaking).By the time you get that ability, you could easily have an ability like Sentinel to be getting opportunity attacks much more regularly.


I have seen a spell-caster cast Hold Person on a monk trying to get past enemies and attack him before, 3 times actually, two times the monk died, the 3rd (chronologically the 2nd) time he made his save on the 2nd turn and barely got out alive. Needless to say, if you are facing off against intelligent enemies they have a high probability of being able to stop the monks hit and run game, if they don't have a spell-caster they can often just grapple the monk and then gang up on him.

P.S.Darn, slightly shadowmonk'd on my main point of enemies being capable of intelligence, but it still stands.

If you're caught with hold person, it doesn't matter which attacks you have at all, because you can't attack in the first place.


All those who consider ranged weapons useless for a monk because of their mobility need to consider a wizard behind a hydra or two with a low ceiling, as just one example. And please don't say "corner case" or "won't happen that often" - by definition, Wizards are intelligent foes, and they will have heard of monks, and a wizard who expects to confront the party (e.g., a BBEG or other recurring foe) will have multiple layers of defense against the monk's mobility. Difficult terrain, hordes of mooks, unclimbable walls, minions who can grapple the monk, et cetera.

Wizards are also not the only intelligent foes who will prepare for monks. Do you suppose that in a thousand-year lifespan a dragon might hear of these fast guys who can run up walls? Or a beholder?

The ability to have a powerful ranged attack doing radiant damage is not insignificant.As a Shadow monk, you'd just shadowstep to the Wizard. As an open hand monk, you'd just hit the Wizard's guards with Open Hand to prevent them from taking a reaction, and run straight past them. Or you could use Step of the Wind to jump past them or Disengage past them.

There's no such thing as an unclimbable wall. Monks can run straight up vertical slopes without even needing a climb check.

[SharkForce]

monks don't have ASIs to blow on sentinel. nor do they want to be the main target (returning damage when you're hit is only good because you're going to get hit whether you return damage or not; a monk should not be making themself into a target, they don't have the HP for it). nor do they want to be sitting next to an ally forming a front line. sentinel, in general, is a terrible idea for a monk. spectacularly bad, really.

not all games feature magic weapons. of those that do, the monk is probably last in line to get one, because why would you waste a magic weapon on a character that doesn't use any weapon at all for half their attacks?

your math on AC vs dex bonus appears to be based on the assumption that the save DC won't scale. monks already need wisdom, so it will scale, albeit perhaps slightly slower. however, many monks are built to have two 16s if they use point buy, so a 2 modifier difference is pretty much an absolute worst case scenario that may or may not ever happen. there's also the fact that burning hands still does damage on a successful save. while a missed attack does nothing whatsoever.

you don't need a 6 point difference for the save to be the superior option.

and you're claiming that needing to make ranged attacks is super-niche, but you're talking about monks that have maxed out dexterity but aren't increasing wisdom, and monks that picked up the sentinel feat when they're the most ASI-hungry class in the game and have several better options for feats?

seriously? does your DM have a hate-on for flying creatures or something? or perhaps just never has enemies that are hard to reach in general?

edit: almost forgot, the fighter with 63 damage on booming blade has me suspicious that you're doing something *really* screwy. you're dealing let's say 2d6 + 5 + 4d8 damage (booming blade makes the damage loss from power attacking not worth), that's an average of 30, and then an additional attack for 2d6 + 15 (average 22) damage. so 52, assuming 100% hit rate and no crits. now, granted crits will increase that a bit, but not by nearly as much as the miss rate is going to reduce damage. unless of course you're assuming the dragon is doing flyby attacks, in which case you don't get the bonus action attack and you probably can't use booming blade at all because the dragon has longer reach than your booming blade with every single attack, even if you *could* ready booming blade without giving up your precious concentration slot (and don't say warcaster, because the dragon has longer reach and doesn't provoke any AoE whether you have warcaster or not).

[MaxWilson]

huh. never actually noticed slings aren't loading. guess i've never noticed because i've never actually seen someone who can make multiple attacks per round actually use them in 5e. they kinda suck, and anyone who can't use a better weapon has better cantrips. except the monk, that is.

I've seen a Sharpshooter use them, because the ammo is cheap and Sharpshooter negates the downsides.

[Strill]

monks don't have ASIs to blow on sentinel.They do by level 17.


not all games feature magic weapons. of those that do, the monk is probably last in line to get one, because why would you waste a magic weapon on a character that doesn't use any weapon at all for half their attacks?Because there are magic weapons for unarmed attacks.


your math on AC vs dex bonus appears to be based on the assumption that the save DC won't scale. monks already need wisdom, so it will scale, albeit perhaps slightly slower. however, many monks are built to have two 16s if they use point buy, so a 2 modifier difference is pretty much an absolute worst case scenario that may or may not ever happen. there's also the fact that burning hands still does damage on a successful save. while a missed attack does nothing whatsoever.Save DC won't scale? What are you talking about? I'm assuming that the monk starts with 16s in DEX and WIS, and puts his first two ASIs into DEX. Level 8 is about right considering the monster's we've been going over right?


you don't need a 6 point difference for the save to be the superior option. Judging by the numbers, you're not going to get much of any difference in favor of saves.


and you're claiming that needing to make ranged attacks is super-niche, but you're talking about monks that have maxed out dexterity but aren't increasing wisdom, and monks that picked up the sentinel feat when they're the most ASI-hungry class in the game and have several better options for feats?Are you saying that a Sun Soul monk should prioritize WIS over DEX? Do you really honestly think that's a good plan? I thought burning hands was supposed to just be something you used situationally, but now you're saying that the player should build their character around it.

Sentinel is in the context of a level 17+ character.


seriously? does your DM have a hate-on for flying creatures or something? or perhaps just never has enemies that are hard to reach in general?Not when there's not already other more reachable enemies to fight.

[Shining Wrath]

... SNIP ...

As a Shadow monk, you'd just shadowstep to the Wizard. As an open hand monk, you'd just hit the Wizard's guards with Open Hand to prevent them from taking a reaction, and run straight past them. Or you could use Step of the Wind to jump past them or Disengage past them.

There's no such thing as an unclimbable wall. Monks can run straight up vertical slopes without even needing a climb check.

As a high level wizard who has heard of shadow monks and is prepared to fight this particular party, there are no shadows in this room and multiple magical light sources of level 4 and above illuminating every point in the room and adjacent rooms.

As a high level wizard who has heard of open hand monks and is prepared to fight this particular party, there's a double deep barrier of mooks from wall to wall and the ceiling is inches above their heads. The open hand monk can't pass through an occupied space. Same for Step of the Wind or Disengage.

If the DM says the wall is unclimbable, because a high-level wizard invested resources and time into making it unclimbable, then it is unclimbable. Maybe it has permanent Grease spells 250 layers deep - whatever you need to hear to imagine a wall that a monk can't run up. The PHB does not say that a monk can run up every wall in the multiverse, it says you can move along vertical surfaces and across liquids - impressive, but not immune to magic.

[MaxWilson]

All those who consider ranged weapons useless for a monk because of their mobility need to consider a wizard behind a hydra or two with a low ceiling, as just one example.

Now consider a wizard 40' behind a hydra or two with a low ceiling. Sun Bolts only work out to 30', which is extremely close range. Even if he is instead right behind the hydra, all he has to do is lie prone and he probably has half or three-quarters cover, plus disadvantage to attackers from prone, plus Shield and Mage Armor... Sun Bolts are practically useless against in this scenario, but wall-running and Shadow Jumping are still potentially useful. Too bad a Sun Soul is not a Shadow Monk.


As a high level wizard who has heard of shadow monks and is prepared to fight this particular party, there are no shadows in this room and multiple magical light sources of level 4 and above illuminating every point in the room and adjacent rooms.

As a high level wizard who has heard of open hand monks and is prepared to fight this particular party, there's a double deep barrier of mooks from wall to wall and the ceiling is inches above their heads. The open hand monk can't pass through an occupied space. Same for Step of the Wind or Disengage.

LOL. So he's specifically built his room with extensive precautions against Shadow Monks and Open Hand monks ("double deep barrier of mooks") because he "knows this particular party," but he's also built the room to be specifically vulnerable to 30' range Sun Bolts, because why? You're not helping to prove that Sun Soul monks aren't underpowered. :)

=============================================


edit: almost forgot, the fighter with 63 damage on booming blade has me suspicious that you're doing something *really* screwy. you're dealing let's say 2d6 + 5 + 4d8 damage (booming blade makes the damage loss from power attacking not worth), that's an average of 30, and then an additional attack for 2d6 + 15 (average 22) damage. so 52, assuming 100% hit rate and no crits. now, granted crits will increase that a bit, but not by nearly as much as the miss rate is going to reduce damage. unless of course you're assuming the dragon is doing flyby attacks, in which case you don't get the bonus action attack and you probably can't use booming blade at all because the dragon has longer reach than your booming blade with every single attack, even if you *could* ready booming blade without giving up your precious concentration slot (and don't say warcaster, because the dragon has longer reach and doesn't provoke any AoE whether you have warcaster or not).

Arcane Tricksters are not fighters.

The formula I used is: avg.11a?8d8+10d6+5 in my die roll calculator (http://maxwilson.github.io/RollWeb/Roll/). Translation: give the average when you need an 11 or better, at advantage, in order to deal 8d8+10d6+5 damage.

[SharkForce]

ok, so your 16/16 starting monk, by level 17, has all of 4 ASIs. that's just barely enough to max out dex and wisdom, with nothing into, say, constitution beyond starting value, and even less room for sentinel because what the hell would they need to be smoking to take sentinel over mobility, lucky, alert, skulker, tough, or probably a few other situational options (say, magic initiate for shillelagh, so that you can max wisdom over dex and not suffer as much).

and no, i'm not suggesting that sun soul monks in particular should max wisdom over dex. i'm suggesting that some monks may prefer wisdom over dex in general, and that some might prefer to balance the two (because yes, really, save DC IS that important for monks, and wisdom saves are more important than dex saves). but hey, so long as we're just handing out magic items like it's christmas, why can't a monk have a magic item that boosts wisdom?

(also, no there aren't items that boost unarmed strikes. there is *one* item, and it is not found in the DMG, but in an adventure that many people will never run, or read, or own, or use).

and a monk's job is not to hit the easy-to-reach enemies. your damage is not that good compared to a barbarian or fighter, and neither is your hit point pool. you don't have a large hit die, you either tend to have god-awful AC or you can't afford to pump your con as much as other front-liners, and you don't have any abilities that allow you to reduce damage from regular attacks (until level 18, but even then you're no barbarian).

your job is to hit the hard-to-reach guys in the back. that's what you do well. if you just want to stand on the front lines and be a wall, then for the love of all that is holy don't blame the monk subclasses for your bad decisions, you should've chosen a class that has the tools for the job.

[weaseldust]

It's a very handy archetype if you want to make a low dex, high wis Monk. E.g. the old sage from the monastery who's too arthritic to throw punches any more but still knows a lot about channeling ki.

You can also get some absurd kiting going with it. And you can avoid facing attacks of opportunity (which are actually quite dangerous for Monks) without having to spend an ASI on Mobile.

[SharkForce]

Arcane Tricksters are not fighters.

The formula I used is: avg.11a?8d8+10d6+5 in my die roll calculator (http://maxwilson.github.io/RollWeb/Roll/). Translation: give the average when you need an 11 or better, at advantage, in order to deal 8d8+10d6+5 damage.

ok, so your arcane trickster just always has advantage, always manages to be within 5 feet of the dragon, but also somehow manages to persuade the dragon to move after letting you get right up next to it.. yeah, that's an interesting set of assumptions. how are you pulling that off against an intelligent flying creature with greater reach than you again?

[AbyssStalker]

If you're caught with hold person, it doesn't matter which attacks you have at all, because you can't attack in the first place.


It isn't about getting caught by it, it is where you get caught by it. Did you get caught by a spellcaster who had readied it to cast just as you closed in? Or did you get hold person'd while you were at a distance, and likely alongside your party. The standard hit and run monk tactics leave you real vulnerable to the prior (actually, any enemy that can grapple you can do that, so if that spell-caster has competent guards, you're screwed. You said the only real reason that the monk should only be using ranged tactics is when dealing with flying enemies, but that is just not the case in many situations.

[SharkForce]

oh, and for the wizard behind hydras in a tunnel... the monk hopefully has mobile, flurries, punches one of the hydras on the way in, continues past (he's small enough to share space with the hydra) and needs to cover 30 feet less in both directions to get back out without taking a single opportunity attack from the hydra because he can make an attack from a much greater distance, and can much more easily fall back behind his own front line. of course, if the wizard is considerate enough to lie down right behind the hydras, *any* monk with mobile can do that as well.

alternately, the shadow monk can indeed teleport past and engage the wizard in melee. but then there is nothing between him and the hydras, which is not particularly ideal.

[MaxWilson]

ok, so your arcane trickster just always has advantage, always manages to be within 5 feet of the dragon, but also somehow manages to persuade the dragon to move after letting you get right up next to it.. yeah, that's an interesting set of assumptions. how are you pulling that off against an intelligent flying creature with greater reach than you again?

Same way you're getting Sun Shield to affect the dragon instead of it just killing you to death with its breath weapon: simplistic assumptions. I.e. I'm just assuming the fight happens in a context like the dragon's treasure hoard where Cunning Action: Hide is always possible (Stealth +17 with Reliable Talent will always beat the dragon's Passive Perception 26), and you're assuming that the fight happens in a context where the dragon can't just freely bombard every time its breath weapon recharges, because if it were otherwise, the PCs would be running away instead of fighting.

[SharkForce]

Same way you're getting Sun Shield to affect the dragon instead of it just killing you to death with its breath weapon: simplistic assumptions. I.e. I'm just assuming the fight happens in a context like the dragon's treasure hoard where Cunning Action: Hide is always possible (Stealth +17 with Reliable Talent will always beat the dragon's Passive Perception 26), and you're assuming that the fight happens in a context where the dragon can't just freely bombard every time its breath weapon recharges, because if it were otherwise, the PCs would be running away instead of fighting.

the dragon can fly. it can reach further than your melee attack, or your cantrip. it has blindsight, so many forms of cover or concealment do nothing (in particular, just about all of the ones that could let you get close enough to a flying enemy), and has AoE attacks that do not rely on seeing a target, just having a general idea of location is enough.

you can probably pull off ranged sneak attack with advantage. you aren't realstically pulling off a melee attack within 5 feet with advantage, which is what you need if you're going to use booming blade.

you also are not immune to the dragon's perception, just it's passive perception... given the dragon in question has lair and legendary actions, it is entirely possible for the dragon to simply keep looking until it finds you. it does not need to do strafing runs (though it certainly could, potentially), it just needs enough room to fly around and use regular melee attacks or wing attacks (or possibly certain lair actions).

[MaxWilson]

the dragon can fly. it can reach further than your melee attack, or your cantrip. it has blindsight, so many forms of cover or concealment do nothing (in particular, just about all of the ones that could let you get close enough to a flying enemy), and has AoE attacks that do not rely on seeing a target, just having a general idea of location is enough.

you can probably pull off ranged sneak attack with advantage. you aren't realstically pulling off a melee attack within 5 feet with advantage, which is what you need if you're going to use booming blade.

you also are not immune to the dragon's perception, just it's passive perception... given the dragon in question has lair and legendary actions, it is entirely possible for the dragon to simply keep looking until it finds you. it does not need to do strafing runs (though it certainly could, potentially), it just needs enough room to fly around and use regular melee attacks or wing attacks (or possibly certain lair actions).

And the same factors lead to Sun Shield not being a flat +10 DPR: the dragon may not be hitting you this turn. It may be strafing you from the air, or stalking you around its lair to get a surprise round (no reaction = no Sun Shield), or attacking other PCs, or dropping boulders.

So what? What are you trying to prove? Sun Shield is still trash.

[SharkForce]

"you got hit" is a lot more likely than "you managed to sneak up on a very perceptive creature with no cover and no concealment, get a melee attack at advantage, and the creature then decided to move afterwards instead of just killing you".

neither is truly 100% guaranteed, but one is much more likely to happen on a regular basis.

[MaxWilson]

"you got hit" is a lot more likely than "you managed to sneak up on a very perceptive creature with no cover and no concealment, get a melee attack at advantage, and the creature then decided to move afterwards instead of just killing you".

neither is truly 100% guaranteed, but one is much more likely to happen on a regular basis.

I call shenanigans. You're assuming a "favorable" situation for the monk (to whatever extent taking a 100 HP attack sequence from an ancient dragon for the sake of inflicting 10 points of damage can be considered "favorable") while assuming the worst of all worlds for a rogue: no cover, no concealment, dragon has nothing better to do with its legendary action than make Perception checks (this assumption is especially dubious in combat--usually it should be making wing beats or tail attacks), no Mobile feat for rogue (why?), rogue is using his Cunning Action in the wrong order (why?), Arcane Trickster is not flying (why?).

None of this changes the fact that Sun Shield is trash. And it is even worse in the dark because now all your enemies (hobgoblins, etc.) have advantage to hit you from long range.

[Strill]

It isn't about getting caught by it, it is where you get caught by it. Did you get caught by a spellcaster who had readied it to cast just as you closed in? Or did you get hold person'd while you were at a distance, and likely alongside your party. The standard hit and run monk tactics leave you real vulnerable to the prior (actually, any enemy that can grapple you can do that, so if that spell-caster has competent guards, you're screwed. You said the only real reason that the monk should only be using ranged tactics is when dealing with flying enemies, but that is just not the case in many situations.

Standard hit-and-run monk tactics involve stunning the spellcaster, which you can't do at range anyway.

[Mr.Moron]

What if you just kinda want to be a guy who shoots sun, out of his soul?

The problem is perfect parity between all options is a tall order even for big design teams. See WoW. Probably the biggest mechanical RPG system ever, with tons of employees millions of players and they still could never nail balance just right. It's a complex system and if your lens for judging things is a "DPR IN" VS "DPR OUT" lens of course somethings are going to seem "Terrible". If you've got a series of mutually exclusive options only one can be at the top or in 2nd place or 3rd place. Congrats? I guess. On being able to do some basic algebraic equations to figure out out that this particular option is numerically inferior to another option.

I mean really achieving parity is somewhere between impossible and grossly inefficient. The only relevant question is "Does the game work with these option(s)?" anything else is missing the point. I think Sun Soul monk is mostly functional, maybe not optimal but the again by definition only one thing can be.

[MaxWilson]

What if you just kinda want to be a guy who shoots sun, out of his soul?

Then go ahead and play one. Just because Sun Shield is terrible doesn't mean you can't have fun playing a laser monk. I'm going to quote Steve Brust here on writing:


“The Cool Stuff Theory of Literature is as follows: All literature consists of whatever the writer thinks is cool. The reader will like the book to the degree that he agrees with the writer about what's cool. And that works all the way from the external trappings to the level of metaphor, subtext, and the way one uses words. In other words, I happen not to think that full-plate armor and great big honking greatswords are cool. I don't like 'em. I like cloaks and rapiers. So I write stories with a lot of cloaks and rapiers in 'em, 'cause that's cool. Guys who like military hardware, who think advanced military hardware is cool, are not gonna jump all over my books, because they have other ideas about what's cool.

The novel should be understood as a structure built to accommodate the greatest possible amount of cool stuff.”

The same thing could be said of an RPG. If you think laser monks are cooler than multiclassed Fighter/Abjurors in plate mail, play a laser monk.

[Strill]

What if you just kinda want to be a guy who shoots sun, out of his soul?

The problem is perfect parity between all options is a tall order even for big design teams. See WoW. Probably the biggest mechanical RPG system ever, with tons of employees millions of players and they still could never nail balance just right. It's a complex system and if your lens for judging things is a "DPR IN" VS "DPR OUT" lens of course somethings are going to seem "Terrible". If you've got a series of mutually exclusive options only one can be at the top or in 2nd place or 3rd place. Congrats? I guess. On being able to do some basic algebraic equations to figure out out that this particular option is numerically inferior to another option.

I mean really achieving parity is somewhere between impossible and grossly inefficient. The only relevant question is "Does the game work with these option(s)?" anything else is missing the point. I think Sun Soul monk is mostly functional, maybe not optimal but the again by definition only one thing can be.
My lens is not DPR in vs DPR out. If it were, shadow monks would be crap. A large portion of their value is the ability to teleport all over the place as often as they like, and hide exceptionally well. Teleporting in combat is actually a damage loss compared to just using Martial Arts, in spite of the fact that it gives you advantage.

I'm rating Sun Soul on DPR, however, because that's all it does. Its abilities aren't useful for anything out of combat.

[Shining Wrath]

Now consider a wizard 40' behind a hydra or two with a low ceiling. Sun Bolts only work out to 30', which is extremely close range. Even if he is instead right behind the hydra, all he has to do is lie prone and he probably has half or three-quarters cover, plus disadvantage to attackers from prone, plus Shield and Mage Armor... Sun Bolts are practically useless against in this scenario, but wall-running and Shadow Jumping are still potentially useful. Too bad a Sun Soul is not a Shadow Monk.



LOL. So he's specifically built his room with extensive precautions against Shadow Monks and Open Hand monks ("double deep barrier of mooks") because he "knows this particular party," but he's also built the room to be specifically vulnerable to 30' range Sun Bolts, because why? You're not helping to prove that Sun Soul monks aren't underpowered. :)

=============================================



Arcane Tricksters are not fighters.

The formula I used is: avg.11a?8d8+10d6+5 in my die roll calculator (http://maxwilson.github.io/RollWeb/Roll/). Translation: give the average when you need an 11 or better, at advantage, in order to deal 8d8+10d6+5 damage.

LOL he's a genius fighting for his life against a group he knows includes a Shadow Monk you damn well bet he's prepared to shut down that trick and other abilities of other party members. It's a little harder to take away a Paladin's aura but Shadow walk is simply not working against ANY intelligent foe who has EVER considered the possibility of Shadow Monks or people who want to hide (Rogues, Rangers) or Warlocks who want to use Devil's Sight in Darkness. In fact a permanent magical light spell (exactly where do driftglobes come from, anyway?) is something anyone who wants to defend any fixed location is going to have in their spell book - and remember, the PHB only lists some of the more common spells, there's lots of spells that aren't in there and that obviously includes "any spell a DM finds convenient for his story". Since there are lots of foes that might prefer darkness, a bad guy spell caster can and will have the ability to turn on the lights and keep them on.

[WickerNipple]

The same thing could be said of an RPG. If you think laser monks are cooler than multiclassed Fighter/Abjurors in plate mail, play a laser monk.

I would just like to break in here and say that Fighter/Abjurors in plate mail are frikken awesome.

Y'all can continue.

[SharkForce]

I call shenanigans. You're assuming a "favorable" situation for the monk (to whatever extent taking a 100 HP attack sequence from an ancient dragon for the sake of inflicting 10 points of damage can be considered "favorable") while assuming the worst of all worlds for a rogue: no cover, no concealment, dragon has nothing better to do with its legendary action than make Perception checks (this assumption is especially dubious in combat--usually it should be making wing beats or tail attacks), no Mobile feat for rogue (why?), rogue is using his Cunning Action in the wrong order (why?), Arcane Trickster is not flying (why?).

None of this changes the fact that Sun Shield is trash. And it is even worse in the dark because now all your enemies (hobgoblins, etc.) have advantage to hit you from long range.

the "favorable" situation is that the monk got hit at least once sometime in the round in a game that greatly favours offense. AC is carefully balanced to be nigh-impossible to get to a point where even the lowest level enemies really struggle to hit you. a typical (no magic items) max AC monk will have 20 AC at most, which means even CR 1/4 enemies will generally hit 15% of the time, and high CR enemies will generally land close to 50% of their attacks, and that doesn't generally change no matter what class you are (rare exceptions, such as a max dex/max int bladesinger, do exist however, but even those exceptions generally take quite a while to come online). realstically, if you are fighting a reasonable challenge, you are probably going to get hit, and it probably isn't going to be just once, regardless of what you do, unless the enemy is for some reason not trying to hit you.

the "worst of all worlds" for the rogue is against an enemy that you chose using the abilities said enemy had in an intelligent manner. the dragon has no reason to ever be adjacent to the rogue (or anyone else, really) in combat. it has a reach of 10 feet or more on every attack it has. while flying, it is in a situation where there is no cover or concealment that its blindsight can't see right through, and therefore the rogue is never realistically going to get a melee range sneak attack off on the dragon, because any time the rogue moves within melee range of the dragon the rogue is leaving cover (relative to the dragon's blindsight), and in 5e you can't hide behind nothing. it was your choice of enemy, not mine, so don't complain to me when your assumptions don't work on the monster you chose to use as an example.

the scenario you presented was further just a dragon and a rogue. if the rogue is just going to sit there and hide and wait for the dragon to land, then the rogue is going to get what the rogue deserves after letting the rest of the party die while waiting for the dragon to land right next to the rogue. if the rogue wants to attack, it can... by making a ranged attack (which will probably be a sneak attack, as you mentioned the rogue can generally hide from the dragon if there is a hiding place available), same as everyone else is going to be stuck doing in that situation, because the dragon has no more reason to let a fighter or a barbarian or a paladin get within 5 feet either. but that rogue is also not going to be doing 63 damage per round under those conditions. it will probably still do a bit better than a typical monk (because rogues are generally better damage dealers than monks), and it may very well do more in that situation than a typical melee fighter or barbarian even if the rogue is also set up to be a melee rogue, but not 63 damage per round on average.

edit:
My lens is not DPR in vs DPR out. If it were, shadow monks would be crap. A large portion of their value is the ability to teleport all over the place as often as they like, and hide exceptionally well. Teleporting in combat is actually a damage loss compared to just using Martial Arts, in spite of the fact that it gives you advantage.

I'm rating Sun Soul on DPR, however, because that's all it does. Its abilities aren't useful for anything out of combat.

sun soul is an archetype, which should not be considered outside of the base monk chassis. all monks are mobile, with or without shadow walk. all monks are stealthy, whether they can cast pass without trace, silence, and darkness or not. shadow monks are *more* mobile, and *more* stealthy than other monks. but their extra abilities do not negate the basic features of all monks, which include high move speed, the ability to dash or disengage as a bonus action, the ability to run on walls, the ability to make impressive acrobatic leaps, generally excellent perceptive abilities, generally the ability to reliably make saves against most immobilizing spells and many immobilizing attacks, etc.

so no, the sun soul is not "only" DPR. because the sun soul still enjoys all of the things common to all monks, and those things make them still a mobile attacker and scout. you may as well argue that the bladesinger is somehow not a spellcaster because the bladesinger archetype doesn't change how they cast spells as argue that the sun soul is a pure DPR character just because the archetype only modifies how you do damage.

[bid]

The point that has been lost here is that there are no opportunity cost of using a sling. And with 2d4+6 = 11, you do more damage than the 3d6? of radiant sun bolt. And since we've established that a save has a +4 compared to AC, we're more likely to hit too.

Let the casters handle the oh-so-rare case where we're shut down and just carry a sling.

[MaxWilson]

the "favorable" situation is that the monk got hit at least once sometime in the round in a game that greatly favours offense. AC is carefully balanced to be nigh-impossible to get to a point where even the lowest level enemies really struggle to hit you. a typical (no magic items) max AC monk will have 20 AC at most, which means even CR 1/4 enemies will generally hit 15% of the time, and high CR enemies will generally land close to 50% of their attacks, and that doesn't generally change no matter what class you are (rare exceptions, such as a max dex/max int bladesinger, do exist however, but even those exceptions generally take quite a while to come online). realstically, if you are fighting a reasonable challenge, you are probably going to get hit, and it probably isn't going to be just once, regardless of what you do, unless the enemy is for some reason not trying to hit you.

It's not about AC. An ancient dragon going after a target isn't going to spread damage around the party evenly, hitting the monk each round just so Sun Shield can trigger. He's just going to kill one target at a time, except when he's breathing on everyone. Sun Shield might be worth 20 damage at most over the course of the whole fight, as the dragon kills the monk to death, and that's assuming that it does it in melee instead of with breath weapons.

You're mistaken about defense BTW. The aforementioned Fighter/Abjuror, for example, can put up Foresight/Blink/Shield and take minimal damage per round from even high-CR foes. An adult red would land 20% of its attacks half the time (Blink makes the fighter immune to attack the other half the time). An ancient red will land 36% of its attacks. Foresight comes online late, but starting at early as 4th level the Fighter/Abjuror can put up Blur which has basically the same effect. Even a low-level Paladorc can hit AC 23 (28 with Shield) and then grapple/prone mid-CR enemies (grapple/Dodge works too) to hold them still while everyone else kills them with ranged attacks. 5E characters can be extraordinarily tanky with minimal investment, thanks to Bounded Accuracy on the monsters. If you think 5E is offense-heavy, that's a function of your playstyle, not the rules.


LOL he's a genius fighting for his life against a group he knows includes a Shadow Monk you ---- well bet he's prepared to shut down that trick and other abilities of other party members. It's a little harder to take away a Paladin's aura but Shadow walk is simply not working against ANY intelligent foe who has EVER considered the possibility of Shadow Monks or people who want to hide (Rogues, Rangers) or Warlocks who want to use Devil's Sight in Darkness. In fact a permanent magical light spell (exactly where do driftglobes come from, anyway?) is something anyone who wants to defend any fixed location is going to have in their spell book - and remember, the PHB only lists some of the more common spells, there's lots of spells that aren't in there and that obviously includes "any spell a DM finds convenient for his story". Since there are lots of foes that might prefer darkness, a bad guy spell caster can and will have the ability to turn on the lights and keep them on.

The part that made me laugh was that the Sun Soul monk is the only one he doesn't bother to defend himself against.

BTW counteracting a paladin's aura probably involves either strong minions with grappling capabilities (or the equivalent, such as Ropers' Reel), or AoE spells like Meteor Swarm which encourage the party to disperse, or a Wall of Force spell in a narrow passage between the paladin and the lead PC. Speaking of narrow passages, the wizard ought to force the party through a normal-sized 3' hallway, which will give all of his hobgoblin mercs on the elevated platform behind the hydra advantage to shoot them (because it's not 5' across) and gives them disadvantage to hit the hydra lurking just outside. If you have an evil wizard who knows the party intimately, there are all kinds of things he can do to be nasty, and most of them don't even cost spell slots.

Oh, and illusions are also good. Permanent Major Images and Programmed Illusions, so they don't know which is the real evil wizard and which is the real hydra.

[E’Tallitnics]

My lens is not DPR in vs DPR out. If it were, shadow monks would be crap. A large portion of their value is the ability to teleport all over the place as often as they like, and hide exceptionally well. Teleporting in combat is actually a damage loss compared to just using Martial Arts, in spite of the fact that it gives you advantage.

I'm rating Sun Soul on DPR, however, because that's all it does. Its abilities aren't useful for anything out of combat.

As an aside: An adventurer with the Control Flames cantrip and a torch can stop a Shadow Monk at 120' out. You'd need to be at least 18th level to even reach the 1st level torch bearer and still have your Action available. So much for, "the ability to teleport all over the place as often as they like."

An adventurer with the Spell Sniper feat just increased their Sun Bolt range to 60', while ignoring any cover but Total. It's not a spell and therefore cannot be Counterspelled, nor is it a ranged weapon attack so other Monks can Deflect Missiles against it.

Searing Arc (aka Burning Hands) sets stuff on fire, for area control/mayhem. It's also a Bonus Action casting that starts with your Attack Action, for better Action Economy.

Searing Sunburst is a Fireball-like AoE that doesn't go around corners, but does go through Total cover that's not opaque. It uses the Attack Action, not Cast a Spell, so you don't cast it so it also cannot be Counterspelled. It's a CON Save, not DEX to boot.

If you look at the overall Action Economy that a Sun Soul has with these subclass features, plus the standard Monk class features, they bring a lot to the table. Even more so when they multiclass! Especially since the 17th level feature is rather Meh.

Sun Bolt w/ Spell Sniper + Distant Metamagic is 120'.
Searing Sunburst w/ Action Surge + 6 Ki is 2 Fireballs during 1 Turn, and no one else can do that!

Sun Soul may not be for you, but it is by no means a choice as dire/useless as you seem to think.

[MaxWilson]

As an aside: An adventurer with the Control Flames cantrip and a torch can stop a Shadow Monk at 120' out. You'd need to be at least 18th level to even reach the 1st level torch bearer and still have your Action available. So much for, "the ability to teleport all over the place as often as they like."

Aside RE: your aside,

Torch = 20' bright light, 20' dim. Control Flames can double the radius of bright light. How do you get 120'? Are you stacking Control Flames with itself?


Searing Sunburst is a Fireball-like AoE that doesn't go around corners, but does go through Total cover that's not opaque.

Heh. Good for killing people who live in glass houses, right? Better than a brick, anyway.

[E’Tallitnics]

Aside RE: your aside,

Torch = 20' bright light, 20' dim. Control Flames can double the radius of bright light. How do you get 120'? Are you stacking Control Flames with itself?

Heh. Good for killing people who live in glass houses, right? Better than a brick, anyway.

"If you cast this spell multiple times, you can have up to three of its non-instantaneous effects active at a time, and you can dismiss such an effect as an action."

Doubling brightness is a non-instaneous effect.

RE: Glass Houses. Or any number of effects that rely on Force.

[MaxWilson]

"If you cast this spell multiple times, you can have up to three of its non-instantaneous effects active at a time, and you can dismiss such an effect as an action."

Doubling brightness is a non-instaneous effect.

Aside from the questionable legality of stacking--wouldn't that give you 160' of bright light, not 120'?

[E’Tallitnics]

Aside from the questionable legality of stacking--wouldn't that give you 160' of bright light, not 120'?

PH, "Combining Magical Effects", p. 205:
"The effects of different spells add together while
the durations of those spells overlap. The effects of
the same spell cast multiple times don't combine, however.

Dammit. Yes!

[rlc]

The worst part is that you need to power up for three episodes before you use a single move.

[ryan92084]

The worst part is that you need to power up for three episodes before you use a single move.

All the screaming is likely to annoy the rest of your party as well.

[AbyssStalker]

The worst part is that you need to power up for three episodes before you use a single move.

On the bright side, the actual combat is done in less than 10 rounds, since talking is a free action. Weaker characters might get 2-3, and Captain Worf Fang Fist will only get one (he might actually die on his opening turn or before it to be honest).

[Submortimer]

What do you get from Sun Bolt that you didn't from a ranged weapon?


The ability to make 4 ranged attacks a round, which is a pretty substantial difference. Even if your ranged weapons are monk weapons, at most you can throw two of them in a turn, since Flurry of Blows only let's you hit with unarmed strikes, not monk weapons.

As for the capstone...yeah its lackluster. Probably should have been a big "Kamehameha" radiant laser beam.

[Strill]

As an aside: An adventurer with the Control Flames cantrip and a torch can stop a Shadow Monk at 120' out. You'd need to be at least 18th level to even reach the 1st level torch bearer and still have your Action available. So much for, "the ability to teleport all over the place as often as they like."I meant more out of combat than in-combat, but realistically combat at those ranges doesn't happen, and in the unlikely case that it does, you can just run from cover to cover until you reach your target.


An adventurer with the Spell Sniper feat just increased their Sun Bolt range to 60', while ignoring any cover but Total. It's not a spell and therefore cannot be Counterspelled, nor is it a ranged weapon attack so other Monks can Deflect Missiles against it. Why would you even want to counterspell a sun bolt? That sounds like a tremendous waste.


Searing Arc (aka Burning Hands) sets stuff on fire, for area control/mayhem. It's also a Bonus Action casting that starts with your Attack Action, for better Action Economy.

Searing Sunburst is a Fireball-like AoE that doesn't go around corners, but does go through Total cover that's not opaque. It uses the Attack Action, not Cast a Spell, so you don't cast it so it also cannot be Counterspelled. It's a CON Save, not DEX to boot.

If you look at the overall Action Economy that a Sun Soul has with these subclass features, plus the standard Monk class features, they bring a lot to the table. Even more so when they multiclass! Especially since the 17th level feature is rather Meh.

Sun Bolt w/ Spell Sniper + Distant Metamagic is 120'.
Searing Sunburst w/ Action Surge + 6 Ki is 2 Fireballs during 1 Turn, and no one else can do that!

Sun Soul may not be for you, but it is by no means a choice as dire/useless as you seem to think.

None of these evaluations are meaingful on their own because you're not considering the opportunity costs. Yes Searing Arc is a bonus action for better action economy, but monks already had two bonus-action attacks. How much better is it than what they already had?


The ability to make 4 ranged attacks a round, which is a pretty substantial difference. Even if your ranged weapons are monk weapons, at most you can throw two of them in a turn, since Flurry of Blows only let's you hit with unarmed strikes, not monk weapons.

But what kind of situation is that? You're saying that it's good in situations where there are NO enemies within your movement range +5, but there ARE enemies within your movement range +30. That sounds incredibly specific to me.


sun soul is an archetype, which should not be considered outside of the base monk chassis. all monks are mobile, with or without shadow walk. all monks are stealthy, whether they can cast pass without trace, silence, and darkness or not. shadow monks are *more* mobile, and *more* stealthy than other monks. but their extra abilities do not negate the basic features of all monks, which include high move speed, the ability to dash or disengage as a bonus action, the ability to run on walls, the ability to make impressive acrobatic leaps, generally excellent perceptive abilities, generally the ability to reliably make saves against most immobilizing spells and many immobilizing attacks, etc.

so no, the sun soul is not "only" DPR. because the sun soul still enjoys all of the things common to all monks, and those things make them still a mobile attacker and scout. you may as well argue that the bladesinger is somehow not a spellcaster because the bladesinger archetype doesn't change how they cast spells as argue that the sun soul is a pure DPR character just because the archetype only modifies how you do damage.

That doesn't particularly matter because by choosing the Sun Soul monk, you're suffering the opportunity cost of the best alternative monk archetype. Therefore you compare the Sun Soul monk's features to the things you're giving up in order to use them.

[MaxWilson]

But what kind of situation is that? You're saying that it's good in situations where there are NO enemies within your movement range, but there ARE enemies within your movement range +25. That sounds incredibly specific to me.

A ranged attack at 30' is actually saving you 50' of movement relative to a melee attack if you are trying to kite instead of tank. It's really short-ranged by ranged combat standards but compared to an unarmed melee attack it is quite good. If it unambiguously benefitted from Extra Attack it would be even more kinda-decent.

[Strill]

A ranged attack at 30' is actually saving you 50' of movement relative to a melee attack if you are trying to kite instead of tank. It's really short-ranged by ranged combat standards but compared to an unarmed melee attack it is quite good. If it unambiguously benefitted from Extra Attack it would be even more kinda-decent.Are you really honestly saying that you've kited enemies before in your games?

Also, if it DOESN'T benefit from Extra Attack, it's complete and total garbage.

[MaxWilson]

Are you really honestly saying that you've kited enemies before in your games?

Yes, of course. Why is this mind-boggling?

[Strill]

Yes, of course. Why is this mind-boggling?

Because D&D is not an MMO, and the idea that someone would keep following you under those circumstances is ridiculous.

[SharkForce]

It's not about AC. An ancient dragon going after a target isn't going to spread damage around the party evenly, hitting the monk each round just so Sun Shield can trigger. He's just going to kill one target at a time, except when he's breathing on everyone. Sun Shield might be worth 20 damage at most over the course of the whole fight, as the dragon kills the monk to death, and that's assuming that it does it in melee instead of with breath weapons.

You're mistaken about defense BTW. The aforementioned Fighter/Abjuror, for example, can put up Foresight/Blink/Shield and take minimal damage per round from even high-CR foes. An adult red would land 20% of its attacks half the time (Blink makes the fighter immune to attack the other half the time). An ancient red will land 36% of its attacks. Foresight comes online late, but starting at early as 4th level the Fighter/Abjuror can put up Blur which has basically the same effect. Even a low-level Paladorc can hit AC 23 (28 with Shield) and then grapple/prone mid-CR enemies (grapple/Dodge works too) to hold them still while everyone else kills them with ranged attacks. 5E characters can be extraordinarily tanky with minimal investment, thanks to Bounded Accuracy on the monsters. If you think 5E is offense-heavy, that's a function of your playstyle, not the rules.


*shrug* generally speaking, i don't expect to see a lot of fights where it is only a single monster. that said, again the scenario presented was single monster, single PC. if there is only a monk, then the dragon is going to hit the monk most every round.

as to defense, most of those seem like a fairly effective way of stopping *one* monster from hitting you. but until you're talking about silly things like level 18 wizards, you're burning resources for temporary defense increases every time you use spells, and some of those spells can be disrupted relatively easily any time oan attack does manage to get through. and the grapple trick never really works on more than two targets. nor does it work on larger targets.

i suppose if all you fight are individual relatively small monsters and you never fight so many times that you run out of resources (not sure how you're pulling off having a hand free between using a shield, grappling an enemy, and casting a spell on a low-level paladin/sorcerer multiclass, but whatever), then you can have pretty good defense. mostly though, you're going to get hit sometimes.

edit:
Because D&D is not an MMO, and the idea that someone would keep following you under those circumstances is ridiculous.

the thing is, they can't run from you either most likely. if they run, you just go near enough to make a ranged attack, then step back out of range. when you are faster and have the range advantage, you can essentially kite them, whether by following them as they try to escape, or by making them follow you.

[Strill]

the thing is, they can't run from you either most likely. if they run, you just go near enough to make a ranged attack, then step back out of range. when you are faster and have the range advantage, you can essentially kite them, whether by following them as they try to escape, or by making them follow you.That's why they should end their turn in cover whenever possible, and retreat to a location with close-quarters.

[MaxWilson]

Because D&D is not an MMO, and the idea that someone would keep following you under those circumstances is ridiculous.

That's why it's nice to have a long-ranged attack, so it doesn't matter if they follow you.

Besides, it still counts as kiting if they switch to someone else, like the AC 21 (26) Paladorc. Either way, it is useful for the monk now to wind up in melee range of a monster.

What's really ridiculous in 5E is how some DMs run enemies as willing to die messily if and only if they have the chance to cause a few HP of damage to the PCs. I.e. enemies should run away much more readily than they often do, and should only attack when they outnumber the PCs by 2:1 or even more.


That's why they should end their turn in cover whenever possible, and retreat to a location with close-quarters.

Given that I often play with Mobile Shadow Monks, I would love it if kiting forced an enemy to hide behind cover. Then I can just turn on Pass Without Trace and go all Batman on them, picking them off one at a time from stealth. (Monks don't get a Cunning Action: Hide, but so what? Just use your regular action.)

That's why it's important to build a balanced party with built-in tactical versatility.

=============================================


*shrug* generally speaking, i don't expect to see a lot of fights where it is only a single monster. that said, again the scenario presented was single monster, single PC. if there is only a monk, then the dragon is going to hit the monk most every round.

The scenario initially presented was hordes of monsters, Shadows and Mind Flayers. You objected to that as somehow unrealistic for 20th level characters, so I assumed you wanted to talk about solo monsters like dragons against a PC group. 4 Mind Flayers are a Medium challenge for a 20th level group, so the prior DPR analysis still holds in that case: about 100 HP of at-will damage from our GWM/PM/MC fighter, far more than the putative 45-50 ceiling.

There was never any case where "one rogue vs. one ancient dragon" was ever floated as a scenario. Not by me, anyway.


i suppose if all you fight are individual relatively small monsters and you never fight so many times that you run out of resources (not sure how you're pulling off having a hand free between using a shield, grappling an enemy, and casting a spell on a low-level paladin/sorcerer multiclass, but whatever), then you can have pretty good defense. mostly though, you're going to get hit sometimes.

Warcaster, obviously. Being able to Shield while grappling is one of the feat's primary benefits, and that plus SCAG cantrips are the key things that changed my evaluation of Warcaster from "meh" to "pretty good."*

Grapple/Dodge is a way to cheaply win small fights so you can save your actual crowd-control resources (Evard's Black Tentacles, etc.) for fights that matter. You can find lots of quotes from me saying that any fight under Deadly doesn't really cost the party any resources at all, and this is why.

-Max

* You have to be careful with Shield, because Aura of Vitality is frequently a more efficient use of spell points than just automatically Shielding against everything--though from an RP perspective, spending 10 spell points to block a total of 70 HP of damage is more pleasant and less painful than spending 5 spell points to heal 70 HP after getting stabbed, bitten, and partially ingested.

In games without spell points, Shield will be more limited and you should lean even more on Aura of Vitality.

[RulesJD]

Here's why the class is pointless:

Monks already benefit TREMENDOUSLY from a level dip into Warlock or taking Magic Initiate (Hex). With that simple addition your monk now has a better ranged attack (Eldritch Blast) for significantly cheaper cost. Hell you even get a short rest rechargable burning hands if you want. An entire class mechanic is overwhelmed by a 1 level dip/feat.

[WickerNipple]

What's really ridiculous in 5E is how some DMs run enemies as willing to die messily if and only if they have the chance to cause a few HP of damage to the PCs.

That's not really a 5e problem, but a DM problem that goes back to the dawn of time. I've seen NPCs-As-Attrition since 1e.

[MaxWilson]

Here's why the class is pointless:

Monks already benefit TREMENDOUSLY from a level dip into Warlock or taking Magic Initiate (Hex). With that simple addition your monk now has a better ranged attack (Eldritch Blast) for significantly cheaper cost. Hell you even get a short rest rechargable burning hands if you want. An entire class mechanic is overwhelmed by a 1 level dip/feat.

Monks are already MAD. How is adding a CHA dependency cheap?

[ryan92084]

...snip
Also, if it DOESN'T benefit from Extra Attack, it's complete and total garbage.

I must have missed this one, what is the argument for sun bolt not benefitting from Extra Attack?

[Natasha]

Wood Elves are a popular monk base, and a Wood Elf monk is basically the only type of elf which actually benefits from elven weapon proficiencies. Elf bladesingers can benefit from bows for a good long time. Just saying.

[RulesJD]

Monks are already MAD. How is adding a CHA dependency cheap?

8 Str, 16 Dex, 13 (14 as VH) Con, 14 Wis, 8 Int, 14 Cha.

You'll likely want to grab Resiliency (Con) on a Monk anyways unless you plan on going super high level (rarely a campaign consideration). If you do as a variant human, you can have solid starting stats.

2 level dip into monk = Infinite +8 temp HP (false life invocation) to make up for the reduced from 16 AND +4 temp HP per kill after the False Life invocation wears off. You end up with WAY more health as a dipped Warlock than a straight Monk with 16 con.

You then get 1d10+2 that autolevels and takes zero Ki (which should be exclusively used for Flurry/Stunning Strike). Throw on Hex and you're doing 1d10+1d6+2. Not even remotely a competition on usefulness for a Monk compared to the class features of Sun Soul, especially when you add in all the other warlock features.

Honestly, I have a high level Monk that I subbed out 2 levels of Warlock for 3 of Swashbuckler to find a better build. But at the end of the day, especially for Shadow Monks, a Warlock dip is simply too good.

[Natasha]

Assuming that your GM allows you to do the 2 level dip all those benefits. I know plenty who don't.

[darkdragoon]

Are you really honestly saying that you've kited enemies before in your games?

Also, if it DOESN'T benefit from Extra Attack, it's complete and total garbage.

Moving and shooting is not exactly a new concept in combat (and heck, you can actually strafe and the like due to how moving and attacking work here.)

And it does work with Extra Attack. It's even a Sage Advice for the people that want to rehash "what is an attack" arguments from 3e and 4e.

[RulesJD]

Assuming that your GM allows you to do the 2 level dip all those benefits. I know plenty who don't.

Well if you're DM wants to just make things up and ignore the rules then sure, it's not as good of an idea. But that's an entirely pointless consideration because when your DM straight up ignores the rules, there's no discussion any more. Just as easy to say the DM also makes the sun bolts do 20d12 damage per bolt with a DC 38 save vs death.

[Tanarii]

What's really ridiculous in 5E is how some DMs run enemies as willing to die messily if and only if they have the chance to cause a few HP of damage to the PCs. I.e. enemies should run away much more readily than they often do, and should only attack when they outnumber the PCs by 2:1 or even more.Combat-as-sport assumption. Ditto for kiting not working.

Note: I think kiting often isn't possible for in-game reasons. But it certainly a valid tactic if you can set up the circumstances in advance.

[Strill]

Moving and shooting is not exactly a new concept in combat (and heck, you can actually strafe and the like due to how moving and attacking work here.)

Yes, but an enemy who cannot catch you should not keep mindlessly pursuing you.

[AbyssStalker]

Kiting shouldn't be possible in most circumstances if the enemy can grapple, or cast any one of many movement hindering spells available.

[Submortimer]

Here's why the class is pointless:

Monks already benefit TREMENDOUSLY from a level dip into Warlock or taking Magic Initiate (Hex). With that simple addition your monk now has a better ranged attack (Eldritch Blast) for significantly cheaper cost. Hell you even get a short rest rechargable burning hands if you want. An entire class mechanic is overwhelmed by a 1 level dip/feat.

Except it's not. There is ZERO synergy between warlock and monk.

Eldritch blast is pretty bad for a monk, since they're likely to have awful charisma; it's an even WORSE choice for a sun soul monk, since they don't add their Stat modifier to it and the monk lasers use dex instead of charisma to hit.

Really, I think the sun soul monk needs one of two changes to make it a much more useable: either the bolts should be treated as ranged weapon attacks instead of ranged spell attacks, or the sun bolts should be wrapped up into a custom cantrip, wich the feature grants access to. In both cases, it would open the ability up for synergy with multiclassing and feat useage, something that it currently lacks.

[Strill]

Really, I think the sun soul monk needs one of two changes to make it a much more useable: either the bolts should be treated as ranged weapon attacks instead of ranged spell attacks, or the sun bolts should be wrapped up into a custom cantrip, wich the feature grants access to. In both cases, it would open the ability up for synergy with multiclassing and feat useage, something that it currently lacks.

How does making it a weapon attack instead of a spell attack improve synergy?

I don't think multiclass synergy is enough to justify a single-class's weakness. 5e was specifically designed to try and make multiclassing a sub-optimal choice in most cases so that new players could choose a single class and be reasonably certain that they would do well.

[Tanarii]

Well if you're DM wants to just make things up and ignore the rules then sure, it's not as good of an idea. But that's an entirely pointless consideration because when your DM straight up ignores the rules, there's no discussion any more. Just as easy to say the DM also makes the sun bolts do 20d12 damage per bolt with a DC 38 save vs death.Multiclassing is an optional rule. DMs that don't allow it aren't ignoring the rules, any more than DMs that don't allow feats.

[RulesJD]

Multiclassing is an optional rule. DMs that don't allow it aren't ignoring the rules, any more than DMs that don't allow feats.

And that's why I play adventurer's league.

But I digress. It's not that Warlock is a good level dip for a Sun Soul Monk, it's that a Warlock dip can replicate every single benefit of a Sun Soul monk for the other Monk subclasses, whilst retaining all the other benefits of those subclasses AND receiving even more benefits from the Warlock dip. There's literally no reason to be a Sun Soul monk outside of flavor because everything it can do a Shadow/Open Palm monk with 2 levels in Warlock can do better.

Look above. I put out a balanced 27 pointbuy starting stat array that is +2 Cha. At the level you'll multiclass (5+) at that will be +5 to hit for potentially 2d10+4 (Invocation for Agonizing Blast), or 2d10+2d6+4 with Hex running. That requires no Ki and Hex recharges on a short rest anyways. Or, you can drop 2 Burning Hands that recharge on a short rest and save your Ki.

[Tanarii]

A monk that takes a 2 level dip is two levels behind on all his Monk abilities, including increased MA damage, movement speed, and special features. Also your stat build has lower Wis in return for higher Cha, and is going to require pumping either Wis (for AC and saves) or Cha (for offensive ranged attacks).

I'm not saying that your build isn't better. Just that there's a trade off for doing it that way.

[Gnomes2169]

A monk that takes a 2 level dip is two levels behind on all his Monk abilities, including increased MA damage, movement speed, and special features. Also your stat build has lower Wis in return for higher Cha, and is going to require pumping either Wis (for AC and saves) or Cha (for offensive ranged attacks).

I'm not saying that your build isn't better. Just that there's a trade off for doing it that way.

I would like to add that this build also will be losing concentration on Hex more than a satndard warlock because monks are a 100% melee-short ranged class (with sun-soul adding to their short range/ AOE capabilities), cannot max out wisdom or cha (leaving your eldrich blast at a maximum of +8-10 hit and 1d10+2-4 damage if you do manage to hit... Compaired to a sun-soul with +11 hit and 1d10+5 damage on each hit, and your AC at a max of 17-19, while your stunning fist DC's cap at 16-18), the warlock abilities will never scale or change, the warlock cannot cast burning hands as a bonus action (and with only 2 levels, cannot cast it at level 2 or 3 like the sun-soul), and misses out on the level 19 ASI, bringing them to a maximum of 4 ASI's.

Oh. And their burning hands and stunning fist save DC's will always be lower than the sun-soul monk's. And they will never get a spirit bomb radiant fireball, because only the sun-soul gets that.

I've honestly never seen a reason to dip warlock on any kind of monk, and I see absolutely no reason why 2 levels of warlock makes a better sun-soul than an actual sun-soul.

[SharkForce]

a low level paladin/sorcerer multiclass is about as ASI-hungry as you can get, and you're expecting them to be guaranteed to have warcaster? yeah right.

and you're right, i don't care about damage vs hordes of CR 1/4 critters. because they have essentially reached the point where you typically don't even factor their existence in to encounter difficulty at level 20. they're not even really a speed bump, let alone an obstacle, for a level 20 character. or at least, they shouldn't be. and considering the sketchy assumptions vs the dragon to pull off a supposed 63 DPR, i'm not entirely certain i should trust whatever weird assumptions you put together for damage against a pit fiend or a mind flayer either. DPR (at least, not consistently repeatedable DPR that doesn't cost resources) does not go that high. not for anyone, unless there are some really screwy assumptions (i mean, i suppose a sun soul could deal that kind of DPR spread across multiple targets if you had a perfect sphere crammed to capacity with some kind of small hovering creature and a gap leading straight to the middle, but i did just say i'm not interested in numbers that require ridiculously sketchy assumptions like getting a melee sneak attack from hiding on a very perceptive flying creature that would require a mind-bogglingly stupid decision when the creature in question is genius-level human intelligence and iirc also quite wise).

[CNagy]

Searing Sunburst w/ Action Surge + 6 Ki is 2 Fireballs during 1 Turn, and no one else can do that!

Except for anyone with access to Fireball and Action Surge. Your spellcasting is only restricted to cantrips when you cast a spell as a bonus action.

[CircuitEngie]

Really, I think the sun soul monk needs one of two changes to make it a much more useable: either the bolts should be treated as ranged weapon attacks instead of ranged spell attacks, or the sun bolts should be wrapped up into a custom cantrip, wich the feature grants access to. In both cases, it would open the ability up for synergy with multiclassing and feat useage, something that it currently lacks.

I don't think synergy with multiclassing and feats would do much to help the Sun Soul, but I also don't think they are that bad. The concept of a harrier/ranged+mobile blaster works, as I have a similar build with my elemental monk (2 Druid/X Monk, Magic Stone+Shillelagh, High Wisdom). What is missing from it is Stunning Strike, which can only be used in melee where the Open Palm/Shadow monks excel.

The Sun Soul monk would be fine if they could perform a similar single target debilitation ability from ranged. My suggestion would be at level 6: "When you hit with your Radiant Sun Bolt, you can spend 1 ki point to attempt a blinding strike. The target must succeed on a Constitution saving throw or be blinded until the end of your next turn." Not quite as powerful as Stunning Strike, but also doesn't come with the danger of melee.

As for Burning Hands, even as a bonus action, I don't think it will amount to that much. I don't expect it to be completely useless because the AL module writers seem to love trolls; I just expect far more ki being spent blasting out Sun Bolts than on a first level spell.

[RulesJD]

I would like to add that this build also will be losing concentration on Hex more than a satndard warlock because monks are a 100% melee-short ranged class (with sun-soul adding to their short range/ AOE capabilities), cannot max out wisdom or cha (leaving your eldrich blast at a maximum of +8-10 hit and 1d10+2-4 damage if you do manage to hit... Compaired to a sun-soul with +11 hit and 1d10+5 damage on each hit, and your AC at a max of 17-19, while your stunning fist DC's cap at 16-18), the warlock abilities will never scale or change, the warlock cannot cast burning hands as a bonus action (and with only 2 levels, cannot cast it at level 2 or 3 like the sun-soul), and misses out on the level 19 ASI, bringing them to a maximum of 4 ASI's.

Oh. And their burning hands and stunning fist save DC's will always be lower than the sun-soul monk's. And they will never get a spirit bomb radiant fireball, because only the sun-soul gets that.

I've honestly never seen a reason to dip warlock on any kind of monk, and I see absolutely no reason why 2 levels of warlock makes a better sun-soul than an actual sun-soul.

1. That's why you take Resiliency Con. Stop trying to act like you know what you're talking about, because you don't. +3 Con + 2 Proficiency. Right off the bat you're saving concentration on less than 20 damage on anything 5 and over.

2. Nope, and I couldn't care less that I can't max our Cha. Wisdom would be nice, but far from necessary. If that's your bigger concern then just switch the resiliency to Wisdom and boom, you can max it out.

3. Okay you clearly have zero idea what you're talking about. Eldritch Blast is a cantrip which means it AUTOMATICALLY scales with CHARACTER level, not warlock level. That means by character level 5 its already vastly superior to Radiant bolt BECAUSE IT DOESN'T COST ANY Ki.

Do you understand that Ki is by far the most precious resource for a Monk? A basic radiant bolt at level 5 will do 1d6+4 (7.5). Spend 1 Ki and you get to 3d6+12 (22.5). Want to know what a Warlock dipped Monk will get? 2d10+2 (13) or using its bonus to cast Hex gets 2d10+2+2d6 (20). Still has all their Ki and can close to melee to deal out a possible extra 4d6 from Hex alone. Meanwhile, the Sun Soul is stuck having to burn another Ki to stay ahead while the Shadow/Open Palm monk can bounce around spending their Ki and still doing insane extra damage from Hex.

Lets take it to the next level, aka character level 11. Without any more spending of resources by the Monk, the Sun Soul now does...1d8+5 (9.5) by default. That's pathetic. Spending 1 Ki gets 3d8+15 (28.5). Not bad, but still burning a Ki. Warlock dip? 3d10+6 (22.5) by default. Bonus for Hex gets 3d10+6+3d6 (32.5). Again, the Warlock dipped Monk can keep that damage up round after round while the Sun Soul has to keep burning Ki. Even just sticking at range the Warlock dipped Monk rocks the Sun Soul in every single way. That's not even considering the aforementioned but completely ignored ton of extra temp HP, cantrips (guidance for stealth/initiative/etc. if you go Pact of the Tome), Darkness + Devil's Sight for super defense/offense generation at-will, the list literally goes on.

[E’Tallitnics]

Yes, but an enemy who cannot catch you should not keep mindlessly pursuing you.

There are LOTS of low INT, hungry monsters in the game.

You seem to be saying, for example, that a Gray Ooze with 1 INT, 60' Blindsight, 10' feet of movement and a 5' reach is going to detect something it can eat within range and ignore that food source because doing so would be ,"mindlessly pursuing you".

It makes me sad to think that you might be playing at a table where the Intelligence of your opponents has nothing to do with how they're portrayed by your DM.

Because if every creature your DM has you encounter is played as an INT 30 creature, you might be playing with what many would consider to be, kindly phrased, an 'Inexperienced DM'.

Helpful Advice: You may wish to check with your DM on how they adjudicate a creatures Intelligence, and therefore the actions in combat that creature might take. I'll surely give you a better grasp on their level of experience!

[CantigThimble]

There are LOTS of low INT, hungry monsters in the game.

You seem to be saying, for example, that a Gray Ooze with 1 INT, 60' Blindsight, 10' feet of movement and a 5' reach is going to detect something it can eat within range and ignore that food source because doing so would be ,"mindlessly pursuing you".

It makes me sad to think that you might be playing at a table where the Intelligence of your opponents has nothing to do with how they're portrayed by your DM.

Because if every creature your DM has you encounter is played as an INT 30 creature, you might be playing with what many would consider to be, kindly phrased, an 'Inexperienced DM'.

Helpful Advice: You may wish to check with your DM on how they adjudicate a creatures Intelligence, and therefore the actions in combat that creature might take. I'll surely give you a better grasp on their level of experience!

Anything with at least int 8 would understand and avoid kiting. I think there was one, maybe two encounters in the entire 7 level campaign I've been in where we were fighting something with less than 8 int (not counting summoned monsters obeying their summoner). All I'm saying is it seems awfully harsh to assume someone and their DM don't understand monster intelligence levels based on just this.

[bid]

That's why you take Resiliency Con. Stop trying to act like you know what you're talking about, because you don't
Pot, kettle.

If you get into melee range, you will lose hex. It's not an "if" it's a "when". Even with that 80% save, your melee lock will lose hex within 3 hits half the time or less than 6 use.

[Dimers]

The Sun Soul monk would be fine if they could perform a similar single target debilitation ability from ranged. My suggestion would be at level 6: "When you hit with your Radiant Sun Bolt, you can spend 1 ki point to attempt a blinding strike. The target must succeed on a Constitution saving throw or be blinded until the end of your next turn."

I really like that!


Stop trying to act like you know what you're talking about, because you don't. ... Okay you clearly have zero idea what you're talking about.

We can discuss the theoretical objective value of the subclass without accusations of ignorance.

[bid]

It makes me sad to think that you might be playing at a table where the Intelligence of your opponents has nothing to do with how they're portrayed by your DM.
Oh please, anyone with a modicum of respect would read it for what it was. A single grain of salt is sufficient to save you from that hasty generalization. Don't flame.

[RulesJD]

Pot, kettle.

If you get into melee range, you will lose hex. It's not an "if" it's a "when". Even with that 80% save, your melee lock will lose hex within 3 hits half the time or less than 6 use.

5th level = 85% save. 9th level = 90% save. 13th level (unlikely to see I'll grant) = 95% save.

Oh, and all those nasty Constitution saves you have to make throughout a game? Works for those too.

So no, I couldn't care less about concentration saves. At 85%-90% success, I'd gladly take the chance. Why?? Because oh no, I lost my Hex whatever will I do????

Oh that's right, I'll recast it with my other 2nd short rest rechargeable spell slot. I'll be able to take that extra damage from being in melee with my +8 infinite temp HP and +4 temp HP per kill in combat.

Or maybe I wont take the extra damage. I'll sit at range and throw Eldritch Blasts that do MORE damage and are more useful because of the possible invocation (repelling blast) AND the disadvantage on ability check that I can grant with Hex. Even at what you want your Sun Soul monk to be so good at (ranged DPS apparently), it fails to even be on par with the Warlock dipped Monk. I'll do more damage, have more Ki, and be more useful to the party at range than a Sun Soul Monk can possibly be.

[AbyssStalker]

The Sun Soul monk would be fine if they could perform a similar single target debilitation ability from ranged. My suggestion would be at level 6: "When you hit with your Radiant Sun Bolt, you can spend 1 ki point to attempt a blinding strike. The target must succeed on a Constitution saving throw or be blinded until the end of your next turn." Not quite as powerful as Stunning Strike, but also doesn't come with the danger of melee.

Well, that's getting home-brewed in once I get this supplement, nice suggestion.

And now all I can imagine are jerk-ass monks shooting people in the eyes with lasers.

[MaxWilson]

5th level = 85% save. 9th level = 90% save. 13th level (unlikely to see I'll grant) = 95% save.

Higher if there's a paladin's aura or Bless or Bardic Inspiration involved. At least in my playstyle, I don't think I've ever seen a planned party of more than two without access to at least one of those, because saves are important, and paladins and bards are both popular classes.

[RulesJD]

Higher if there's a paladin's aura or Bless or Bardic Inspiration involved. At least in my playstyle, I don't think I've ever seen a planned party of more than two without access to at least one of those, because saves are important, and paladins and bards are both popular classes.

Agreed, but I prefer to design my characters to, at least in theory, 'stand alone'. But yeah the typical party will have resources to keep those concentrations running.

Also, that idea of blinding bolts is fantastic. I haven't seen them completely change any class mechanics just yet, but presumably an overhaul of the Beastmaster is coming. Wouldn't be a bad idea to submit to the powers that be.

[MaxWilson]

Agreed, but I prefer to design my characters to, at least in theory, 'stand alone'. But yeah the typical party will have resources to keep those concentrations running.

Yeah, me too. I'll design a test party of four PCs, but then also ensure that any two of those PCs can stand alone as a scouting party or whatever and still handle themselves as a duo. I hate the meme of "never split the party," because living your whole life within 30' of three specific other people just isn't realistic. (And my players loooove splitting the party at the table.) E.g. even in a party with a Shadow Monk, where the Shadow Monk's concentration and ki are a lot cheaper than the sorlock's concentration and spells known, and skipping Darkness would make a lot of sense, I will still feel uncomfortable if my Devil's Sight sorlock does not spend a spells known slot on Darkness just in case.

I was just saying that 80% pass rate is a worst-case scenario when isolated or surprised, not the actual average pass rate in active combat mode.


Also, that idea of blinding bolts is fantastic. I haven't seen them completely change any class mechanics just yet, but presumably an overhaul of the Beastmaster is coming. Wouldn't be a bad idea to submit to the powers that be.

I liked the blinding bolts idea too. Would be enough to change my view on the utility of the Sun Soul monk from "nicheless" to "has a niche, would potentially play if I were in the mood."

[Gnomes2169]

1. That's why you take Resiliency Con. Stop trying to act like you know what you're talking about, because you don't. +3 Con + 2 Proficiency. Right off the bat you're saving concentration on less than 20 damage on anything 5 and over.

You mean +2 con, right? Using the 27 PB and picking up the resilient: Con feat as a V. Human, your max constitution at level 1 is 14 unless you are suddenly edvocating lowering your dex as well. Since you mentioned that you were not multi-classing until level 6-7, let's give the monklock a bit of a leg up and say prof bonus minimum is +3. This gives them a +5 bonus on their concentration checks, which have a minimum DC of 10 (which can potentially be higher if a hit from an enemy does 22 or more damage). With a +5 bonus the monklock has a 20% chance of losing their concentration every time they are damaged by any "swarm" monster. Against stronger monsters (such as a CR 5 bulett, which hits for 28 damage on average and thus has a DC 14 attack with a more appreciable 40% drop rate on the monk's concentration), the odds of hex dropping considerably greaten. Additionally, with the monk being its primary class and all of its goodies being locked to melee combat (unless you go Sunsoul or 4 elements), the monklock will be attacked (and thus hit) more often than a ranged character, and be forced to make concentration checks more often. Even at level 17 the monklok's maximum bonus to concentration is +8 without magic items, meaning that DC 10 hits (proc'd by goblins, kobolds, pixies, etc) will always have a 5% chance of ruining your day.

A warlock who can safely dump str, int and wis can have 16 dex, con and cha. At level 5 they will have a +6 to their concentration save, at without any investment from any of their 3 ASI's over the monklock, the pure warlock will have a +9 at level 17 (0% failure on DC 10 since 1's auto failing is just a variant in the DMG). However, the warlock will also be able to spend ASI's on improving their odds, which is actually a rather good choice given the warlock's relatively lower spell slots with high amounts of concentration spells. So getting up to 20 con and warcaster are both perfectly viable options for the warlock, and give it a +11 with advantage on concentration checks. On top of this, the warlock is a ranged character, meaning that fewer attacks will be directed at them than a melee character (see: not a monklock), so they will be hit less often and thus make fewer actual checks, whether they have a chance to fail them or not.

The monklock will fail more concentration checks, and lose their level 1 hex more often.


2. Nope, and I couldn't care less that I can't max our Cha. Wisdom would be nice, but far from necessary. If that's your bigger concern then just switch the resiliency to Wisdom and boom, you can max it out.

And then have +1 con on a melee-primary character? Alternately, I could just ignore being a warlock and get 16 con for extra survivability...

As for ignoring Cha completely after level 1 with this build, let's go to...


3. Okay you clearly have zero idea what you're talking about. Eldritch Blast is a cantrip which means it AUTOMATICALLY scales with CHARACTER level, not warlock level. That means by character level 5 its already vastly superior to Radiant bolt BECAUSE IT DOESN'T COST ANY Ki.

Do you understand that Ki is by far the most precious resource for a Monk? A basic radiant bolt at level 5 will do 1d6+4 (7.5). Spend 1 Ki and you get to 3d6+12 (22.5). Want to know what a Warlock dipped Monk will get? 2d10+2 (13) or using its bonus to cast Hex gets 2d10+2+2d6 (20). Still has all their Ki and can close to melee to deal out a possible extra 4d6 from Hex alone. Meanwhile, the Sun Soul is stuck having to burn another Ki to stay ahead while the Shadow/Open Palm monk can bounce around spending their Ki and still doing insane extra damage from Hex.

Lets take it to the next level, aka character level 11. Without any more spending of resources by the Monk, the Sun Soul now does...1d8+5 (9.5) by default. That's pathetic. Spending 1 Ki gets 3d8+15 (28.5). Not bad, but still burning a Ki. Warlock dip? 3d10+6 (22.5) by default. Bonus for Hex gets 3d10+6+3d6 (32.5). Again, the Warlock dipped Monk can keep that damage up round after round while the Sun Soul has to keep burning Ki. Even just sticking at range the Warlock dipped Monk rocks the Sun Soul in every single way. That's not even considering the aforementioned but completely ignored ton of extra temp HP, cantrips (guidance for stealth/initiative/etc. if you go Pact of the Tome), Darkness + Devil's Sight for super defense/offense generation at-will, the list literally goes on.

Yes, I do know that cantrips scale automatically. However, #of attacks is not the only way for an attack to scale. Without any increases to your attack stat (charisma), actually hitting and dealing consistent damage will be a problem. So while it might look more useful with 100% assumed accuracy... The far more accurate attacks will land more often, increasing the damage of the sun bolts. Meaning you only have the first half of the equation here, and still need to apply it to a situation to see how it pans out.

Oh, and sun bolts are free for your action, and by RAW, RAI, Rules as Clarified and Rules as Fun sun bolts benefit from extra attack, giving the sun-soul 2 of them for their action at level 5+. Only the bonus action costs ki... And only costs 1 ki to get 2 extra attacks. The same as flurry of blows, but radiant damage and at a 30ft range.

... Oh, and pure monks will have 2 extra ki over the monklock. Just going to put that out there before moving on.

At level 7 (level 2 of warlock, where agonizing blast can be taken) the average AC of monsters is ~16. Total DPR for a few builds (let's go sunsoul, monklock, warlock and monk w/ sling here to get some average damage comparisons) would be:

Sunsoul: +7 attack (+4 dex, +3 prof), 1d6+4 radiant on hit, 2 attacks (4 for 1/7'th of a short rest's ki).
-Damage on hit: 1d6+4 (7.5), two attacks (15 total), doubled for one ki (30 over all)
-Accuracy: 60%
-Total average damage: 9 (18)

Monklock EB: +5 attack (+2 cha, +3 prof), assuming hex is up this once (spell slots should be saved for shield instead, since they are more limited than ki and offense isn't worth the loss of survivability, but eh).
-Damage on hit: 1d10+2+1d6 (11), two shots total for 22 (as long as hex stays up... So not very)
-Accuracy: 50%
-Total average damage: 11 (outdone by 1 ki being spent, and matched immediately the next level when the sunsoul's dex is capped)

Warlock +7 attack (+4 cha, +3 prof), hex is up
-Damage on hit: 1d10+4+1d6 (12), two shots for 24 total
-Accuracy: 60%
-Total average damage: 14.4 (... Oddly outdone by a flurry from the sunsoul monk. Was not expecting that.)

Monk +7 attack, two sling attacks.
-Damage on hit: 1d4+4 (6.5), attacks twice for 13 total
-Accuracy: 60%
-Total average damage: 7.8

So starting from the moment you get the warlock "combo," sun soul is doing more damage. One more ASI and getting to level 11 increase the gap further. Level 17 you are looking at effectively at-will 4 attacks with a +11 bonus that deal 1d10+5 radiant damage each hit, vs a +8 attack with 4 bolts that deal 1d10+2 (maybe +1d6) damage on a hit.

Spending 1 ki to flurry is really just not a problem past level 5, so the only time you shouldn't be using flurry on a melee or sun bolt attack routine is when you literally only have one left... And even then, you can blow it on finishing a foe off before taking a short rest.

Admittedly, monklock is also better with at-will ranged combat than base monk... But then, I suspect that literally every class is except non-evocation wizards.

Temp HP, while nice, actually doesn't do a whole lot. Especially when your monk's defenses will be lower (cannot cap wis), and your class isn't one that excells at damaging enemies besides (frail) minions and mages. And even then, monks are typically stunning those targets, rather than killing them outright.

Cantrips are nice, no doubting or arguing that. But are they ASI nice? (Not mentioning the monk capstone here because dear lord that is worthless). With Mobile you are even faster, and can get one of the better benefits from Open Hand without going Open Hand. Lucky is the best thing since sliced bread. Observant makes you a sonar dish. Heck, defensive duelist could end up being more useful than the spell shield, given its infinite use and the monk's relative lack of ways to use their reaction. And of course, just increasing con (to get a max of 18 using the PB, variant human and sumping str, int, cha) never hurts.

Darkness+Devil's sight has its own slew of drawbacks to balance out its benefits which have been posted everywhere... But I suppose I'll list them out again just to show how the combo isn't all that awesome.
1. On the monklock in particular, you lose one rounds of attacks. Using your ki to cast the spell darkness as your action means that you cannot cast hex at all (both are concentration), which lowers the damage expected by a bit more, and since you did not attack with a monk weapon/ your fisticuffs on your turn you do not get martial arts or flurry. During this time, any other monk (with 7 ki) would have had a full round of attacking to the monklock's round of doing (effectively) nothing, and even burning ki for flurry they will more ki than the monklock (who spent 2 points to cast darkness).
2. Darkness is stationary. You do not target a creature or object with it, you target an area that does not move. However, creatures inside of it are plenty mobile. So unless you get a corridor fight, or team mates that force enemies to fight within the darkness, there is nothing stopping enemies from simply waltzing out, using the dodge action to cancel out your advantage, and hiding behind some kind of cover. Or going after your allies outside of the bubble of darkness. Both viable options.
3. Darkness does nothing to help you with incredibly common AOE effects like breath weapons, spells such as entangle and web, and monster attacks like the wing attack legendary action of a dragon, or the death scream of a banshee. While it doesn't make the monklock more vulnerable to the AOE, it confines the area to where the monk can be found (oddly making them more visible for these purposes), and it adds extra potential consequences for being damaged by such sources (lost concentration is more likely from such sources, given how many of them do 40+ damage, or cary nasty riders like stunning or reducing the creature to 0 hp).
4. Allies who are not warlocks will not have devil's sight, meaning they are harmed by darkness just as much as your enemies. While devil's sight might be nice there are a lot of builds that cannot afford 13 charisma and 2 levels of warlock, so it's reasonable to expect that at least one ally will be hampered when it is cast. Meaning that the combo's main use...
5. Is when a solo character is fighting. Which is a terrible idea in the 5e team-oriented design style, as encounters and creatures are balanced towards a party instead of individuals. Even with darkness on your side, fighting an encounter's worth of rnemies on your own is suicide, especially against...
6. Creatures that ignore darkness are going to shut this combo down immediately. Whether it's through spellcasting (counterspell and dispell magic both stop any Darkness the monk can cast, seeing as it defaults to level 3 and can't go higher) or alternate senses that a shockingly large number of magical creatures possess (blindsight and truesight being the main culprits here, with tremorsense as a close third), there are just a lot of creatures that won't be affected by your rather large investment in levels and playing time (leveling up twice can sometimes take months IC and OOC).

It's not that darkness and devil's sight are bad, but that they are largely as much of a hinderance to the team as they are to the enemy if used offensively. However, used defensively or to control the pace of the battle? Dropping darkness on a group of entrenched archers blinds them and forces them to move or be worthless. Same with a wizard or spellcaster with spells that require targets. It's also good for getting a momentary distraction if you are running away from a group of humanoids in back alleys or a tunnel system in a cave, and for causing panic among one or two creatures in a small room.

Devil's sight is good for if an enemy spellcaster attempts to use darkness to escape/distract the party, since you're basically able to ignore it and that gives the party a leg up in the encounter (the enemy expended resources that do not end up affecting the party), or if it can be effectively used in combination with web and darkness to pin enemies within the inky morass.

So still not sold on the effectiveness of the monklock.

... And blinding bolts is an awesome idea.

[MaxWilson]

2. Darkness is stationary. You do not target a creature or object with it, you target an area that does not move.

That's not true. Darkness explicitly allows you to cast it on an object to turn it into a quasi-darklantern. Are you maybe thinking instead of Silence?

[Submortimer]

I was thinking about this whole discussion, and I came up with what I think the three viable fixes for the level 3 ability are:

• At 3rd level, your unarmed strikes gain reach, with a range of 30 feet. You may choose to deal either bludgeoning or radiant damage with your unarmed strikes
Pros:
+ maintains DPR balance against Monklock for much longer
+ can use bolts as Opportunity Attacks
+ synergizes with Flurry of blows and Martial Arts
+ no need for Crossbow Master to do radiant in melee range.
Cons:
- Synergizes with Sentinel a little TOO well
- No way to increase range

• At 3rd level, you gain access to the Sun Bolt cantrip. Cantrip does essentially the same thing as current feature.
Pros:
+ RAW can be used with Spell Sniper and War caster.
Cons:
- Now is casting a spell, so suffers all the limitations of that.

• Change the Ranged Spell Attacks to Ranged Weapon attacks, give it a range of 30/90 feet.
Pros:
+ synergizes with sharpshooter and fighter/ranger
+ longer range
Cons:
- now affected by things that affect ranged weapon attacks.



For my money, I'd go for option 1 over the other two. While it still trims back the damage the monk can do, it makes Sun Soul Monk a very appealing option for battlefield control.

[Dimers]

Hmm. Option 1 has the problem that the monk will get few movement-based OAs because creatures don't leave the humongous threatened area. And it'll be harder to figure out when they do -- it's not simple like "when the bad guy stops being adjacent to me". I like the flexible application but it seems like it'd have a lot of mechanical consequences.

Sun Bolt as a cantrip has problems too -- like, it can be cherrypicked by other classes without investing in monk levels. It could have a line to make it compatible with other abilities and feats, like "This attack is treated in all ways as if you were casting a cantrip of the monk class."

I think a sunbolt should be a ranged spell attack if it's a thing that needs aiming -- it's not from a weapon and it's not melee-like, and it does seem like the kind of activity that would have disadvantage for trying to use in a brawl. Having it as a spell effect with a save instead of an attack roll is an interesting option too, though then you'd have to decide whether to use Dex or Wis for the save DC, and it would be usable in melee.

[SharkForce]

option 1 actually has basically no synergy with sentinel whatsoever. you're no more likely to get opportunity attacks then you were without it (probably less likely actually), and the other two abilities have a range of 5 feet, not reach.

[Submortimer]

option 1 actually has basically no synergy with sentinel whatsoever. you're no more likely to get opportunity attacks then you were without it (probably less likely actually), and the other two abilities have a range of 5 feet, not reach.


You're right, I was AFB and melded sentinel and PM in my head.

[Submortimer]

Sun Bolt as a cantrip has problems too -- like, it can be cherrypicked by other classes without investing in monk levels. It could have a line to make it compatible with other abilities and feats, like "This attack is treated in all ways as if you were casting a cantrip of the monk class."


This isn't an issue: the only class that would grant the cantrip is monk, and monk is not one of the classes specified by either Spell Sniper or Magic Initiate. As far as I can tell, there would be no way for anyone to get it outside of taking 3 levels of monk.

[CantigThimble]

This isn't an issue: the only class that would grant the cantrip is monk, and monk is not one of the classes specified by either Spell Sniper or Magic Initiate. As far as I can tell, there would be no way for anyone to get it outside of taking 3 levels of monk.

Well, there is tomelock.

[Dimers]

This isn't an issue: the only class that would grant the cantrip is monk, and monk is not one of the classes specified by either Spell Sniper or Magic Initiate. As far as I can tell, there would be no way for anyone to get it outside of taking 3 levels of monk.

Lore bard at 6th level or any bard at 10th, and they can use Charisma as the casting stat if Dex or Wis isn't specified in the cantrip description. Though if the bard has gotten by without it for that long, are they really likely to pick it up? Nature Cleric can only select druid cantrips and high elf can only select wizard cantrips. I'd still be concerned about unintended effects with future classes or prestige classes. Anyway, good point about the feats' wording.


Well, there is tomelock.

*smacks own forehead* Yeah, that too.

[Submortimer]

Hmm...well, that is a pretty good point about the tome lock and the bard, but in either case, the cantrip would still deal unarmed strike damage. The rub here would be other monks getting access to it, and if they had to take three levels of warlock to get there, why not just stick with eldritch blast?

[Secret Wizard]

How about something a bit more Hamon-ish?

Lv3. Sunlight Overdrive
When taking an attack action, you may spend 1 ki as a bonus action. If you do, all your weapon attacks threaten an additional 5 ft. and deal +1d8 radiant damage or +2d8 radiant damage on a critical hit. This damage is increased by +1d8 radiant damage against undead and fiends.

Lv7. Sunbolt
You gain the Sacred Flame cantrip if you did not have it and it's range is doubled to 120 feet and deals additional radiant damage equal to your Wisdom modifier. You may deliver Stunning Strikes through this cantrip by spending 1 ki point as usual, but only if the target fails the Dexterity save to avoid the damage.

Lv11. Radiant Soul
You gain the continuous effect of a Death Ward spell. If its effect is triggered, you automatically gain 2 ki points but the ward goes inactive until you take a long rest. Ki points gained this way may go beyond your regular maximum amount, but dissipate after a short rest.

Lv17. Fists of Glory
All your attacks threaten an additional 5 ft. and deal +1d8 radiant damage, or +2d8 radiant damage on a critical hit, and this damage is increased by +1d8 radiant damage against undead and fiends. These effects stack with Sunlight Overdrive.

[Strill]

How about something a bit more Hamon-ish?

Lv3. Sunlight Overdrive
When taking an attack action, you may spend 1 ki as a bonus action. If you do, all your weapon attacks threaten an additional 5 ft. and deal +1d8 radiant damage or +2d8 radiant damage on a critical hit. This damage is increased by +1d8 radiant damage against undead and fiends.

Lv7. Sunbolt
You gain the Sacred Flame cantrip if you did not have it and it's range is doubled to 120 feet and deals additional radiant damage equal to your Wisdom modifier. You may deliver Stunning Strikes through this cantrip by spending 1 ki point as usual, but only if the target fails the Dexterity save to avoid the damage.

Lv11. Radiant Soul
You gain the continuous effect of a Death Ward spell. If its effect is triggered, you automatically gain 2 ki points but the ward goes inactive until you take a long rest. Ki points gained this way may go beyond your regular maximum amount, but dissipate after a short rest.

Lv17. Fists of Glory
All your attacks threaten an additional 5 ft. and deal +1d8 radiant damage, or +2d8 radiant damage on a critical hit, and this damage is increased by +1d8 radiant damage against undead and fiends. These effects stack with Sunlight Overdrive.

This is much much worse than the current version. Sunlight Overdrive is a damage loss, and is completely useless. Sunbolt is a huge damage loss, and a complete waste of time.

[Dimers]

Lv3. Sunlight Overdrive
When taking an attack action, you may spend 1 ki as a bonus action. If you do, all your weapon attacks threaten an additional 5 ft. and deal +1d8 radiant damage or +2d8 radiant damage on a critical hit. This damage is increased by +1d8 radiant damage against undead and fiends.

Hmm, you need to specify whether Sunlight Overdrive applies to your whole turn or just that action. Starting at level 5 that could make for quite a nova (no pun intended). Extra Attack + Flurry + d8 (or more) radiant on each hit + Stunning, very nice.

I'd actually see this becoming problematic at higher levels, when you have more ki to spend. It's got strong DPR potential.


Lv7. Sunbolt
You gain the Sacred Flame cantrip if you did not have it and it's range is doubled to 120 feet and deals additional radiant damage equal to your Wisdom modifier. You may deliver Stunning Strikes through this cantrip by spending 1 ki point as usual, but only if the target fails the Dexterity save to avoid the damage.

Well, Sacred Flame is weak, but it's thematic at least -- the sunlight comes down from overhead instead of from your body. And stunning at range is never a bad thing.

[Strill]

Hmm, you need to specify whether Sunlight Overdrive applies to your whole turn or just that action. Starting at level 5 that could make for quite a nova (no pun intended). Extra Attack + Flurry + d8 (or more) radiant on each hit + Stunning, very nice.
It's a bonus action. You can't flurry. Furthermore, even if you could combine it with Flurry, you still wouldn't be getting any more damage per ki than you would from Flurry alone.

[Gnomes2169]

That's not true. Darkness explicitly allows you to cast it on an object to turn it into a quasi-darklantern. Are you maybe thinking instead of Silence?

Ah, yes. Yes I am. Though if you are holding the object, that does make AOE targeting a bit easier (since you are the middle of that black blob), and enemies can typically drop a weapon or shield if you cast it on that. However, not as much of a problem as being completely immobile... So we'll scratch that off the list.

And why do people still think monklock does more damage with its ranged attacks than the sun soul? Mathematically, the monklock doesn't bump their Cha, so they will almost always do less damage... And will always do less damage if they don't have hex up. Honestly baffles me a little bit.

[MaxWilson]

And why do people still think monklock does more damage with its ranged attacks than the sun soul? Mathematically, the monklock doesn't bump their Cha, so they will almost always do less damage... And will always do less damage if they don't have hex up. Honestly baffles me a little bit.

Do you mean "people" or "a person"? In either case, the answer is, "It's the Internet. There is no belief which does not have at least one adherent on the Internet."

[Vogonjeltz]

I want to know where this class's perks went! All I see are costly niche alternative options that most of the time are worse than what the base monk already had! The 11th level perk is good, but the 3rd and 6th level perks aren't even worth using.

3rd Level: Radiant Sun Bolt

This perk gives you the benefit of having a ranged attack on what was already the most mobile class in the game. So already it's mostly redundant. The drawback is that you can't use your weapon damage dice, can't get magic weapon upgrades, and can't use your class's single-most important ability: Stunning Strike. I'm seeing a ton of negatives, and not many positives. The only benefit I can think of is against those few enemies with resistance to magic weapons, or vulnerability to radiant damage.

6th level: Searing Arc Strike

Why would I use this worthless piece of crap instead of Stunning Strike? I'd have to sacrifice TWO stunning strikes to use this! That's ridiculous! Maybe if you somehow manage to pack four enemies into the blast area, I might begin to consider it, but an obscure situation like that is unacceptably rare for an ability like this.

11th level: Searing Sunburst:
Unlike the 6th-level perk, this one is actually worth considering. Clear out weak enemies for free, spend 3 ki for a genuine fireball, or 1 ki for half a fireball. A great ability, especially because it does radiant damage and not fire.

17th level: Sun Shield
I use my reaction when hit to deal upwards of 10 damage to an enemy. It doesn't cost resources, and it's certainly not bad, but by this level, an ability like that isn't all that notable.

-------------------

If I were to ever consider using this class in my games, I'd first need to homebrew on a reason to use Radiant Sun Bolt. It'd need to at least have magic weapons to boost it, as well as some other extra ability to provide the actual meat of the perk. As-is, it's barely more than a ribbon.

Searing Arc Strike could be free and I'd still have to think twice before using it. It's garbage. I'd replace it with something that's not made obsolete by Searing Sunburst.

Try to think of it like this:

1) Radiant Sun Bolt - You're always packing a ranged weapon. Combined with great mobility your Monk can kite better than anyone. Kiting is a tried and true method of beating melee only opponents.

2) Searing Arc Strike - You still have stunning strike, this is just another tool in your toolkit. In the (admittedly rare) scenario where there are 4+ targets, great! I'd also think that a Monk would go for 20 wisdom anyway, so this isn't a big deal.

3) Searing Sunburts - I actually am not a fan of this one, it can't scale as much as the Four Elements Fireball and it goes towards a Constitution save...ew.

4) Sun Shield - I agree it's pretty meh, especially compared to things like the Hand ability or any of the Elements capstones options.

[RulesJD]

Ah, yes. Yes I am. Though if you are holding the object, that does make AOE targeting a bit easier (since you are the middle of that black blob), and enemies can typically drop a weapon or shield if you cast it on that. However, not as much of a problem as being completely immobile... So we'll scratch that off the list.

And why do people still think monklock does more damage with its ranged attacks than the sun soul? Mathematically, the monklock doesn't bump their Cha, so they will almost always do less damage... And will always do less damage if they don't have hex up. Honestly baffles me a little bit.

Because:

1. Didn't see that errata from JC that you can multiattack with sun bolts. Thank god they at least get that, but....

2. Because Hex is highly likely to be up. See above posts regarding Resiliency Con.

3. You'll run out of Ki to make sun bolts comparable to EB + Hex long before a monklock runs out of EB + Hex. If a shadow monk wanted to be cute (and who doesn't) they can spend 2 Ki (so two rounds) for the aforementioned Darkness cheese to have advantage on all their Eldritch Blasts (now hitting more often than a Sun Soul) and disadvantage on almost all attacks against them. Lose the Hex damage obviously.

So yes, a monklock has greater at-will damage than a sun soul due to the sun soul burning through the monk's most precious resources at a far greater rate.

Now if sun souls could use the Sharpshooter feat, or the ranged blindness as mentioned above, it might give them a shot. Alternatively, just be a sun soul and magic initiate for Hex. It's not like you'll be concentrating on anything else anyways.

[Waffle_Iron]

I was thinking about this whole discussion, and I came up with what I think the three viable fixes for the level 3 ability are:

• At 3rd level, your unarmed strikes gain reach, with a range of 30 feet. You may choose to deal either bludgeoning or radiant damage with your unarmed strikes
Pros:
+ maintains DPR balance against Monklock for much longer
+ can use bolts as Opportunity Attacks
+ synergizes with Flurry of blows and Martial Arts
+ no need for Crossbow Master to do radiant in melee range.
Cons:
- Synergizes with Sentinel a little TOO well
- No way to increase range

For my money, I'd go for option 1 over the other two. While it still trims back the damage the monk can do, it makes Sun Soul Monk a very appealing option for battlefield control.

I like this option a lot. I think the only tweak it needs is:

• At 3rd level, During your turn, your unarmed strikes gain reach, with a range of 30 feet.
This way, you don't mess with opportunity ranges and feat interactions. You poke at distance, but react as normal.

[JohnDoe]

This is my first post on this forum.

You have to look at classes level by level. I see so many people talking about lvl 20 characters without understanding how classes are balanced during their progression.
__________

There are a couple of things to note about the SS monk:

1. SS Monks are between 25-35 spell point casters. They're similar to the AT and EK. Searing Arc Strike is essentially Improved War Magic on top of 2 attacks. At level 6.

You could compare the EK and the SS Monk, but the SS Monk is going to be attacking and blasting very early on and arguably more flavorful than the EK ever will with spell+ bonus attack @ 18.

2. Searing Arc Strike can be cast above first level with additional Ki points. Searing Sunburst cannot. Their spell caster level is, again, in line with the AT and EK.

Ki points spent = 1/2 monk level rounded down. The level of their spells are very very close to 1/3 casters.

SAS is the SS Monk's bread and butter nova. Sometimes it's better to dump Ki to incapacitate creatures as quickly as possible.

3. A monk regains all Ki points points after a ***30 minute rest***. This is why they give up versatility of other 1/3 casters. Others need a short rest (1 hour) or need a long rest. That's important.

4. You should only be having 6-8 medium-hard encounters per day. You typically need at least 2 short rests per day. (DMG, 84)

5. Your encounters are going to be based on CR. The number of enemies you're facing and how you deal with them is going to be based on the CR.
_________

You have Ki when you need to deal a lot of damage, and you don't need to worry about long rests.

---If you're talking about flurry of blows vs. SAS, that's an bonus action of:

@6: 2d6+8dex at best (15 damage average).
@6: 4d6 (14 damage average) (3ki)

If you use your Ki, you're practically doing the same damage. Either you're going to dump a full flurry into one creature, then do the same over a total of 3 rounds for 15x3, or you're just going to dump all 3 Ki in one turn, hit three, and you're doing 14 to each for 42 damage.

If they all successfully save, you're still dealing 21 damage. If you miss your flurry of blows you miss. Period.

---If you're talking about SAS vs. SSB, you're still comparing a lvl 3 fireball vs 2 attacks + higher level burning hands.

SSB is for large groups. That's it. Any decently high CR creatures will lower the total number.

@11: 8d6 (28 per target)
@11: 2d8+10dex (19) + 6d6 (21 per target)

You can be as efficient with your Ki as you want to be. There are obviously times to use one and not the other. You have quite a bit of versatility in how you deal with varying numbers of creatures.

Waiting one more level you can dump a 7d6 SAS @ 12, 8d6 @ 14, up to 11d6 @ 20
______________

Yes, you can talk about optimization as much as you'd like, but a SS Monk is able to dump a level 9 spell slot Burning Hands as a bonus action twice per short rest.

A lot of people want a blasty gish-type, the SS monk allows you to make two attacks and a bonus blast... And do it very early on.

Also, min/maxing isn't as fruitful in 5e. Just play a class, role play, and enjoy it.

[Strill]

SAS is the SS Monk's bread and butter nova. Sometimes it's better to dump Ki to incapacitate creatures as quickly as possible.Yes it absolutely is. Therefore it begs the question of why you're wasting your ki on a tiny bit of additional damage from SAS instead of actually incapacitating enemies with Stunning Strike.


Yes, you can talk about optimization as much as you'd like, but a SS Monk is able to dump a level 9 spell slot Burning Hands as a bonus action twice per short rest.And an Open Hand monk one-ups that with instant-kill from Quivering Palm.


A lot of people want a blasty gish-type, the SS monk allows you to make two attacks and a bonus blast... And do it very early on.The aesthetics can be done any which way, like the thirty foot reach idea. It's arbitrary. The question is whether it provides a net benefit over the next-best alternative.


1. SS Monks are between 25-35 spell point casters. They're similar to the AT and EK. Searing Arc Strike is essentially Improved War Magic on top of 2 attacks. At level 6.Is that supposed to be impressive? War Magic is weaker than just attacking, so it's mostly irrelevant anyway, and easily ignored.


You could compare the EK and the SS Monk, but the SS Monk is going to be attacking and blasting very early on and arguably more flavorful than the EK ever will with spell+ bonus attack @ 18.I don't see what your argument is. You seem to be conflating the character concept of a Sun Soul monk with the mechanical implementation of a Sun Soul monk. The "flavor" of a Sun Soul monk is just aesthetics. It's trivial to reproduce, and outside the scope of discussion. The mechanical implementation of a Sun Soul monk, however, is difficult to get right.

[Kane0]

Thinking of allowing martial arts to allow a bonus action sunbeam for when you spend your action to attack on it much like how it works for monk weapons/unarmed strikes. Gives a point between just regular sunray attacks and spending ki for an extra fwo ala flurry and the sunray equivalent.
Balanced?

[Gnomes2169]

2. Because Hex is highly likely to be up. See above posts regarding Resiliency Con.

Again. Debatable. Especially with how many creatures do deal 30+ damage past level 7 in one hit (or hit so many times it becomes likely at least one save is failed). Expecting to never fight a challenging creature, or to never get crit ever by a creature that averages 23-27 damage on a hit, is... Unrealistic, to put it nicely. Eventually, you will see concentration drop.


3. You'll run out of Ki to make sun bolts comparable to EB + Hex long before a monklock runs out of EB + Hex. If a shadow monk wanted to be cute (and who doesn't) they can spend 2 Ki (so two rounds) for the aforementioned Darkness cheese to have advantage on all their Eldritch Blasts (now hitting more often than a Sun Soul) and disadvantage on almost all attacks against them. Lose the Hex damage obviously.

You'll run out of ki after 7 rounds of spamming all of the time as a lvl 7 SS monk. At level 7, this puts you solidly ahead of an EB build without hex up for another 7 rounds, where the monklock finally catches up. So after 14 rounds of combat they even out... And only then does the monklock start to pull ahead if hex is up (otherwise, the average damage of 2 level 7 SS monk attacks (~15) is equal to the average damage of a non-hex EB with 14 cha with 100% accuracy. Even with advantage that does not happen, so SS will always be ahead if the monklock doesn't have hex).

However, then we have to think about the encounter day. Most encounters last maybe 2-4 (5-6 for boss or swarm encounters) rounds, with a typical 2-3 encounters between short rests in non-dungeon-crawl settings, so usually running out of ki won't be a big deal DPR wise over the course of a day. At higher levels the unarmed strike dice increase, amount of ki increases to "don't care about running out" levels (because you simply don't), and in general the DPR of the sunsoul is just not going to be hit by the monklock.

The darkness plan will make the monklock less susceptible to harm however... Though every round it is being used, the monklock is not in melee, or it is hurting the effectiveness of their allies (either by hiding enemies or by blinding allies by the monk hanging back and shooting). Keeping themselves away from all creatures does give the monklock a solid-ish boost... But at that point, why are you adding monk to your warlock? Keeping yourself at max range and spamming only eldritch blast sort of negates everything monk gives you except the cheeper, slotless darkness 2/ short rest... And you aren't using stunning fist, flurry or any of the real goodies provided by a 4-5 level sink unless an enemy who ignores darkness forces you into melee. And then you might as well switch to hex instead, which can be done by magic initiate almost equally.


So yes, a monklock has greater at-will damage than a sun soul due to the sun soul burning through the monk's most precious resources at a far greater rate.

Only if they are using hex, and only after the monklock is already strapped for resources themselves, since running out of ki requires multiple encounters to achieve at levels 6+. Hex only increases the dpr once the monklock is in melee, which again is the place where the largest risk of losing concentration lays, and where darkness does the most harm to your ally's effectiveness (though the increased accuracy on your unarmed strikes will make monklock better in melee... For the 1-3 rounds/ short rest where they can flurry before being out of ki due to their relatively tiny ki pool and the expense of casting darkness or silence).

So... No. Not really. The SS has enough ki to burn through that spending 1/ round won't harm it all that much unless encounters go for an unusually long time. Short rests do happen quite commonly, after all.


Now if sun souls could use the Sharpshooter feat, or the ranged blindness as mentioned above, it might give them a shot. Alternatively, just be a sun soul and magic initiate for Hex. It's not like you'll be concentrating on anything else anyways.

Agreed on all of this... Though there are a lot better feats for monk to take than magic initiate: anything not wis based. Yes hex is nice, but it is not permanently down on wis and con nice.

[MaxWilson]

Agreed on all of this... Though there are a lot better feats for monk to take than magic initiate: anything not wis based. Yes hex is nice, but it is not permanently down on wis and con nice.

Magic Initiate: Warlock is really good for a Mobile Shadow Monk, and the non-Wis casting stat doesn't even matter. Take either Find Familiar (for utility and a scouting partner) or Hex (for occasional grappling shenanigans and a mild DPR boost) for your spell, but the real prize is Booming/Greenflame Blade. Shadow Jump gives you advantage on Booming Blade attacks (which still rely on Dex, not Cha, so you lose nothing) and then your 60'-odd movement takes you back out of range. I strongly considered taking Magic Initiate for my next ASI over Lucky with my Shadow Monk 11, but then ultimately decided that DPR isn't her role and that Lucky helps more with recon (I'm afraid of mind flayer ambushes). Still, Magic Initiate is a very strong feat for a monk.

[JohnDoe]

Again, you need to look at the CR of encounters, and level progression. You get QP at 17.

I think you're overestimating the efficacy of Quivering Palm. It will virtually never hit. There are two points to consider:

1. The Constitution Saving Throw
2. The DPR boost on a successful Saving Throw.

____________________________________

If you want to talk about "instant death" the important question is:

What exactly are you planning to hit with it..?

@17 a hard encounter is going to be a 19+ CR creature, and even most 17 CR creatures are going to make a successful Constitution save against it... The odds of a failed save are the same as rolling a 1 for it to hit (magical resistance for advantage on saves, +5), IF they don't have an automatic save on top of that.

Con saving throws are often AOE spells, or bonuses on top of reliable damage rolls. They're accessible very early on, and they often target numerous creatures, to increase their odds each and every round.

QP is only worthwhile on a single, high CR creature, and you can only attempt it every two rounds. You're going to be dumping 4 ki every 2 rounds regardless (Flurry/QP), so you have about 5 attempts.

That's 1 minute (predictable), and only worthwhile if it succeeds in the first couple of attempts (4 rounds).

After that, your Party's DPR is going to make its benefits rather negligible.

____________________________________

In terms of DPR:

QP can only be used every other round, for a reliable 55 damage (its reliability is a big plus.) this is a bonus of about 13 damage over attack+flurry two rounds in a row... About 6.5 DPR...

That's assuming your Flurry all hits, which is again why I say the reliability is a big plus.

____________________________________

So yes, @ 17 you gain a small DPR, and a low chance of incapacitating a target after 2 rounds.

Let's talk about the number of creatures in an encounter @17

@17
1 creature = 21+ CR
Won't hit. DPR increase makes no difference on the total rounds. If you're lucky enough for them to fail the throw, most can automatically succeed.

2 creatures = 11 CR
~150-240 HP
Again, after 2 rounds one creature will already practically be dead. Not attacking the same creature as the rest of the party is going to allow it to last longer.

3 creatures = 8 CR
~85-135 HP
SAS @ 17 deals ~35 to multiple targets, on top of 2 attacks (21)
In the 2 rounds for QP to have a 'chance' to succeed, the creature is already dead, or damaged to the point that the Party will finish it without QP.

@20
QP can be even worse.



Yes it absolutely is. Therefore it begs the question of why you're wasting your ki on a tiny bit of additional damage from SAS instead of actually incapacitating enemies with Stunning Strike.


Because at any given level SAS is scaling to multiple creature encounters. If you're facing a single enemy, yes, that's why you use Stunning Strike.

You get QP @17, which is a negligible bonus at end-game.

Your Party would much rather have you using reliable abilities for every type of encounter, from 6-20 (Monks are already good 1-5), than waiting until 17 to get a crapshoot.



And an Open Hand monk one-ups that with instant-kill from Quivering Palm.


No it doesn't.



The aesthetics can be done any which way, like the thirty foot reach idea. It's arbitrary. The question is whether it provides a net benefit over the next-best alternative.


It has more versatility in encounter types, and QP isn't reliable at all.



Is that supposed to be impressive? War Magic is weaker than just attacking, so it's mostly irrelevant anyway, and easily ignored.

Yes, casting a spell on top of 2 attacks at lvl 6 is very impressive. It helps the Monk quite a bit.

An EK will always cast Haste for 5 attacks per round... Or Polymorph, action surge, and cast another spell in a single round (or attack)... It's not easily ignored...



I don't see what your argument is. You seem to be conflating the character concept of a Sun Soul monk with the mechanical implementation of a Sun Soul monk. The "flavor" of a Sun Soul monk is just aesthetics. It's trivial to reproduce, and outside the scope of discussion. The mechanical implementation of a Sun Soul monk, however, is difficult to get right.

The mechanical implementation is very good if you understand how encounters are balanced.

[MaxWilson]

QP is only worthwhile on a single, high CR creature, and you can only attempt it every two rounds. You're going to be dumping 4 ki every 2 rounds regardless (Flurry/QP), so you have about 5 attempts.

I am not an Open Hand or QP fan, but I think you're overstating the case. It's useful against any glass cannon.

Let's say your high-level group of four PCs surprised by four Mind Flayers and a Marilith. (Deadly fight for level 20.) Furthermore, let's say that thanks to Alert and high Dex, your Open Hand monk wins initiative.

Mind Flayers have AC 15, 71 HP, and Con save +1. (I'm assuming here that Magic Resistance doesn't help against ki effects, which is how I would rule it.) You probably have +11 to hit, so you can Flurry, likely stunning three of them, and inflict Quivering Palm on one of the ones you stunned, with which you can almost certainly kill him next round (probably while using Patient Defense). Cost: 8 ki. Net effect: three mind flayers get taken out of commission, one permanently, and party is much less likely to get stunned by psychic blasts and have their brains eaten while a Marilith liquidates their bodies. Quivering Palm isn't a huge part of this equation but it does reduce the number of Mind Flayers to three, which saves you from spending as much ki every round keeping them all stunned. It's worth using, and in this situation your Open Hand monk is glad to be Open Hand and not a Shadow Monk.

TL;DR it's useful against groups of mid-CR creatures too.

[weaseldust]

I've never seen Quivering Palm used in combat, but it's great fun for manipulating weak enemies. You use it to cause one mook to die horribly, then hit a second mook with it and promise you'll end the effect harmlessly if they help you in some way (tell you where the bodies are hidden, show you the secret entrance, etc.). It's almost certainly overkill, but it's also hilarious.

[MaxWilson]

I've never seen Quivering Palm used in combat, but it's great fun for manipulating weak enemies. You use it to cause one mook to die horribly, then hit a second mook with it and promise you'll end the effect harmlessly if they help you in some way (tell you where the bodies are hidden, show you the secret entrance, etc.). It's almost certainly overkill, but it's also hilarious.

Hahaha, the best part is that you don't even have to spend the ki on the second mook. You can bluff.

[JohnDoe]

I am not an Open Hand or QP fan, but I think you're overstating the case. It's useful against any glass cannon.

Let's say your high-level group of four PCs surprised by four Mind Flayers and a Marilith. (Deadly fight for level 20.) Furthermore, let's say that thanks to Alert and high Dex, your Open Hand monk wins initiative.

Mind Flayers have AC 15, 71 HP, and Con save +1. (I'm assuming here that Magic Resistance doesn't help against ki effects, which is how I would rule it.) You probably have +11 to hit, so you can Flurry, likely stunning three of them, and inflict Quivering Palm on one of the ones you stunned, with which you can almost certainly kill him next round (probably while using Patient Defense). Cost: 8 ki. Net effect: three mind flayers get taken out of commission, one permanently, and party is much less likely to get stunned by psychic blasts and have their brains eaten while a Marilith liquidates their bodies. Quivering Palm isn't a huge part of this equation but it does reduce the number of Mind Flayers to three, which saves you from spending as much ki every round keeping them all stunned. It's worth using, and in this situation your Open Hand monk is glad to be Open Hand and not a Shadow Monk.

TL;DR it's useful against groups of mid-CR creatures too.

Are you seriously suggesting QP ignore magic resistance..? That's already so much better than Power Word Kill, a 9th level spell that can be cast once per day on creatures who have less than 100 hp...

You're waving your hand for an instant death spell. You're making it 5 times more likely to hit in most cases... That you could cast 6 times per short rest...

As a DM I would never let a monk's 'Magic of Ki' bypass a legendary creature's most important defense. You might house rule that, but you should be very very careful because you could easily break end-game encounters, and your 9th level casters will be thoroughly annoyed.

If you're throwing out the spell save DC on a con save then that's absolutely insane. That would make any high CR creature lose its most important feature. That would make almost any high end creature a joke. A group of monks would QP any deadly creature in two rounds.

Magic Resistance works against all spell saves. The 'Magic of Ki' and its *spell save DC* on a *constitution save* is VERY important.

It's not an unarmed strike, like Flurry of Blows which has no spell save DC. It's not like an athletics (strength) check to knock a creature prone. You have 2 weeks to magically cause instant death at will. That's magic.

__________

You'll rarely see QP used very effectively in combat, because it has very little utility in combat --- it's useful because it can be used outside of combat.

You could be forced to retreat from a losing encounter, or a creature could flee (when its HP is low), and you can still roll to kill it... It's a spell that can be used out of combat.

You can roll to either kill the creature outright, or finish it with a failed save.

That's why the 13 extra damage every other round isn't as good as reapplying stuns, flurry of blows, etc. You can use QP to finish an opponent, otherwise you're giving up a lot for an extra 6.5 dpr.

At the end of so many rounds... You can use quivering palm and make up for not using it every other turn.
_____________

1. You can attempt to stun up to two with *weapon attacks* and apply QP with on one with flurry's unarmed strikes.

You might be able to take one out by second round by using your action to use QP... Or you could be using that turn to re-apply Stunning Strike.

That non-stunned Mind Flayer will be targetted by your party immediately anyway.

2. A SS monk can re-apply the stuns, and will also likely attempt to use SAS on BOTH turns rather than using the second turn's action to use QP on one creature.

That damage benefits the group entirely, including your GWM PC's who will wipe the floor in that first round by finishing wounded enemies and getting an extra attack.

You're comparing this to the SS Monk who is designed to to handle groups, starting at level 6. Not 17.

[Strill]

If you want to talk about "instant death" the important question is:

What exactly are you planning to hit with it..?

@17 a hard encounter is going to be a 19+ CR creature, and even most 17 CR creatures are going to make a successful Constitution save against it... The odds of a failed save are the same as rolling a 1 for it to hit (magical resistance for advantage on saves, +5), IF they don't have an automatic save on top of that.

Con saving throws are often AOE spells, or bonuses on top of reliable damage rolls. They're accessible very early on, and they often target numerous creatures, to increase their odds each and every round.

QP is only worthwhile on a single, high CR creature, and you can only attempt it every two rounds. You're going to be dumping 4 ki every 2 rounds regardless (Flurry/QP), so you have about 5 attempts.

That's 1 minute (predictable), and only worthwhile if it succeeds in the first couple of attempts (4 rounds).

After that, your Party's DPR is going to make its benefits rather negligible.Why would you be flurrying? That sounds like a waste of Ki.

Also, Magic Resistance? Where did you get the idea that QP was magic?


In terms of DPR:

QP can only be used every other round, for a reliable 55 damage (its reliability is a big plus.) this is a bonus of about 13 damage over attack+flurry two rounds in a row... About 6.5 DPR...

That's assuming your Flurry all hits, which is again why I say the reliability is a big plus.So you're saying it's competitive in damage, even if your opponent passes the save, but has a chance to instantly end the fight. That sounds good to me.


So yes, @ 17 you gain a small DPR, and a low chance of incapacitating a target after 2 rounds.

Let's talk about the number of creatures in an encounter @17

@17
1 creature = 21+ CR
Won't hit. DPR increase makes no difference on the total rounds. If you're lucky enough for them to fail the throw, most can automatically succeed.

2 creatures = 11 CR
~150-240 HP
Again, after 2 rounds one creature will already practically be dead. Not attacking the same creature as the rest of the party is going to allow it to last longer.

3 creatures = 8 CR
~85-135 HP
SAS @ 17 deals ~35 to multiple targets, on top of 2 attacks (21)
In the 2 rounds for QP to have a 'chance' to succeed, the creature is already dead, or damaged to the point that the Party will finish it without QP.

@20
QP can be even worse. How are you getting the enemies to all stand that close together every single time?

It's also worth noting that a diviner Wizard can bypass legendary resistance and force them to fail the saving throw.


Because at any given level SAS is scaling to multiple creature encounters. If you're facing a single enemy, yes, that's why you use Stunning Strike.No it isn't. You're acting like it's trivial to fit three enemies in the area of SAS. It's extremely rare that you get so many enemies so close together, nevermind the four or more enemies you'd need in order for it to be more efficient than Flurry of Blows.

SAS is terrible is because of its tiny area of effect, and damage that's not as good as flurry. In practice it's incredibly rare for it to hit enough enemies to make it worth using. Similarly I like Searing Sunburst because of its wide area, allowing it to scale to encounters the way you describe.


You get QP @17, which is a negligible bonus at end-game.

Your Party would much rather have you using reliable abilities for every type of encounter, from 6-20 (Monks are already good 1-5), than waiting until 17 to get a crapshoot.Well then isn't it a good thing that Open Hand also gets Open Hand Technique, which is very widely applicable to almost any fight, unlike Sun Soul which gets a ranged attack that's only useful if you're too slow and a tiny AoE that can only hit enemies if they pretend to be bowling pins.


No it doesn't.You brought up 9th level SAS, which costs 10 ki and does 11d6, plus two melee attacks. You're saying that Quivering Palm, which costs 3 ki and does 10d10 at the worst, isn't as good?


Yes, casting a spell on top of 2 attacks at lvl 6 is very impressive. It helps the Monk quite a bit.A Ranger or a Paladin casting a spell on top of 2 attacks would be impressive. It's a lot less impressive than a monk, who has to give up two attacks to get the spell.


An EK will always cast Haste for 5 attacks per round... Or Polymorph, action surge, and cast another spell in a single round (or attack)... It's not easily ignored...What does any of this have to do with War Magic? Are you talking about Improved War Magic? Because War Magic doesn't apply to any of the spells you listed.


The mechanical implementation is very good if you understand how encounters are balanced.

Oh of course. They're balanced so that all the enemies group up in a single spot for you to hit with SAS. I totally remember reading that in the Dungeon Master's Guide.

[JohnDoe]

...are you serious?

Do I have to repeat myself?


Why would you be flurrying? That sounds like a waste of Ki.

...you do realize that QP takes two turns to use, right..?

So you plan on doing
2d10+10dex (21)
10d10 (55)
For 76 damage / 3ki

Vs

4d10+20dex (42 damage)
4d10+20dex (42 damage)
For 84 damage / 2 Ki

...And you can be using Stunning Strike on those rounds as well...



Also, Magic Resistance? Where did you get the idea that QP was magic?

The Magic of Ki:
Monks make careful study of a **magical** energy that most monastic traditions call Ki. This energy is an element of the **magic** that suffuses the multiverse -- specifically the element that flows through living bodies. Monks harness this power within themselves to create *****magical effects***** and exceed their bodies' physical capabilities, and some of their special attacks hinder the flow of Ki in their opponents...

It's a spell save DC. It's a magical effect. Magically inflicting instant death 2 weeks later isn't like an athletics (strength) check. Ki allows you to cause a ***magical effect***.
_____________

Do you actually think that monks get a spell that blows away 9th level Power Word Kill that full casters get at 17? ...and it bypasses magic resistance...?

So they're throwing this out over 18 times per day with an instant death that's far more likely to take effect than any 9th level spell..?

...Short rests are at LEAST 1 hour. A monk needs to meditate for 30 minutes.

I can't fathom how people can't see how game-breaking that would be.



So you're saying it's competitive in damage, even if your opponent passes the save, but has a chance to instantly end the fight. That sounds good to me.

Its chances are minuscule and overridden by auto-saves. It's more like Power Word Kill and can be used out of combat.

You're giving up a lot by attempting it 6 times over 12 turns against a high CR creature... By that time the fight is already over.



How are you getting the enemies to all stand that close together every single time?

Did I say every single time? There are times I use Flurry of Blows and when I have the opportunity I use SAS.

...readying actions, stunning, movement, using the grids laid out in the modules when possible...



It's also worth noting that a diviner Wizard can bypass legendary resistance and force them to fail the saving throw.

1. You're not a Diviner Wizard
2. That has nothing to do with spell saves.



No it isn't. You're acting like it's trivial to fit three enemies in the area of SAS. It's extremely rare that you get so many enemies so close together, nevermind the four or more enemies you'd need in order for it to be more efficient than Flurry of Blows.

SAS is terrible is because of its tiny area of effect, and damage that's not as good as flurry. In practice it's incredibly rare for it to hit enough enemies to make it worth using. Similarly I like Searing Sunburst because of its wide area, allowing it to scale to encounters the way you describe.

You don't need 4 enemies to be better than flurry of blows.

2 will deal more damage.



Well then isn't it a good thing that Open Hand also gets Open Hand Technique, which is very widely applicable to almost any fight, unlike Sun Soul which gets a ranged attack that's only useful if you're too slow and a tiny AoE that can only hit enemies if they pretend to be bowling pins.

It is a good thing... the SS also has a lot of good things...



You brought up 9th level SAS, which costs 10 ki and does 11d6, plus two melee attacks. You're saying that Quivering Palm, which costs 3 ki and does 10d10 at the worst, isn't as good?

Not when you're giving up Stunning Strike + Flurry of Blows, or a good opportunity to use Stunning Striks + SAS vs multiple creatures for a massive DPR boost.

Instead you're wasting your round for a tiny DPR boost.



A Ranger or a Paladin casting a spell on top of 2 attacks would be impressive. It's a lot less impressive than a monk, who has to give up two attacks to get the spell.

What does any of this have to do with War Magic? Are you talking about Improved War Magic? Because War Magic doesn't apply to any of the spells you listed.

1. The spell does much more damage than Flurry of Blows if you can hit multiple creatures...

2. Yes. That's why I said it, and said EK @ 18. Same goes for Battle Magic.



Oh of course. They're balanced so that all the enemies group up in a single spot for you to hit with SAS. I totally remember reading that in the Dungeon Master's Guide.

Again you use whatever is the best option at the time... You don't spam the same ability over and over and over and over and over and over and over so that maybe you can get an instant kill.

I never said you shouldn't use Flurry of Blows. I said there are encounters where SAS is very useful. Of course there are times that you use Flurry and there are times that you use SAS... That's the point of having multiple options...

You can do this twice per 30 minute rest (half of a short rest).
_____________________

If you think you're going to spam QP all day by all means go ahead...

Your team would much rather you give up your precious 6.5 dpr boost and actually USE your other abilities IN combat.

You could waste 40 turns waiting for that enemy to roll a 1 then have it overturned by an auto save... And you're likely only going to have 5 attempts if you're only casting flurry between attempts...

That DPR boost..? The enemy flees... Now you use QP much like Power Word Kill and you've made up the difference of using it for 9 turns because it's benefits are negligible, especially compared to the utility you're giving up on half of your turns to use it for an extra few dpr.

[Gnomes2169]

Magic Initiate: Warlock is really good for a Mobile Shadow Monk, and the non-Wis casting stat doesn't even matter. Take either Find Familiar (for utility and a scouting partner) or Hex (for occasional grappling shenanigans and a mild DPR boost) for your spell, but the real prize is Booming/Greenflame Blade. Shadow Jump gives you advantage on Booming Blade attacks (which still rely on Dex, not Cha, so you lose nothing) and then your 60'-odd movement takes you back out of range. I strongly considered taking Magic Initiate for my next ASI over Lucky with my Shadow Monk 11, but then ultimately decided that DPR isn't her role and that Lucky helps more with recon (I'm afraid of mind flayer ambushes). Still, Magic Initiate is a very strong feat for a monk.

It is a good feat... But getting it and choosing Warlock or Wizard will reduce a character's wisdom and/ or constitution since you have to have at least 13 in the casting stat of the class you choose. As well, booming blade and greenflame blade aren't really the best DPR options for a monk, given they are explicitly casting a spell, so they don't count towards allowing the monk to flurry (which deals more damage over all), and since they explicitly have to be made with a weapon, you aren't able to use Stunning Fist. They are okay for more defensive monks (who can take dodge or withdraw as a bonus action to spend their ki), but not exactly all to offensive compared to the base class kit.

[JohnDoe]

It is a good feat... But getting it and choosing Warlock or Wizard will reduce a character's wisdom and/ or constitution since you have to have at least 13 in the casting stat of the class you choose. As well, booming blade and greenflame blade aren't really the best DPR options for a monk, given they are explicitly casting a spell, so they don't count towards allowing the monk to flurry (which deals more damage over all), and since they explicitly have to be made with a weapon, you aren't able to use Stunning Fist. They are okay for more defensive monks (who can take dodge or withdraw as a bonus action to spend their ki), but not exactly all to offensive compared to the base class kit.

Stunning *Strike* requires a melee weapon attack.

You'd be left with casting only a cantrip for the round...

[Strill]

...are you serious?

The Magic of Ki:
Monks make careful study of a **magical** energy that most monastic traditions call Ki. This energy is an element of the **magic** that suffuses the multiverse -- specifically the element that flows through living bodies. Monks harness this power within themselves to create *****magical effects***** and exceed their bodies' physical capabilities, and some of their special attacks hinder the flow of Ki in their opponents...I never noticed that because it was off in the fluff section. The rules sections don't mention magic at all, except for where the monk explicitly casts a spell, like with Shadow monks and Elemental Monks.


You're not a Diviner Wizard...And neither can a diviner cause instant-death at any HP level. My point is that it's a powerful inter-character combo that is only enabled by an open-hand monk.


You're saying that monks get a spell that blows away 9th level Power Word Kill that full casters get at 17... And they can use it 6 times per short rest...? ...and it bypasses magic resistance...?

So they're throwing this out up to 18 times per day with an instant death that's far more likely to take effect than any 9th level spell..?Is that unusual? As far as I'm aware, most martial classes can reliably out-damage single-target attack spells.


It's a spell save DC. It's a magical effect. Magically inflicting instant death 2 weeks later isn't like an athletics (strength) check. Ki allows you to cause a ***magical effect***.

I can't fathom how people can't see how game-breaking that would be.No, it's a Ki save DC. Furthermore, just because something is supernatural doesn't mean it's magic. Psionic abilities aren't affected by magic resistance, for example.



Do I have to repeat myself?

I never said you shouldn't use Flurry of Blows. I said there are encounters where SAS is very useful. Of course there are times that you use Flurry and there are times that you use SAS... That's the point of having multiple options...

Flurry of Blows @6 = 15 damage at most.
SAS @6 = 14 damage.... And you can hit multiple targets...

Either you could wait 3 turns to apply Flurry of Blows to 3 targets, or use the opportunity to use 3 Ki and deal virtually the same damage to 3 enemies at once... And you regain all of your Ki in 30 minutes...

You can do this twice per short rest.Right. So in that one specific situation, it might be marginally better. My argument is that that situation is very rare and unusual, and that the benefit when it does come up is very small. Therefore the overall benefit from the ability is insignificant.



If you think you're going to spam QP all day by all means go ahead...

Your team would much rather you give up your precious 6.5 dpr boost and actually USE your other abilities IN combat.

You could waste 40 turns waiting for that enemy to roll a 1 then have it overturned by an auto save... And you're likely only going to have 5 attempts if you're only casting flurry between attempts...

That DPR boost..? The enemy flees... Now you use QP much like Power Word Kill and you've made up the difference of using it for 9 turns because it's benefits are negligible, especially compared to the utility you're giving up on half of your turns to use it for an extra few dpr.

See we're really making the same arguments against one another. I say SAS is only useful in rare and obscure situations. You say QP is only useful in rare and obscure situations.

The difference is that you can change your tactics to favor QP, where you can't with SAS. For example, you can't easily force enemies to group up. Even if you do use the few abilities that let you move your opponents, you'll lose more grouping them up than you gain from AoEing them.

With QP, on the other hand, you can do things like take cover on turns where you activate QP. You can coordinate with your party which enemies to hit. You can easily defeat powerful opponents alone. You can assassinate targets without attracting suspicion.

Yes, QP is situational. However, QP is a unique tool in the Open Hand monk's arsenal. It has a unique effect (instant-death) and a unique delivery method (activate from anywhere within a week). It encourages creative use, and has out-of-combat applications as well. While QP may be situational, open hand already has a variety of general purpose abilities anyway.

SAS, however, is not unique. It competes with Searing Sunburst. A situational ability that competes with another situational ability just makes it all the more niche. Sun Soul monk also does not have much in the way of general purpose abilities. This is what Radiant Sun Bolt is for, but its main benefit, range, is something monks already have a lot of via their mobility, so the benefit is minor.

So I see SAS, an ability that's useful in only a few situations, is obsoleted in many of those situations by Searing Sunburst, and gives a very small benefit the few times it is useful, and is put on an archetype without much general utility, and I see that as an empty level. It could be ok to have a weak situational ability if Radiant Sun Burst was powerful, but unfortunately it's not.

[JohnDoe]

I never noticed that because it was off in the fluff section. The rules sections don't mention magic at all, except for where the monk explicitly casts a spell, like with Shadow monks and Elemental Monks.

[...]

No, it's a Ki save DC. Furthermore, just because something is supernatural doesn't mean it's magic. Psionic abilities aren't affected by magic resistance, for example.



There's nothing that would suggest that Ki isn't magical, when it's specifically described as magical, and imposes magical effects.

Yes, psionics are from the Far Realm, outside of the multiverse (unlike Ki, which is a fundamental element of magic in the multiverse) but even that doesn't change the game mechanics:

Psionics and Magic
Psionics and magic are two distinct forces. In general, an effect that alters or affects a spell has no effect on a psionic effect. There is one important exception to this rule. A psionic effect that reproduces a spell is treated as magic. A psionic effect reproduces a spell when it allows a psionic creature or character to cast a spell. In this case, psionic energy taps into magic and manipulates it to cast the spell.
For example, the mind flayer as presented in the Monster Manual has the Innate Spellcasting (Psionics) feature. This feature allows the mind flayer to cast a set of spells using psionic energy. These spells can be countered with dispel magic and similar effects.

The way the game is designed, mechanically they're treated as spells.



And neither can a diviner cause instant-death at any HP level. My point is that it's a powerful inter-character combo that is only enabled by an open-hand monk.


So you're suggesting a multi-class Monk with 2 levels into Wizard for portent?

If so I misunderstood --- I was speaking strictly from an archetype standpoint.

Yes, you could use portent, so long as you can see the creature. That still doesn't have anything to do with a creature with magical resistance having advantage otherwise.



Is that unusual? As far as I'm aware, most martial classes can reliably out-damage single-target attack spells.


They can, but the save DC for resisting the magical effects of instant death are very different than simple damage output.

You don't want your DM handing out instant deaths and waving high CR creature features. They're fundamental to their CR, and having instant death more often than it is designed to occur would be game-breaking.



Right. So in that one specific situation, it might be marginally better. My argument is that that situation is very rare and unusual, and that the benefit when it does come up is very small. Therefore the overall benefit from the ability is insignificant.

[...]

See we're really making the same arguments against one another. I say SAS is only useful in rare and obscure situations. You say QP is only useful in rare and obscure situations.

The difference is that you can change your tactics to favor QP, where you can't with SAS. For example, you can't easily force enemies to group up. Even if you do use the few abilities that let you move your opponents, you'll lose more grouping them up than you gain from AoEing them.

With QP, on the other hand, you can do things like take cover on turns where you activate QP. You can coordinate with your party which enemies to hit. You can easily defeat powerful opponents alone. You can assassinate targets without attracting suspicion.

Yes, QP is situational. However, QP is a unique tool in the Open Hand monk's arsenal. It has a unique effect (instant-death) and a unique delivery method (activate from anywhere within a week). It encourages creative use, and has out-of-combat applications as well. While QP may be situational, open hand already has a variety of general purpose abilities anyway.

SAS, however, is not unique. It competes with Searing Sunburst. A situational ability that competes with another situational ability just makes it all the more niche. Sun Soul monk also does not have much in the way of general purpose abilities. This is what Radiant Sun Bolt is for, but its main benefit, range, is something monks already have a lot of via their mobility, so the benefit is minor.

So I see SAS, an ability that's useful in only a few situations, is obsoleted in many of those situations by Searing Sunburst, and gives a very small benefit the few times it is useful, and is put on an archetype without much general utility, and I see that as an empty level. It could be ok to have a weak situational ability if Radiant Sun Burst was powerful, but unfortunately it's not.

QP is situational, you're right. A lot of people look at it and it seems overpowered without being familiar with creatures. I almost feel bad for players when they find it not working as they'd hoped.

Generally, you wouldn't give up your Stunning Strikes -- Flurry of Blows --> Open Hand Technique, by using QP every other turn... especially when you know the Creature is going to succeed on its throw and even Auto-Succeed when it doesn't.

You can definitely do what you've described and take cover. There's a lot of utility.

Again, over many, many, rounds, you can always just use QP If the enemy attempts to flee, or you need to retreat, and it makes up for every turn that you've given up Stunning Strike and Flurry of Blows.

People often look at its statblock and overestimate the ability. If you're familiar with the CR's then you will know it's not worth spamming.
__________________________

As far as the SS monk, it's not terrible, for the same reasons the EK isn't terrible. People see the spell level and jump to conclusions, or they overestimate abilities like QP.

They also forget that you're playing with an entire party.

I don't see FoB, SAS, or SSB competing all that much. They're all useful in different types of encounters. You use each depending on what you're up against (i.e. the number of creatures you're up against)

SSB is great against hordes of creatures.

SAS can be really great even if you hit 2 creatures. You can set it up to hit much, much more often if you ready actions (with your tank, for example) or immobilize creatures at the right times.

Youre better off using FoB and your mobility against a couple of ranged creatures, or SSB against a large number of ranged creatures.

Even RSB is useful for dealing much more ranged damage than you otherwise would, and with your mobility allows you to completely avoid creatures you don't want to get close to... And you're still essentially using Flurry of Blows while you're at it.

If you want to, you can use Stunning Strike with a melee weapon attack

(Not quite sure why so many people say 'Stunning Fist' and imply an unarmed strike)

[MaxWilson]

It is a good feat... But getting it and choosing Warlock or Wizard will reduce a character's wisdom and/ or constitution since you have to have at least 13 in the casting stat of the class you choose. As well, booming blade and greenflame blade aren't really the best DPR options for a monk, given they are explicitly casting a spell, so they don't count towards allowing the monk to flurry (which deals more damage over all), and since they explicitly have to be made with a weapon, you aren't able to use Stunning Fist. They are okay for more defensive monks (who can take dodge or withdraw as a bonus action to spend their ki), but not exactly all to offensive compared to the base class kit.

You might be thinking of Ritual Caster. Magic Initiate has no stat requirement at all in my copy of the PHB.

If you're Shadow Jumping, you can't Flurry anyway (your bonus action is busy). By 11th level, Greenflame Blade winds up competitive with Flurry damage anyway, especially after you factor in advantage.

Stunning Fist does not require an attack with a weapon, merely a melee weapon attack, and unarmed strikes are melee weapon attacks. See for example the PHB errata (http://media.wizards.com/2015/downloads/dnd/Errata_PH.pdf). Crawford says the same thing here (http://www.sageadvice.eu/2015/09/06/what-specifically-does-melee-weapon-attack-mean/). Clumsy writing on their part but it is what it is--you can Stunning Strike with unarmed attacks, which makes perfect sense BTW.

[Kane0]

For my game I'm thinking of allowing Martial Arts to grant an additional Sunbolt as a bonus action if you use your action on them, much like it does for monk weapon attacks with an unarmed strike. Puts that middle point in between regular action attacks and spending Ki for an extra 2 ala Flurry.
Seem fair?

[JohnDoe]

For my game I'm thinking of allowing Martial Arts to grant an additional Sunbolt as a bonus action if you use your action on them, much like it does for monk weapon attacks with an unarmed strike. Puts that middle point in between regular action attacks and spending Ki for an extra 2 ala Flurry.
Seem fair?

They can already attack and flurry with radiant sun bolt using the martial arts column + dex with proficiency.

The only reason to go into melee is to apply stunning strike, an extra attack, or if you don't want to deal radiant damage.

3 attacks with RSB, 4 in melee

You can use RSB against a creature that is vulnerable to radiant damage, to double the damage (basically 6 attacks).

[SpawnOfMorbo]

As a high level wizard who has heard of shadow monks and is prepared to fight this particular party, there are no shadows in this room and multiple magical light sources of level 4 and above illuminating every point in the room and adjacent rooms.

As a high level wizard who has heard of open hand monks and is prepared to fight this particular party, there's a double deep barrier of mooks from wall to wall and the ceiling is inches above their heads. The open hand monk can't pass through an occupied space. Same for Step of the Wind or Disengage.

If the DM says the wall is unclimbable, because a high-level wizard invested resources and time into making it unclimbable, then it is unclimbable. Maybe it has permanent Grease spells 250 layers deep - whatever you need to hear to imagine a wall that a monk can't run up. The PHB does not say that a monk can run up every wall in the multiverse, it says you can move along vertical surfaces and across liquids - impressive, but not immune to magic.

Good thing my Halfling monk put points in charisma, everyone keeps saying he is 10' tall... ;)

I had a decent charisma and the charlatan background on my last monk :P

[choryukami]

Two words: Laser Bears.

Druid (Moon)/Monk (Sun Soul)

DOOOO ITTT!

[CircuitEngie]

Two words: Laser Bears.

Druid (Moon)/Monk (Sun Soul)

DOOOO ITTT!

Take that thought 2 steps further. Moon Druid 4/Sun Soul Monk 3+ = Shark with frigg'n laser beams.

[SpawnOfMorbo]

Take that thought 2 steps further. Moon Druid 4/Sun Soul Monk 3+ = Shark with frigg'n laser beams.

Obviously you would have to be a sea bass as the sharks are endangered and you wouldn't be able to wildshape into them due to your lack of familiarity.

[SharkForce]

Obviously you would have to be a sea bass as the sharks are endangered and you wouldn't be able to wildshape into them due to your lack of familiarity.

you would also need some barbarian levels (so you can be ill-tempered, of course).

[BladeWing81]

I'm sorry but this thread is totally wrong, the all mighty shadow and open hand monk fail in a very simple way that the sun soul excels, survivability. the sun soul monk can get by easily where the other two struggle which is survivability during the initial levels.
the other two are great and all but they are completely dependent on their Ki to escape from harm and during their initial levels can only do it a couple of times in a fight before running out of ki.
I've recently played in a low magic group (with a couple of magic weapons none of them mine) against ogres on lvl 4, gargoyles at lvl 5, and trolls at lvl 6 with the sun soul monk, on all instances I was a great asset simply because I was always able to attack with little o no risk of getting hit thanks to the sun strikes, at lvl 5 I had no magic weapons and was still able to beat gargoyles and being able to spend all of my ki on flurry of blows on them instead doing only two attacks then spend ki points to either use dodge or disengage. and even with no ki I was still able to hit two ranged attacks each turn without fear of getting killed. then at level 6 with the burning hands I was able to prevent the trolls from regenerating. any other subclass could only sustain attacks for only a couple of turns before running out of ki and then just stay on the sidelines with nothing to do except maybe use short or longbow.
-shadow monks need darkness to do their combat teleport but that's not always available.
-open hand monks need to use flurry of blow to get their tricks in so if he's out of ki, he's out of luck.
-sun soul will always be able to attack and still be able to do his job of putting the mage out of commission.
from my experience the true power of the sun soul monk is his ability to not only survive when he's out of ki when other subclasses are dead in the water but also he's able to use his ki 100% on damaging opponents instead of having to use it to avoid attacks without any help from Feats.

[CantigThimble]

That's a good point, the ability to channel more damage onto the 20 ac fighter or the raging barbarian gives some nice resource efficiency.

[MaxWilson]

I'm sorry but this thread is totally wrong, the all mighty shadow and open hand monk fail in a very simple way that the sun soul excels, survivability. the sun soul monk can get by easily where the other two struggle which is survivability during the initial levels.
the other two are great and all but they are completely dependent on their Ki to escape from harm and during their initial levels can only do it a couple of times in a fight before running out of ki.
I've recently played in a low magic group (with a couple of magic weapons none of them mine) against ogres on lvl 4, gargoyles at lvl 5, and trolls at lvl 6 with the sun soul monk, on all instances I was a great asset simply because I was always able to attack with little o no risk of getting hit thanks to the sun strikes, at lvl 5 I had no magic weapons and was still able to beat gargoyles and being able to spend all of my ki on flurry of blows on them instead doing only two attacks then spend ki points to either use dodge or disengage. and even with no ki I was still able to hit two ranged attacks each turn without fear of getting killed. then at level 6 with the burning hands I was able to prevent the trolls from regenerating. any other subclass could only sustain attacks for only a couple of turns before running out of ki and then just stay on the sidelines with nothing to do except maybe use short or longbow.
-shadow monks need darkness to do their combat teleport but that's not always available.
-open hand monks need to use flurry of blow to get their tricks in so if he's out of ki, he's out of luck.
-sun soul will always be able to attack and still be able to do his job of putting the mage out of commission.
from my experience the true power of the sun soul monk is his ability to not only survive when he's out of ki when other subclasses are dead in the water but also he's able to use his ki 100% on damaging opponents instead of having to use it to avoid attacks without any help from Feats.

When not expending ki and in bright sunlight, a low- to mid-level Sun Soul Monk and a Wood Elf Shadow (or whatever) Monk with a longbow are indistinguishable except that the Shadow Monk has better range and does more damage. Sun Soul: 2 attacks at 30' for d6+Dex. Longbow Monk: 2 attacks at 150'/600' for d8+Dex.

Longbow monk has the edge there, and in fact that is precisely what most monks that I've seen at the table do: hang back and use missile weapons most of the time, frequently with poison.

[BladeWing81]

When not expending ki and in bright sunlight, a low- to mid-level Sun Soul Monk and a Wood Elf Shadow (or whatever) Monk with a longbow are indistinguishable except that the Shadow Monk has better range and does more damage. Sun Soul: 2 attacks at 30' for d6+Dex. Longbow Monk: 2 attacks at 150'/600' for d8+Dex.

Longbow monk has the edge there, and in fact that is precisely what most monks that I've seen at the table do: hang back and use missile weapons most of the time, frequently with poison.

I would argue that a Wood elf Sun soul monk could do the same with the longbow AND also hit with their sun lasers against magic resistant creatures if needed. The premise of this thread is that the sun monk is awful because his abilities are niche which is simply not true, granted I do think the last ability is junk compared to the other subclasses death punches. But as a whole I've had a lot more fun with this subclass than any other simply because I'm still useful once my ki runs out. Before the sun soul monk came in I did the same with a bow, and it felt lame! It feels so cheated to not be able to do anything else except just 2 basic attacks that frankly don't have anything to do with being a monk.

[JohnDoe]

I would argue that a Wood elf Sun soul monk could do the same with the longbow AND also hit with their sun lasers against magic resistant creatures if needed. The premise of this thread is that the sun monk is awful because his abilities are niche which is simply not true, granted I do think the last ability is junk compared to the other subclasses death punches. But as a whole I've had a lot more fun with this subclass than any other simply because I'm still useful once my ki runs out. Before the sun soul monk came in I did the same with a bow, and it felt lame! It feels so cheated to not be able to do anything else except just 2 basic attacks that frankly don't have anything to do with being a monk.

If it sounds too good to be true, it usually is. QP is not a great combat ability. It has some very useful utility for role playing, it can be used after a failed encounter if you have to retreat or the creature flees... And you have a small chance or 'winning' anyway.

Quivering Palm is a very easy save. By the Time you get it, the creatures you'd want to use it against would practically have to roll a 1, have advantage, 3 auto saves per day, and you need to spend 2 rounds for each attempt.

Other Con Saves are AOE, or a bonus effect on top of a spell that can be used every single round. The more saves, the more likely the spell will have some effect. QP is one creature, every other round, and if instant death is a big payoff (the creature has enough hit points that it significantly shortens the fight) then it's simply not going to happen. You might finish a lower CR creature one turn earlier.


You're much better off locking down multiple targets, or even a single target, with multiple stunning strike saves every single round. If the targets are low enough CR that you will take them out with QP, you'll be able to finish them in 2 rounds anyway.

...if you're doing damage with flurries in the mean time, which you should be doing to help kill this creature, you'll be out of Ki in about 5 attempts or less.

You give up your stunning strikes and monk utility for an average of 6.5 DPR... Which is a whopping bonus of +32 damage over 5 attempts (10 rounds) having burnt your Ki going for a Hail Mary.

And by 10 rounds the creature should be more than dead... Your party would be a lot more appreciative of utilizing your other monk abilities.

[Sindeloke]

I've never seen Quivering Palm used in combat, but it's great fun for manipulating weak enemies. You use it to cause one mook to die horribly, then hit a second mook with it and promise you'll end the effect harmlessly if they help you in some way (tell you where the bodies are hidden, show you the secret entrance, etc.). It's almost certainly overkill, but it's also hilarious.

And this is where I finally have to concede that Xena is an Open Hand monk with Tavern Brawler rather than a fighter with same. Although QP doesn't immobilize like the neck pinch does...

Anyway as far as Sun Souls go, this is another reason that the "unarmed strike" mechanic is deeply stupid unnecessarily complex, compared to just saying "all humanoids have a Slam natural weapon, they aren't automatically proficient in it, all natural weapons are monk weapons." You could then just do a Sun Soul's laser beam thusly: "You gain a new ranged natural weapon, a bolt of spiritual radiance that deals d6 damage to a creature within 30/90 feet." No question whether it scales or works with extra attack, because it's a weapon. It uses your Dex, because it's a monk weapon. It automatically enables flurries without any need for special ki rules, because it's a monk weapon. It's clear which feats it favors and it synergizes with the sort of fighter/ranger/rogue dips you want a monk to synergize with, because it's a weapon.

Add in the brilliant (heh, no pun intended) blinding ability in place of burning hands and add some kind of utility here and there (leaving a wall of fire in your wake to play up the monk's controller role or some kind of phoenix-like flight or revivify thing at high levels) and you've got a competitive subclass.

[JohnDoe]

And this is where I finally have to concede that Xena is an Open Hand monk with Tavern Brawler rather than a fighter with same. Although QP doesn't immobilize like the neck pinch does...

Anyway as far as Sun Souls go, this is another reason that the "unarmed strike" mechanic is deeply stupid unnecessarily complex, compared to just saying "all humanoids have a Slam natural weapon, they aren't automatically proficient in it, all natural weapons are monk weapons." You could then just do a Sun Soul's laser beam thusly: "You gain a new ranged natural weapon, a bolt of spiritual radiance that deals d6 damage to a creature within 30/90 feet." No question whether it scales or works with extra attack, because it's a weapon. It uses your Dex, because it's a monk weapon. It automatically enables flurries without any need for special ki rules, because it's a monk weapon. It's clear which feats it favors and it synergizes with the sort of fighter/ranger/rogue dips you want a monk to synergize with, because it's a weapon.

Add in the brilliant (heh, no pun intended) blinding ability in place of burning hands and add some kind of utility here and there (leaving a wall of fire in your wake to play up the monk's controller role or some kind of phoenix-like flight or revivify thing at high levels) and you've got a competitive subclass.

If you want to Homebrew, I'd start with converting their 'spell casting' into Spell Points

Dungeon Master's Guide
Page 288
____________________________
You'll find the SS Monk 'spell slot level' to be close to the progression of the EK & AT.

SS allows you to cast burning hands up to 9th level -- *as a bonus action.*


@20
Spell points for 2x 9th burning hands = 26
Spell points for 6x 3rd level fireball = 30
+lvl 1 burning hands = 32

The spell points are close to that of the Warlock (28), which makes sense considering the monk recovers Ki after a 30 minute rest (short rest is at least 60), similar to the warlock.
________________
You could also use the "Way Of The Four Elements" which I believe reaches 5th level @ 17 (Cone of Cold). They can only be cast up to 5th level as an action. 4 spells to choose from.

Progression is the same as the Paladin.

5x 3rd level fireball = 25 spell points.
That's about the best you're going to get. Most will end up 20-25 spell points.

[MaxWilson]

I would argue that a Wood elf Sun soul monk could do the same with the longbow AND also hit with their sun lasers against magic resistant creatures if needed. The premise of this thread is that the sun monk is awful because his abilities are niche which is simply not true, granted I do think the last ability is junk compared to the other subclasses death punches. But as a whole I've had a lot more fun with this subclass than any other simply because I'm still useful once my ki runs out. Before the sun soul monk came in I did the same with a bow, and it felt lame! It feels so cheated to not be able to do anything else except just 2 basic attacks that frankly don't have anything to do with being a monk.

That's not a game balance argument, that's a Rule of Cool argument. I've said over and over that if you happen to find laser monks cool, you should play them, no matter how mediocre the rest of us think they are.

I'm going to quote Steve Brust once again:


The Cool Stuff Theory of Literature is as follows: All literature consists of whatever the writer thinks is cool. The reader will like the book to the degree that he agrees with the writer about what's cool. And that works all the way from the external trappings to the level of metaphor, subtext, and the way one uses words. In other words, I happen not to think that full-plate armor and great big honking greatswords are cool. I don't like 'em. I like cloaks and rapiers. So I write stories with a lot of cloaks and rapiers in 'em, 'cause that's cool. Guys who like military hardware, who think advanced military hardware is cool, are not gonna jump all over my books, because they have other ideas about what's cool.

The novel should be understood as a structure built to accommodate the greatest possible amount of cool stuff.

Same applies to D&D, only the players and the DM are collectively both the "reader" and the "writer." Your game should accommodate the greatest possible amount of stuff you collectively think is cool. For me, this means that it's irrelevant whether clerics are underpowered or overpowered--they're not cool, so I won't play them. For you, this means Laser Monks are cool. Good enough.

[Arc-Royal]

I'll give you a mathematical analysis. The opportunity cost for using it is three attacks. Two from the Bonus action you're using instead of Flurry of Blows, and one for the extra attack from your next turn's flurry of blows that you could've spent the second point of ki on. With 20 DEX and a d6 weapon die, that's 25.5 before magic weapons. Since Burning Hands does 3d6 per target, you'd have to hit at least three enemies to match Flurry of Blows, and four enemies to exceed it. Fitting four enemies in that small of an area is a ridiculously obscure situation.

Something worth considering: your FoB attacks are contested by the enemy's AC, while Burning Hands is save-for-half, so when you take AC and DEX saves into account, the expected damage isn't going to be the full 25.5 you're quoting. For the sake of easier calculations, if we assume you miss half the time against your enemy and that they pass their save half the time, you're looking at an expected damage from your attacks to be 12.25 based on the number you gave, while Burning Hands would have an expected damage of 7.875 per target, requiring just two targets to exceed the damage of your FoB attacks. It'll certainly fall off later as your damage die increases for your unarmed attacks, and of course depends massively on the AC and DEX save of your target(s), but what happens when you miss shouldn't be discounted. You can't expect that you'll hit all the time--especially if your dice are trying to kill you like mine.

[JohnDoe]

That's not a game balance argument, that's a Rule of Cool argument. I've said over and over that if you happen to find laser monks cool, you should play them, no matter how mediocre the rest of us think they are.

I'm going to quote Steve Brust once again:


Same applies to D&D, only the players and the DM are collectively both the "reader" and the "writer." Your game should accommodate the greatest possible amount of stuff you collectively think is cool. For me, this means that it's irrelevant whether clerics are underpowered or overpowered--they're not cool, so I won't play them. For you, this means Laser Monks are cool. Good enough.

That's true, I've had players running EK disappointed by the fact that it's arguably better that they just stick with a crossbow, than picking up ranged Cantrips.

We could fluff bonded weapons however we'd like --- yes it still has weight and it's piercing, but the mechanics are what's important. The names are merely there to provide imagery.

If you pick up Entangle, it doesn't have to take the form of 'grasping weeds or vines' --- they could be ghastly hands reaching up and seizing creatures, or seemingly divine chains of light that leap from the floor.

Even class abilities like 'Rage' or 'Intimidating Presence' could be fluffed into anything to fit the character.

[Tanarii]

That's true, I've had players running EK disappointed by the fact that it's arguably better that they just stick with a crossbow, than picking up ranged Cantrips.Unless they're doing an Int-dump GISH or an Archer build, that's not going to be the case. Dex 8 or 10 Longbow attack isn't going to beat an Int 18 or 20 Cantrip for the bog-standard Str/Int EK build.

[JohnDoe]

Unless they're doing an Int-dump GISH or an Archer build, that's not going to be the case. Dex 8 or 10 Longbow attack isn't going to beat an Int 18 or 20 Cantrip for the bog-standard Str/Int EK build.

The character was dex based. Didn't want to wear plate or have disadvantage on stealth.

[Citan]

Hi all!

Happy new year to Gianttip forumers :)

I've been away from a long time because of work, but couldn't resist today to join into the fray on this particular topic.

So, jumping into the discussion (didn't read quite all posts so maybe it will be redundant -hope not-)...

To those that find the abilities useless, especially comparing Radiant Sun Bolt to ranged attacks (@Strill) or being Shadow/Warlock (@RulesJD)...

1. Ranged attacks : confer the discussion with Sharkforce. Nothing much to add except that...
- RSB ups as an Unarmed Strike, meaning you match a Ranger's ranged weapon proficiencies at the end
- It effectively boosts further your mobility (good for those who don't take Mobile or want to stay close to an ally instead of jumping into the fray).
- As said already, it's synergizing with Spell Sniper. Not a good choice for a pure Monk though (unless niche build favoring fluff), but may be worth a cent in multiclass with other classes.
- It's usable in ALL situations (including when you're naked, in prison, or who knows what... MANY rp applications for a monk here ^^).

2. Shadow Monk / Warlock
Sorry, but it's really NOT a good idea, because it's too MAD. You need DEX (for normal attacks) + WIS (Stun) + CON (as always) + CHA (for EB).
As demonstrated by Gnomes2169 and others, you globally lose out because whatever option you choose, the stat attack will be too low to really make it good, since you'll miss much more often that a pure Sunsoul monk or Warlock.

With that said, there IS a very specific multiclass combo that would be nice if your DM considers the Unearthed Arcana variants.

Monk X : for classic Monk goodies and archetype abilities.
Warlock Undying 1+ : to get free Sacred Flame and Light AND +CHA damage to Fire and Radiant (perfect with Sun Soul). Take Green Flame Blade to be able to do Stunning Strike AND deal good fire damage, or Booming Blade to get another chance at immobilizing enemy although it's not as good. Pick EB if you really want (but redundant) or Minor Illusion for fun and utility. Take Hex obviously and another one for spells.
For invocations, depends on the rest of the build, but most Invocations are useful.
Basic build: Warlock 3 Chain / Monk 17: you keep nearly all the greatness of the Monk, and get nice Invocation, bonus CHA damage on all your archetype abilities, and Hex + Mirror Image for added protection and damage.


You can even go Warlock 3 Tome or Nature Cleric 1+ or Druid 1+ to get Shillelagh and other goodies (I'd prefer Cleric for Shield of Faith and fluff compatibility) if you don't plan on using SRB at all.
This way you "only" need to max WIS and CHA, since quarterstaff is a Monk weapon you can still use all your Monk abilities.
Problem is, your CON and DEX will be moderate at best. Not so great a problem though:
- Evasion will reduce the damage of DEX-save spells.
- You will generally stay mid-range, only closing in for occasional Stun strikes, so you shouldn't be so often hit (and

You can then add things to the mix to tweak depending on WIS/CHA stats and playstyles...

Life Cleric 1 : if you also took Druid (for super Healing Berries and other things)

Nature Cleric 8 : Spirit Guardians (empowered with warlock bonus) + 1d8 fire damage on melee attacks and other goodies.

Moon Druid ? Don't remember if you can use Monk abilities when Wildshaped...

Draconic Sorcerer : Sorcerer goodies (Twin cantrips... Not sure if you could twin RSB by RAW, it's a "spell attack", is it a spell ? Otherwise "Distant" and "Heightened") and yet another CHA extra damage to fire spells + decent AC.

Shadow Sorcerer 1-6 : Sorcerer goodies + hound to ensure your spells hit.

Paladin 1-7 : no need to explain I think ;)

I'd really like to play a build such as one of these when I have a chance to...

Undying Warlock 3: all described above with a choice of pact and invocations (Tome + Shillelagh not strictly required since RBS rely on DEX).
Draconic Sorcerer 3 : for "Tough", AC and Metamagic.
Sun Soul Monk 14+ : because it's the topic here. ^^
>>>Simple build, I'd play as the usual Sun Monk (including the "all save proficiency", except that I'd use RSB as a basis, and sometimes using Hex to up the damage (and help Stun) or GFB to damage & stun one enemy while keeping good damage, putting Mirror Image if needed, replenishing spell slots or sorcery points if needed. Either balance DEX, WIS and CHA or favor one (WIS for Monk abilities, DEX for melee/RSB attacks, CHA for specific spells and bonus damage).



Paladin 6 (any archetype, although I'd love Devotion here for the CHA bonus to hit) for smite, spells and protection.
Warlock Undying 1-2.
(Draconic Sorcerer 1).
Sun Soul 10+
>>> Not optimum, but close enough to a Jedi Knight mixed with Dragon Ball ^^ : guy in simple clothes making prowesses with bare hands and stick.

DEX and CHA first, WIS 16+: you're not a real Monk here, more a "4e hybrid", but you can still use Stunning Fist with the help of Hex.


OR WIS alternative ;)

Nature Cleric 6 (for Spirit Guardians, Shillelagh and Dampen Elements if you want to protect you and others)
Undying Warlock Chain 3 (Invocations) : Chain because you already have Shillelagh and Blade not interesting at low level, take Free Mage Armor invocation if worth it.
Sun Soul Monk 11
>>> Play as a Monk (max WIS or DEX depending on melee or ranged orientation, CHA at least 16 for the build to be worth it). For difficult fights you can...
- use warlock slots to cast Mirror Image if needed,
- use lvl3 Cleric Slot for Spirit Guardians or
- user lvl 1 Cleric Slot for Shield of Faith.


Ok, these are not "optimal builds" for a DPR min-maxer by far, but these should be versatile enough to have fun with without being underpowered. :)
Anyway, I think that this UA's Warlock variant is too front-loaded, but well... :)



As for Searing Arc Smite...
- It makes one more reason to up WIS in priority since you now have a nice way to deal AOE damage. And, in a group, you will often prefer max WIS first because 1) your main role is to stun and 2) you'll have probably (in a normal, balanced party) an ally helping you hit the enemy (debuff, provide advantage to you, prone enemy etc). I obviously wouldn't say that for a solo character or Monk in a party having dedicated stunner/debuffer, who would obviously prefer maxing DEX first.
But seriously, a "main" Monk who never maxes WIS because "it's useless" just doesn't understand the class's job and abilities (except Shadow Monk multiclassed with Rogue maybe). ^^
- Since you're mobile, you'll have occasions where you can make good use of it, and it's more adaptable than its Elemental Monk counterpart.
- What I personally don't like though it's that you have to use it AFTER AN ATTACK action. That's a real draw-back to me, although coherent with the fluff.

But, hey, all in all, I'd say Sun Soul can be very fun to play with, even as a pure class, although it's probably more difficult to exploit than Shadow (tactic or preparation needed) and Open Hand (easiest).



As far as the SS monk, it's not terrible, for the same reasons the EK isn't terrible. People see the spell level and jump to conclusions, or they overestimate abilities like QP.

They also forget that you're playing with an entire party.

I don't see FoB, SAS, or SSB competing all that much. They're all useful in different types of encounters. You use each depending on what you're up against (i.e. the number of creatures you're up against)

Allow me to quote a hint of wisdom that sooo many people seems to forget the instant they start a theorycraft discussion...

Between the teamplay you can devise with allies to lure enemies into a point and the variety of landscape situations (not all fights take place in big, open spaces normally) I really don't see how one could say that these abilities are "niche". XD


Thanks for reading. :)

[BladeWing81]

Being perfectly honest, the only down side of the sun soul monk if that his searing strikes can only use Dexterity instead of being able to choose either Dex or Str like the Martial arts feature. Because of this, the giants strength belts which are basically one of the few useful items for Monks that help on their unarmed attacks are almost wasted on the sun soul monk except when melee attacking. other than that I truly think this subclass is the better version of what they intended to do with the 4 element monk but failed horribly.

[Citan]

Being perfectly honest, the only down side of the sun soul monk if that his searing strikes can only use Dexterity instead of being able to choose either Dex or Str like the Martial arts feature. Because of this, the giants strength belts which are basically one of the few useful items for Monks that help on their unarmed attacks are almost wasted on the sun soul monk except when melee attacking. other than that I truly think this subclass is the better version of what they intended to do with the 4 element monk but failed horribly.
You're right, didn't think about that. To be honest though, most Monks still favor DEX over STR. :)

What I regret for myself is that you couldn't choose between DEX or WIS, although that may have been a bit too powerful... :)

[Zalabim]

All those Undying Light multiclasses tend to run into the problem that the damage boost only works on spells you cast. Of the Sun Soul features, it only works on Burning Hands. Of the others, it probably only works once, on casting, like the dragon sorcerer and evocation wizard features. It's UA, after all. It also probably won't see print like that, just because it's more relevant to dip features and not relevant enough to actual warlock features.

[BladeWing81]

You're right, didn't think about that. To be honest though, most Monks still favor DEX over STR. :)

What I regret for myself is that you couldn't choose between DEX or WIS, although that may have been a bit too powerful... :)

Usually yes, Dex is the norm but when you're a lvl 12 monk and you get a belt of fire giant for 25 str, your unarmed attacks become +11 hit / 1d8+7 damage each. after that you change you mind about Strength for monks.

I only wish they made equivalent items for Dexterity. are there no monsters that equal giants in dexterity?
IE:
Dexterity Items
Ring of the mongoose 18
Gloves of the Wind Cobra 21
Gloves of the Fire Boa 23
Gloves of the Lightning Viper 25

Can't do higher since Dex would be super OP after 25.

[MaxWilson]

Usually yes, Dex is the norm but when you're a lvl 12 monk and you get a belt of fire giant for 25 str, your unarmed attacks become +11 hit / 1d8+7 damage each. after that you change you mind about Strength for monks.

I only wish they made equivalent items for Dexterity. are there no monsters that equal giants in dexterity?
IE:
Dexterity Items
Ring of the mongoose 18
Gloves of the Wind Cobra 21
Gloves of the Fire Boa 23
Gloves of the Lightning Viper 25

Can't do higher since Dex would be super OP after 25.

Str is a fundamentally different kind of attribute than Dexterity. It's easy to imagine a hundred-foot-tall giant who is a thousand times stronger than a human being. If a human can lift 20 pounds without strain, the giant can lift 20,000 pounds without straint.

It's not so easy to imagine something which is a thousand times more "dextrous" than a human being, whatever that means.

[BladeWing81]

Str is a fundamentally different kind of attribute than Dexterity. It's easy to imagine a hundred-foot-tall giant who is a thousand times stronger than a human being. If a human can lift 20 pounds without strain, the giant can lift 20,000 pounds without straint.

It's not so easy to imagine something which is a thousand times more "dextrous" than a human being, whatever that means.

Why wouldn't be easy? it's a fantasy game. there's rust monsters, zombie beholders, piercers and gigantic dragons. Something that can move really fast or moves like an expert parkour is not really a stretch. Here!

Elemental Cats!!
Water Puma Str 12 Dex 18
Fire Lion Str 16 Dex 21
Lightning Cheeta Str 14 Dex 23

I even understand that you would need to set a limit because Dexterity is really useful for other abilities and skills and AC in the case of a lot PCs that don't use armor.

[LordVonDerp]

(also, no there aren't items that boost unarmed strikes. there is *one* item, and it is not found in the DMG, but in an adventure that many people will never run, or read, or own, or use).


There are magic weapons. Their bonuses still apply to unarmed strikes.

[joaber]

There are magic weapons. Their bonuses still apply to unarmed strikes.

how the bonus of magic weapons apply if you're not using the weapon?

[BladeWing81]

how the bonus of magic weapons apply if you're not using the weapon?

this has been discussed on another thread before, there is only 1 item that directly boosts your unarmed attacks and that is the "insignia of claws" from the hoard of the dragon Queen other than that there are only items that boost either Dex or Str.

Ioun Stone of agility +2 Dex
Manual of Quickness of action +2 Dex

Manual of Gainful Exercise +2 Str
Gauntlet of ogre Strength Str = 19
Belt of Giant Strength
Hill Giant STR = 21
Stone/Frost Giant STR =23
Fire Giant STR =25
Cloud Giant STR =27
Storm Giant STR =29

There are more options for boosting Strength which limits a lot what you can do for the sun soul monk in that aspect.

[LordVonDerp]

how the bonus of magic weapons apply if you're not using the weapon?
That's how Monks work

[BladeWing81]

That's how Monks work

no they don't, the magic weapons only work when you wield them on an attack
if the monk does 4 attacks (2 from the attack action and 2 from flurry of blows) and you have a +1 short sword, only the first 2 attacks will have the weapon bonus, the other 2 will only be normal unarmed attacks.

[LordVonDerp]

no they don't, the magic weapons only work when you wield them on an attack
if the monk does 4 attacks (2 from the attack action and 2 from flurry of blows) and you have a +1 short sword, only the first 2 attacks will have the weapon bonus, the other 2 will only be normal unarmed attacks.

So the magic weapons get bonuses when I use them to attack, and Monks can make unarmed attacks with Monk weapons, yet those attacks don't get the bonus? That seems like a weird oversight in the rules.

[Xethik]

So the magic weapons get bonuses when I use them to attack, and Monks can make unarmed attacks with Monk weapons, yet those attacks don't get the bonus? That seems like a weird oversight in the rules.

Monks can't make unarmed attacks with Monk weapon. The bonus action attacks from Flurry of Blows must be with Unarmed Strikes. You cannot use just any Monk weapon.

Unless I am misunderstanding what you are saying...

[LordVonDerp]

Monks can't make unarmed attacks with Monk weapon. The bonus action attacks from Flurry of Blows must be with Unarmed Strikes. You cannot use just any Monk weapon.

Unless I am misunderstanding what you are saying...

Yes. Unarmed strikes made wielding monk weapons.

[Xethik]

Yes. Unarmed strikes made wielding monk weapons.
I'm confused. Unarmed Strikes are not Monk weapons. Attacks made with Monk weapons are not Unarmed Strikes. Do you agree with this?

"When you attack with a Monk weapon or unarmed strike, you can make one unarmed strike as a bonus action."

Unarmed Strikes != Monk Weapon Attack.

[SharkForce]

Yes. Unarmed strikes made wielding monk weapons.

the monk does not get any ability to use weapons to perform unarmed strikes. they get the ability to use monk weapons for various martial arts abilities, including using the higher die if applicable. nowhere does it say that they can replace a regular unarmed attack with an attack that uses a monk weapon.

that would certainly be nice, and in my opinion an improvement on the monk class as a whole (there are plenty of what i would consider monks in various stories in various mediums that make little if any use of unarmed strikes and focus primarily or even exclusively on some form of weapon, especially spears and swords, for example).

but it isn't how monks actually work.

[LordVonDerp]

I'm confused. Unarmed Strikes are not Monk weapons. Attacks made with Monk weapons are not Unarmed Strikes. Do you agree with this?

"When you attack with a Monk weapon or unarmed strike, you can make one unarmed strike as a bonus action."

Unarmed Strikes != Monk Weapon Attack.
If you make an unarmed attack with a hand that is holding a weapon then you won't be hitting them with jst your hand, you will hit them with the pommel, the crossguard, or the handguard, all of which still get the magic weapon bonuses.



This is also all assuming you don't just enchant your fists instead.

[EvilAnagram]

If you make an unarmed attack with a hand that is holding a weapon then you won't be hitting them with jst your hand, you will hit them with the pommel, the crossguard, or the handguard, all of which still get the magic weapon bonuses.



This is also all assuming you don't just enchant your fists instead.

Monsieur von Derp, I regret to inform you that using part of the weapon makes it an armed strike. At best, it's an improvised weapon strike, not an unarmed strike. There also exists no mechanic by which you might enchant your fists, which is probably why monk fists deal magical bludgeoning damage after a certain level.

[MaxWilson]

Why wouldn't be easy? it's a fantasy game. there's rust monsters, zombie beholders, piercers and gigantic dragons. Something that can move really fast or moves like an expert parkour is not really a stretch. Here!

Elemental Cats!!
Water Puma Str 12 Dex 18
Fire Lion Str 16 Dex 21
Lightning Cheeta Str 14 Dex 23

I even understand that you would need to set a limit because Dexterity is really useful for other abilities and skills and AC in the case of a lot PCs that don't use armor.

That doesn't meet the requirement. Describe something like an elemental cat in a way which persuades everybody that it's a thousand times more dexterous than a human.

[BladeWing81]

That doesn't meet the requirement. Describe something like an elemental cat in a way which persuades everybody that it's a thousand times more dexterous than a human.

In the words of the great and beautiful Lucy lawless:
"Ah, yeah. Well, whenever you notice something like that, a wizard did it."

[SharkForce]

solars are dex 22. empyreans are dex 21. will o' the wisp are dex 29.

unfortunately, that appears to be all of the superhumany dextrous creatures in the current MM, and nothing about will o' the wisps makes me imagine super dexterity.

perhaps most unfortunately, the creatures that i would have suggested could be superhumanly dextrous (air elementals, water elementals) are only at the high end of human dexterity.

i mean, i have no idea how a human can be as dextrous as an air elemental (which is literally made of air and should be able to move in ways that are not humanly possible) without the use of magic, but they can.

but in any event, you could have something of the will o' the wisp.

[EvilAnagram]

i mean, i have no idea how a human can be as dextrous as an air elemental (which is literally made of air and should be able to move in ways that are not humanly possible) without the use of magic, but they can.

There's a Your Mom joke in there.

[BladeWing81]

solars are dex 22. empyreans are dex 21. will o' the wisp are dex 29.

unfortunately, that appears to be all of the superhumany dextrous creatures in the current MM, and nothing about will o' the wisps makes me imagine super dexterity.

perhaps most unfortunately, the creatures that i would have suggested could be superhumanly dextrous (air elementals, water elementals) are only at the high end of human dexterity.

i mean, i have no idea how a human can be as dextrous as an air elemental (which is literally made of air and should be able to move in ways that are not humanly possible) without the use of magic, but they can.

but in any event, you could have something of the will o' the wisp.

This is a fantasy game, how can a magical belt that makes you as strong as a 26 feet tall giant be easy to see and understand and accept but a glove or an orb or something that can make you move with incredible quickness and dexterity be completely out of the realm of comprehension?

Angel Crowns
Crown of the Deva Dex = 18
Crown of the Planetar Dex = 20
Crown of the Solar Dex = 22

I wouldn't make a magical item that could give you above 25 dexterity, it would be incredibly broken because dexterity is used for a lot of stuff other than attacking like AC (a Wis 20 monk could have 24 AC using a magical item with 29 Dex), acrobatics, sleight of hands and stealth, where as Strength only give you athletics