Beholder in a 3rd-level party - what's the worst that could happen?

[Quertus]

How bad could it be to have a beholder - with a -10 penalty to attacks, saving throws, and skill checks - adventuring with other 3rd level characters?

I'm told that, in pathfinder, a creatures ECL is equal to its CR. Makes sense, from a war gaming perspective, and from the PoV of the "same game" argument.

I also have a house rule, that I'm told has a RAW equivalent (can anyone confirm this?), that, if your race is X levels above the party, you can play with the equivalent penalties of X negative levels - -X to attack, skill checks, and saving throws.

Putting these together, I developed the test case of the beholder in the 3rd level party. Is it broken? And, if so, why?

[Segev]

Ludicrously so, because a beholder's power doesn't come from hit points, saving throws, or attack bonus, but rather from having 10 powerful magical rays as attacks every round as free actions usable once each.

[ExLibrisMortis]

The variant rule sounds like the Player's Guide to Faerûn rule (page 190). Apart from the -1 to pretty much all d20 rolls (attack rolls, skill checks, ability checks, saves, level checks (incl. caster level checks)), it also calls for -1 to the DC of any spell you cast, and -1 to any constant armour bonus from race (such as natural armour).

That said, beholders still get many more actions per round than most creatures, and they have access to the Beholder Mage PrC, which means you won't be able to control their power by the time they hit fifth level or so, because they'll be bypassing all the penalties by summoning and buffing.

[Aharon]

Ludicrously so, because a beholder's power doesn't come from hit points, saving throws, or attack bonus, but rather from having 10 powerful magical rays as attacks every round as free actions usable once each.

I actually wouldn't say ludicrously so. The rays still have to hit - the -10 penalty leaves the beholder with a -1 penalty overall, and it can only target a maximum of three eye stalks in one direction. This is still pretty strong (~83% chance that at least one ray hits touch AC 10). I would consider a higher penalty (-15) to hits (~57% chance that at least one ray hits).

I would also significantly lower its hp, so that it is in line with a 3rd level character.

This new beholder can still shine in situations where it is able to use all 10 eye stalks pointing in different directions, but those situations don't come up too often.

The central eye is also pretty strong.
Maybe allow it with the back story that the beholder failed at the ritual to become a beholder mage, so he put out his central magic eye, but wasn't able to access the PrC (and won't be able to do so in the future)...

[Xervous]

I actually wouldn't say ludicrously so. The rays still have to hit - the -10 penalty leaves the beholder with a -1 penalty overall, and it can only target a maximum of three eye stalks in one direction. This is still pretty strong (~83% chance that at least one ray hits touch AC 10). I would consider a higher penalty (-15) to hits (~57% chance that at least one ray hits).

I would also significantly lower its hp, so that it is in line with a 3rd level character.

This new beholder can still shine in situations where it is able to use all 10 eye stalks pointing in different directions, but those situations don't come up too often.

The central eye is also pretty strong.
Maybe allow it with the back story that the beholder failed at the ritual to become a beholder mage, so he put out his central magic eye, but wasn't able to access the PrC (and won't be able to do so in the future)...

Using a simple interpretation of the 90º arc separation for the eye rays the beholder could fire 3, move and change his facing, fire another 3, move again and fire 3 more... plus the last ray somewhere else in there because he's bound to find an angle to use it at.

[Aharon]

Using a simple interpretation of the 90º arc separation for the eye rays the beholder could fire 3, move and change his facing, fire another 3, move again and fire 3 more... plus the last ray somewhere else in there because he's bound to find an angle to use it at.

I held this interpretation in the past. Cog convinced me it is wrong in this discussion: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?196301-Beholder-Tactic-(Sanity-Check)

[AvatarVecna]

Are we talking 3.5? Because if so, you need to ban Beholder Mage or watch as the game completely falls apart. If the player specifically asked to play a Beholder in a low-level game, there's a good chance they're aiming for Beholder Mage, although it's hardly a guarantee (some people like weird character concepts); if the player was offered a Gauth (Lesser Beholder) and rejected it for not being a "real Beholder", you are virtually guaranteed to have a Beholder Mage on your team soon; if the player's backstory or initial acts in-game involve gouging out the Beholder's central eye, please tell them that Beholder Mage is banned in your game (if it's a backstory thing, they likely told you it's because they don't want to be overpowered with an antimagic eye, but this is in all likelyhood a complete fabrication).

EDIT: I'm only asking whether it's 3.5 or PF because the OP mentions PF in a tangential way, and there's no PF tag. Needless to say, the above can be ignored if this is about Pathfinder Beholders, which don't have quite the same broken BS available that 3.5 had.

[ManicOppressive]

Yeah, if this is 3.5, this is no bueno. Beholders are broken even in high-level campaigns--they will absolutely wreck low-level ones.

[MisterKaws]

Give him a Spectator(LoM) instead: if he refuses, that means he's aiming for a Beholder Mage, just tell him that it's forbidden; if he accepts, then it's fine, just put him at ECL 6(+2 LA) I think, maybe even 5(+1 LA), as they don't give beholderkin's LA, then you just count him as a lvl 6 or 5 for distributing XP, the players will eventually catch up and then he can just advance as some class.

[Der_DWSage]

Let's actually examine this from the opposite direction. Would you allow a 3rd level Commoner in the party, if he could also cast Charm Person, Charm Monster, Disintegrate, Fear, Finger of Death, Flesh to Stone, Inflict Moderate Wounds, Sleep, Slow, and Telekinesis at will, in addition to being able to make a 150-foot Antimagic Cone just by looking in that general direction? And let's not forget to mention that our Super-Commoner is also able to fly, permanently.

Now add in that our Super-Commoner can also do three of these things in any given round, in addition to having access to the most powerful prestige class in the game.

It's not reasonable on any level, is what I'm getting at.

[Quertus]

Thanks for all the responses! I guess I should have been clearer about my system: you have to spend the next X levels buying off the penalty, so that, by the time it would normally be a legitimate character, the character is the same as you would expect. So no beholder mage for another 10-11 levels ;)

Yes, I'm looking at 3.5. My players keep slowly adding in pathfinder content; I thought I'd beat them to the punch this time and allow creatures at ECL = CR, but was concerned it might be dysfunctional when combined with my (or the official) rules for playing higher level creatures.

That said, perhaps I should move to the official way, and give penalties to DCs etc as well. Would that move the beholder into "fun to pay for the sake of playing a beholder", or would it be too useless to even consider at that point? Can't hit, nobody fails their saves, and losses to SR, not to mention -10 to its own saves, skills, etc.

[MisterKaws]

Thanks for all the responses! I guess I should have been clearer about my system: you have to spend the next X levels buying off the penalty, so that, by the time it would normally be a legitimate character, the character is the same as you would expect. So no beholder mage for another 10-11 levels ;)

Yes, I'm looking at 3.5. My players keep slowly adding in pathfinder content; I thought I'd beat them to the punch this time and allow creatures at ECL = CR, but was concerned it might be dysfunctional when combined with my (or the official) rules for playing higher level creatures.

That said, perhaps I should move to the official way, and give penalties to DCs etc as well. Would that move the beholder into "fun to pay for the sake of playing a beholder", or would it be too useless to even consider at that point? Can't hit, nobody fails their saves, and losses to SR, not to mention -10 to its own saves, skills, etc.

He still has 8 save-or-suck at-will abilities, from which 7 are save-or-lose effects. DC can only help to the point where IP starts being effective: rolling a 1 will still fail a roll, no matter how utterly ridiculous the DC might have been, even if it was, in fact, DC 0.

Do a smaller beholderkin, it's still a beholder, but it won't be obliterating game balance.

[AvatarVecna]

Thanks for all the responses! I guess I should have been clearer about my system: you have to spend the next X levels buying off the penalty, so that, by the time it would normally be a legitimate character, the character is the same as you would expect. So no beholder mage for another 10-11 levels ;)

Yes, I'm looking at 3.5. My players keep slowly adding in pathfinder content; I thought I'd beat them to the punch this time and allow creatures at ECL = CR, but was concerned it might be dysfunctional when combined with my (or the official) rules for playing higher level creatures.

That said, perhaps I should move to the official way, and give penalties to DCs etc as well. Would that move the beholder into "fun to pay for the sake of playing a beholder", or would it be too useless to even consider at that point? Can't hit, nobody fails their saves, and losses to SR, not to mention -10 to its own saves, skills, etc.

At this point, since it seems like you're using 3.5 (since Beholder Mage would apparently be legal by lvl 13 or so), I would suggest instead using a Gaunt (the CL 6 mini-beholder). Not only does this monster require less adjustment to work for a lvl 3 party, those adjustments will be smaller in-scale, and you won't have to worry about how to nerf a bunch of high-level save-or-suck/die spells to the point they work for a level 3 party.

[ManicOppressive]

Also, as I mentioned and as some other people have elucidated, Beholder Mage should never, never, never be allowed at any level. They eat campaigns. There is no way to balance them short of gutting everything that makes them what they are, just don't allow them.

[Xuldarinar]

Give him a Spectator(LoM) instead: if he refuses, that means he's aiming for a Beholder Mage, just tell him that it's forbidden; if he accepts, then it's fine, just put him at ECL 6(+2 LA) I think, maybe even 5(+1 LA), as they don't give beholderkin's LA, then you just count him as a lvl 6 or 5 for distributing XP, the players will eventually catch up and then he can just advance as some class.

Coming in late, but I second this notion. They are CR 4 (4 HD), medium sized, and are considered to be "the most moderate and calm of the beholder kin." They'd be strong for the party, but not so far ahead I imagine that it would cause significant problems in relation to the rest of the party. From a roleplaying stand point, they are relatively sane, and willing to engage adventurers and explores in conversations when encountered. Surely such an encounter could be how said Spectator joins in. Long have they pondered, but one does find that the best seats are in the action.

[AvatarVecna]

Also, as I mentioned and as some other people have elucidated, Beholder Mage should never, never, never be allowed at any level. They eat campaigns. There is no way to balance them short of gutting everything that makes them what they are, just don't allow them.

I'd actually say that a Beholder (race) Beholder Mage X is pretty balanced...in a high-op game. Without early entry into the class (via Elan BS or other shenanigans) allows it to be roughly as broken as an optimized wizard, they just have the action economy abuse built in...plus, they have so much action economy abuse that it can actually run you out of spells quickly. That's not a huge problem if you're a standard adventurer, but when Beholder Mages are involved, nothing is really normal, and your DM is likely to take advantage of this hole in your defenses. Of course, what makes it super broken is when you throw another broken PrC in there with it, most notably Incantatrix...

Still, it's best not to allow it; it takes a really on-the-ball DM who knows the system and their players extremely well to pull of a game with Beholder Mage in there. As for regular beholders, I stand by my earlier advice: if a player wants to play a Beholder in such a low-level game, downgrade Gaunt, not full Beholder. Mixing a 3rd level party with at-will Save-or-Suck-Die SLAs is a terrible, terrible idea.

[Segev]

Yeah, speaking as a player who came up independently (but not uniquely nor first) with a way to legally maneuver from Elan Psion into Beholder Mage (and has a character background aching to be used to play through this), you don't want to allow this outside of a group VERY comfortable with high-op and with enough experience as a DM to make challenges come at the party from directions that are not "use power to win."

Beholders are powerful. The only even moderately balanced thing about the Elan Psion/beholder mage build is that it can't use the Beholder powers much, if at all, without crippling its advancement as a Beholder Mage, and Beholder Mage at least takes a few levels to catch up before it overtakes other casters. And even THEN, it's dangerous verging on broken (if not out-and-out broken).

So...yeah. If you want to try it, go ahead, but I wouldn't recommend it. If you do, please let us know how it goes! Real play experience is different than white room theorizing, so it'll be interesting to hear whether it's really as bad as it sounds.

[Chronos]

Wait, how are there even beholders in Pathfinder at all? They're not open-game content, and are in fact jealously guarded intellectual property of WotC.

And on beholder mages, don't forget that, in addition to the action economy abuse, they're also Tier 0 casters: They can learn as many spells as they want like a wizard, and then can cast all of them spontaneously.

[AvatarVecna]

Wait, how are there even beholders in Pathfinder at all? They're not open-game content, and are in fact jealously guarded intellectual property of WotC.

And on beholder mages, don't forget that, in addition to the action economy abuse, they're also Tier 0 casters: They can learn as many spells as they want like a wizard, and then can cast all of them spontaneously.

And they gain them at a quickened rate. It was only even vaguely balanced for high-op play because you had to play a super-high-level base race and had to give up al lthe things that made it worth its CR to get these abilities.

[Xuldarinar]

Wait, how are there even beholders in Pathfinder at all? They're not open-game content, and are in fact jealously guarded intellectual property of WotC.


They aren't, but everything in 3.5 and 3e is technically compatible (with some adjustments as needed, which they have rules on) with pathfinder. If you are playing a 3.P game, so long as the DM approves it is fair game.



In a not completely unrelated matter, I think it is interesting to note that neothelids are in pathfinder, but mind flayers aren't.

[DrMartin]

you could limit the character's eye rays to those magical effect that a caster of the same level would be able to cast, in addition to the penalties given by the "negative levels"

so at equivalent party level 3 he would have access to 1st and 2nd level rays (sleep, charm person, inflict moderate), at level 5 he gets access to slow and fear, at 7th charm monster, at 9th telekinesis, at 11th flesh to stone and disintegrate, and finally at level 13 he's a full beholder with no penalties and access to finger of death.

maybe make it so that the telekinesis eye works as a kind of mage hand before 9th level, unless you find the constant subplot of "how am i going to open this door" to be extremely fun :D

You could similarly let the antimagic beam "power up" with levels: at 3rd level it's completely offline, at 5th level forces spellcasters in the area to roll a caster level check in order to be able to cast with a DC of 10+the beholder caster level (basing it on dispel magic here), and either at 11th or at 13th level it graduates to the full anti-magic cone

As a way to distinguish his character from the other beholder who do not go around adventuring, you could give him the option to personalize a few of the eye rays he gets by leveling up, by choosing other effects of comparable level.

[P.F.]

...at equivalent party level 3 he would have access to 1st and 2nd level rays (sleep, charm person, inflict moderate), at level 5 he gets access to slow and fear, at 7th charm monster, at 9th telekinesis, at 11th flesh to stone and disintegrate, and finally at level 13 he's a full beholder with no penalties and access to finger of death.

Best suggestion so far. You might also want to check out Savage Species and incorporate the principles of savage progression as a basis for advancement. Also, while we're on the subject of progressing from CR 3 to CR 13, perhaps increment the number of rays usable each round, starting with just one, two at some middle level, then all three when he's nearly full-grown.

[Malroth]

Start him as a Spectator, Allow him to evolve into a stronger Beholderkin of higher CR once the party level is the CR of that monster

[Chronos]

I was referring to AvatarVecna's quote:

Needless to say, the above can be ignored if this is about Pathfinder Beholders, which don't have quite the same broken BS available that 3.5 had.
If we're assuming 3.5 beholders just ported into Pathfinder because the systems are so similar, then one could just as easily port over all of the broken BS that 3.5 has available. The above quote only seems to make sense if there's such a thing as a "Pathfinder beholder", separate from one imported from 3.5.

[atemu1234]

Start him as a Spectator, Allow him to evolve into a stronger Beholderkin of higher CR once the party level is the CR of that monster

I actually agree with this.

Advance it's HD and skills until it reaches that point.

[Xuldarinar]

I actually agree with this.

Advance it's HD and skills until it reaches that point.

Well, they are aberrations, so... theres not much justification that is needed for that.

They can evolve into a greater form, advancing HD and Skills, or they can take on class levels. Simple as that.

[Quertus]

Looks like I'll be trying a couple of one shoots to test putt this potential new rule.

That said, any guesses how it will work out? 3 rays at -1 attack bonus, CL 3, save or fail DC 7. On a chassis with AC 16, 93 HP, and saves -1/-5/1. And a -10 to all skill checks - which still gives it spot +12.

[AvatarVecna]

The thing about Save-Or-Lose/Die spells is that they do everything if they work and they do nothing if the fail; for the most part, there's no sliding scale of usefulness. A fighter who makes an attack might miss, and they might get a critical hit with max damage, but those aren't the only possibilities; they could get a regular hit, or a crit that doesn't deal max damage. What's going to happen here is you're going to fire the eye ray; like 80% of the time, you'll have wasted your action, and the other 20% you destroy the enemy completely, which means everybody else in the party wasted their actions. Having the DC so low just means that the person most likely to be wasting their time is you, which means that you won't get to have fun because you wanted to play something weird. That's my prediction, anyway.

I'm gonna second what some other people have said: have them start out as one of the lesser beholders (be it a Gaunt or whatever the other one was) and have them get more powerful forms as they go up in level.

[P.F.]

Also keep in mind that the Save DC for the ray effects is not arbitrary. The formula is either the same as for spells, [10 + spell level + Ability Modifier] (normally Charisma for innate SLA's), or [10 + (1/2)Hit Dice + Ability Modifier] (normally Constitution for racial Ex abilities like poison). While it may be more work than a static -X sliding scale, calculating the beholder's eye-ray DC's based on hit dice or spell-level equivalency will make them appropriate at-level and scale accordingly.

All in all I have to advise against crowbarring a Beholder into a party of 3rd level demi-human adventurers. Beholders can fly, which the DMG suggests limiting to parties of 7th level characters and up; it has at least triple the number of hit points of any other party member; even a Gauth is equivalent to an 8th-level caster (albeit not a tier-1 8th-level caster).

At best, this character will alternate between being 1. objectively and unfairly better than all other party members and 2. totally ineffective and frustrated. This might be okay if the net effect averages out to be similar to the other characters. However, it could just as easily be like the man with one foot frozen in a block of ice and the other in boiling water: on average, he's quite comfortable. At worst, your Beholder will be stuck on one side of this divide or the other, constantly disappointed with his inability to do anything, or constantly upstaging and trivializing his friends.