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AuthorGirl
2015-12-27, 09:22 PM
I am an inexperienced (COMPLETELY nooby) DM with the most chaotic players ever. Thus, here is a thread full of the problems I encounter, and I really want help fixing them. Seriously, a Lawful Good guy chopped a watchman off at the knees for no reason! And the cleric was deliberately sent into danger without knowing what to expect, also for no reason! Most importantly, THEY NEVER PAY ATTENTION TO THE CAMPAIGN! Anyway, more specific problems will be posted as they occur.

AuthorGirl
2015-12-27, 09:27 PM
So, the most serious specific problem I have right now is that one of my players DMs for me and my friends in a different campaign. He acts chaotic as revenge! Then there's the other DM, who calls his campaign-wrecking behaviour 'hazing because you're new'. Hopefully the DM scheduled to join soon won't be like this. Then there's my brother who I'm afraid will get mad at me if bad stuff happens! (He's a DM too, also hazing me.) Basically, how do I deal with problem players when it's complicated? Plus, my own character is at the mercy of the first DM mentioned, so is it worth it to tell him off? Help me, I beg of you!:smallfrown:

AuthorGirl
2015-12-27, 09:31 PM
The entire party is made of dwarves! They are at a real disadvantage on perception and general knowledge checks, because dwarves only know about certain areas, just like everyone else. The class variety is OK, but they really need an elf for those telepathy-based checks and things, and a human to help talk them out of situations in human towns. Also, they don't work together very well.

AuthorGirl
2015-12-27, 09:32 PM
How do I make people play to alignment?:smallmad:

EvilCookie
2015-12-27, 09:32 PM
Acting against the law can get them arrested, penalized, incarcerated or even murdered (also, dont be affraid to kill your PCs, if they do something dumb, you are completely justified to do wahtever you think they deserve. Assaulting a guard seems like one of those situations)
A cool thing for people like me, who sometimes wish for a skip button during plot exposition or scene description in to say something which may benefit the characters (a weak spot on the boss, a hole in the wall containing a hidden pouch, a pressure plate...)

EvilCookie
2015-12-27, 09:37 PM
So, the most serious specific problem I have right now is that one of my players DMs for me and my friends in a different campaign. He acts chaotic as revenge! Then there's the other DM, who calls his campaign-wrecking behaviour 'hazing because you're new'. Hopefully the DM scheduled to join soon won't be like this. Then there's my brother who I'm afraid will get mad at me if bad stuff happens! (He's a DM too, also hazing me.) Basically, how do I deal with problem players when it's complicated? Plus, my own character is at the mercy of the first DM mentioned, so is it worth it to tell him off? Help me, I beg of you!:smallfrown:

That is really an out of character problem
You are there to have fun, and if someone is going to enact revenge, or give you a hard time whatever the reason might be, discuss it with them out of character, and if they dont stop being *****, try to find a new group.
Its usually not worth playing with idiots, unless they are really lovable idiots

Yuki Akuma
2015-12-27, 09:38 PM
You... don't have to post four posts for four paragraphs. Your keyboard... almost certainly has a return key... There's an 'edit post' button...

My advice for your situation, however: Use Your Words™. Talk to your friends. Ask them what sort of game they want to play and run that. Or if that sort of game is utterly detestable to you for whatever reason, try to come to some sort of middle ground.

Don't use in-character punishments to 'make them play their alignments'. They'll most likely just feel like they're being attacked for no reason.

EvilCookie
2015-12-27, 09:43 PM
The entire party is made of dwarves! They are at a real disadvantage on perception and general knowledge checks, because dwarves only know about certain areas, just like everyone else. The class variety is OK, but they really need an elf for those telepathy-based checks and things, and a human to help talk them out of situations in human towns. Also, they don't work together very well.

Not necessarily, all dwarves in a non-dwarven kingdom might be fun to roleplay, and not having all the knowledges is not really such a problem.



How do I make people play to alignment?:smallmad:

It is usually better to adjust their alignment by the way they play. If you have a Lawful Good character breaking laws and randomly murdering people, gradually shift his alignment towards his real alignment (CE)

Yuki Akuma
2015-12-27, 09:45 PM
It is usually better to adjust their alignment by the way they play. If you have a Lawful Good character breaking laws and randomly murdering people, gradually shift his alignment towards his real alignment (CE)

Never do this without telling the player you're going to start doing it. Give them a warning first.

Ideally, never do this.

EvilCookie
2015-12-27, 09:47 PM
Never do this without telling the player you're going to start doing it. Give them a warning first.

Ideally, never do this.


How do you actually deal with players writting something on their sheets and acting completely different? i honestly dont really see a different way other than "no your character wouldnt do that because alignment" and thats far worse in my opinion

Yuki Akuma
2015-12-27, 09:52 PM
How do you actually deal with players writting something on their sheets and acting completely different? i honestly dont really see a different way other than "no your character wouldnt do that because alignment" and thats far worse in my opinion

Well generally, to deal with something like this I'd talk to them like a regular human being about our obviously mismatched viewpoints. Maybe mention how in D&D alignments are actually objective cosmic forces rather than subjective moral philosophies, that sort of thing.

Or I play 5th edition where alignments don't have any sort of mechanical effect so honestly it doesn't matter what they wrote on their sheet...

Edit: Okay I'm going to be straight: I'm autistic, so I might not have a great grasp on the subtle social intricacies of playing pretend elf games (despite playing pretend elf games all the time), but. The way I see it, you are playing a game with your friends - or at least acquaintances you like enough to devote several hours of your life on a weekly/monthly basis pretending to be wizards and elves and dwarves and knights together. The goal of the game is to have fun - most RPGs aren't even competitive! So when you're not having fun, shouldn't it be assumed that you'll say so? And try to come to an understanding so all of you have fun in the future?

EvilCookie
2015-12-27, 10:04 PM
Well generally, to deal with something like this I'd talk to them like a regular human being about our obviously mismatched viewpoints. Maybe mention how in D&D alignments are actually objective cosmic forces rather than subjective moral philosophies, that sort of thing.

Or I play 5th edition where alignments don't have any sort of mechanical effect so honestly it doesn't matter what they wrote on their sheet...

I assumed talking like a regular human being was tried and failed, thus the problem, but that might have been a wrong assumption on my part. Also I assumend that the OP's players knew about alignments since they were DMing other games. (Maybe I really should stop assuming)
But if the players refuse, or simply cant act their alignments, shifting their alignments really seems like the most effective option.

And yeah, if you are playing something which does not really take alignments all that seriously, it really doesn't matter what they have on their sheet

EvilCookie
2015-12-27, 10:06 PM
Edit: Okay I'm going to be straight: I'm autistic, so I might not have a great grasp on the subtle social intricacies of playing pretend elf games (despite playing pretend elf games all the time), but. The way I see it, you are playing a game with your friends - or at least acquaintances you like enough to devote several hours of your life on a weekly/monthly basis pretending to be wizards and elves and dwarves and knights together. The goal of the game is to have fun - most RPGs aren't even competitive! So when you're not having fun, shouldn't it be assumed that you'll say so? And try to come to an understanding so all of you have fun in the future?

THIS.
You are there to have fun!

Yuki Akuma
2015-12-27, 10:07 PM
I assumed talking like a regular human being was tried and failed, thus the problem, but that might have been a wrong assumption on my part. Also I assumend that the OP's players knew about alignments since they were DMing other games. (Maybe I really should stop assuming)
But if the players refuse, or simply cant act their alignments, shifting their alignments really seems like the most effective option.

Unfortunately, the number of stories I've heard where people simply never think to talk to the people they're devoting several hours of their lives to pretending to be fantastical adventures with moves me to usually assume the exact opposite. (God that was a weird sentence.)

I'd also consider continuing to play in a game where talking about your concerns has absolutely no effect an example of 'beaten gamer syndrome'.

EvilestWeevil
2015-12-27, 10:27 PM
If they want to play crazy and chaotic. Use the tried and true, rocks fall everyone dies method. Then have a chat about what the hell their problem is.

Darth Ultron
2015-12-27, 10:42 PM
The entire party is made of dwarves! They are at a real disadvantage on perception and general knowledge checks, because dwarves only know about certain areas, just like everyone else. The class variety is OK, but they really need an elf for those telepathy-based checks and things, and a human to help talk them out of situations in human towns. Also, they don't work together very well.

If the Pc's just lack something, like a skill, you should just ignore it. The players are the ones that need to deal with anything they lack. If they can't pick locks, then they just have to bash doors in.

And if they can't talk themselves out of things....then they just can't talk there way out of things.

The players not working together is common. You could just ignore it and let the game roll on. If you really feel that they must work together, you can try to encourage them.

If they are really, really, really not playing their alignment, then you should change their alignments. Though this is a bit tricky as it depends ''what'' they are really doing. More details would be needed.

Geddy2112
2015-12-27, 11:08 PM
I second talking to the players as people. About the game they want to play in, why they act the way they do, etc. Some people think that D&D is just a murdersim-they kill anything they want and loot as they please. While I think this type of behavior is better for video gameslike like The Elder Scrolls, Fallout, and Grand theft auto,there is nothing wrong with people wanting to play this type of game. If you want the players to be less murderhobo, then ask them, and ask what they want and why.

As far as being all dwarves, they may lack certain game mechanics but there is fun in having to work with what they have. Make challenges as you see fit and see how they overcome. If they need a hammer and all they have are screwdrivers then see what they can do to improvise.

Regarding alignment, I second just treating them as they act, not as they put on their sheet. If a player acts good, then they detect as good, get hit by smite good, etc. Same as evil and whatnot. If an evil player tries to summon a good outsider, they might fail to get a response, or maybe it tries to attack them. However, a demon might be honored to come to the call of a powerful evil wizard. Tell your players that their actions will determine their alignment, but also leave alignment to the mechanical aspects of the game.

And most importantly, don't feel obliged to DM for a bunch of jerks who mistreat you. If they like you as a DM, if they like your game, and if they value you as a friend at all then they should respect you as the dm. Simply do not DM if they keep greifing your campaign. I personally think the other DM using this game to spite you and use his power as DM in the game you play in is incredibly petty. Not only would I not dm for such a person, I would not play.

Steampunkette
2015-12-27, 11:19 PM
If they're hazing you then you have a choice.

Capitulate to the hazing or complete the ritual.

Either you deal with the cap as a DMG would, or walk away.

You already came here for advice which means you're not walking away. You rock for trying!

1. In game consequences. Dude kills a guard, dude becomes an outlaw. Send guards after him. Maybe bounty hunters. Have the old wizard quest giver refuse to work with him. Change his alignment after...

2. Metagame discussion. Talk about the implications of actions, and effects on alignment, how you'll handle those things.

3. Out of game discussion. Tell them to stop hazing because it takes the fun out of DMing and makes you not want to do it.

Jay R
2015-12-27, 11:24 PM
How do I make people play to alignment?:smallmad:

Make it clear to them that actions have consequences. For instance,


Seriously, a Lawful Good guy chopped a watchman off at the knees for no reason!

At the next break in the action, tell him that his character has a choice:
a. He feels terrible about committing such an evil act, or
b. He becomes Evil.

The choice should be the player's, not yours. But he must choose between (a) some kind of serious quest or other Good-affirming action, including but not limited to paying for healing and making a sizable donation to the poor victim, or (b) he doesn't care if he hurts people, and he is Evil (and probably at least Neutral, if not Chaotic).

This is not a trivial action. It is cruel as well as illegal, and against an innocent merely doing his job.

goto124
2015-12-28, 12:27 AM
The first step should be "Out of game discussion - Tell them to stop hazing because it takes the fun out of DMing and makes you not want to do it.", and add on "tell them you'll start implementing realistic consequences, for example, killing people in a city means the guards are after you, and no one trusts them anymore" and "tell them the next time they commit such Evil acts, their alignment will change accordingly".

Steampunkette
2015-12-28, 12:31 AM
I put them in that order because the hazing might be over, already. If it is, then there is nothing to address. If it isn't, slapping in the game and Metagame consequences may end it. And then if that fails, on to the out of game discussion.

goto124
2015-12-28, 12:34 AM
Warning the players about you adding in the in-game and alignment consequences may be a good thing to do.

When the consequences do kick in, the GM can safely tell the players "I told you".

May want to print the exact words out on sheets of paper, and give them out to the players. In case the players forget (or worse).

AMFV
2015-12-28, 12:40 AM
If they're doing random things like that, then it may be a sign that the campaign isn't compelling to them for some reason. Random acts of violence tend to result more from boredom than anything else (I'm a former Marine, ex-marine? No longer serving Marine, whatever the thing we're supposed to call ourselves post-EAS now that they've axed "former Marine" and "Ex-Marine", so I can vouch for this, violence comes from boredom). As such you should reevaluate your storylines and maybe how you're presenting the world to them. If they aren't hooked enough not to just go on random rampages, then maybe you should give them that. Maybe they're thrown into a deep dungeon as punishment for the guards, one that's full of monsters (and treasure) and they have to fight their way out.

If they're "hazing" you, then you need to basically tell them this: "Go F- Yourself", D&D is not the military, nor is it an exclusive club. The whole point of hazing is to either tighten up bonds or prove value, you're their friend, you don't have to prove your value or tighten up bonds of friendship. Although if a friend told me he was "hazing me" in my D&D campaign, I would probably point out that I could haze him right back, and that I'd be better at it.

Steampunkette
2015-12-28, 01:38 AM
You're also a guy, and not subjected to the same weird social standards women in gaming get hit with.

Before I transitioned I saw a lot of it flying around. After I transitioned I was surprised when and how it hit me. Particularly from guys I'd played with, before.

"Hazing" women in any social situation considered primarily male is super common. Like loading docks, factory work, and the aforementioned gaming.

AMFV
2015-12-28, 01:45 AM
You're also a guy, and not subjected to the same weird social standards women in gaming get hit with.

Before I transitioned I saw a lot of it flying around. After I transitioned I was surprised when and how it hit me. Particularly from guys I'd played with, before.

"Hazing" women in any social situation considered primarily male is super common. Like loading docks, factory work, and the aforementioned gaming.

That's harassment, not hazing. Hazing is intended as an initiation ritual. Otherwise it's just harassment.

Edit: It can also refer to things intended to build up camaraderie and what-not. But I would argue that what you're referring to is harassment rather than hazing.

Steampunkette
2015-12-28, 01:57 AM
Oh, sure. You know it, I know it, everyone knows it... but when a guy calls it hazing it becomes fun that you're ruining if you complain.

AMFV
2015-12-28, 02:08 AM
Oh, sure. You know it, I know it, everyone knows it... but when a guy calls it hazing it becomes fun that you're ruining if you complain.

I don't think that's strictly true. But I suspect that further discussion along these lines is liable to lead to areas of discussion that we need to avoid. However I will say this much, hazing is about respect, fundamentally it's about proving yourself to somebody. I would say that it's not really about fun, in any real sense, I mean it can be amusing (and I certainly know that), but that isn't really the point of it. I mean sure it might be funny to make somebody paint rocks or cut the grass with scissors or clean a room after you've tossed it. But those things all have specific points, even though they may seem pointless.

Which is why I would recommend my solution. Hazing isn't about fun.

Steampunkette
2015-12-28, 03:49 AM
Very few things are strictly true. Though you're right about the thread derailment.

If you do wanna talk about it, hit me up in PMs, though. :) Always happy to have conversations!

Arbane
2015-12-28, 06:55 AM
So, the most serious specific problem I have right now is that one of my players DMs for me and my friends in a different campaign. He acts chaotic as revenge! Then there's the other DM, who calls his campaign-wrecking behaviour 'hazing because you're new'. Hopefully the DM scheduled to join soon won't be like this. Then there's my brother who I'm afraid will get mad at me if bad stuff happens! (He's a DM too, also hazing me.) Basically, how do I deal with problem players when it's complicated? Plus, my own character is at the mercy of the first DM mentioned, so is it worth it to tell him off? Help me, I beg of you!:smallfrown:

I'd recommend some variation of telling them with your mouth-words, 'knock off the murderhoboing, guys'.

And when they don't, either that's when they all get the pudgy hand of the Law down on them, or that's when you start being too busy to run the game. (You have something more important to do than run a game you're not enjoying for jerks. Reorganizing your sock drawer, for example.)

Trinoya
2015-12-28, 03:12 PM
Author Girl:

Without knowing much about the specifics of each event it's difficult to provide you with much information. However; Attacking a town guard should, at the very least, get the players banned from the town, a bounty on the head, significant restitution for damages caused, and certainly force an alignment change if it wasn't something validated by in game events. People who just up and attack others should find that society frowns on them. Shops won't sell to them, towns won't open their gates for them. People will turn them away if they know who they are. News travels quickly and it wouldn't take much to get a person banned from every local watering hole, village, town, and city, as well as prosecuted in others for his crimes. These are not things that ever go away. I have a character who missed in combat once because the enemy deflected the blast and he hit someones daughter, the family has hunted him ever since. All actions have consequences and it is up to you to enforce those consequences for better or worse.

As for players hazing you and you feeling like you are at risk of retaliation ignore that last part. You do not tolerate that. No one should attempt to gain revenge or otherwise use a game as a weapon or for hazing purposes just because your new. Tell them to stop, or that you will stop being a DM. You're the dungeon master and you make the game they play in. If they refuse to respect that then simply stop offering it. Additionally if they try any sort of reprisal in their own games just stop playing in those games.

You'll save a lot of time, effort, and a significant amount of mental anguish by just drawing the line and saying no. If they won't accept your game as it is, don't run it, and if they want to pick on you or get mad at you in other games, don't play, they don't deserve your time. :smallannoyed:

Alaris
2015-12-28, 03:15 PM
Alright, I see you have a lot of replies, but I figure I'll throw my 2 cents in here anyway. This is more or less what I would do in this kind of situation, so maybe take it with a grain of salt:

Lawful Good Guy chopping a guy's legs off at the knees for no reason.

Okay, this one is pretty easy to remedy. First off, he isn't Lawful Good. Tell him/her straight up that his alignment has changed. If he's a Paladin or a Cleric, he probably just lost his powers, and that's a consequence. Second, there can be other consequences. Legal issues with guards; maybe this guy had family that will be out for revenge, etc. You can make this into plot, if you work hard enough.

Players not paying attention to the campaign.

Best thing to do here is pretty similar to what I said above. Consequences. Have continuity. You have an NPC mention something earlier in the campaign, and have it come to fruition later. If they didn't pay attention before, they might not have the solution to whatever problem has cropped up. Make sure they know that the information was there... they just weren't paying attention.

Other DMs and playing in other campaigns.

This one is a bit more complicated. It seems like the Other DMs are holding the fact that they control what happens to your character in their campaign, over your head. If you do something bad to them in yours, they'll do something bad in theirs. My best advice here, in all honesty... is get out. Do not play under DMs who bring stuff from out of A GAME into ANOTHER GAME. This is BS, and you should never be under someone's thumb because of it.

Entire Party is the same race.

This isn't inherently a bad thing. You may have to work around it to a degree, and the players may need to be creative in their Roleplay, but you can make it interesting, I'm sure. They don't 'need' a Human or an Elf. It would be convenient, and sure, there can be consequences to them not having one, but they don't need it.

They don't work together very well.

Incentives for working together are good. XP and such. And of course, on the other side, consequences of not working together. If the party separates, or backstabs one another, make sure there are consequences to it. They are a party; you're all here to enjoy the game.

At the end of the day...

I honestly think you need to find a new group. There are what seems to be toxic players and DMs in your group that are going to drag it down into destruction, ultimately. You can try to get people together and have a serious talk about it, and hell, that might work. But if it doesn't? You need to find a new group.

Best of luck, friend.

Zman
2015-12-28, 07:30 PM
Their behavior is unacceptable, find some way to resolve it. Try asking them nicely to not sabotage your campaign. If that doesn't work, create consequences for their action in game. Randomly kill a guard, city hires powerful adventurers to bring the character to justice, if the character resists they execute them. Then let them wait till the next session to introduce a new character. Not following alignment for divine spell casters is easy, cut off their magic.

Basically they have to respect you as he DM, their behavior is unacceptable. Also, you as the DM have to be able to hold their respect.

veti
2015-12-28, 08:03 PM
Lawful Good Guy chopping a guy's legs off at the knees for no reason.

Okay, this one is pretty easy to remedy. First off, he isn't Lawful Good. Tell him/her straight up that his alignment has changed. If he's a Paladin or a Cleric, he probably just lost his powers, and that's a consequence. Second, there can be other consequences. Legal issues with guards; maybe this guy had family that will be out for revenge, etc. You can make this into plot, if you work hard enough.

Legal issues with guards? Try "guards trying to kill you on sight, and the city hiring bounty hunters who are probably higher level than you to hunt down the character and everyone with them". Honestly, chopping limbs off is pretty extreme, it's the sort of conduct that the authorities will not only take seriously, but put real, bona-fide effort into hunting down the perpetrators. And they'll probably offer the rewards "alive or dead", which of course means "dead" to all intents and purposes.


Players not paying attention to the campaign.

Best thing to do here is pretty similar to what I said above. Consequences. Have continuity.

Absolutely. Your campaign should have a "base" storyline, which is what will happen if the PCs don't do anything relevant to interfere with it. And those events should escalate, creating increasingly-hard-to-ignore in-game consequences.

You didn't investigate the reports of a remote village being under attack from undead? Too bad, now the necromancer has a base, it'll be significantly harder to infiltrate. You didn't infiltrate the base? Nice going, now the necromancer has an army. You didn't stop the army? Great, now the city where your PCs go to sell their loot is under siege. You didn't save the city? Oops, no more shops around here, plus that army is a lot bigger now, and the necromancer has a whole county to hide in. You still didn't stop the necromancer? Sucks to be you, because now the king has quarantined the whole area and anyone alive and armed trying to get out of it is likely to be treated as an enemy. And so the long day wears on.

oxybe
2015-12-28, 09:31 PM
Quite honestly, I would tell them to either shape up or ship out.

First - the LG guy cutting out the legs. alignment aside, that's brutal. as in, few civilizations would actually do something like that for reasons other then simply inflicting needless pain. have consequences happen. people will be looking for this psycho who removes limbs with little reason.

Second - You, under no circumstances, need to be "hazed in". If he brings that up tell him he's a jerk for even thinking that was a good idea and any further disruptions will end with him being evicted from the game. Tell your brother the same thing. It's disrespectful to you and hardly paints them in a positive light. As GM you have full control over who can attend your sessions. Let them mull over that and that they've expended all goodwill.

There is no reason you have to suffer playing with jerks and if they bring the fact that you stopped them from running roughshod over your campaign into theirs (the one you're playing in) and "take revenge", leave. nothing you've said has painted them as GMs worth suffering under.

They've proven to be people you can't have a decent game with, so why suffer a bad campaign? No D&D is better then bad D&D. Take this new "not playing with jerks" time to find a better group that won't mistreat you. if you can't find one nearby, try finding one online.

I've had success with roll20.

Three - eh... personal experience would say that knowledge skills handle overall knowledge of the campaign world better then going "humans know X, dwarves know Y and elves know Z". a given dwarf might not know elven or human holidays but one with knowledge of geography or history might have a passing knowlege of old elven rituals or a new celebrations humans have started dancing and feasting for whatever reasons. it might not be intimate knowledge, but hey, I'm a French Canadian Human and my knowledge of Japanese Human Shinto rituals is at best sketchy... not all humans have full knowledge of all human societies.

I do know some non-japanese that are familiar with the Shinto religion, though so for the most part I find this kind of thing it's best to ask "is this knowledge somehow available outside it's native area?" if yes, then knowledge skills. if not then it's region-locked.

Fourth - Don't ask me about alignment... we don't get along. :P

but yeah:

1-have consequences in-game for in-game behaviour. let the group know that doing actions will have people react accordingly. get enough people in-game scared and angry enough and stuff will happen.

2-have consequences for out of game behaviour. tell the group you won't tolerate disruptive and disrespectful behaviour and if it persists you will boot people from the group.

3-if these people who are removed or scolded act "punish" you for not taking their BS, then leave. You shouldn't have to be punished for refusing to let them walk over you. The GM only has as much power over a player as they allow, and walking away removes all their power.

4-try finding games with other venues. Our GitP has recruitment threads and reddit.com/r/LFG are good places to start, as well as hanging out roll20's website.

5-there is knowledge skills, i recommend using them to dole out information that might otherwise be region-locked

6-alignment. blek.

ellindsey
2015-12-28, 09:45 PM
Find better people to game with? Anyone who showed up at one of my games with the intent of 'hazing' me would find themselves not invited to show up at my game anymore.

Kami2awa
2015-12-28, 10:05 PM
"Hazing" a new GM?

Screw that. That's dumb enough that it's not even worth trying to play with such people.

Walk away. Preferably after having had his PC eaten by a dragon.

prufock
2015-12-30, 12:54 AM
Do not participate in games that are not enjoyable. This is a very simple principle that a lot of people seem to ignore.

KillianHawkeye
2016-01-05, 01:49 AM
Okay, I'm sorry, but I have to ask... what do elves have to do with telepathy?? :smallconfused:

8BitNinja
2016-01-06, 01:24 PM
Rocks fall, everyone dies

Segev
2016-01-06, 03:43 PM
Speaking as a guy, I've never found hazing to be fun nor acceptable. Regardless of sex or gender. I don't like practical jokes. (Clever ones are funny...but only in theory, never in actual practice.) Call me a stick-in-the-mud if you like, but I don't tolerate hazing when it's done to me and will actively sabotage it if it's being done to somebody else unless I know for a fact that "somebody else" appreciates having it done to them.

All of that said: if you don't like it, tell them so. Run your game as you see fit, with the world reacting as you feel it should to their behavior. Tell them that's what you're doing. And if they won't cut it out or try to throw any sort of tantrum over it, find a different group to run for. If they start retaliating in the games they run against you, call them out on it. Be polite but firm. And be willing to accept that they don't want you to play with them enough to act like the friends they claim to be if they won't respect your wishes.

But always, always be polite. Be clear, but honest, but don't allow yourself to get angry and snide. It will be tempting; you want, however, to be the bigger person.

Lvl 2 Expert
2016-01-06, 04:13 PM
Not having seen the situation in person (<-disclaimer) I'm not sure this hazing is a gender thing. I've been a member of a student club where it was a custom that people who had been in the bartenders commission for a year could annoy the current bartenders. They know what it's like and they've earned the right to screw with the new guys, was the idea. This can get very annoying, but if they have some sense of humor it usually ends up being pretty funny for everybody (plus the person who plays the prank often ends up having to buy everyone a drink, which is always a bonus). What your players are doing sounds a lot like that: they're DMs, they get to stress test the new DM. The object of the "game", at least the way those bartenders played it, is to get you to learn how to react to that in another way than by getting annoyed and wanting them to stop. If you can deal with this stuff then you have become a worthy DM and they don't have a reason to keep doing this stuff. (They still will pull off some stunts of course, but not as often, and only because they think the behavior itself is funny, not because it's particularly funny to do it while you are running the game).

The analogy is not perfect though, the bar was never filled with ex-bartenders, while you seem to be playing with a group made up of DMs. Plus as a bartender you don't need to try to get people to listen to important plot exposition because the next session won't make sense without it.

8BitNinja
2016-01-06, 06:55 PM
Hazing is wrong, plain and simple

My previous joke aside, you should try to talk to the problem players privately, or if you have to, publicly

Also, threaten to kill his character and then curse them to the abyss

If nothing works, find some good-aligned people in real life to play with

Itsjustsoup.com
2016-01-08, 02:14 AM
Lol. Give them what they want. Then like tennis, return the serve.

I had the same problem with my players and every once in a while I still do. Give them what they want but don't put them in the world as its greatest heroes.

They're all kind of fighters and servicemen around us and soldiers and Green Berets and special forces that work at Walmart and you never know you were talking to. That shop keep ? Retired lvl 14 hero of the forgotten Dragon wars! That bartender, lvl 1, his serving girl, a lvl 12 Assassin hiding from a contract she didn't fulfill! Get my drift?

Nevermind actions having consequences action have reactions. How would people REACT?

Are these the new bad guys in town? Will maybe their exploits will reach the ears of some heroes who out to demolish some bad guys. They can be the same or greater level.

Maybe the townspeople or surviving townspeople took up a collection to hire bounty hunters.

Maybe one of the people they hurt or destroyed was a wizards beloved Kin, maybe he was a necromancer, and he reanimates his lost loved one and stares at them in agony all day, and proceeds to reign down agony and pain on the players at every chance. Sending zombies to their families and friends home, killing them in kind, burning their homes, killing their horses, wanting them to suffer and have no place to rest.

GO with it.

It's okay to have Bigger badder guards. Its okay to have a medieval swat team. Even if its the kings men or problem solvers 3-4 towns away.

In short, your players NEW characters didn't create the WORLD they live in and they aren't the TOUGHEST PEOPLE IN IT.

Show em.

Here's the complete story about it that I posted on Reddit:

Well, it's really fun so far, my gaming group is a bunch of pent up *, so they don't show up wanting to be thespians and get to know the townspeople and right wrongs...

They want monsters to die. Often and horribly.

And if there are no monsters, well then snarky quest giver A might just get a battle axe to the head or worse, some kind of spell-based terrorism or harassment, if there are no higher level guards around. In short, they are always on the edge of anarchy with no clear villain to fight.

So when I threw away my 5th complete storyline for them because they just acted like a bunch of hooligans, I found myself still wanting to GM, and challenged by the whole "herding angry abused cats" thing.

But i wasn't going to craft another story for them to poop on. I mean literally, In one of my games, My friend Dante was killed by a witch for being too rude. his response to his unpreventable death? Standard action, drop trousers. Move action - combat dump.

These were some pent up, hilarious dudes.

So I resigned to give us BOTH what we want. Me a Sunday game, and them a rumble fest.

So I just started making up my on the fly pathfinder/ Ice wind Dale Mash-up using quick monsters on PFSRD.

They complained about never living long enough to have any real power (due to stupid choices) and begged to start at lvl 10 "so they could F* S**t up" as Dante put it.

So I gave it to them - Icewind Dale in Pathfinder - the Bitter cruel frozen dangerous North - Starting at Lvl 10.

And they loved it. 6 Weeks in, 12 deaths so far. rezzes need material components.

And well

They finally got tired of dying, losing, blaming one another, and being all out embarrassed and this weekend i am glad to report.

To my shock and awe they functioned like a team and steamrolled Tombs 2 and 4 like a swat team.

And I gave them all their props because they earned it.


One of my notable changes: I have a set list of items the shopkeepers carry that level up with the players story advancement, roleplaying, and helpful deeds. Guess how often that got touched? NEVER!

One player wanted dark vision potions and Oswald had none, but said he would craft some if they would get him some of the nightroot from the cyclops lands.

They went, and died horribly. Favorite Level 12 characters were lost forever. The lone survivor dual wielding fighter lost his sunblade, and drank his gaseous potions and floated away in the night as his friends died to avoid the flying, lightning javelin throwing cyclops. and yes, all in the XP/loot budget AND when they died the players got those items. Wow, how one potion of fly on a cyclops changes EVERYTHING.

Later on, ONE Player SMACKED A DRAGON ON THE BUTT DURING A TENSE NEGOTIATION. 2 Players died in the escape.

They got so TIRED OF ROLLING LEVEL 10 Characters that the TOLERABLE HAPPENED.

They kept their crappy attitudes, and they still tried to bully when they thought they could get way with it, but they started PLAYING!

RickAllison
2016-01-08, 03:15 AM
I am an inexperienced (COMPLETELY nooby) DM with the most chaotic players ever. Thus, here is a thread full of the problems I encounter, and I really want help fixing them. Seriously, a Lawful Good guy chopped a watchman off at the knees for no reason! And the cleric was deliberately sent into danger without knowing what to expect, also for no reason! Most importantly, THEY NEVER PAY ATTENTION TO THE CAMPAIGN! Anyway, more specific problems will be posted as they occur.


An excellent DM trick to learn is rolling with the punches and letting the party's actions define the consequences. First, an LG guy randomly amputating? Give him a multiple choice question and show him the most obvious consequences; do you: A) feel remorse and seek to right the wrongs by secretly giving restitution to the amputee (transition to NG or CG); B) don't feel remorseful, but realize you need to own up to the law of the realm (transition to LN or LE); C) Both A and B (remain at LG for fulfilling both aspects); D) embrace the fact that you are a murderhobo (transition to TN or CE); or E) remain at LG for the time being, while subconsciously being wracked by guilt over your crimes (LG, but can't get a good night's rest until alignment conflict is resolved; apply disadvantages of your choice and inflict penalties on social encounters with guards or others he should feel guilty toward)? At that point, he is given multiple solutions to the problem that reflect his alignment. This is assuming he wasn't known to be guilty of the crime, in which case he is a wanted man now and his acquaintances are accomplices! Stat up a party of a slightly-higher level as taking the job of bringing you all in, to emulate "proper" adventurer conduct.

Sometimes, you have to accept that they might not pay attention to the campaign and miss the hints. Think about it: what happens if the party doesn't solve the problem? It might evolve. If you created a meaningful threat and the party goes off the rails, don't throw it away. If the goblin clan raiding supplies isn't stopped, what happens then? Maybe now they have enough stores to cut their reliance on a neighboring clan. Maybe the party finds themselves in the middle of a goblin war one day because they decided it was better to goof around than address dangers in the countryside. This is functionally equivalent to "rocks fall, everyone dies" if you want it to be, but it can also be a warning. Let the players see the chaos they have wrought. Let the players be blamed by grief-stricken widows for the deaths of the guards sent to fulfill their task, and let the party be chased out of town knowing that they are rightfully to blame. Best of all, give them a reminder of their shame to carry around; maybe a child, orphaned by their callousness; maybe a parchment from a gypsy, with the names of all the dead due to the party's actions (and which is magically impervious and notes future deaths as well). Let your party know that you are to be taken seriously, and you will gain their respect. They will know you as someone who is willing to hit them hard as a DM.


So, the most serious specific problem I have right now is that one of my players DMs for me and my friends in a different campaign. He acts chaotic as revenge! Then there's the other DM, who calls his campaign-wrecking behaviour 'hazing because you're new'. Hopefully the DM scheduled to join soon won't be like this. Then there's my brother who I'm afraid will get mad at me if bad stuff happens! (He's a DM too, also hazing me.) Basically, how do I deal with problem players when it's complicated? Plus, my own character is at the mercy of the first DM mentioned, so is it worth it to tell him off? Help me, I beg of you!

How do I make people play to alignment?

See above. Alignment, in my opinion, is not something that guides the PC's actions; rather, the PC's actions define the alignment. Give the players choices on what they can do regarding morality OOC and make it clear you will enforce these decisions. The one thing I would recommend is try not to make an alignment jump more than one square if it defies one aspect of an alignment in a minor way, or two if it defies two aspects in a minor way or one in a major way. For a Lawful Good character, doing something evil (torturing a suspect to elicit a confession) should push him to either LN or LE depending on the severity. Doing something chaotic should prompt a potential change to NG or CG. If they do something Chaotic Evil (like chopping off legs for no reason), that might push them to True Neutral or even CE if they embrace it. For hazing, the best way to avoid consequences is to prove yourself as a capable DM and one who wants to tell a meaningful story. They are testing the waters to see if you are a fun DM for the group, and you have the opportunity to take the party's actions and weave a beautiful tale that can haunt your chaotic characters. Tell the story you want in a way that makes their actions matter and they will respect you for it.


The entire party is made of dwarves! They are at a real disadvantage on perception and general knowledge checks, because dwarves only know about certain areas, just like everyone else. The class variety is OK, but they really need an elf for those telepathy-based checks and things, and a human to help talk them out of situations in human towns. Also, they don't work together very well.

Let them encounter problems that play to their strengths, and let them face hurdles that diversification would enable them to achieve easily. The beauty of systems with a DM/GM/ST is that a given problem can be solved in multiple ways. For a lock, the most straightforward way is to pick it; a melee class might try to break the lock, or something like the hinges to a door or chest; a magic class might try to unlock it with a spell, or melt it, or destroy the barrier around it; other solutions might include talking to someone who might have the key (Bard), recalling where a key might be held (some Scholar-build, with your approval), phasing through somehow, or even just finding a locksmith and bringing him to the lock or the lock to him. Be flexible and make it a puzzle. If you give it a lot of thought, stick a MacGuffin inside, else just make it a way to get more loot!

8BitNinja
2016-01-12, 01:24 PM
On The Spoony Experiment sub-series Counter Monkey, he said you can get a party to do anything you want if you steal from them

Just send a thief when they are least prepared, and they will do anything to get whatever you stole from them

Even if that means diving headfirst into the Tomb of Horrors or even *gasp* listening to the DM

So just use magic items or money you stole from the party to do what you want

LnGrrrR
2016-01-13, 02:23 AM
The above is very very true.

8BitNinja
2016-01-13, 01:21 PM
The above is very very true.

I wouldn't recommend using it often though

AuthorGirl
2016-02-28, 11:46 AM
Acting against the law can get them arrested, penalized, incarcerated or even murdered (also, dont be affraid to kill your PCs, if they do something dumb, you are completely justified to do wahtever you think they deserve. Assaulting a guard seems like one of those situations)
A cool thing for people like me, who sometimes wish for a skip button during plot exposition or scene description in to say something which may benefit the characters (a weak spot on the boss, a hole in the wall containing a hidden pouch, a pressure plate...)

Thank you!! I think I will just have the guy's deity get mad at him. That should work; it's a Lawful Good deity.

AuthorGirl
2016-02-28, 11:47 AM
That is really an out of character problem
You are there to have fun, and if someone is going to enact revenge, or give you a hard time whatever the reason might be, discuss it with them out of character, and if they dont stop being *****, try to find a new group.
Its usually not worth playing with idiots, unless they are really lovable idiots
They are really lovable idiots when they're not blowing things up. The hazing has mostly stopped now because I wrote up some extremely threatening house rules.

AuthorGirl
2016-02-28, 11:52 AM
Thank all of you guys for your great suggestions, it has been very very helpful. Right now, things have calmed down a lot so this thread may rapidly become irrelevant. You've all been amazing, though!
(By the way, 'Trobar Thundershield' is now gradually becoming Chaotic Evil, like was suggested. I think actually having a CE antipaladin in the party now makes everyone less inclined to blow even more stuff up that he already has, because there haven't been (many) problems lately.

8BitNinja
2016-02-29, 10:01 AM
Just remember, if too much chaos ensues, kill them off one by one until they listen

goto124
2016-02-29, 10:50 AM
If too much chaos ensues, the death will come to the characters easily enough, no need to try :smalltongue:

Kelb_Panthera
2016-03-01, 11:31 PM
How do I make people play to alignment?:smallmad:

You don't. Period. End of $&%@ing story.

You shouldn't ever tell someone how to play their character from -either- side of the screen. If you're the DM, and you are here, you have the world respond to their behavior as best you think they should and if their characterr continuously acts against the alignment written on the sheet you change the alignment on the sheet to match his behavior. Actions have consequences in a TTRPG. If the player doesn't want the consequences to happen, it's up to him to avoid those actions. Alignment change is just a consequence of acting in accordance with an alignment different from the one on your sheet.

Pardon the (self-censored) explitive but this is one of those things that -really, really- gets my dander up. It is, IMO, commiting one of the cardinal sins of TT gaming when you tell someone else how to play their character and I have only very slightly greater than zero tolerance for it.

Segev
2016-03-02, 09:29 AM
Yeah, generally, you're always better off with alignment being descriptive rather than prescriptive. That is, alignment is a rating of your behavior, not an enforcer of it.

Or, to paraphrase stock broker commercials: it's an indication of past performance, not future behavior.

8BitNinja
2016-03-02, 09:33 AM
There's only one class that has to adhere to a certain alignment, the Paladin

But I believe that Monks must be lawful in order to level, Bards have to be non-lawful, and Druids have to be neutral in some way

But any other class besides paladin can just choose how they want to live, but if you want them to stick to their alignment, reward them for doing good or lawful actions, maybe they find evil more rewarding and you just need to change that

KillianHawkeye
2016-03-02, 06:40 PM
There's only one class that has to adhere to a certain alignment, the Paladin

But I believe that Monks must be lawful in order to level, Bards have to be non-lawful, and Druids have to be neutral in some way

But any other class besides paladin can just choose how they want to live, but if you want them to stick to their alignment, reward them for doing good or lawful actions, maybe they find evil more rewarding and you just need to change that

Even so, they can choose to ignore those restrictions if they're willing to suffer the appropriate consequences. The Paladin's code does not prevent the character from performing an evil act, it just punishes them if they do.

8BitNinja
2016-03-02, 06:43 PM
Even so, they can choose to ignore those restrictions if they're willing to suffer the appropriate consequences. The Paladin's code does not prevent the character from performing an evil act, it just punishes them if they do.

That's true, but being evil makes you a first level fighter with no feats