Duskblade as a Magus archetype?

[gadren]

So, I'm preparing a campaign that combines 3.5 and Pathfinder, and while I was originally going to allow both the duskblade and magus classes, after some review they seem so similar (except with magus being better overall except Duskblade has better BAB, HP, and can 2h weapons/shields and combines a full attack with their version of spellstrike) that I think it'd be better to turn duskblade into a magus archetype (and adding all duskblade spells to the magus spell list)?

Thoughts? Do you think Duskblade and Magus are distinctive enough from each other to merit be separate classes, or would Duskblade work better as a magus archetype in a 3.5+Pathfinder game?

[Xuldarinar]

I don't think it is distinct enough to be honest. There is some interesting flavor there, and it does separate itself by being able to wield a shield and being a spontaneous caster, but the dusk blade isn't something all its own I think. They might be described as an "order" of magi, but nothing.. entirely its own.

If one wishes to accomplish the effect, I do believe that allowing the skirnir and eldritch scion archetypes to blend in some fashion would work.

[LTwerewolf]

It seems like it's extra effort for no reason. If people want to play a duskblade, just let them play a duskblade.

[Psyren]

I would approach this by tabulating the major qualities of both classes and look for similarities and differences. Then you can decide what such an archetype would change, or what you feel comfortable leaving out entirely. Something like this:



Feature
Magus
Duskblade


Hit Die
d8
d8


Skills
2+Int
2+Int


BAB
3/4
Full


Saves
Strong Fort and Will
Strong Fort and Will


Casting Stat
Int
Int


Casting Type
Arcane
Arcane


Casting Method
Prepared
Spontaneous


Spells Known
Unlimited (books)
Limited


Max Spell Level
6th
5th


Weapon Proficiencies
Simple and Martial
(Simple?) and Martial


Armor Proficiencies
Light Only (Until 7/13)
All at 1


Shield Proficiency
No
Yes


Cast in Light Armor
Available at 1
Available at 1


Cast in Medium Armor
Available at 7
Available at 4


Cast in Heavy Armor
Available at 13
N/A


Cast with Light Shield
N/A
Available at 1


Cast with Heavy Shield
N/A
Available at 7


Cast Touch Spell + Attack (Standard)
Available at 2
Available at 3


Cast Touch Spell + Full Attack (Full Round)
Available at 1
Available at 13


Cast + Attack provokes AoO
Yes (defensive casting needed)
No (does not provoke)


Deliver Multi-touch spell with full-attack
Yes
Yes


Deliver single touch spell to multiple targets
No
Yes (at 13)



Those are the major differences. Duskblade can also Sudden Quicken a standard action spell a few times per day, and get a bonus to overcome the SR of any target they damage. Magus of course gets an arcane pool, a pile of arcana that I won't go into here, 3 bonus feats, knowledge pool, spell recall, fighter training etc. etc.

Basically look at the bold lines and see if the things Magus does differently are acceptable, such as not being able to cast with shields or without provoking. If not, change them, if yes, leave them as is.

[Kurald Galain]

So, I'm preparing a campaign that combines 3.5 and Pathfinder, and while I was originally going to allow both the duskblade and magus classes, after some review they seem so similar (except with magus being better overall except Duskblade has better BAB, HP, and can 2h weapons/shields and combines a full attack with their version of spellstrike) that I think it'd be better to turn duskblade into a magus archetype (and adding all duskblade spells to the magus spell list)?

Note that the Magus effectively has full BAB due to his enchant weapon ability, and that he can use spellstrike in a full attack just fine. There's archetypes that let you use two weapons or sword-and-board if you want, but spells are generally a better defense than shields anyway.

[Chronos]

Note that the Magus effectively has full BAB due to his enchant weapon ability...
Does that grant extra iterative attacks? Does it stack with a magic weapon, either inherent or from the Greater Magic Weapon spell (which the Duskblade has)?

[Kurald Galain]

Does that grant extra iterative attacks?
No, but spellstrike does, as does hasting yourself as a swift action. Also, the Magus's spells give him pounce at level 4 and teleport pounce at level 10, making him one of the best melee classes at consistently making a full attack.


Does it stack with a magic weapon, either inherent or from the Greater Magic Weapon spell (which the Duskblade has)?
Yes, it does; and GMW is also on the Magus list.

[ColdFire2112]

Does that grant extra iterative attacks? Does it stack with a magic weapon, either inherent or from the Greater Magic Weapon spell (which the Duskblade has)?

In a way it does, since Spell Combat allows you to make all iterative attacks in addition to casting a spell, and assuming it is a touch spell, you can get an extra attack that way.

And while you don't directly make up the difference of full BAB in terms of to-hit bonus, Magi do gain arcana that allow them to add int to hit, or to target touch AC with melee attacks for the cost of a point or 2, and a swift action. Not quite free, but still powerful if the situation calls for it.

One other thing I haven't seen mentioned yet is that Spellstrike allows the spell being delivered to crit at a huge crit threat range (often 15-20), where the Duskblade cannot crit a channeled spell.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Also, Duskblade gets significantly more spells/day than Magus, which makes him better at dealing damage over a prolonged day of combat. Overall I think he's more offensive, while the Magus is more versatile-- sort of a Sorcerer-vs-Wizard kind of deal.

That being said, the are quite redundant classes. If you're using a limited list I'd say only keep one, but I don't think there's any real harm in allowing both. (They could be different schools of the same overall art or something)

EDIT: If you do make him an Archetype, I'd say the key points are:

Critting with spells -> Full Attack Channeling [even trade]
6th level spells -> 5th level spells (but more of them) [even trade]
Prepared Caster -> Spontaneous [weakens]
Medium BAB and lighter armor -> Full BAB and improving armor [strengthens]

That ought to be all you need.

[Grim Reader]

Some time back, I started some work to balance the gish classes. The Hexblade, the Magus and the Duskblade. I made comparisons similar to Psyrens at levels through their career.

My conclusions was that the Magus was simply better at most levels, and the two other classes needed added features to catch up.

I never considered making the Duskblade an archetype, but if you do, you might just use the Eldrich Scion. Its generally considered below par as a Magus archetype, so give it full BaB and sudden quickens, and rename it the Duskblade.

[Kurald Galain]

Also, Duskblade gets significantly more spells/day than Magus,
Only on paper. In practice, the opposite is the case.

First, because the Magus has the Spell Recall ability.
Second, because the Magus's spell list is actually much better than the Duskblade's.
And third, because once you get to level 10 or so, both classes simply cast enough spells per day that they won't run out ever. At that point, what matters is how many high level spells they cast per day, which the Magus clearly wins (e.g. Magus/11 has three 4th level spells, or five with spell recall, whereas dusky/11 has zero).

That means that effectively the Magus has significantly more good spells per day than the dusky.



Critting with spells -> Full Attack Channeling [even trade]
Critting at level one is not the same as full channeling at level thirteen. Furthermore, full channeling is better on paper than in actual gameplay, because it's pretty rare to have more than two creatures standing next to you.

[Psyren]

One other thing I haven't seen mentioned yet is that Spellstrike allows the spell being delivered to crit at a huge crit threat range (often 15-20), where the Duskblade cannot crit a channeled spell.

Good catch - that's also a big one.



6th level spells -> 5th level spells (but more of them) [even trade]


As Kurald pointed out, this isn't actually an even trade - the Magus gets more of the spells that matter, and Spell Recall messes with the spells/day math at the lower end too. In addition, Knowledge Pool lets the Magus access its whole list on the fly (just leave some slots empty), while the Duskblade is strictly limited to its spells known. I would just slap on Diminished Spellcasting and otherwise let the "Duskblade archetype" go up to 6ths.

[Grim Reader]

Only on paper. In practice, the opposite is the case.

First, because the Magus has the Spell Recall ability.
Second, because the Magus's spell list is actually much better than the Duskblade's.
And third, because once you get to level 10 or so, both classes simply cast enough spells per day that they won't run out ever. At that point, what matters is how many high level spells they cast per day, which the Magus clearly wins (e.g. Magus/11 has three 4th level spells, or five with spell recall, whereas dusky/11 has zero).

That means that effectively the Magus has significantly more good spells per day than the dusky.

As I remember, I compared the number of spell levels per day available to each class. The Duskblade had no clear advantage by that measure. The Magus higher level spells made up for the Dusklades greater number of lower level spells.

Basically they had mostly similar numbers of spell levels available, but the Magus ones were tied up in higher level slots. Which is better.

[Pluto!]

Turning Duskblade into an archetype seems like a way to do a good bit of work without actually accomplishing much.

It seems a little awkward for them to coexist, but they do fill somewhat different roles - the Duskblade is to the Magus what the Barbarian is to the Duskblade.

[gadren]

Maybe instead of an archetype, I should just say Duskblade is an alternate class (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/alternate-classes) of Magus instead, and just give it some Magus abilities for it to keep up.

[tropical_punch]

what the Barbarian is to the Duskblade.

Do you mean fighter?

[Pluto!]

Do you mean fighter?
I mean whichever class prefers a jackhammer to a toolbox.

[Psyren]

I mean whichever class prefers a jackhammer to a toolbox.

He was pointing out that you said Duskblade twice in your analogy.


Maybe instead of an archetype, I should just say Duskblade is an alternate class (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/alternate-classes) of Magus instead, and just give it some Magus abilities for it to keep up.

Alternate classes are basically archetypes by another name - you'd still have to do the work of figuring out which features to port over, which not, and whether they replace anything from the existing Duskblade.

Which doesn't have to be a difficult exercise mind you - it's all about what you want the finished product to look like.

Personally, I'd start with Magus, make it spontaneous and then port over the ability to use shields and multi-hit with single-touch spells. I would also force the Duskblade to cast defensively (but give it the X autoquickens per day to get around that limitation in an emergency.)