20 level Wizard sides with NK!

[Xar Zarath]

A 20th level Wizard pops into our world one day and decides to take up with a country perceived as an "enemy" by most countries. So what would happen if a Wizard decides to aid North Korea??

Conditions:
-Magic functions as normal
-9th level spells are out. Not allowed by any means/shenanigans/cheese
-Spells in the Spellbook in link are the only spells allowed. Wizard decided to bring this only spellbook with him. Silly Wizzy:smalltongue:

As for spellbook: http://www.imarvintpa.com/dndlive/Index_Book.php?Book=Ultimate (Disregard 9th level spells)

[Segev]

Well, we're given very little info about this wizard.

I'll tackle alignment posibilities.

If he's Evil-aligned, "aid" means "take over," so we immediately have a whole new regime in power. Little likely changes externally for some time as he determines how best to use his new fiefdom for his own ends. If he's of the world-dominating mindset, he'll swiftly be at war with either China or the US (depending on whether he tries to take over South Korea or China first), and then we're into the question of how you deal with a 20th level wizard vs. a first-world military. Which we've had other threads on.

If he's Neutral-aligned, then he must have some reason for doing so. Either NK's government is savvy enough to give him space in exchange for toys, or they're stupid enough to try to "control" him through force and threat. The former case is probably the most interesting, as magic spells used for infrastructure and for creation of magic weapons and tools to tilt things in NK's despotic regime's favor would start to warp how that nation is able to manipulate and outright attack the rest of the world. The latter would wind up looking a lot like the Evil-aligned version, in that it would end with the wizard ruling. If he's not of the world-conquest mindset (and few Neutral people are), it probably stops there. He might put some new government in place to run it for him, or he might run it personally. Things likely improve if only because casting a few spells to make the peasants stop complaining is easier than executing them.

If he's Good-aligned, conquest is pretty much guaranteed, as well, but this time because no Good person would tolerate that regime and how it treats its people. A much stronger focus on infrastructure improvements would follow, but if there's war, it's likely due to the fear of the growth being enacted and instigated by outside forces, since Good-aligned people are less likely to simply launch into it. (This is predicated on the assumption given in the problem, that the wizard has decided to "side with" North Korea. Since he's already decided to, conquest is an option.) If he's motivated to conquer oppressed nations to improve them, he may just start a war with China shortly after consolidating his power, if he doesn't have other means of securing control and change in China. (And let's face it, if he doesn't have Enchantment banned, he has means to do it non-violently if he really wants.)

I leave the Law/Chaos axis out of this because that doesn't really change the above general cases. It might shape the kind of government the conquest-oriented scenarios put in place, but it wouldn't change overall behavior in terms of how the "aid" manifests. A 20th level wizard is so far above mortal law enforcement that he's unlikely to choose to align his conception of Order, no matter how Lawful he is, with the idea that he should be subjected to laws as oppressive as those of NK. So Lawful or Chaotic, he's going to position himself in a "not bound by your tyrannical whims" sort of way wrt the NK government, even if he doesn't out-and-out take over.

[Thanatosia]

It really doesn't matter what nation he 'sides' with, he ends up in total uncontested control of the entire world. Armies are completely irrelivent - Between invisibility, etherealness, time stop, teleport, and various mind control abilites with no magical protections or countermeasures in existance; every world leader is his puppet - he can get at anyone, anywhere, undetected, and make them do whatever he wants.

[Aharon]

Does all magic work as in d&d, or are there limits?

For example, one might assune earth is on a Material plane with the dead magic trait, so he can only cast via invoke magic/planar bubble etc. If this were the case, things are harder - Otherwise he's likely to win, depending on the spells in his spellbook. If you gave us a spell list, this would also make this scenario more interesting.

[AvatarVecna]

The answer to the question "who wins in a fight: this thing, or this other thing with the aid of a 20th level Wizard", the answer is "the 20th level Wizard", with very very few exceptions. What happens if a level 20 Wizard was dropped into our real-life world, as of right now? Whatever the ****ing hell the Wizard wants to happen.

Hell, if you dropped a 1st level wizard into our real-life world with the existing XP/level-up system, and that Wizard knew how said system worked, he could level up to 17, possibly even without being detected if he was careful about it. Sure, to reach 17th level, you'd need to slaughter a bunch of giant squids, but that's only really necessary near the end, and you'll have 8th lvl spells to help, so it shouldn't be difficult...even to remain hidden. Of course, until I find a CR 10 real-life creature, I don't think you can level up beyond that by RAW, but even a few 9th level spells means unlimited power for a clever wizard.

[ben-zayb]

It really doesn't matter what nation he 'sides' with, he ends up in total uncontested control of the entire world. Armies are completely irrelivent - Between invisibility, etherealness, time stop, teleport, and various mind control abilites with no magical protections or countermeasures in existance; every world leader is his puppet - he can get at anyone, anywhere, undetected, and make them do whatever he wants.

This.

If the Wizard decides conquering the world to be (possibly short-term) goal, the choice of side doesn't matter, whether it's NK or some other country. All of it will likely become a barely seen footnote in history, if written at all.

[ryu]

The answer to the question "who wins in a fight: this thing, or this other thing with the aid of a 20th level Wizard", the answer is "the 20th level Wizard", with very very few exceptions. What happens if a level 20 Wizard was dropped into our real-life world, as of right now? Whatever the ****ing hell the Wizard wants to happen.

Hell, if you dropped a 1st level wizard into our real-life world with the existing XP/level-up system, and that Wizard knew how said system worked, he could level up to 17, possibly even without being detected if he was careful about it. Sure, to reach 17th level, you'd need to slaughter a bunch of giant squids, but that's only really necessary near the end, and you'll have 8th lvl spells to help, so it shouldn't be difficult...even to remain hidden. Of course, until I find a CR 10 real-life creature, I don't think you can level up beyond that by RAW, but even a few 9th level spells means unlimited power for a clever wizard.

Just encounter a large number of moderately CRed creatures then. Possibly in one of the more wild/dangerous places like Africa or Australia. You can totally have a more dangerous encounter than the highest CR single creature you can find.

[AvatarVecna]

Just encounter a large number of moderately CRed creatures then. Possibly in one of the more wild/dangerous places like Africa or Australia. You can totally have a more dangerous encounter than the highest CR single creature you can find.

While that's true in a sense (obviously a group of creatures is more dangerous than its individual members), and a high number of creatures gets a higher group CR (and gives more XP), the individual creatures have to be considered a threat by the XP system in order for the group to grant any XP as well, at least by RAW. A 5th lvl Wizard who fireballs 20 Kobold Warrior 1s gets 1500 XP from the encounter, because individual kobolds are considered a threat to a 5th lvl character; meanwhile, a 10th lvl Wizard can fireball 20 Kobold Warrior 1s and get absolutely nothing, because the Wizard has become powerful enough that said Kobold Warriors just aren't threatening anymore. A giant squid is CR 9 on its, and thus can grant XP to a 16th lvl character...but not to a 17th lvl one, because giant squid aren't a powerful enough threat to be considered a threat to a ECL 17 character, even in large groups.

Mind you, I haven't looked over the entire list of 3.5 animals yet, so it's possible that there's a higher CR creature that can be exploited to raise our level further; up until I typed this sentence, I hadn't even considered looking at vermin or swarms, so that's another possibility. Alternatively, we could use Planar Binding or similar spells to summon up powerful creatures for the solitary purpose of murdering them for XP.

[ryu]

While that's true in a sense (obviously a group of creatures is more dangerous than its individual members), and a high number of creatures gets a higher group CR (and gives more XP), the individual creatures have to be considered a threat by the XP system in order for the group to grant any XP as well, at least by RAW. A 5th lvl Wizard who fireballs 20 Kobold Warrior 1s gets 1500 XP from the encounter, because individual kobolds are considered a threat to a 5th lvl character; meanwhile, a 10th lvl Wizard can fireball 20 Kobold Warrior 1s and get absolutely nothing, because the Wizard has become powerful enough that said Kobold Warriors just aren't threatening anymore. A giant squid is CR 9 on its, and thus can grant XP to a 16th lvl character...but not to a 17th lvl one, because giant squid aren't a powerful enough threat to be considered a threat to a ECL 17 character, even in large groups.

Mind you, I haven't looked over the entire list of 3.5 animals yet, so it's possible that there's a higher CR creature that can be exploited to raise our level further; up until I typed this sentence, I hadn't even considered looking at vermin or swarms, so that's another possibility. Alternatively, we could use Planar Binding or similar spells to summon up powerful creatures for the solitary purpose of murdering them for XP.

I thought the limit went off the calculated CR of the encounter with diminishing returns on numbers accounted for by how sharply the required number of creatures of a given CR grows to reach higher calculated CRs? Surely at the very least there's given CRs for terrifying pieces of tech in like D20 modern or something? For that matter what about just directly modifying species in known ways, travel through time to a few years later, and killing some mutant descendents? You know magic can do it. Magic always finds a way. Like evil in the overlord series.

[AvatarVecna]

I thought the limit went off the calculated CR of the encounter with diminishing returns on numbers accounted for by how sharply the required number of creatures of a given CR grows to reach higher calculated CRs? Surely at the very least there's given CRs for terrifying pieces of tech in like D20 modern or something? For that matter what about just directly modifying species in known ways, travel through time to a few years later, and killing some mutant descendents? You know magic can do it. Magic always finds a way. Like evil in the overlord series.

I'm off to look up the exact rule as I type this, but the way I recall the rule working was about the individual monsters; my supporting recollections (which again I expect to be verifying within minutes via rules quotes) are that this was one of the major things I was glad 4th edition fixed (hell, one of the only things it fixed, IMO, but it was still a great change); my other recollection regarding this rule is that it's been used as a punchline (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0439.html)

As for modifying existing creatures, that could work too, especially if he was breeding them long-term...and maybe using Wish (or Limited Wish) to help things along. Hell, just sufficient ranks in Animal Handling and enough time, and he could "breed" his flock into having advanced HD, which could accomplish things...but that kind of significant breeding would likely take awhile, so hopefully he could find a way to either accomplish things faster or give himself plenty of extra time (like eating a hobo's life force or something).

I'm sure there's other more esoteric magicky BS that can be used to reach levels beyond 17th as well, but at least part of my point is that a Wizard who reaches 17th level has already achieved the point where his magical powers are beyond what we're capable of dealing with, and using just animals that exist in our real world, he can reach level 17 without having to cheat his way around the space-time continuum or play god with magically-enhanced genetic engineering.

[ryu]

Also the wizard doesn't need to get to 17 to beat us handily. I'm convinced an intelligently played level 9 wizard could kick our world's collective hindquarters using nothing but teleport, planar binding, and some intelligent divinations. Does anyone here truly think we've a chance against even that?

[AvatarVecna]

Found the relevant rule. Quoting:




To determine the XP award for an encounter, follow these steps.
Determine each character’s level. Don’t forget to account for ECL (see Monsters as Races, page 172) if any of the characters are of a powerful race.
For each monster defeated, determine that single monster’s Challenge Rating.
Use Table 2–6: Experience Point Awards (Single Monster) to cross-reference one character’s level with the Challenge Rating for each defeated monster to find the base XP award.
Divide the base XP award by the number of characters in the party. This is the amount of XP that one character receives for helping defeat that monster.
Add up all the XP awards for all the monsters the character helped defeat.
Repeat the process for each character.

Bolded for emphasis. By RAW, XP is determined by the individual monster's threat to the party; if the individual monster is not considered threatening to the individual character, then no XP is gained. The table doesn't even go down in CR far enough to list what kobolds are worth, we have to use a sidebar to determine their individual XP. And by RAW, a CR 9 creature, individually, provides 400 XP for a ECL 16 character, and 0 XP for a ECL 17 character. Now, a lenient DM might bend things that way, but our reality's DM is either a total hardass who gives nobody such leniency, or they're biased towards the masses, depending on your opinion, and either way they're not going to give the Wizard any more advantage than "being a mother****ing Wizard", because "being a mother****ing wizard" is enough of an advantage already.


Also the wizard doesn't need to get to 17 to beat us handily. I'm convinced an intelligently played level 9 wizard could kick our world's collective hindquarters using nothing but teleport, planar binding, and some intelligent divinations. Does anyone here truly think we've a chance against even that?

Oh absolutely not. I'm a bit too tired to pinpoint the exact moment it happens, but the Wizard becomes un-defeatable when they become completely self-sufficient...as in, the Wizard doesn't need the world for anything other than XP gain anymore. Food, water, a safe place to sleep...if the wizard has all of these things, they can go off the grid completely, and a Wizard trying their damnedest to stay hidden is gonna stay hidden as long as they stay away from society. Alternatively, a wizard who isn't totally self-sufficient, but has enough mind-altering stuff to erase his existence from the minds of anybody who might notice him somehow is effectively as untraceable...and fighting an enemy you don't even know exists requires them to slip up and inform you of their existence by accident, which is something a properly paranoid wizard will not do.

Hell, 7th lvl wizard can show up to a meeting of Congress/the UN/some vague-but-menacing government agency, figuratively and literally walk through any security forces trying to detain him (aka them ones he didn't mind-screw into not noticing him/not caring about him), and then polymorph into a Nymph. Such a room of politicians is likely to be filled with aging Aristocrats, so their Fort saves are probably crap from bad save progression and age penalties to Constitution (not to mention their likely more mentally-focused in their attributes), so a good number of them will be blinded. The Wizard finds a way to escape unmolested (whether via illusions, invisibility, Dimension Door, etc.), and any of the politicians lucky enough to get a nat 20 will be accused of being behind the attack. And that's just if the wizard decides they want to kick the hornet's nest for ****s and giggles, they could just as easily walk in there and start spamming Chained Charm Person until everybody's got a dopey smile on their face.

[Xar Zarath]

Does all magic work as in d&d, or are there limits?

For example, one might assune earth is on a Material plane with the dead magic trait, so he can only cast via invoke magic/planar bubble etc. If this were the case, things are harder - Otherwise he's likely to win, depending on the spells in his spellbook. If you gave us a spell list, this would also make this scenario more interesting.

There are limits (I will amend OP):
-Magic functions as normal
-9th level spells are out. Not allowed by any means/shenanigans/cheese

As for spellbook: http://www.imarvintpa.com/dndlive/Index_Book.php?Book=Ultimate (Disregard 9th level spells)

Spells in the Spellbook in link are the only spells allowed. Wizard decided to bring this only spellbook with him. Silly Wizzy

[ryu]

There are limits (I will amend OP):
-Magic functions as normal
-9th level spells are out. Not allowed by any means/shenanigans/cheese

As for spellbook: http://www.imarvintpa.com/dndlive/Index_Book.php?Book=Ultimate (Disregard 9th level spells)

Spells in the Spellbook in link are the only spells allowed. Wizard decided to bring this only spellbook with him. Silly Wizzy

Unless that spellbook is woefully understocked, which I suspect it isn't, the wizard achieves world domination. For goodness sake we already pointed out the horrible things you could do with access to just fourth level spells and below. You're allowing eighths and below. Eight is a significantly bigger number than four.

[Aharon]

Unless that spellbook is woefully understocked, which I suspect it isn't, the wizard achieves world domination. For goodness sake we already pointed out the horrible things you could do with access to just fourth level spells and below. You're allowing eighths and below. Eight is a significantly bigger number than four.

Greater Planar Binding, Clone, Simulacrum and Polymorph any Object are on the list. Earth is toast.

[ryu]

Greater Planar Binding, Clone, Simulacrum and Polymorph any Object are on the list. Earth is toast.

Yeah.... We just got thoroughly rekt.

[Elderand]

Greater Planar Binding, Clone, Simulacrum and Polymorph any Object are on the list. Earth is toast.

With polymorph any object earth is literally toast.
The only real question is whether it falls butter side up.

[AMFV]

Well the chief problem with this hypothetical is that:

A.) 20th level wizards aren't a thing, since magic works in ways that are strongly contrary to real world physics, large bits of it couldn't work as written, at least not without requiring fundamental shifts in the way the world operates.

B.) A 20th level Wizard in D&D has increased hit points, does that mechanic persevere. That one is much more important otherwise a nuke or somebody with mundane stealth could take care of him. After all in our world there may or may not be alternative planes.

C.) How does planar cosmology work? That affects pretty much most of magic pretty heavily.

[ryu]

With polymorph any object earth is literally toast.
The only real question is whether it falls butter side up.

Depends. Did everyone and everything on earth also change or is the toast the most massive thing around? For that matter what the nerts happens to the moon? Would it maybe end up in another planet's orbit or perhaps be on an incredibly slow ''fall'' into the sun?

[darksolitaire]

Just encounter a large number of moderately CRed creatures then. Possibly in one of the more wild/dangerous places like Africa or Australia. You can totally have a more dangerous encounter than the highest CR single creature you can find.

A meteor killed bunch of most dangerous creatures on Earth once. Now, imagine what a Meteor Swam can do. :smallamused:

Yes it technically wasn't a meteor but anyway.

[AMFV]

Depends. Did everyone and everything on earth also change or is the toast the most massive thing around? For that matter what the nerts happens to the moon? Would it maybe end up in another planet's orbit or perhaps be on an incredibly slow ''fall'' into the sun?

Exactly, once you bring in real world physics magic gets weird.

[ryu]

Exactly, once you bring in real world physics magic gets weird.

Oh that's not a problem. It's just that you have to find answers for the questions raised. What you have to realize is that nothing in that paragraph I just made has gone without representation at my table at some point. I would remind everyone here that I took Archimedes as the chief inspiration for my D&D playstyle. Not the messenger god either. The most practical, scary, mad scientist inventor of all time to actually exist.

[AMFV]

Oh that's not a problem. It's just that you have to find answers for the questions raised. What you have to realize is that nothing in that paragraph I just made has gone without representation at my table at some point. I would remind everyone here that I took Archimedes as the chief inspiration for my D&D playstyle. Not the messenger god either. The most practical, scary, mad scientist inventor of all time to actually exist.

Well the fundamental problem is that things in D&D work profoundly differently. Not that one can't use science to examine the potential effects of D&D on the real world. In real life, when you shoots somebody three times (two to the chest, one to the head), they die, in almost all cases. A 20th level wizard certainly wouldn't (not to mention other things). In real life matter CANNOT be created from nothing (whereas in D&D it can). In real life energy doesn't come from other planes. These sort of things make everything weird. Of course we can speculate, but once we start having to make judgments outside the rules, it turns into a fairly arbitrary exercise (although not necessarily an unfun one)

[ryu]

Well the fundamental problem is that things in D&D work profoundly differently. Not that one can't use science to examine the potential effects of D&D on the real world. In real life, when you shoots somebody three times (two to the chest, one to the head), they die, in almost all cases. A 20th level wizard certainly wouldn't (not to mention other things). In real life matter CANNOT be created from nothing (whereas in D&D it can). In real life energy doesn't come from other planes. These sort of things make everything weird. Of course we can speculate, but once we start having to make judgments outside the rules, it turns into a fairly arbitrary exercise (although not necessarily an unfun one)

Very little speculation is actually required. Game has rules for what happens in these situations and those do happen. Outside that any side effects you care to name are simply fluff that won't likely have practical effect on the fight itself.

[AMFV]

Very little speculation is actually required. Game has rules for what happens in these situations and those do happen. Outside that any side effects you care to name are simply fluff that won't likely have practical effect on the fight itself.

Game rules are abstractions intended to simulate a sort of pseudo reality though. Applying them to actual reality is going to cause problems. Period.

What happens when those are in direct conflict? Even hit points (an abstraction) doesn't work with real reality (people die really easily often from simple injuries, and in unexpected ways, or in the reverse case, often survive things that would prove absolutely fatal in D&D). Experience Points is another example (and one that was cited earlier).

I also disagree strenuously that "side effects" from fundamentally changing the rules of reality, would have little practical effect, changing the rules would have such drastic and unpredictable effects as to make the whole thing an exercise in absurdity. Every time you have a conflict between the rules and reality, you'd have to make a ruling, which pushes the whole thing into a quasi-absurd system. Would the wizard immediately get radiation poisoning and die from the effects of his magic (certainly a possibility)? Would the universe collapse or drastically shift due to matter being created (who knows?)? There are too many things we simply cannot calculate because we are using two things that don't work together.

The only way you can make this work is by either figuring out a way to make the magic less disruptive (which bans a crapload of spells), and then the scenario is easy: Wizard eventually gets shot and dies, or wizard catches disease and dies (since his immune system is poor since D&D diseases are not communicable in the same way that human diseases are, and he wouldn't have a natural immunity), or wizard eventually makes an error in regards to real world physics and dies. The alternative is importing our world into 3.5, in which case it would go the wizard's way (in most general cases).

[Âmesang]

Admittedly my first thought was the wizard dropping onto our world and taking 20d6 falling damage, but then I noticed she knows feather fall. :smalltongue: But does she have it prepared?

Actually this kind of topic has crossed my mind at times, usually with the idea of a D&D character shattering the British government back into the Heptarchy, recreating the Holy Roman or Ottoman Empire, or some other such thing. A shame it's not an epic wizard; she might be able to move continents and recreate Pangea. Then populate it with dinosaurs via origin of species. Just 'cause.

…what race is this wizard? 'Cause an elf wizard saying "things were better back in my day" has new meaning when said character is centuries old.

EDIT: What am I thinking? Why go the "world conqueror" route when you could just take a page out of Mordenkainen's playbook and open up a film studio! :smallcool:

[ryu]

Game rules are abstractions intended to simulate a sort of pseudo reality though. Applying them to actual reality is going to cause problems. Period.

What happens when those are in direct conflict? Even hit points (an abstraction) doesn't work with real reality (people die really easily often from simple injuries, and in unexpected ways, or in the reverse case, often survive things that would prove absolutely fatal in D&D). Experience Points is another example (and one that was cited earlier).

I also disagree strenuously that "side effects" from fundamentally changing the rules of reality, would have little practical effect, changing the rules would have such drastic and unpredictable effects as to make the whole thing an exercise in absurdity. Every time you have a conflict between the rules and reality, you'd have to make a ruling, which pushes the whole thing into a quasi-absurd system. Would the wizard immediately get radiation poisoning and die from the effects of his magic (certainly a possibility)? Would the universe collapse or drastically shift due to matter being created (who knows?)? There are too many things we simply cannot calculate because we are using two things that don't work together.

The only way you can make this work is by either figuring out a way to make the magic less disruptive (which bans a crapload of spells), and then the scenario is easy: Wizard eventually gets shot and dies, or wizard catches disease and dies (since his immune system is poor since D&D diseases are not communicable in the same way that human diseases are, and he wouldn't have a natural immunity), or wizard eventually makes an error in regards to real world physics and dies. The alternative is importing our world into 3.5, in which case it would go the wizard's way (in most general cases).

See that's just it though. None of your fancy ''real world'' physics matter to the wizard so long as his spells continue to do what they say they do. That they do is implied in the nature of the question itself. We weren't asked what would happen if a level twenty wizard ported ruled and rebalanced showed up in our world. We were asked simply what would happen with a level twenty wizard appeared.

[AMFV]

See that's just it though. None of your fancy ''real world'' physics matter to the wizard so long as his spells continue to do what they say they do. That they do is implied in the nature of the question itself. We weren't asked what would happen if a level twenty wizard ported ruled and rebalanced showed up in our world. We were asked simply what would happen with a level twenty wizard appeared.

And I've pointed out that we can't ascertain that. Because there are too many different ways that magic can interact with the real world. Even assuming that his spells act as written. The complexity of the real world is too vast for that to work. Do they produce radiation (many of them should), do they alter the mass of objects (as written many of them should), what happens to a complex system when you introduce something like this? There is literally no way to say.

What you're arguing for is to create a 3.5 version of North Korea (and Earth), in which case approximation is easy.

What I'm arguing is that real life is too complicated. Hell even the wizard's hit points don't work appropriately, certainly his immune system doesn't.

[ryu]

And I've pointed out that we can't ascertain that. Because there are too many different ways that magic can interact with the real world. Even assuming that his spells act as written. The complexity of the real world is too vast for that to work. Do they produce radiation (many of them should), do they alter the mass of objects (as written many of them should), what happens to a complex system when you introduce something like this? There is literally no way to say.

What you're arguing for is to create a 3.5 version of North Korea (and Earth), in which case approximation is easy.

What I'm arguing is that real life is too complicated. Hell even the wizard's hit points don't work appropriately, certainly his immune system doesn't.

The answer to all of your questions is very simple. No, unless explicitly stated otherwise within the spell itself. See? Simple.

Further hitpoints are irrelevant because the wizard is under no obligation to allow a scenario where he would be harmed as we certainly don't have the tools to force the issue, also there are magic effects that explicitly prevent disease. That's also irrelevant as a result.

[AMFV]

The answer to all of your questions is very simple. No, unless explicitly stated otherwise within the spell itself. See? Simple.

Further hitpoints are irrelevant because the wizard is under no obligation to allow a scenario where he would be harmed as we certainly don't have the tools to force the issue, also there are magic effects that explicitly prevent disease. That's also irrelevant as a result.

Then he dies, due to disease, almost immediately. D&D doesn't have rules for measles, mumps, chickenpox, rubella, or any of the disorders that we vaccinate against.

What defenses does the Wizard have against mundane stealth? Getting shot? You can shoot somebody from a very great distance, artillery has a range measured in miles, and you don't even have to see your target. ICBMs can hit anything anywhere, and can destroy it as long as they have a vague idea of it's location.

How does the wizard cast plane shift? Etherealness? Since other planes do not interact in the same way, are those planes abruptly created on our world?

[Âmesang]

Then he dies, due to disease, almost immediately. D&D doesn't have rules for measles, mumps, chickenpox, rubella, or any of the disorders that we vaccinate against.
He makes a Fortitude save, of course. Hopefully he remembered to pack his cloak of resistance +5. :smallamused:

[Thanatosia]

The Physics issues are pretty much irrelivent as well unless you just declare magic doesn't work at all, in which case you don't really have a lv20 wizard. The things like the physical parameters - radius and damage of a fireball just don't matter assuming you can still dominate person, go invisible, teleport around, etc. If they work, the world is his playground. It doesn't even matter how the abstractions of Hitpoints translates into the world, because if he's smart with contingency use, even if you manage to suprise-assassinate him, even if you just nuke him from orbit (it's the only way to be sure normally) he'll just pop back to life in a safe refuge. Who cares the exact way real world diseases translate into D&D terms when there are a number of ways a 20th level caster can just get blanket immunity or instantly cure any disease. And unless his ego takes over and makes himself go flashy/showy, there's no reason he'd even let us know he's taken over the world, it can all be done somewhat subtlely with no need to ever reveal himself.

[AMFV]

He makes a Fortitude save, of course. Hopefully he remembered to pack his cloak of resistance +5. :smallamused:

But real world diseases don't allow fortitude saves. So it wouldn't work.

As you can see this turns into a hodgepodge mess very quickly.

[AvatarVecna]

Magic doesn't operate on the same rules of physics as our world does, the two are incompatible. The only way to look at this question logically is not to figure out a way for the two systems to interact, but determining which system is considered to have precedent. I can already hear you typing "reality has precedent, because it's real", and I'll agree that you are generally correct...however, the specific circumstances of throwing magic into the mix serve as an exception to the rule, as is the long-existing rule "specific trumps general". Either magic works regardless of reality, or reality works regardless of magic.

That's not to say that one couldn't come up with a pseudo-sciency explanation for how magic works, just that there would inevitably be steps in the process that are simply "then magic **** happens". How does "True Creation" create something from nothing? Magic happens, and the magical energy in the world around the wizard forms into matter. Sure, it's not something humans are currently capable of pulling off, because of the energy required and the lack of a process that doesn't involve the phrase "huge explosion", but just because we can't do it with our current level of technology and science doesn't mean the wizard can't do it with his current level of item-crafting and arcane knowledge.

As for blowing up the wizard, how? I'm sure we've got the firepower, but not the aiming technology: a wizard capable of 8th level spells, especially with this spell list, will not be detected by us. Not in the "I don't know where to aim the missile" way, but in the "why am I aiming the missile" way; the problem is that we'll never know the wizard was here unless the wizard chooses to inform us of his existence; otherwise, we won't even know there's a threat to humanity whistling his way to world domination.

[Aharon]

@Xar Zarath:
I don't want to hijack your thread, but the conclusion for this scenario is pretty clear. How about something slightly different? Let's drop Xykon, as statted here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=18643432&postcount=3) in North Korea...

[AMFV]

Magic doesn't operate on the same rules of physics as our world does, the two are incompatible. The only way to look at this question logically is not to figure out a way for the two systems to interact, but determining which system is considered to have precedent. I can already hear you typing "reality has precedent, because it's real", and I'll agree that you are generally correct...however, the specific circumstances of throwing magic into the mix serve as an exception to the rule, as is the long-existing rule "specific trumps general". Either magic works regardless of reality, or reality works regardless of magic.

That is true, if we're applying RAW to the world, in reality precedent matters less than reasoning and explanation. Things that have precedent but are less sensible, do not work in science, only in courts of law. Otherwise reality will have precedence, or reality will be fundamentally different. My argument is that if we are altering reality to account for magic, it's going to be so different as to be entirely unpredictable.



That's not to say that one couldn't come up with a pseudo-sciency explanation for how magic works, just that there would inevitably be steps in the process that are simply "then magic **** happens". How does "True Creation" create something from nothing? Magic happens, and the magical energy in the world around the wizard forms into matter. Sure, it's not something humans are currently capable of pulling off, because of the energy required and the lack of a process that doesn't involve the phrase "huge explosion", but just because we can't do it with our current level of technology and science doesn't mean the wizard can't do it with his current level of item-crafting and arcane knowledge.

True, and there are too many possible answers to this, that's what I was arguing. That we would need to come up with the pseudo-sciency thing, and because there are so many possible pseudo-psciency explanations, we can't answer the question properly with the information as given.



As for blowing up the wizard, how? I'm sure we've got the firepower, but not the aiming technology: a wizard capable of 8th level spells, especially with this spell list, will not be detected by us. Not in the "I don't know where to aim the missile" way, but in the "why am I aiming the missile" way; the problem is that we'll never know the wizard was here unless the wizard chooses to inform us of his existence; otherwise, we won't even know there's a threat to humanity whistling his way to world domination.

Which spells? How do they prevent mundane detection? I mean you might argue for invisibility, but that doesn't prevent a host of modern detection methods (certainly not those based on motion or heat). Of course the Wizard might be able to hide, but the more effort he has to put into hiding, the less he's able to effectively dominate the world. In the end, one person, simply cannot conquer the world, magic aside, the bureaucracy is completely unmanageable. So he would need to obtain allies, and that's how you really figure it out.

In this case, he's aligned with North Korea, which is one of the most heavily watched countries in the world, a sudden shift in their policy would certainly be noticed, and they aren't good at hiding things. They don't need to know exactly where the wizard is to obliterate him. Frankly we have the raw power to obliterate all life on this planet, so that's kind of a moot point. In the end the Wizard's ability to survive comes down to exactly how his magic interacts with reality, which is an issue, and could be answered multiple ways.

Without having strict rules for how the interaction happens, we can't make any kind of assumption.


@Xar Zarath:
I don't want to hijack your thread, but the conclusion for this scenario is pretty clear. How about something slightly different? Let's drop Xykon, as statted here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=18643432&postcount=3) in North Korea...

I disagree completely, the scenario is COMPLETELY unclear, without a proper explanation of how magic interacts with the real world.

[Vizzerdrix]

Hmm...Nope. I'm gonna have to say that the wiz is going to bite the dust just as soon as anyone figures out whats' up, and that is IF he doesn't die to a virus first. I suspect he can't make anything that an Apache or mortar strike couldn't deal with in short order, and Mass Teleport only matters if North Korea had any form of well trained troops, and honestly, their military is a joke, so they would get one or two good hits in, most likely with dirty bombs, then they'd get hammered until South Korea was an island.

He has Teleport Object, but I doubt N. Korea could even make a nuke, let alone one that weighs 1000 lbs or less so that is a non issue.

[Segev]

The only way these exercises are even vaguely meaningful is if we accept that spells do what they say they do, and that "saves" are representing something that everybody has, as are hp, etc. But the only real concern is what the spells say they do. A level 20 wizard can obviate nearly every other aspect of the system if he wants.


Then he dies, due to disease, almost immediately. D&D doesn't have rules for measles, mumps, chickenpox, rubella, or any of the disorders that we vaccinate against.If he doesn't have some arcane version of remove disesase, then the level 20 wizard wishes or limited wishes for it in order to cure himself permanently. This is a silly grasp at straws to dodge the question that's being asked.


What defenses does the Wizard have against mundane stealth? Getting shot? You can shoot somebody from a very great distance, artillery has a range measured in miles, and you don't even have to see your target. ICBMs can hit anything anywhere, and can destroy it as long as they have a vague idea of it's location.This is a more legitimate question. However, between contact other plane, legend lore, and foresight, not to mention contingent spells to get him out of danger, you won't catch him by surprise and with his metaphorical drawers down, when you'd need both to actually stop this wizard.

Moreover, the clever wizard operates enough in the shadows that the major world powers don't know of the threat while they have the wherewithal to send ICBMs and other such things after him. And that's assuming they have the will to do it (a question that is raised more and more often with the real world's leadership right now). Our wizard is already the best friend of every important person who could possibly threaten him with major world power structures by virtue of being their biggest campaign donor thanks to wall of iron and other money-making shenanigans, let alone such things as charm person and dominate monster for the most recalcitrant of global power-brokers.

In short, his defenses are substantial against all of these things.


How does the wizard cast plane shift? Etherealness? Since other planes do not interact in the same way, are those planes abruptly created on our world?"On" our world? No. But the assumption is that they're already there and our world is part of the multiverse. Otherwise, you're not really engaging in the exercise as it is fundamentally presented.

[Âmesang]

Hell, just because we don't know something's there doesn't mean it's not there, right? I'm sure someone could make an argument about a pre-existing Ethereal Plane as the explanation for ghost sightings in our world.

Granted, I also see the acquisition of hit points as a character's adaptation to the ever increasing threats surrounding him; continued adventures against powerful foes gradually builds up one's resistance, a kind of "whatever doesn't kill you makes you stronger," and if one can walk away from dragon fire I can imagine such a character shaking off gun fire and explosions.

I mean rules and stats are just abstractions, and it's hard to compare a D&D wizard to a real person when said real person doesn't experience the same challenges the wizard has over his long career. Yeah, the wizard can make a "Fortitude save" against our diseases and illnesses in that his body has developed a natural resilience to all sorts of foul things that even the Bubonic Plague seems a mere trifling thing in comparison. Sure, he may have never come into contact with Ebola… but he's likely come into contact with Mummy Rot — something arguably far worse. Furthermore that wizard, or any D&D character with sufficient Knowledge bonuses, could discover something that we have yet to — something that gives him an edge in how he lives his life, toughens his body, sharpens his mind, &c.

(I can see that as a reason for statting out guys like Bruce Lee as no more than 2nd-level because the guys he fought, while many skilled in their own right, were still just ordinary humans — not ogres, giants, aberrations, planar-beings, &c. There's only so much "experience" one can gain from such challenges before reaching a limit… a limit that could only be properly broken by facing challenges well beyond anything our natural world has to offer.)

(Of course that's also when you start getting into Fist of the North Star/Dragon Ball/Baki the Grappler territory.)

[Grod_The_Giant]

AMFV: You're essentially arguing that the point is moot and the scenario is impossible because our world doesn't have RPG rules-abstractions, yes? That's what your point is, that the wizard becomes just a dude because everything about him is fictional?

If that's seriously the idea here, let me revise the scenario: a 3.5 wizard is transported to a different planet on the Material Plane whose history, technology, and culture is identical to ours. Use 3.5 rules whenever possible, and d20 Modern rules when not. The one exception is that no one on this planet has any sort of magic or supernatural abilities, nor do they have the skills or class features to do more than human deeds. (So, you know, mostly low level commoners, experts, and the like. Military forces might include fighters, rogues, spell-less rangers and such). There- now we can stop debating the terms of the question and actually look at answering it.

[AvatarVecna]

Just because he's allying himself with North Korea doesn't mean the wizard needs to reveal himself to anybody, including North Korea. If the wizard is being smart, he'll manipulate events in NK's favor without being detected, giving them the delusion that they took over the world all on their own. He sets up a base somewhere out-of-the-way and normally inhospitable...like the dark side of the moon, or the deep sea floor, or an active volcano...traditional lair locations, you know? Anyway, once he's used enough magic to make his new lair survive the environment while remaining undetectable, he uses various long-range divinations to familiarize himself with world leaders (both in politics and business); at this point, he combines "Superior Invisibility" with "Overland Flight" to render himself essentially undetectable, and then Teleports to wherever said world leaders are when they're sleeping, and casts "Extended Dominate Person" on them. Sure, he'll have to recast this once a month, but that shouldn't be too difficult.

Assuming this wizard has...let's be reasonable and say he's got a 24 Intelligence, he can cast Extended Dominate Person" 10 times a day without eating into his 8th/9th lvl slots, which is a good start; alternatively, he can cast 15 "Dominate Person" spells if he's willing to accept having to recast them twice a month or so. Returning to his lair, he starts casting "Sending" targeting said world leaders, giving them orders through magic, manipulating them into changing things up slightly enough to make it seem natural. Since nobody's really the wiser to his actions (except for his dominated puppets), he can remain undetected. If you want him to maintain more Dominated puppets, you can have them all gather in some location for official purposes, and he can use a Chained Dominate Person to get a bunch of them with a single 8th lvl spell, letting him use his lower level, single target Dominates for new targets.

[draxsiss]

Guns are not going to be a problem, if you take a look at protection from arrows it helps negate ALL ranged attacks, 10 DR is going to be enough to make most guns pointless (perticuarly if he is smart and gets himself a selfresetting magical trapped that is constantly poping off on himself) . As far as stealth goes, well Rope trick or Magnificent mansion can handle it. you will not find him asleep (assuming he does sleep, he may be a Necroplian....) Remember that 93% of the population is LEVEL 1, this means that most likely YOU me and everyone we know is level 1, Keep in mind that guns kiling us is likely because we only have a D4 MAYBE a D4+1 hp..... 2.5-3.5 HP. If he wants to clean out NK he just needs to cast afew cloud kills We be screwed, Unless he decided to be an academic and change the way we view things with that big likely 34 int of theirs. Can't wait till he learns about explosive materal and polymorph any object....

We are screwed.


Edit this is not even factoring in if the wizard has Knowledge Religion or Knowledge local, he might know about say Christianity, How do you think the Vadican would react to someone who pops in the center square with a literaly angle with them. Astral Deva would not be that hard... Other outsiders may look like religious icons. He could also just go ethereal and chill/wack people off with magic missles, Summon an incorporeal undead (shadow comes to mind SUmmon undead 5) and tell it to spawn some friends! (which are later controlled with control undead) Heck with just prestidigitation/Silent image/Ghost sound he could be one of the best stage magicians on the planet. Lots of choices at the end of the day its whatever the wizard wants.

[Segev]

Really, once he's got a few major world leaders under his thumb, and a few wealthy magnates doing his bidding, he has more than enough resources to create magic items which maintain his dominate person effects indefinitely. Moreover, he can have Simulacra who attend each of his world-leader minions, keeping them constantly charmed as well, so that they view his domination as something benevolent, keeping them from "making mistakes" or suchlike.

[AvatarVecna]

Really, once he's got a few major world leaders under his thumb, and a few wealthy magnates doing his bidding, he has more than enough resources to create magic items which maintain his dominate person effects indefinitely. Moreover, he can have Simulacra who attend each of his world-leader minions, keeping them constantly charmed as well, so that they view his domination as something benevolent, keeping them from "making mistakes" or suchlike.

You're right! I wasn't even considering tactics like resetting traps or simulacra assistants, but that makes things even easier. Silly me, thinking it was one itemless wizard vs the world...

EDIT: Hell, resetting traps opens up a lot of interesting options for a wizard that's fine making appearances too. Resetting traps of buff and/or healing spells could make our wizard quite well-received by the public.

[Xar Zarath]

...If that's seriously the idea here, let me revise the scenario: a 3.5 wizard is transported to a different planet on the Material Plane whose history, technology, and culture is identical to ours. Use 3.5 rules whenever possible, and d20 Modern rules when not. The one exception is that no one on this planet has any sort of magic or supernatural abilities, nor do they have the skills or class features to do more than human deeds. (So, you know, mostly low level commoners, experts, and the like. Military forces might include fighters, rogues, spell-less rangers and such). There- now we can stop debating the terms of the question and actually look at answering it.


@Xar Zarath:
I don't want to hijack your thread, but the conclusion for this scenario is pretty clear. How about something slightly different? Let's drop Xykon, as statted here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=18643432&postcount=3) in North Korea...

Both these scenarios are good. Why not put Xykon in a world similar to ours that works on d20 Modern rules. Consider all history/economies/tech is similar to us, a parallel Earth so to speak.

[AvatarVecna]

Both these scenarios are good. Why not put Xykon in a world similar to ours that works on d20 Modern rules. Consider all history/economies/tech is similar to us, a parallel Earth so to speak.

Xykon would be guaranteed to eventually destroy the world, but he's probably not going to take over; from his spell lists to his skills to his personality, taking control without destroying the infrastructure necessary to support our world's societies isn't really Xykon's thing. Again, he'd eventually destroy it; the dude's built for massive combat, and could destroy the world eventually; even if we managed to kill him (which we might be able to with big enough bombs), he's got his phylactery hidden away in his own world, and we aren't capable of inter-dimensional travel, so we'll never be able to really take him out...and if we manage to kill him once, you know he'll be back for more, because he's not gonna take that insult lying down.

[Aharon]

Xykon would be guaranteed to eventually destroy the world, but he's probably not going to take over; from his spell lists to his skills to his personality, taking control without destroying the infrastructure necessary to support our world's societies isn't really Xykon's thing. Again, he'd eventually destroy it; the dude's built for massive combat, and could destroy the world eventually; even if we managed to kill him (which we might be able to with big enough bombs), he's got his phylactery hidden away in his own world, and we aren't capable of inter-dimensional travel, so we'll never be able to really take him out...and if we manage to kill him once, you know he'll be back for more, because he's not gonna take that insult lying down.

Hm, he is however slightly interested in controlling things, though - it's his motivation for this whole quest after the gates, after all. So if he talks to the fictionverse NK leader after arrival, he might have a new Redcloak equivalent by his side.

As for tactics:
He could try a tactic similar to the one he is employing on his world. There, he wants to blackmail the gods by controlling the snarl. He doesn't have lots in the way of controlling stuff, but what he could do is spawn a limited wightopocalypse (say, on Japan or Australia or some other place) via Energy Drain, and then threaten to repeat in the rest of the world. Main problem is keeping the wights contained (seeing how they can walk away underwater!). Dropping nukes on it might work.

Other approach would be more direct - use his widescreen crystal ball to scry Obama, Putin and other world leaders, teleport to them, kill their security details and threaten them with death unless they obey. Kill those that don't obey, rinse and repeat until whole world leadership obeys, introduce desired changes to world. If he doesn't get his items (no crystal ball) things are harder, but not siginficantly so.

[AvatarVecna]

Hm, he is however slightly interested in controlling things, though - it's his motivation for this whole quest after the gates, after all. So if he talks to the fictionverse NK leader after arrival, he might have a new Redcloak equivalent by his side.

As for tactics:
He could try a tactic similar to the one he is employing on his world. There, he wants to blackmail the gods by controlling the snarl. He doesn't have lots in the way of controlling stuff, but what he could do is spawn a limited wightopocalypse (say, on Japan or Australia or some other place) via Energy Drain, and then threaten to repeat in the rest of the world. Main problem is keeping the wights contained (seeing how they can walk away underwater!). Dropping nukes on it might work.

Other approach would be more direct - use his widescreen crystal ball to scry Obama, Putin and other world leaders, teleport to them, kill their security details and threaten them with death unless they obey. Kill those that don't obey, rinse and repeat until whole world leadership obeys, introduce desired changes to world. If he doesn't get his items (no crystal ball) things are harder, but not siginficantly so.

Ignoring that our real-world doesn't have the equivalent of high-level clerics to serve as Redcloak stand-ins (unless the governments are hiding some serious theological **** from the public), Xykon's plan to blackmail the gods was 1) Redcloak's plan, 2) based on a ritual only Redcloak knows, and 3) is dependent on our RL world having both deities to threaten and a Snarl to threaten them with, neither of which is a guarantee in any way. Hell, Xykon's aspirations to control the world were born primarily from a desire to accomplish something with his life, as is discussed in Start of Darkness to a degree; he wasn't really involved with the motivation or creation of the plan personally, he just kinda latched on to Redcloak's plan. I won't deny that he's got a great deal of tactical skill, or a certain kind of cunning, but it's not the kind that lends itself well to subtle political manipulation.

That said, your suggested tactic of "murderhobo the world leaders that refuse to obey" would almost definitely work well regardless. That's the beauty of lichdom: as long as your phylactery is untouchable, you're virtually immortal (there's at least one way to get around this problem, but it's unlikely anybody in our world is a Paladin with a PrC).

[Aharon]

Ignoring that our real-world doesn't have the equivalent of high-level clerics to serve as Redcloak stand-ins (unless the governments are hiding some serious theological **** from the public), Xykon's plan to blackmail the gods was 1) Redcloak's plan, 2) based on a ritual only Redcloak knows, and 3) is dependent on our RL world having both deities to threaten and a Snarl to threaten them with, neither of which is a guarantee in any way. Hell, Xykon's aspirations to control the world were born primarily from a desire to accomplish something with his life, as is discussed in Start of Darkness to a degree; he wasn't really involved with the motivation or creation of the plan personally, he just kinda latched on to Redcloak's plan. I won't deny that he's got a great deal of tactical skill, or a certain kind of cunning, but it's not the kind that lends itself well to subtle political manipulation.

That said, your suggested tactic of "murderhobo the world leaders that refuse to obey" would almost definitely work well regardless. That's the beauty of lichdom: as long as your phylactery is untouchable, you're virtually immortal (there's at least one way to get around this problem, but it's unlikely anybody in our world is a Paladin with a PrC).

Sorry, I wasn't clear there. I didn't mean a Redcloak stand-in with regards to power, but planning - somebody who has some kind of plan Xykon can latch on to and has an overview of the world/make Xykon familiar with stuff like the internet.

Now, what changes would he want? Probably going public after murderhoboing a bit - he wants a legacy, not to rule from the shadows.
One of his main motivations is amusement, and he likes to kill for amusement - what would he actually do after successfully becoming a world ruler?

=> Most of the world (barring affected regions) would probably be not too opposed to him entering ongoing wars on whatever side he wants to and kill the other side, of both sides indiscriminately. When he wants to destroy peaceful regions, resistance might start to form. This would again take the form of murderhoboing. Say he demands New York is made a citywide contained zone where he can recreate the plot of Walking Dead with unwilling "actors", and Obama (or Obama's successor) refuses. What happens next?

[Xar Zarath]

...That's the beauty of lichdom: as long as your phylactery is untouchable, you're virtually immortal (there's at least one way to get around this problem, but it's unlikely anybody in our world is a Paladin with a PrC).

Just curious, what is that one way? Details please:smallredface:

[AMFV]

AMFV: You're essentially arguing that the point is moot and the scenario is impossible because our world doesn't have RPG rules-abstractions, yes? That's what your point is, that the wizard becomes just a dude because everything about him is fictional?

If that's seriously the idea here, let me revise the scenario: a 3.5 wizard is transported to a different planet on the Material Plane whose history, technology, and culture is identical to ours. Use 3.5 rules whenever possible, and d20 Modern rules when not. The one exception is that no one on this planet has any sort of magic or supernatural abilities, nor do they have the skills or class features to do more than human deeds. (So, you know, mostly low level commoners, experts, and the like. Military forces might include fighters, rogues, spell-less rangers and such). There- now we can stop debating the terms of the question and actually look at answering it.

That's not what I'm arguing at all. I'm arguing that the point is moot because the interactions between RPG rules and real life can be resolved an infinite amount of ways. I'm not arguing that the Wizard just "becomes a dude", as a matter of fact in most of my presented scenarios I've presented scenarios that work with your example, which is easier to investigate. But again once we start putting things into 3.5 terms, or into real world terms, granularity becomes a problem.

[ryu]

That's not what I'm arguing at all. I'm arguing that the point is moot because the interactions between RPG rules and real life can be resolved an infinite amount of ways. I'm not arguing that the Wizard just "becomes a dude", as a matter of fact in most of my presented scenarios I've presented scenarios that work with your example, which is easier to investigate. But again once we start putting things into 3.5 terms, or into real world terms, granularity becomes a problem.

That is much less of even an issue when the OP explicitly accepted a more specific scenario as what he was asking when it was presented. Amazing what happens when you actually want to answer someone's query for knowledge in the spirit it's made rather than declaring it moot for funsies eh?

[AMFV]

That is much less of even an issue when the OP explicitly accepted a more specific scenario as what he was asking when it was presented. Amazing what happens when you actually want to answer someone's query for knowledge in the spirit it's made rather than declaring it moot for funsies eh?

The OP's scenario doesn't work without investigating the interaction. If it's a wizard in the real world, then it works pretty much the way I outlined, if it's otherwise then it could work any number of ways. If somebody from a medieval world, with magic or without, is transported to the modern world, they die of disease, almost certainly, and the likelihood is increased when that person isn't the most hardy person to start with. If we are converting real world mechanics to fit into D&D, it all depends on the conversion, which was only addressed by Grod, and that does fix a lot of problems, although then you'd still have to convert a lot of modern tech that may or may not be converted (d20 Modern might help, but it's not as comprehensive as I'd like)

[ryu]

The OP's scenario doesn't work without investigating the interaction. If it's a wizard in the real world, then it works pretty much the way I outlined, if it's otherwise then it could work any number of ways. If somebody from a medieval world, with magic or without, is transported to the modern world, they die of disease, almost certainly, and the likelihood is increased when that person isn't the most hardy person to start with. If we are converting real world mechanics to fit into D&D, it all depends on the conversion, which was only addressed by Grod, and that does fix a lot of problems, although then you'd still have to convert a lot of modern tech that may or may not be converted (d20 Modern might help, but it's not as comprehensive as I'd like)

First off grod was just pointing out the simplest likely version of the scenario to fit the OPs desires. The general spirit behind it is pretty obviously what most of us were working with the whole time. The reason we were all so confident with that was that in response to the initial responses he imposed a minor limitation on wizard power with fairly clear delineation. A good communication skill I've learned is that even if someone's query is somewhat broad assuming the simplest possible intended meaning is most likely to be correct of all strategies.

[AMFV]

First off grod was just pointing out the simplest likely version of the scenario to fit the OPs desires. The general spirit behind it is pretty obviously what most of us were working with the whole time. The reason we were all so confident with that was that in response to the initial responses he imposed a minor limitation on wizard power with fairly clear delineation. A good communication skill I've learned is that even if someone's query is somewhat broad assuming the simplest possible intended meaning is most likely to be correct of all strategies.

The problem I would have is that there is no "simplest" meaning, there are dozens of answers depending on how you translate modern stuff into D&D or vice-versa. This would result in literally infinite scenarios, which is fine, but it does mean that: A.) There is no one right answer, and B.) Stating what assumptions you're starting with is critical.

Even just translating North Korea into D&D terms is problematic, because there aren't a lot of rules for how to handle much of the stuff that exists there, or in modern warfare, and spycraft.

[ryu]

The problem I would have is that there is no "simplest" meaning, there are dozens of answers depending on how you translate modern stuff into D&D or vice-versa. This would result in literally infinite scenarios, which is fine, but it does mean that: A.) There is no one right answer, and B.) Stating what assumptions you're starting with is critical.

Even just translating North Korea into D&D terms is problematic, because there aren't a lot of rules for how to handle much of the stuff that exists there, or in modern warfare, and spycraft.

Oh but there is a simplest answer. Namely the fact that one proposed side has much simpler and more abstract rules than the other and an entire supplementary system with a lot of the conversion already done. I don't think you'll find a single person on the entire internet that would claim converting the other way is easier, and I know exactly how bold that claim is.

[AMFV]

Oh but there is a simplest answer. Namely the fact that one proposed side has much simpler and more abstract rules than the other and an entire supplementary system with a lot of the conversion already done. I don't think you'll find a single person on the entire internet that would claim converting the other way is easier, and I know exactly how bold that claim is.

I've claimed they're both of equivalent difficulty. You would still have to state what official or unofficial conversion you were using, and the logic and reasoning behind it. Also each conversion has certain thought processes and rules that guide it, those need to be known because they will drastically affect the outcome of this thought exercise.

[AvatarVecna]

Just curious, what is that one way? Details please:smallredface:

IIRC, it's a PrC called Hunter Of The Dead, which has a class ability along the lines of "undead slain by the HotD cannt return to unlofe in any manner", or something like that.

EDIT: I've already stated the assumptions I'm making for thus question and why I'm making those particular assumptions. Since talking about it doesn't seem to be getting the point across, I'm just gonna ignore the ongoing debate on how simple/complex the question is to answer and just answer the question as best I can. Just doing my part to save the catgirls.

[Grod_The_Giant]

That's not what I'm arguing at all. I'm arguing that the point is moot because the interactions between RPG rules and real life can be resolved an infinite amount of ways. I'm not arguing that the Wizard just "becomes a dude", as a matter of fact in most of my presented scenarios I've presented scenarios that work with your example, which is easier to investigate. But again once we start putting things into 3.5 terms, or into real world terms, granularity becomes a problem.
You're selectively ignoring D&D rules when there's not a 1:1 conversion with real life-- that's not granularity, that's intentionally being obtuse. For example: you claim the wizard will almost instantly die of disease because "there's no rules for measles*," despite the fact that his +6 base Fortitude save makes him hardier than virtually anyone on the planet-- and we don't instantly die of disease even if we are exposed to something new. (Except for Ebola and other exceedingly rare things). (And he's probably walking around with a +5 cloak of resistance and

Fact: Even without magic, our 20th level wizard is impossibly hardy and dextrous (high HP, Fort, and Reflex). His fundamental skills function at literally superhuman levels (Up to +23 from ranks alone, BAB +10), and he is more intelligent than anyone in existence to date (Presumably he has at least an 18 Int in order to cast his spells, and it's almost certainly it's 20+ before magic enters into things). Without casting a single spell, he's flat-out superior to everyone on the planet.


*There are universal rules (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#disease), incidentally, though there's no listed DC. In which case you might as well argue that he's immune to the effect since there's no listed damage.

[icefractal]

I think the only way the Wizard loses is if he screws up and reveals his presence and powers too quickly. If he demonstrates how big a threat he is - and neglects to put up proper defenses in advance - he might get hit by something that strikes from beyond his perception range (missile strike, for instance) and kills him before he can react.

Similarly, if the Wizard starts by publicly announces he's supporting NK, it's possible that NK might be nuked in panic before he can set up defenses against that.

If the Wizard plays it at all carefully; for example, starting out by holing up and scrying around to learn what he needs about the world, then it's easy mode - he has dozens of ways to control the world's power structures, and there's little or no countermeasures against them.

[ryu]

I think the only way the Wizard loses is if he screws up and reveals his presence and powers too quickly. If he demonstrates how big a threat he is - and neglects to put up proper defenses in advance - he might get hit by something that strikes from beyond his perception range (missile strike, for instance) and kills him before he can react.

Similarly, if the Wizard starts by publicly announces he's supporting NK, it's possible that NK might be nuked in panic before he can set up defenses against that.

If the Wizard plays it at all carefully; for example, starting out by holing up and scrying around to learn what he needs about the world, then it's easy mode - he has dozens of ways to control the world's power structures, and there's little or no countermeasures against them.

Dude doesn't even need to scry. Do you have any idea how quickly he could learn about the world and all of its military tactics just by entering a library and reading a book every six seconds? Then going to the internet the next day? Information is not exactly a well guarded thing in our world. It's basically free for anyone with the gumption to claim.

[AvatarVecna]

Also, I feel the need to point out that it doesn't matter when the wizard announces his support of NK, but rather when we start taking him seriously. Let's be real: if NK held an international press conference tomorrow to announce their recently-gained wizard ally, they would not be taken seriously...at least not until a couple tactical meteors rained from the sky, or some bearded dude appears in the White House before turning the president into a roach or something.

[Strigon]

Of course, until I find a CR 10 real-life creature, I don't think you can level up beyond that by RAW, but even a few 9th level spells means unlimited power for a clever wizard.
There might not be CR 10 and up creatures in real life (Although I'm pretty sure an aircraft carrier would be an appropriate encounter for that level), but by the time the wizard runs out of natural ways to boost EXP, he'll be able to create creatures with CR-boosting templates and kill them, so I think he'd easily hit level 20.

[ryu]

There might not be CR 10 and up creatures in real life (Although I'm pretty sure an aircraft carrier would be an appropriate encounter for that level), but by the time the wizard runs out of natural ways to boost EXP, he'll be able to create creatures with CR-boosting templates and kill them, so I think he'd easily hit level 20.

Hilariously enough I already brought up the issues of tech based encounters and altered creatures. Pretty sure it was within a page of the post you just quoted.

[AvatarVecna]

Hilariously enough I already brought up the issues of tech based encounters and altered creatures. Pretty sure it was within a page of the post you just quoted.

And I responded to said post, acknowledging that it was a valid way to bypass lvl 17, too.

[ryu]

And I responded to said post, acknowledging that it was a valid way to bypass lvl 17, too.

The moral of the story is that if you're reading through a thread as short as this it really is wise to read to the end before responding. The alternative is to get wizarded. It's like swordsaged but with a timespan measured in hours or greater rather than seconds.

[AvatarVecna]

The moral of the story is that if you're reading through a thread as short as this it really is wise to read to the end before responding. The alternative is to get wizarded. It's like swordsaged but with a timespan measured in hours or greater rather than seconds.

And Pun-Pun'd is like getting ninja'd, except in a short thread that's been dormant so long that your post commits thread necromancy. :smallbiggrin:

[ryu]

And Pun-Pun'd is like getting ninja'd, except in a short thread that's been dormant so long that your post commits thread necromancy. :smallbiggrin:

Which didn't happen here today. Granted it was off the first page probably, but it had legitimate recent activity.

[AvatarVecna]

Which didn't happen here today. Granted it was off the first page probably, but it had legitimate recent activity.

I'm more extending the extension as a personal reminder for the next time I see thread necromancy. It didn't happen here, but I've no doubt that it will be relevant at some point.

Unlike me.

[ryu]

I'm more extending the extension as a personal reminder for the next time I see thread necromancy. It didn't happen here, but I've no doubt that it will be relevant at some point.

Unlike me.

Oh. Fair enough. I wonder if the new terms will catch on.