Harry Potter and th Deathly Hallows (Poss. Spoilers)

[ravenkith]

Sorry, I like Harry Potter.

The books have really been quite good, IMO.

As such, some speculations:

1. Snape is still on the OOTP's side. He is actively infiltrating the Deatheaters, despite all appearances to the contrary.

2. Dumbledore, as a side effct of having a Phoenix familiar, in addition to the potion he consumed, will return from the grave (probably on Harry's birthday).

3. Harry will have to die in order to end the threat of Voldemoort once and forever....

[Gaelbert]

I haven't really heard number two before, did he drink the potion in one of the books or is it assumed?

[Green Bean]

I haven't really heard number two before, did he drink the potion in one of the books or is it assumed?

Yeah, that's a new one to me. Do Harry Potter wizards even have familiars? I thought they were mainly pets. :smallconfused:

[Dausuul]

Sorry, I like Harry Potter.

The books have really been quite good, IMO.

As such, some speculations:

1. Snape is still on the OOTP's side. He is actively infiltrating the Deatheaters, despite all appearances to the contrary.

2. Dumbledore, as a side effct of having a Phoenix familiar, in addition to the potion he consumed, will return from the grave (probably on Harry's birthday).

3. Harry will have to die in order to end the threat of Voldemoort once and forever....

Rowling has said very specifically (http://www.hpana.com/news.19531.html) that Dumbledore is dead and is not going to "pull a Gandalf."

As for the other two, I agree with #1. For #3, I give Harry about fifty-fifty.

[Gaelbert]

But did she really define what exactly she meant by Gandalf? Is "pulling a Gandalf" coming back more powerful, or just coming back at all? And I believe she has changed her story on some things multiple times.

[DreadArchon]

The books have really been quite good, IMO.
Of course they have. (The ending of the most recent stank, though. What the hell was up with Harry and Ginny breaking up? That was completely pointless... what, Voldy won't go for Ron's family? And it's okay if Voldy kills Ron and Hermione? And why did Ginny put up with that blek? Plus, I liked the whole "Harry going out with Ginny" thing. :smallfurious: )


1. Snape is still on the OOTP's side. He is actively infiltrating the Deatheaters, despite all appearances to the contrary.
Agreed. "Just kill me. Then he'll believe you. You can still consult with me through my portrait in the office." Sounds like something Dumbledore would do, and having such a burden put on his shoulders would definitely justify Snape being in such a furiously bitter mood towards the end there.


2. Dumbledore, as a side effct of having a Phoenix familiar, in addition to the potion he consumed, will return from the grave (probably on Harry's birthday).
Eh, maybe. I think it'd be preferable if they just talk to his portrait and he stays dead.


3. Harry will have to die in order to end the threat of Voldemoort once and forever....
My favorite theory is that Harry died as a baby, and that Voldemort tried to make Harry into his last soul gem horcrux, but that Voldemort's soul chunk simply took over Harry's otherwise dead body (maybe abracadabra avada kedavra drives off souls but doesn't hurt bodies). Nobody (except possibly Dumbledore, though it'd be nice if something surprised him) knows this, and Voldemort has been fighting himself this whole time. Predictably, someone quips a "It's our choices that make us who we are" line when this is revealed.

[Gaelbert]

My favorite theory is that Harry died as a baby, and that Voldemort tried to make Harry into his last soul gem horcrux, but that Voldemort's soul chunk simply took over Harry's otherwise dead body (maybe abracadabra avada kedavra drives off souls but doesn't hurt bodies). Nobody (except possibly Dumbledore, though it'd be nice if something surprised him) knows this, and Voldemort has been fighting himself this whole time. Predictably, someone quips a "It's our choices that make us who we are" line when this is revealed.

So if Harry destroys all of the other horcruxes, and in the final battle Voldemort kills Harry, what would happen to Voldemort? He would have only a fraction of his soul remaining. Or will Harry kill Voldemort and all of the other horcruxes, and then have to commit suicide to keep Voldemort dead forever? I would like that. It would be a good twist.

[Don Beegles]

The potion is in the sixth book, when he is fighting the Inferni, I believe. At least, I know he drinks a potion then, and I believe that is what the OP is referring to, but I'm not sure why that would let him come back, and frankly I don't want him to. I think it would cheapen his sacrifice and really mean that JK was pulling her punches and spoiling what could have been a great story by making it easier to stomach.

I like the Harry Potter books as well, and I don't want to see that happen. They introduced me to the world of fantasy, and I loved them in elementary school and junior high. I've outgrown them in favor of things like SOIAF and Amber, but they're not bad at all, and they're nostalgiac for me. It's been good to see them grow a bit from little kids books to something more suited for young teens or so, and that would ruin it.

I do think there's a good chance that Snape is still good, though. I think there's no way to prove either way though, because there's been evidence to both sides, both prima facie for his evilness, and fairly subtle for his not.

I'm ambivalent about Harry dying. The story would work either way, and I think JK would write it the way she felt it worked best, but I know I'll never be able to shake the feeling that if he dies she did it to piss people off, and if not she just didn't have the guts. And I know people want a 'happy ending' too much to take that, so I'd be hearing it for months from all of my friends who read it if he died, which could suck.

[Green Bean]

Of course they have. (The ending of the most recent stank, though. What the hell was up with Harry and Ginny breaking up? That was completely pointless... what, Voldy won't go for Ron's family? And it's okay if Voldy kills Ron and Hermione? And why did Ginny put up with that blek? Plus, I liked the whole "Harry going out with Ginny" thing. :smallfurious: )


I have to admit, I got a bit of a Spiderman vibe (the comic, not the movie). I mean, if everyone knows you can get to Spiderman through Peter Parker, then secret identities protect your loved ones how? I mean, what's stopping Voldy from torturing some student to find out, "Oh yeah, Ginny and Harry were an item." The only difference is that if you stick together, you can protect one another. But hey, that's just me.

[WillWolf]

If she brings back Dumbledor in any way, I will throw the book across the room, that being said I doubt I will have to. With all do respect, Dumble is a wonderful character, but from a literarcy standpoint bringing back the character would loose all of the depth and importance on Harry's character to do so, thus it would spoil the book. I'm going to be polite "Dumbledor is dead, get used to it."

What I do expect to see is a flashback with Dumbledor in it and/or clues created by Dumbledor pre-death.

J.K. Rowling is a decent authour and a great storyteller, but, so help me, I will send an enormous amount of mail telling my dissapointment in her final book if she brings him back, because she should know better.

[Dausuul]

But did she really define what exactly she meant by Gandalf? Is "pulling a Gandalf" coming back more powerful, or just coming back at all? And I believe she has changed her story on some things multiple times.

I think you're trying to read way, way too much into two very simple statements.

1) Dumbledore is dead.
2) Dumbledore is not "pulling a Gandalf."

The clear implication is that Dumbledore is staying dead. You can draw all sorts of elaborate distinctions--maybe "pulling a Gandalf" just means that he won't come back wearing all white!--but that's pretty obviously not what she meant.

[Dr._Weird]

I have a theory myself, and it involves Harry being a horcrux and all. (Blindingly obvious but it's the only thing I can see coming.)

I really really hope Snape stays evil. It would just be so cliche and tired if Snape turns out to be good. I mean, it's been hinted at for every book so far, how awesome would it be if he turned out to be just what he seemed?

[Dragonrider]

I'm of two minds about the Snape thing. Last time I read the 6th book, it occurred to me that every time - EVERY SINGLE TIME - something happens, Harry suspects Malfoy and Snape, and it is NEVER them. Except in this book. Which actually was a twist of genius on Rowling's part.

You ready for my Snape theory?

When you read the chapter (of #6) where he takes the unbreakable vow, read it assuming he's working for Dumbledore. It then looks like he does NOT know what Malfoy's assignment is, and is trying to get Bellatrix and Narcissa to tell him. When Bellatrix makes the last condition--to do it for Draco if he can't--Snape hesitates for a moment. Because he doesn't yet know what he's supposed to do--he never actually SAYS, does he, and assuming it's not just a plot device to keep you in suspense....it seems like he really doesn't know Draco's mission. At any rate, this is my interpretation.

The argument with Dumbledore could very well be, he's sick of playing double agent, doesn't want to be working for Voldemort anymore. There must be SOMETHING he has done to make Dumbledore trust him, something beyond what Dumbledore has said he did.

Dumbledore knew all along, of course, that Draco was supposed to kill him. And I think part of that argument was that he wanted Snape to go ahead and keep "helping" him. Dumbledore throughout the sixth book is essentially preparing Harry to go one without him, and I think that he knows he is going to die.

In the moment when Snape kills Dumbledore, he has a look of hatred on his face. He doesn't want to do this. But he doesn't have a choice--he made the vow, and so he can't not. When Dumbledore is pleading, he's not asking Snape not to do it, he's saying You have to do this. Because for Dumbledore, death isn't a bad thing ("To the well-organized mind...") and he can still help them from his portrait.....and he needs Snape still in Voldemort's organization to continue with sabotage and everything. And yes, it explains why he is so venomous at the end.

The cool thing about him (if he is good) is that he's a genuinely un-likeable person who is working for the "good guys". He demonstrates that you can be truly nasty and still not evil, and that's really cool. He's a good teacher (when he wants to be) and a horrible person. He's incredibly talented. But he's just plain DESPICABLE. And I like that a lot.

The other little theory I have is that Kreacher has the Horcrux (the locket). Why? Because in #5, They find a heavy silver locket that they're unable to open. They throw it out but what with Kreacher's raids on the trash bins, I bet you anything he pulled it out and that's where it is. It would be in the Black house because it's highly possible that R.A.B. could stand for "Regulus A. Black", Sirius's brother. Our only description of Regulus was that he was sniveling and weak, but this is from Sirius, who was pretty biased in that direction.

(incidentally, I think that Rowling had to kill Sirius Black because he was no longer influencing Harry well. She wrote herself into a corner.)

Dumbledore died because he was too powerful. I think it's simply that - he was powerful enough to bail Harry out, and we could not have that happening. I think that he is dead because what would be the point of killing him off if you were going to resurrect him? Shock value? I would hope that Rowling has more integrity than that.

As for Harry's death...I don't want to know until I read it. Either way it will be a surprise.

And as a side note, I honestly don't think that he can keep Ginny from coming with him and Hermione. That was a bit of a hole but I think she only agreed because she knows that arguing with him won't change his mind (Harry's too stubborn for that) and she can always sneak after them anyway.

It's all a shot in the dark, and I could be COMPLETELY off target. I hope that some of it IS wrong, because I want to be surprised. But it's fun to speculate.

[Human Paragon 3]

Interesting fact:

Avada Kadavra is obviously meant to sound like Abracadabra. The interesting part? The 17th century mystic/scholar who is credited with popularizing the magic word Abracadabra: Quintis Severus.

Interesting fact 2:

Abracadabra is supposedly the name of a demon that was converted into a ward, and was usually configured in a diminishing triangle like this:

.ABRACADABRA
..BRACADABRA
...RACADABRA
....ACADABRA
.....CADABRA
......ADABRA
.......DABRA
........ABRA
.........BRA
..........RA
...........A

to symbolize evil spirits diminishing to nothing.

[Gaelbert]

I think you're trying to read way, way too much into two very simple statements.

1) Dumbledore is dead.
2) Dumbledore is not "pulling a Gandalf."

The clear implication is that Dumbledore is staying dead. You can draw all sorts of elaborate distinctions--maybe "pulling a Gandalf" just means that he won't come back wearing all white!--but that's pretty obviously not what she meant.

Yeah, I personally don't want him to come back, I never cried when he died, and sometimes before he died I wish he was dead. I was probably just overthinking it.

[ravenkith]

About Dumbledore 'coming back':

I guess I just like the old fart.

One question:

In Harry Potter's world, how are ghosts made?

:smallbiggrin:

[Thinweazel]

HAHAHH Dragonrider its like you took the post right directly out of my head. In summation those are my thoughts to a T.

And to Ravenkith, Rowling has said we are going to learn in the next book exactly how ghosts are made and why they are here.






Proud member of the Severus Snape fanclub :P

[ravenkith]

I suspect that the individual who is to become a ghost must die a horrible death (Nearly Headless Nick, Moaning Myrtle) in or near a place of great power (Hogwarts), while feeling a strong emotion or feeling of some kind, which colors their afterlife (Irritation, Sadness).

May I point out that Dumbledore was killed in a most horrible manner (Avada Kadabra), in a place of power (Hogwarts), with a strong emotion...(mercy/pity?)

Which is why he says 'it is my mercy that should concern you', or something to that effect, on top of the tower, to Malfoy....

and why "death is nothing to be feared to a prepared mind".

He's setting himself up to be a perpetual spirit of caring at Hogwarts.

(Maybe).

Enh, I think it'd be cool.

[Connor Darkdart]

or maybe dumbledore is going to be like the fat lady. but then again, that seems an unlikely choice of a hogwarts headmaster...

[happyturtle]

I've got two copies on pre-order at WHSmith's, so I won't have to fight with Mr Me over it. But I'm not going at midnight. That's just silly. (8am is early enough! :smallbiggrin: )

I really can't believe that Dumbledore would make a plan that would include turning someone that he respected and valued into a murderer. That would be basically telling Snape that he considered his soul expendable, and is not the act of a good man. I prefer to believe that Dumbledore was simply wrong in trusting Snape.

My theory about Snape:

Snape was in love with Lily Potter. That's what he confessed to Dumbledore that made Dumbledore believe that he had genuinely turned against Voldemort. He was struck with grief and remorse that he had been the reason that Voldemort targeted the Potters because he loved Lily.

This grief and remorse was genuine, but only for Lily. Voldemort was going to spare Lily, and gave her a chance to escape. I think Snape conditioned with him that he would give him information about the prophecy, but only if he promised to spare Lily. For whatever reason, Voldemort was inclined to keep the promise at first, but she was in the way, and rather than just incapacitate her, as he easily could have, Voldemort killed her. So Snape turned against Voldemort, became a double agent, and convinced Dumbledore that he had turned away from darkness.

But he hasn't. He wants to destroy Voldemort, but only so he can take over the Death Eaters and become the new dark lord. He's not a double agent. He's a free agent. Snape is working for nobody but Snape.

[Don Beegles]

Actually, Raven, it hadn't occured to me that he might be a ghost, but it makes a lot of sense, and I think I'd kind of like that. It would be unexpected and not as bad as bringing him back, but less cheesy than just having his portrait give advice.

[TheElfLord]

At the end of book 5 Nearly Headless Nick talks to Harry about becoming a ghost. It requires a massive fear of death and an unwillingness to let go and travel beyond. A person has to be perpared to live a shadow existance in our world instead of going on to the next step.

[Dragor]

My theory about Snape:

*Spoiler, Spoiler, Etc*

I like that theory- and it'd be great if it made it into the book.