Crossbow and Firearm Research

[Shekinah]

I have a friend who is researching 16th century firearms and determining how realistic and balanced it is for his campaign. Specifically, reload rates.

Guns have higher damage, but less range than crossbows. But RAW there's literally no class that would want to use a gun over a longbow, let alone a crossbow. So, we're comparing a bunch of videos to see how fast a gun can be reloaded compared to a crossbow.

Problem is we don't know if a "heavy crossbow" in D&D terms is supposed to be a windlass or rack and pinion or what.

So, 5e people, is it fair to have guns reload faster than crossbows? I know that crossbows get a feat that removes the reload. What he's thinking is taking the reload property with firearms and crossbows, and using the bonus action to fire twice in one round if he has two attacks. Firearms have superior damage and inferior range to crossbows, but they don't have access to crossbow mastery. So, does it seem fair to have firearms fired for a maximum of twice per round?

[Tanarii]

There's no real point in applying real world rate of fire for projectile or thrown weapons to D&D. The combat round is too short to allow them to be balanced if you try.

Besides, you start running into the Guy at the Gym Fallacy with Martial characters pretty quick as soon as you get any significant levels under your belt.

[Kane0]

Problem is we don't know if a "heavy crossbow" in D&D terms is supposed to be a windlass or rack and pinion or what.

My favourite way of splitting them is the LindyBeige method: Light crossbows can be used purely by hand (though can still have mechanical aid if you like), heavy crossbows require mechanical aid.



So, 5e people, is it fair to have guns reload faster than crossbows? I know that crossbows get a feat that removes the reload. What he's thinking is taking the reload property with firearms and crossbows, and using the bonus action to fire twice in one round if he has two attacks. Firearms have superior damage and inferior range to crossbows, but they don't have access to crossbow mastery. So, does it seem fair to have firearms fired for a maximum of twice per round?
I'd say just allow crossbow mastery to apply its ignore-reload-quality to firearms also, but not the bonus action attack. The higher damage for lower range should be a good enough trade-off, though you might also require more maintenance or the chance of misfire like PF does (though I personally wouldn't).

[JoeJ]

If you don't want mess with the mechanical effects of the weapons, you can make firearms more popular simply by dropping the prices and/or raising the prices of crossbows, and making the pistol a simple weapon instead of a martial one.

[Douche]

The only feasible use of a musket I can imagine is, like, how in Pirates of the Caribbean they'll use one shot of their musket/handgun thing and then not even bother reloading it, just holstering it and continuing to fight with their sword.

Makes sense for a swashbuckler type dude, if you ask me. Have a small but significant ranged attack, once per combat... Better than a 1/day spell or something that refreshes on short rest? But then, what's stopping everyone else from getting themselves a musket too? Maybe make it a class feature.

[D.U.P.A.]

Where people shoot firebolt out of nothing from their hands at will, I see no problem if guns are reloaded in one turn. As what stands for loading properties, let him grab double barelled guns to have two attacks in one round.

[ruy343]

Well, the DM's guide covers rules for Renaissance firearms and assigns pretty good damage values for that, giving them the loading property (which could hypothetically be exploited by Crossbow Expert).

However, if you want some more realism with your gaming, you could try the following:

Back in 2nd Edition, the players handbook included rules for an arquebus (a primitive musket) that you could fire for high damage (I forget the amount) and spend 2-3 turns reloading it. After all, oldschool muskets took up to 20 seconds to reload (10 if you were skilled), so this is reasonable.

The way I would handle primitive firearms is to create a new loading keyword called "Loading (Gunpowder)" (so that crossbow expert feat doesn't apply) meaning that it took 2 actions to re-load, use higher damage values (2d6 for pistol, 2d10 for rifle), and then create a new feat for Renaissance firearms (since it would require an entirely different skillset):

Firearm Master
+1 DEX
Weapons with the "Loading (Gunpowder)" keyword only require one action to reload
You may double the range of your firearm for the attack.

I added the +1 DEX because it felt weak otherwise. I like how this feels balance-wise. In essence, you can take one shot every 3 turns (every other turn with the feat) that deals high damage, instead of taking two shots on your turn. Fighters and other multi-attack characters wouldn't make it a high priority because they could only get off one shot per turn (though it could be among longsword attacks, I suppose), but rogues and others might find it worthwhile.

Also, to that character that carries around 18 pistols strapped to every possible appendage: remember that you only get one item interaction per turn to draw/stow weapons (though tossing them aside is free), so you'll only get two shots/round max with pre-loaded pistols if I'm DMing. And watch out for pickpockets.

Thoughts?

[deathbymanga]

My favourite way of splitting them is the LindyBeige method: Light crossbows can be used purely by hand (though can still have mechanical aid if you like), heavy crossbows require mechanical aid.


I'd say just allow crossbow mastery to apply its ignore-reload-quality to firearms also, but not the bonus action attack. The higher damage for lower range should be a good enough trade-off, though you might also require more maintenance or the chance of misfire like PF does (though I personally wouldn't).

back in 3.5, Arms and Equipment created a Grand(Great?) Crossbow, which uses a Winch. Which makes me assume neither Heavy nor Light Crossbows use Winches

[D.U.P.A.]

No one will want spend the whole turn just reloading, it is very boring just to wait there doing nothing after you had to wait considerable time to finally get your turn. 2d10 damage is not a big deal, such amount can deal Firebolt with 5th level character. Then you miss and you spent 3 turns doing absolutely nothing.

[eastmabl]

I have a friend who is researching 16th century firearms and determining how realistic and balanced it is for his campaign. Specifically, reload rates.

Guns have higher damage, but less range than crossbows. But RAW there's literally no class that would want to use a gun over a longbow, let alone a crossbow. So, we're comparing a bunch of videos to see how fast a gun can be reloaded compared to a crossbow.

Problem is we don't know if a "heavy crossbow" in D&D terms is supposed to be a windlass or rack and pinion or what.

So, 5e people, is it fair to have guns reload faster than crossbows? I know that crossbows get a feat that removes the reload. What he's thinking is taking the reload property with firearms and crossbows, and using the bonus action to fire twice in one round if he has two attacks. Firearms have superior damage and inferior range to crossbows, but they don't have access to crossbow mastery. So, does it seem fair to have firearms fired for a maximum of twice per round?

In my elf games, I prefer to favor fun over realism. Therefore, this is what I would do:

1.) Make a pistol, rifle and heavy rifle that are an uncommon magic weapons. This takes them out of the hands of the common folk.

2.) For stats, reskin the hand, light and heavy crossbows, and add a quality "LOUD" (it should be somewhat self-explanatory). Note in the description that the crossbow expert feat specifically doesn't apply to these weapons.

3.) Allow for the research of further magic items in the rare, very rare and legendary tiers that allow for use of the crossbow expert feat (lever action breechloader), remove the loud property (silencer) or even allow for a spray of shots (gatling gun, submachine gun).

This way, your player gets to play a pretty balanced version of a weapon, and you don't have to worry about whether it's suboptimal. It's magic now.