Rage and Spell-Like Abilities

[Iguanodon]

While raging, a barbarian can't cast or concentrate on spells. Some spells exist in a gray area though, as to whether or not they are "cast" at all, since they're not cast from spell lists. Would rage prevent "casting" any of the following:


Racial spell-like abilities (for example, from the Drow Magic trait)
At-will spells granted by warlock Invocations, such as Mage Armor or False Life (I don't know why you would ever multiclass to warlock but it's technically possible, right?)
Spells from Shadow or 4 Elements monk that cost ki points (Fireball, Thunderwave)
Spell-like abilities from 4 Elements monk (Fangs of the Fire Snake, Water Whip, etc.)
Spell-like abilities granted by magic items
Channel Divinity

I think the 4-Elements monk is the biggest question here, since it doesn't make sense to treat some of its abilities differently just because they're also available to spellcasting classes. Thoughts?

[CantigThimble]

If you cast a spell that requires concentration, regardless of the source, you need to concentrate on it. Unless there's some specific exception that says it doesn't require concentration, then it does. Drow casting doesn't say that the darkness doesn't require concentration, so you can't cast a wizard concentration spell at the same time and you can't rage and keep it active either.

[Ruslan]

There's no such thing as "spell-like abilities" in 5E. With the specific example of the Drow, the racial ability says:


When you reach 3rd level, you can cast the faerie fire
spell once per day. When you reach 5th level, you can
also cast the darkness spell once per day.
So you are still casting the spells. And rage would prevent you from doing so.

Warlock Invocations? Same. They are worded "You can cast <such and such> spell....".

Monk spells? Same. If it says "cast", it can't be done in rage. Shadow Step, and Cloak of Shadows, however, can be used, since it's not a spell and doesn't use the word "cast".

Magic item abilities? Read the specific description when in doubt. If they grant you the ability to "cast" a spell, then no.

Channel Divinity? Ah, here's one thing that's not like the others. Channel Divinity is not a spell. You are not "casting" anything. So this one can be used while raging.

[Socratov]

While raging, a barbarian can't cast or concentrate on spells. Some spells exist in a gray area though, as to whether or not they are "cast" at all, since they're not cast from spell lists. Would rage prevent "casting" any of the following:


Racial spell-like abilities (for example, from the Drow Magic trait)
At-will spells granted by warlock Invocations, such as Mage Armor or False Life (I don't know why you would ever multiclass to warlock but it's technically possible, right?)
Spells from Shadow or 4 Elements monk that cost ki points (Fireball, Thunderwave)
Spell-like abilities from 4 Elements monk (Fangs of the Fire Snake, Water Whip, etc.)
Spell-like abilities granted by magic items
Channel Divinity

I think the 4-Elements monk is the biggest question here, since it doesn't make sense to treat some of its abilities differently just because they're also available to spellcasting classes. Thoughts?

I'd rule that unless those spell-like abilities could be used while unconscious, no they cannot be used while raging. But that's my interpretation. I see rage as that mindset when a pink mist descends into the vision and you turn into a whirlwind/cyclone/tornado/hurricane of steel and muscle. I wouldn't say you're occupied, but I'd say your mind has gone past the stratosphere on a holiday to admire the Moon, or Mars for that matter and be chilling with Rover while you are busy making chili of some people who thought it was a good idea to push the button.

[Iguanodon]

Alright, so it makes sense that any concentration effects are out. I guess the real question is whether these effects are actually "spells" or not. It seems to me like monk "spells" are not spells at all, but actually just magical abilities that monks have, since a lot of them of them aren't in the spell list in the PHB and the rules seem to treat them all similarly.

So, the other way to look at this issue is: Would rage prevent all uses of magic, or just spellcasting in particular? Sorry for using the term "spell-like;" it's not really clear enough.

[Foxhound438]

Racial spell-like abilities (for example, from the Drow Magic trait)

these are spells, and are cast, and in some cases require concentration. even though they don't use slots, they still are spells


At-will spells granted by warlock Invocations, such as Mage Armor or False Life (I don't know why you would ever multiclass to warlock but it's technically possible, right?)

same as above, although false life doesn't require concentration.


Spells from Shadow or 4 Elements monk that cost ki points (Fireball, Thunderwave)

same again


Spell-like abilities from 4 Elements monk (Fangs of the Fire Snake, Water Whip, etc.)

these aren't spells; other 4 elem stuff says "you cast x", but these don't, so they're fair game.


Spell-like abilities granted by magic items

depends, if it says "you can cast x by doing y" no, but otherwise (ie winged boots) you're fine.

[Foxhound438]

So, the other way to look at this issue is: Would rage prevent all uses of magic, or just spellcasting in particular? Sorry for using the term "spell-like;" it's not really clear enough.

if i'm interpreting this right, the answer would be yes. the only thing that rage prevents is "casting/concentrating on spells", so if you happened to also have the paladin's lay on hands, you could use that. if you have EK's sword summon, that's fair game. if you have druid wild shape, you can use that too (and stack them, correct me if i'm wrong). a bard's inspiration, channels, ki powers that aren't spells (i think even sun monk's beam isn't casting a spell since it's used from the attack action), divine smite (costs a slot but isn't cast)... the list goes on, the only thing rage stops is casting spells.

[ryan92084]

The only thing I can think of that might be along the lines of your thinking is paladin divine smite and any of the non concentration channel divinities. I very much want to make a paladin that froths at the mouth with righteous vengeance glowing in their crazed eyes.

[SpawnOfMorbo]

Barbarian/Cleric is one of my favorite barbarian multiclass combos.

Cast *Spiritual Weapon* as a bonus action.

Next round (or the same round, forget if rage is a BA or not) go into rage and use your bonus action to control the spell. There is no more casting and no concentration.

As a DM I did require the spiritual weapon attack the same target as the barbarian though.

Shady, yes, but totally absolutely totally cool and awesome.

That makes it a win in my book.

[Ruslan]

Alright, so it makes sense that any concentration effects are out. I guess the real question is whether these effects are actually "spells" or not. It seems to me like monk "spells" are not spells at all, but actually just magical abilities that monks have, since a lot of them of them aren't in the spell list in the PHB and the rules seem to treat them all similarly.

So, the other way to look at this issue is: Would rage prevent all uses of magic, or just spellcasting in particular? Sorry for using the term "spell-like;" it's not really clear enough.
The key is to look for the word cast.

If the ability allows you to "cast" something, then you're casting a spell.

If an ability allows you to "teleport 60 feet" or "shoot a bolt of lightning dealing 3d6 damage", but doesn't specifically use the word "cast" followed by a spell name, then you're not casting a spell, and can use this ability in rage.

[gullveig]

(...) a bard's inspiration (...)

Now I imagined a bardbarian shouting at its friend "Move your lazy ass, your piece of sh*t! You'd better pick this f**king doors or I will batter them with your useless head!"

[Socratov]

Now I imagined a bardbarian shouting at its friend "Move your lazy ass, your piece of sh*t! You'd better pick this f**king doors or I will batter them with your useless head!"

Well, I don't know about you, but I'd feel especially motivated

[Natasha]

Dragonborn breath and Channel Divinity are the only things that I really allow with it. Elemental monks still are effectively casting a spell. Racial spells are called spells for a reason. Invocations say they're casting spells. And so on.

[SwordChuck]

Dragonborn breath and Channel Divinity are the only things that I really allow with it. Elemental monks still are effectively casting a spell. Racial spells are called spells for a reason. Invocations say they're casting spells. And so on.

There are so many things in he game that aren't casting/concentrating that you are missing... Why would dragonbreath and channel divinity get a pass and not the others?

Shadow Jumping Raging Barbarian just sounds flipping cool.

[CantigThimble]

There are so many things in he game that aren't casting/concentrating that you are missing... Why would dragonbreath and channel divinity get a pass and not the others?

Shadow Jumping Raging Barbarian just sounds flipping cool.

I think he's saying he allows things that don't use the word 'cast' but are still very similar to spells. That's what I'd do at least. Which is a little weird in the case of level 6 knowledge domain channel divinity as the read thoughts is not 'cast' but the suggestion is. However I think the relatively small number of knowledge cleric/barbarians makes that moot.

[SpawnOfMorbo]

I think he's saying he allows things that don't use the word 'cast' but are still very similar to spells. That's what I'd do at least. Which is a little weird in the case of level 6 knowledge domain channel divinity as the read thoughts is not 'cast' but the suggestion is. However I think the relatively small number of knowledge cleric/barbarians makes that moot.

Knowledge Cleric/Barbrian is the best for the Gnomebarian builds :D

[Dimers]

... while you are busy making chili of some people who thought it was a good idea to push the button.

I laughed so hard at that description! :smallbiggrin:


However I think the relatively small number of knowledge cleric/barbarians makes that moot.

I dunno, there seem to be lots of people on the Internet who adore knowledge and will drop into a seething fit quite readily ...

[E’Tallitnics]

Knowledge Cleric/Barbrian is the best for the Gnomebarian builds :D

So…a Tomebarian!?

[Iguanodon]

Okay, seems like the general feeling is: if it says "cast," that means a spell is cast and that's impossible while raging. That seems like that's probably how it would work by RAW.

Maybe this is getting out of RAW territory, but it really rubs me the wrong way that some of the Elemental Monk abilities would be blocked by rage and some wouldn't be. It's obvious that the designers intended the monk abilities to not be spells, but some other sort of magical power (otherwise, there would be a spell list, etc.). I think some are listed as "casting" a spell that already exists in the spell directory just for simplicity/readability reasons; there's no conceivable reason that Elemental or Shadow Monks would have different mechanisms to cast these abilities in-world.

So, what I'm saying is: where should the threshold be? If you had to either allow or disallow ALL of the Monk "spells" in rage, which would make more sense? That is, instead of selectively disallowing only the ones using the word "cast?"

[ryan92084]

I wouldn't be so quick to assume the designer's intent is that the monk abilities required to be cast aren't meant to be spells. Having those abilities makes them spellcasters for attunement, crafting and other? purposes. It's the same for certain racials.

The method of learning and delivery may differ from your standard finger waggler but they are still tapping into magic and that requires a certain amount of focus that a raging barbarian doesn't (rulewise) possess.

[Addaran]

Okay, seems like the general feeling is: if it says "cast," that means a spell is cast and that's impossible while raging. That seems like that's probably how it would work by RAW.

Maybe this is getting out of RAW territory, but it really rubs me the wrong way that some of the Elemental Monk abilities would be blocked by rage and some wouldn't be. It's obvious that the designers intended the monk abilities to not be spells, but some other sort of magical power (otherwise, there would be a spell list, etc.). I think some are listed as "casting" a spell that already exists in the spell directory just for simplicity/readability reasons; there's no conceivable reason that Elemental or Shadow Monks would have different mechanisms to cast these abilities in-world.

So, what I'm saying is: where should the threshold be? If you had to either allow or disallow ALL of the Monk "spells" in rage, which would make more sense? That is, instead of selectively disallowing only the ones using the word "cast?"

I'm with you on that one. Seems to me that they only used that way of formulating for simplicity. I'd rule that all of them are useable while raging, except the concentration ones. Not like Elemental Monks are OP anyway. =P

[Socratov]

I laughed so hard at that description! :smallbiggrin:

You're welcome, and yes, that is how I see rage. Even experienced it form time to time.


I dunno, there seem to be lots of people on the Internet who adore knowledge and will drop into a seething fit quite readily ...

There should be a feat that allows the barbarian to rage during social encounters and get advantage on social checks as well as the rage's damage bonus on persuasion and intimidation checks... Should be fun. The feat will be called Godwin's Way.