What if Sauron had Won?

[McNum]

Warning, this might be a bit of a silly thread, but I had a strange thought today.

So, in Lord of the Rings, Sauron wants to have his One Ring returned to him. Even though he was winning the war without it, he still wanted it back. Partly because of that whole glaring weakpoint thing that we saw exploited in the story, but also because it holds a lot of his power and essence, and he wants back what is his. Which is all well and good, except... let's say he got it. A Ringwraith flies in with the Ring and dumps it in front of Sauron. Now what? Book Sauron is depicted as a shadow, and movie Sauron is a giant eye.

How does he wear the Ring?

I'm fairly sure that with all the supplemental material for Middle Earth, someone has figured that out, but I don't know all of that by heart, so... Anyone know?

[factotum]

Book Sauron is only a shadow after the Ring is destroyed, because he is no longer able to maintain his physical form. Up until that point he has a body and could put a Ring on, no problem. Even ignoring that, it's not unreasonable to suppose that Sauron could use the Ring so long as he was close enough to it--the Ring itself is shown to be able to affect people (Smeagol/Gollum, Boromir) who aren't actually wearing it or even touching it (they only have to be able to see it), so why couldn't its master do likewise?

[McNum]

Ah, he did have a physical body? Well that does help a lot.

And even if he couldn't wear it, I suppose "locked away in a heavily guarded vault in my own fortress until I figure out how to reclaim it" is far preferable than "unknown location, possibly with halfling" from Sauron's point of view.

It was just one of those half-awake waking up questions that randomly popped into my head. "Wait... if Sauron didn't have hands, what did he want to do with the ring?"

Although drawing the Eye of Sauron looking down on the Ring with an annoyed expression going "...okay, now what?" would be funny.

[The Glyphstone]

Admittedly, the giant disembodied eye is also Peter Jackson taking some visual liberties with the text. When Gollum was captured and taken to Mordor to be interrogated by Sauron, he describes how 'the Black Hand has only four fingers, but it is enough'.

[Cikomyr]

Just throw the ring into the Eye. Physical contact between Sauron and his Ring, that's all that mattered.

With it, Sauron had the power to regrow whatever body he felt like having. And then, its endgame. First Gondor, then Middle-Earth!

[An Enemy Spy]

Why did cutting the Ring off his finger damage him so much in the first place? Why wasn't he just like "Isildur, you seem to have cut my finger off. Allow me to kill you so I can put it back on a different finger."
Does he need to be in constant physical contact with it at all times?

[Talakeal]

Sauron in the movie isn't just an eye. In the Hobbit we see him in spiritual form, and in the extended edition of RoTK we see him holding the Palantyr while confronting Aragorn (although this could just be an illusion I suppose). They even originally filmed a confrontation between Sauron and Aragorn in front of the black gate before deciding it was too different from the book.

[Mando Knight]

Why did cutting the Ring off his finger damage him so much in the first place? Why wasn't he just like "Isildur, you seem to have cut my finger off. Allow me to kill you so I can put it back on a different finger."
Does he need to be in constant physical contact with it at all times?

Sauron had poured a significant amount of his power into forging his Ring, so that the One could control the 19 others. In return, Isildur cutting off Sauron's ring-finger wasn't like chopping off a finger, but more aptly analogous to lopping off an arm or a leg, a truly crippling wound that takes its victim out of the fight even if he survives it.

[Gnoman]

Why did cutting the Ring off his finger damage him so much in the first place? Why wasn't he just like "Isildur, you seem to have cut my finger off. Allow me to kill you so I can put it back on a different finger."
Does he need to be in constant physical contact with it at all times?

The whole "Sauron is winning handily until Isildur cuts the Ring off with a desperate strike" is movie-only. All we get in the books is that Gil-Galad, Elendil, and Isildur battled Sauron, only Isildur survived the battle, and he took the Ring as a prize.

Even from the movie version, it isn't that much of a stretch from "cutting the ring off" to "taking possession of the Ring", which we know deprives the former owner of much of the effect.

[Traab]

Didnt sauron create a new body for himself when he took up the title of the necromancer way back in the hobbit? Its been so LONG since I read the books, i honestly cant recall. Here is what I want to know. The one ring is what controls the other rings, and those who wear them. So why did the nazgul hang out with sauron even when he no longer had the one ring to command them? Had they been under his command so long that he no longer needed it to command them? Why didnt the witch king just flip sauron the bird and lead his posse of ringwraiths off to go do whatever they wanted?

[Misery Esquire]

Didnt sauron create a new body for himself when he took up the title of the necromancer way back in the hobbit? Its been so LONG since I read the books, i honestly cant recall. Here is what I want to know. The one ring is what controls the other rings, and those who wear them. So why did the nazgul hang out with sauron even when he no longer had the one ring to command them? Had they been under his command so long that he no longer needed it to command them? Why didnt the witch king just flip sauron the bird and lead his posse of ringwraiths off to go do whatever they wanted?

I think it followed the morgul blade plan in which once you become a wraith you are beholden to those who turned you. So, instead of wandering around stabbing the Kings of Men, he just sent them letter bombs. ...Er, proposal-for-eternal-power definitely-not-a-trap Rings. They put them on for a while, faded to wraiths, and then were Sauron's to command whether or not they kept the Rings they had when properly alive.

That's my understanding, anyway.

[factotum]

Even without the Ring Sauron was considerably more powerful than the Ringwraiths, who, when all's said and done, are just mortal men whose lifespan has been extended considerably by their rings--take away their armour and steeds and you're left with little more than a more twisted Gollum. Plus, where would they go? They're not exactly popular guys in the world outside Mordor, especially after Angmar and the shenanigans it got up to.

[lurkmeister]

Huh, that's an interesting point that I hadn't thought of before, that -- since Sauron's ability to control the other rings flowed through the One Ring -- without it, he had no means of directly controlling the Nazgûl.

It may or may not be a minor plot hole. Certainly the Elves seem to have had no problem wielding their Rings during the Third Age, after the One Ring was lost.

But then the Nine Rings of Men were given to kings who were already predisposed to following Sauron. He probably didn't have to put too much power into them: the Nazgûl were already loyal followers.

Besides, since the Rings were all that were keeping them alive, in their minds it was either Sauron or death. And how much d'you wanna bet that the promise he seduced them with was that of immortality? Of course, they could have forsaken him at any time during the Third Age, as he lacked the mechanism to control their Rings with (i.e. the One Ring) -- they just didn't. At that point, serving Sauron was all they really knew.

[Yora]

The whole idea of Evil in Lord of the Rings revolves around Sauron manipulating people to be consumed by their ambition and greed. Simple magic mind control would not really make a person evil in the logic of the story. The Ring Wraiths are pure evil not because they are controlled against their will, but because they like and want what Sauron is offering them.
Which is also why the hobbits are so resistant against the ring. Sauron is not really offering them anything they would want.

The one ring and probably the nine don't create evil. They just accelerate it. Evil is already in all people, the rings only change whether it is allowed to get out or not.

And I think the original quote is only that Isildur cut the ring from Sauron's hand, but I think it's strongly implied that this happened after the body had already been killed and the spirit fled.

[Spiryt]

The whole idea of Evil in Lord of the Rings revolves around Sauron manipulating people to be consumed by their ambition and greed. Simple magic mind control would not really make a person evil in the logic of the story. The Ring Wraiths are pure evil not because they are controlled against their will, but because they like and want what Sauron is offering them.



More like, liked though, naturally. During LotR they are pretty much called slaves of the ring already.



And I think the original quote is only that Isildur cut the ring from Sauron's hand, but I think it's strongly implied that this happened after the body had already been killed and the spirit fled.

Yeah. Gil Galad and Elendil had slain Sauron,dying during it.
Through unspecified means, but probably indeed killing his material body.

Isildur just collected the ring.

Cutting of the ring from live hand was Jackson's and co. initiative, rather bad one IMHO.

[BannedInSchool]

If Sauron had won it would have been warm cookies and cold milk for everyone. Don't listen to those elvish lies. They're not even supposed to be here.

[Talakeal]

I believe that once they became wraiths Sauron took the rings from the nine and kept them, and thus controlled the nazgul through them.

[Reddish Mage]

Also recall that the One Ring has a mind of its own and is loyal to Sauron. That is why no one else can use the Ring to command the ringwraiths.

[factotum]

Also recall that the One Ring has a mind of its own and is loyal to Sauron. That is why no one else can use the Ring to command the ringwraiths.

I don't think it's that simple. It's implied at several points in the books (particularly when Galadriel makes her speech about becoming a Dark Queen) that someone with sufficient will could make use of the power of the One Ring--however, even if they started out with the best of intentions the power of the Ring would eventually corrupt them. Since that never happened it's impossible to say whether the new lord of the Ring would be able to command the Nazgul or not.

[Reddish Mage]

I don't think it's that simple. It's implied at several points in the books (particularly when Galadriel makes her speech about becoming a Dark Queen) that someone with sufficient will could make use of the power of the One Ring--however, even if they started out with the best of intentions the power of the Ring would eventually corrupt them. Since that never happened it's impossible to say whether the new lord of the Ring would be able to command the Nazgul or not.

Eventually corrupt them? Gandalf treated the ring like I was radioactive! No it was implied that only Hobbits had sufficient will or something to carry the ring without being corrupted in shot order.

Perhaps what the Hobbits were missing was the knowledge of magic to use the ring as anything more than a simple ring of invisibility.

[GloatingSwine]

Principally what hobbits lacked was ambition.

Gandalf knew the ring would be dangerous to him because he had the will and desire to change and improve the world, so he would be tempted to use the power of the ring to impose that will on others.

Which is what evil is, the desire to dominate the will of others and to order the world according to your own desire. That's how evil came into being when Morgoth sought to exert undue influence on the song of creation in the beginning, and that's what the ring does, controls the wills and minds of others. The seven and the nine were intended as, essentially, signal boosters for it to strengthen that control over the races of dwarves and men.

When Sam puts it on and feels its temptation he gets visions of how he could use it to make the world the way he wants it. He understands what the ring can do and how, but he's sufficiently humble in his desires that he can reject it (at least from that very short exposure).

What protects hobbits from the power of the ring is their own incredibly limited horizons, they don't as a rule want much beyond comfort, a good meal and a pint. Even Smeagol was eventually protected by his own avarice, because he only desired to have and keep the ring for its own sake.

[Starbuck_II]

Principally what hobbits lacked was ambition.

Gandalf knew the ring would be dangerous to him because he had the will and desire to change and improve the world, so he would be tempted to use the power of the ring to impose that will on others.

Which is what evil is, the desire to dominate the will of others and to order the world according to your own desire. That's how evil came into being when Morgoth sought to exert undue influence on the song of creation in the beginning, and that's what the ring does, controls the wills and minds of others. The seven and the nine were intended as, essentially, signal boosters for it to strengthen that control over the races of dwarves and men.

When Sam puts it on and feels its temptation he gets visions of how he could use it to make the world the way he wants it. He understands what the ring can do and how, but he's sufficiently humble in his desires that he can reject it (at least from that very short exposure).

What protects hobbits from the power of the ring is their own incredibly limited horizons, they don't as a rule want much beyond comfort, a good meal and a pint. Even Smeagol was eventually protected by his own avarice, because he only desired to have and keep the ring for its own sake.
Except Tom. He isn't a Hobbit, but he has no control issued related to the ring.

[factotum]

Eventually corrupt them? Gandalf treated the ring like I was radioactive!

Are you basing that on the movies, or the books? In the books, after the Ring has been through the fire in Frodo's study, Gandalf picks it up with his own bare hand before handing it to Frodo, so it's clearly not as immediately dangerous as you're implying there. In the movies Peter Jackson had the ridiculous idea that Gandalf should pick it up with tongs and then drop it into Frodo's hand, assuring him it was "quite cool"...nevermind that the entire reason he put it into the fire in the first place was to test if this was the One Ring or not, so he couldn't possibly know that for sure!

[Aotrs Commander]

Except Tom. He isn't a Hobbit, but he has no control issued related to the ring.

Yeah, but to be fair, Tom's ambitions reach about as far as "wear brightly coloured clothing, sing about himself in the third person and (presuming papa Tolkien isn't looking, because he would Have Views about that sort of thing) probably being at it like knives with Missus Nymph Wife."

What was the ring gonna offer him...?

[hamishspence]

And I think the original quote is only that Isildur cut the ring from Sauron's hand, but I think it's strongly implied that this happened after the body had already been killed and the spirit fled.

In LOTR, maybe:

"I was the herald of Gil-galad and marched with his host. I was at the Battle of Dagorlad before the Black Gate of Mordor, where we had the mastery: for the Spear of Gil-galad and the Sword of Elendil, Aiglos and Narsil, none could withstand. I beheld the last combat on the slopes of Orodruin, where Gil-galad died, and Elendil fell, and Narsil broke beneath him; but Sauron himself was overthrown, and Isildur cut the Ring from his hand with the hilt-shard of his father's sword, and took it for his own."

In The Silmarillion it's phrased slightly differently:

"But at the last the siege was so strait that Sauron himself came forth; and he wrestled with Gil-galad and Elendil, and they both were slain, and the sword of Elendil broke under him as he fell. But Sauron also was thrown down, and with the hilt-shard of Narsil Isildur cut the Ruling Ring from the hand of Sauron and took it for his own. Then Sauron was for that time vanquished, and he forsook his body, and his spirit fled far away and hid in waste places; and he took no visible shape again for many long years."


and it's also stated that Isildur himself claims to have actually delivered the killing blow:

The Ruling Ring passed out of the knowledge even of the Wise in that age; yet it was not unmade. For Isildur would not surrender it to Elrond and Círdan who stood by. They counselled him to cast it into the fire of Orodruin nigh at hand, in which it had been forged, so that it should perish, and the power of Sauron be for ever diminished, and he should remain only as a shadow of malice in the wilderness. But Isildur refused this counsel, saying: "This I will have as were-gild for my father's death, and my brothers. Was it not I that dealt the Enemy his death-blow?"



It's possible that they may have killed his body, but, (depending on the interpretation), his spirit may not have left the dead body until the ring was removed.

[GloatingSwine]

Except Tom. He isn't a Hobbit, but he has no control issued related to the ring.

Even Tolkien admits that Tom doesn't really fit his mythology. He's an incorporation of westcountry nature spirits rather than an invented part of Tolkien's own world.

[Tvtyrant]

I have it from a good source that Tom Bombadil is a real spirit who smacked Tolkein till he wrote him into the book.
I tend to think of myself as a good source, don't you? :P

[BannedInSchool]

Even Tolkien admits that Tom doesn't really fit his mythology. He's an incorporation of westcountry nature spirits rather than an invented part of Tolkien's own world.
I kind of like him as a near mythological creature within the mythology. We have some elves still around from the war with Morgoth, even Noldor from Valinor who hung out with the gods, and one who may or may not have fought a Balrog personally. What do they have for myths? Well, there's this guy out there who seems to have been there from when the elves first woke up under the stars. He's not just as old as these elves, he's as old as elves entirely. Sure, it's like he's out of a different story that you don't know, but that's like what all those elves are to the ordinary hobbitses.

[Kato]

I was expecting this thread to go in a different direction... but before that:

As people have said, Sauron kind of had a body, though it was badly conveyed in the movies (and not that well in the books, as we never meet him). So he could have put it on and regain his powers, whatever this means to a being that already has no equal in the world he lives in and is winning the war against "good". (Seriously, the ring seems pretty pointless to me, except as a weak point. If there was any indication the Nazgul wouldn't serve him without it but... nope.)

Tom... eh, never cared much for him. I guess he was a leftover from when LOTR was still episodic like Hobbit or Silmarillion and he just included something, assuming nobody would wonder how and why :smalltongue:


So, what was I expecting here: What would have happened if Sauron won the war? He'd conquer all of Middle Earth and then...? Wage war on the land of the gods? Try to go up against a few dozen beings qhich are equal to him in power and a few beyond that? Or just sit back and let the orcs do whatever they want? Try to bring back Melkor, however that would work? It's not like Sauron could get himself a bunch of hot Mayar girls and start a harem or drink wine every day until he passes out or... Seriously, what's his goal, except "rule the world"?

[J-H]

Sauron in the position of Satan, in that he's a powerful being who's been permanently kicked out of heaven and can never win. His goal at this point isn't to defeat and overthrow the Valar (although if they decide to break their rules and show up, he'd fight); he just wants to (1) Rule and be worshipped as much as possible in a pale imitation of what he truly desires and (2) Ruin everything he can for as many other people as possible. Misery loves company.

He might try to bring back Morgoth, if such a thing were possible, but there's nothing in the books indicating any concrete plans for that. The human sacrifices in Numenor were more about #2 above than any sort of method to open a portal from hell the outer darkness into which Morgoth was cast.

[McNum]

I was expecting this thread to go in a different direction... but before that:
Me too, but I think it's a credit to the Playground that my half-groggy silly question of "How can Sauron use the ring if he has no hands?" actually turned into a much more interesting discussion about Middle Earth.

And yes, what Sauron would if he actually won is also an interesting thought. I wonder if him getting too powerful would cause the Valar to decide that they tried being subtle with sending the fettered Maiar Wizards to help the people of Middle Earth help themselves to defeat Sauron, and now less subtle methods are needed. Sauron, for all his power, is not the biggest fish in the ocean, and some of the bigger fish don't like him very much, if I remember right.

[Traab]

Me too, but I think it's a credit to the Playground that my half-groggy silly question of "How can Sauron use the ring if he has no hands?" actually turned into a much more interesting discussion about Middle Earth.

And yes, what Sauron would if he actually won is also an interesting thought. I wonder if him getting too powerful would cause the Valar to decide that they tried being subtle with sending the fettered Maiar Wizards to help the people of Middle Earth help themselves to defeat Sauron, and now less subtle methods are needed. Sauron, for all his power, is not the biggest fish in the ocean, and some of the bigger fish don't like him very much, if I remember right.

Honestly, you could say that about a lot of big bads from all forms of entertainment. The entire focus is on the struggle, not on what would happen afterwards if the bad guy wins. But yeah, I figure sauron would shroud the world in darkness, kill everyone who resists, and run experiments on every species on earth to see what sort of twisted mockeries of life he can create now that he can crossbreed hobbits with ents. He would likely spend a millenia trying to crossbreed dwarves and oliphaunts together to see if he could create housepet breed oliphaunts for his minions to play with, or at least create dwarves with tusks. Whichever happens first really.

[factotum]

(Seriously, the ring seems pretty pointless to me, except as a weak point. If there was any indication the Nazgul wouldn't serve him without it but... nope.)


Remember that the forces of Gondor and Rohan won the Battle of the Pelennor Fields. If Sauron had had the Ring at that point, they wouldn't have done so--heck, there never would have been a battle in the first place, because Sauron could just have brought down the walls of Minas Tirith with a wave of his hand rather than having to use a giant battering ram to do it. As I recall, the stats for Sauron in the back of the Middle-Earth Role Playing RPG manual give a whole load of stats for him without the Ring, then have a section *with* the Ring that pretty much just says, "What do you need stats for? Just have him do whatever he wants!".

[Talakeal]

Remember that the forces of Gondor and Rohan won the Battle of the Pelennor Fields. If Sauron had had the Ring at that point, they wouldn't have done so--heck, there never would have been a battle in the first place, because Sauron could just have brought down the walls of Minas Tirith with a wave of his hand rather than having to use a giant battering ram to do it. As I recall, the stats for Sauron in the back of the Middle-Earth Role Playing RPG manual give a whole load of stats for him without the Ring, then have a section *with* the Ring that pretty much just says, "What do you need stats for? Just have him do whatever he wants!".

In my experience people take a lot of extreme views on Sauron.

I know several people, both online and in person, who claim that Sauron is pathetic and that Smaug / Gandalf / Sarumon / Galadriel / Any Balrog / Glorfindel / Aragorn etc. could easily defeat Sauron, or indeed the whole of Mordor if they so desired.

I also know several people, and game rules, that insist Sauron is more or less omnipotent with stats = "I win" and any attempt to fight him = "Dead PCs".

In my mind the text doesn't support either of these extreme positions.

The text clearly indicates that the people of Middle Earth felt they had no hope unless the ring was destroyed. Gandalf the White and Galadriel both claim to be second only to Sauron in power.

However, Tolkien's letters also state that the Istari or Eldar or possibly even Aragorn could have defeared and replaced Sauron if they had chosen to take up the ring.

On the other hand Sauron has lost several times.

He surrendered to Eonwe after Morgoth was defeated.
He fled from the combined host of the Valar when Morgoth was defeated again.
He was defeated by Luthien, Beren, and Huan the Hound when he took werewolf form in the Silmarillion.
He surrendered to the assembled hosts of Numenor in the Second Age. He had the ring at this point.
He was killed at the end of the Second Age by a collection of mighty heroes including Gil-Galad, Isildur, and Elendil, although he took many of his enemies down with him. The ring was worn during the battle and removed after his death.
And of course Aragorn was able to best him in a brief battle of wills and distract him long enough for the Hobbits to destroy the ring.


In my opinion the text is fairly clear that Sauron is the single most powerful being remaining in Middle Earth in the second and third ages, but not so strong that he cannot be defeated. The ring is a huge boost to whichever side has it, but the ring alone is not enough to make a contest a foregone conclusion.

[Traab]

In my experience people take a lot of extreme views on Sauron.

I know several people, both online and in person, who claim that Sauron is pathetic and that Smaug / Gandalf / Sarumon / Galadriel / Any Balrog / Glorfindel / Aragorn etc. could easily defeat Sauron, or indeed the whole of Mordor if they so desired.

I also know several people, and game rules, that insist Sauron is more or less omnipotent with stats = "I win" and any attempt to fight him = "Dead PCs".

In my mind the text doesn't support either of these extreme positions.

The text clearly indicates that the people of Middle Earth felt they had no hope unless the ring was destroyed. Gandalf the White and Galadriel both claim to be second only to Sauron in power.

However, Tolkien's letters also state that the Istari or Eldar or possibly even Aragorn could have defeared and replaced Sauron if they had chosen to take up the ring.

On the other hand Sauron has lost several times.

He surrendered to Eonwe after Morgoth was defeated.
He fled from the combined host of the Valar when Morgoth was defeated again.
He was defeated by Luthien, Beren, and Huan the Hound when he took werewolf form in the Silmarillion.
He surrendered to the assembled hosts of Numenor in the Second Age. He had the ring at this point.
He was killed at the end of the Second Age by a collection of mighty heroes including Gil-Galad, Isildur, and Elendil, although he took many of his enemies down with him. The ring was worn during the battle and removed after his death.
And of course Aragorn was able to best him in a brief battle of wills and distract him long enough for the Hobbits to destroy the ring.


In my opinion the text is fairly clear that Sauron is the single most powerful being remaining in Middle Earth in the second and third ages, but not so strong that he cannot be defeated. The ring is a huge boost to whichever side has it, but the ring alone is not enough to make a contest a foregone conclusion.

The thing is, Sauron lost only to a united force of pretty much all the legends of the time during the second age on middle earth, as well as the combined armies, and even then took it down to the wire. One on One, he is unbeatable with the ring. (Not counting god battles and such) And now, the big theme of the world is that all the older races are fading, weakening, etc etc etc. Men elves and (presumably) dwarves are not as powerful as they used to be. Meanwhile, the only thing keep sauron from just roflstomping all of middle earth is that he doesnt currently have the ring. He fought middle earth when it was practically at its peak and nearly won. Now? No contest.

The ring itself, I think of as some sort of stupidly overpowered artifact, like, I dunno, adding +12 to all the stats of whoever can truly use it. People like gandalf, galadriel, sauron, etc. Its enough of a boost that it pretty much instantly takes you to #1 status in any direct duel confrontation. Meaning if gandalf or galadriel took it, they would be powerful enough to beat sauron in a direct fight. If SAURON takes it however, he becomes strong enough to crush all of middle earth, because they flat out dont have anyone capable of facing him anymore.

[Talakeal]

The thing is, Sauron lost only to a united force of pretty much all the legends of the time during the second age on middle earth, as well as the combined armies, and even then took it down to the wire. One on One, he is unbeatable with the ring. (Not counting god battles and such) And now, the big theme of the world is that all the older races are fading, weakening, etc etc etc. Men elves and (presumably) dwarves are not as powerful as they used to be. Meanwhile, the only thing keep sauron from just roflstomping all of middle earth is that he doesnt currently have the ring. He fought middle earth when it was practically at its peak and nearly won. Now? No contest.

The ring itself, I think of as some sort of stupidly overpowered artifact, like, I dunno, adding +12 to all the stats of whoever can truly use it. People like gandalf, galadriel, sauron, etc. Its enough of a boost that it pretty much instantly takes you to #1 status in any direct duel confrontation. Meaning if gandalf or galadriel took it, they would be powerful enough to beat sauron in a direct fight. If SAURON takes it however, he becomes strong enough to crush all of middle earth, because they flat out dont have anyone capable of facing him anymore.

I don't disagree with any of that.


I just don't buy that Sauron with the ring could be defeated by second age heroes but third age heroes are so much weaker that they would be snuffed out by him in an instant without even the barest sliver of a glimmer of a hope of victory.

[Traab]

I don't disagree with any of that.


I just don't buy that Sauron with the ring could be defeated by second age heroes but third age heroes are so much weaker that they would be snuffed out by him in an instant without even the barest sliver of a glimmer of a hope of victory.

I do, heck, werent the armies of the third age hilariously, hopelessly outnumbered when they did that desperate attack to draw saurons eye? I forget how the book put it, but they basically managed to scrape up just enough troops to be worth paying attention to, but they all knew they didnt have enough to actually be a real threat to him right? They had already lost by this point. They didnt have the manpower to even force sauron to come out and deal with them himself. And that was without sauron having the ring. They couldnt even stand up to his pure military might. Had the hobbits failed, then all the big names of this age would have died at the black gates, never having even faced sauron. The rest of the world would have been crushed in short order. The elves would have finished fleeing for the grey havens, the dwarves would have been starved out of their mountain homes, the hobbits would have been enslaved and used to grow crops for the war machine at best. The men? They would have joined or died.

[Kato]

Hm... when was the ring made again? I guess it's not unreasonable to assume Sauron is much stronger with the ring then he was before he made it/without it. So likely the progression is something like "lost ring Sauron < before ring Sauron < ringed Sauron" possibly with quite a bit of power in between. But that said... Sauron still controls a massive army of orcs and the Nazgul, he may not be able to do whatever he wants but he is by all accounts the most powerful being left in Middleearth (except Tom, whatever). And he probably knows everyone else is afraid to use the ring. AND while he couldn't take Minas Tirith, he still has a huge army, he has probably more forces throughout Middleearth, he might even still have some proper magic left to if he decides to go into battle himself.
Either story should give a better idea of what he would/could do with the ring. We don't need a rulebook telling us how powerful any given character is with the ring, but a better idea of its impact on the relevant beings would be nice.

[Talakeal]

I do, heck, werent the armies of the third age hilariously, hopelessly outnumbered when they did that desperate attack to draw saurons eye? I forget how the book put it, but they basically managed to scrape up just enough troops to be worth paying attention to, but they all knew they didnt have enough to actually be a real threat to him right? They had already lost by this point. They didnt have the manpower to even force sauron to come out and deal with them himself. And that was without sauron having the ring. They couldnt even stand up to his pure military might. Had the hobbits failed, then all the big names of this age would have died at the black gates, never having even faced sauron. The rest of the world would have been crushed in short order. The elves would have finished fleeing for the grey havens, the dwarves would have been starved out of their mountain homes, the hobbits would have been enslaved and used to grow crops for the war machine at best. The men? They would have joined or died.

I was talking about Sauron's personal power. I agree that the free peoples were hilariously outnumbered by the nations under Sauron's control.

[J-H]

The One Ring was made around 1600 Second Age, and the Second Age was around 2500-3500 years (not looking it up right now). Sauron left it behind when he was taken captive by the Numenoreans in the 2nd Age.

A large force of full-blooded Numenoreans, most blessed of Mankind by the Valar (and with a significant amount of elven blood, being descended from Beren & Luthien and from Elros), was more than he thought he could beat.

The Last Alliance, which fought a 7-year war, was the union of the Numenorean remnant, all the Elves that could fight, and some lesser men. Although Sauron lost, he killed the last Elven High King and the Numenorean leadership.

By the time of LOTR, there are approximately 40 full-blooded Numenorean Rangers who can come down to fight from the North (formerly Arnor). There are some Numenoreans left in Gondor, but they have generally interbred and lost much of their genetic blessing.

Many of the Elves have gone to the west, the losses of the Second Age were never replenished, and they had fires on their own borders to deal with. It can take thousands of years to create a battle-hardened expert elven warrior, and only a second for a fatal blow.

[Seppl]

Hm... when was the ring made again? During the second age. The elves thought that evil was defeated forever in the battle that ended the first age and sought to (re)build great realms in Middle Earth. An unknown person named "Annatar" offered them insight into divine craftsmanship, just what they wanted! With Annatar's help they created many rings of power. Having practiced enough, they created the three elven rings all by themselves. These rings had the power to do what the elves most desired, that is to preserve the past and ward off the wear of time. Unbeknownst to them, Annatar was actually Sauron in disguise. Sauron then crafted the master ring (or maybe he had crafted it earlier and the other rings took their power from the master ring). That ring did what Sauron most desired: Take control over others, subjugating them to his will. The wearers of the elven rings were especially susceptible to this effect. Luckily for them, the elves could feel Sauron taking control over them and ceased using their rings (Until Sauron was defeated later. Then they went all out using their rings. Which is why the elves of the third age are very much interested in the fate of the One Ring. Whoever controls the One Ring could also take control of everything the elves have built in the past age).

The One Ring is not just a stat boost for physical combat. It is a tool of political power. It can sway the will of others. Even control them over great distances through the use of the lesser rings. Armies fight more bravely under its command, whereas the enemy's will wavers. People flock to your cause. But you need power in the first place in order to fully utilize it. It makes you better at ruling the world and can help you conquer it. When Aragorn's army attacked the gates of Mordor, Sauron thought Aragorn had the ring. Yet, Sauron believed his armies could overwhelm Aragorn's because The Ring is not an I-win-button, Aragorn's army was way too small compared to Mordor's. If Aragorn really wanted to conquer the world using the One Ring he would probably have to use it to rally all the men of the west to his cause, the elves, the dwarves, maybe even sway some of the easterlings or southerners to his side and then take on Sauron. It would probably even work.

Remember that Middle Earth is a pretty "realistic" world. The fate of the world is not decided in a duel, Dragonball Z style. You need armies to control territory, loyal followers and stewards if you want to rule the world. Heroic actions of single persons have their place in this world but having a strong, inspiring leader at the head of your state is also necessary. This is the true power the One Ring offers.

[Traab]

I was talking about Sauron's personal power. I agree that the free peoples were hilariously outnumbered by the nations under Sauron's control.

Werent gandalf and the rest openly admitting they couldnt take down sauron even without his ring? Iirc, didnt it take the full wizards council (Good luck getting that together by rotk considering its basically gandalf and maybe radagast) and elvish leaders to manage to make him retreat from mirkwood forest during the events of the hobbit? Im not saying its impossible to mob him down. Im just saying that with the ring on his hand, noone was going to defeat him in a duel in this current age of middle earth. Well, at least, not while playing by the rules. I have no idea what gandalf could theoretically do if he cast off his mortal shell and fought with full power, despite him being forbidden to do that.

[Ravens_cry]

If he won, I'm willing to bet there'd be a intervention from the West in the end , but it would still absolutely suck for pretty much everyone involved until that point.

[Spiryt]

Sauron in the position of Satan, in that he's a powerful being who's been permanently kicked out of heaven and can never win. His goal at this point isn't to defeat and overthrow the Valar (although if they decide to break their rules and show up, he'd fight); he just wants to (1) Rule and be worshipped as much as possible in a pale imitation of what he truly desires and (2) Ruin everything he can for as many other people as possible. Misery loves company.

He might try to bring back Morgoth, if such a thing were possible, but there's nothing in the books indicating any concrete plans for that. The human sacrifices in Numenor were more about #2 above than any sort of method to open a portal from hell the outer darkness into which Morgoth was cast.

Yeah, #2 was what Saruman was doing in Shire, and it was described by Frodo as one of Mordor's 'works'.

[factotum]

And he probably knows everyone else is afraid to use the ring.

He knows nothing of the kind. In fact, the major plot point of the book is that Sauron is afraid someone *will* use the Ring--Aragorn's attack on the Black Gates is done on the assumption that Sauron will believe he sees the arrogance of the new Ring-lord and will move to crush it as quickly as possible to get the ring back. The one thing Sauron never considers, and which leads to his doom, is that he doesn't believe somebody, once having access to the Ring, will actually try to destroy it.


Iirc, didnt it take the full wizards council (Good luck getting that together by rotk considering its basically gandalf and maybe radagast) and elvish leaders to manage to make him retreat from mirkwood forest during the events of the hobbit?

I think it's pretty clear that they didn't force him out of Mirkwood--he was already ready to abandon the subterfuge of the Necromancer and declare himself openly in Mordor, so their actions, at most, hastened something that would have happened in the next few years anyway. They certainly weren't anywhere close to matching him in terms of power.

[WalkingTarget]

The One Ring is not just a stat boost for physical combat.

I agree with the rest of the paragraph this quote was taken from. I even agree with this sentence with the exception of the word "just". The Ring is not meant to be a stat boost for physical combat either. Sauron doesn't fight personally unless he has to and at the end of the Second Age only does so as a last resort after a decade of war and siege that's wrecked his infrastructure and war machine.

He does have the whole "I am a god incarnate; cower before me, puny mortals!" kind of mental thing going on that not many opponents could shrug off, and that would be augmented by the Ring, but personal physical combat was not really implied to be part of the deal. I blame PJ and the other filmmakers who needed a quick visual way to show why Sauron+Ring is a Bad ThingTM.

[Starbuck_II]

I agree with the rest of the paragraph this quote was taken from. I even agree with this sentence with the exception of the word "just". The Ring is not meant to be a stat boost for physical combat either. Sauron doesn't fight personally unless he has to and at the end of the Second Age only does so as a last resort after a decade of war and siege that's wrecked his infrastructure and war machine.

He does have the whole "I am a god incarnate; cower before me, puny mortals!" kind of mental thing going on that not many opponents could shrug off, and that would be augmented by the Ring, but personal physical combat was not really implied to be part of the deal. I blame PJ and the other filmmakers who needed a quick visual way to show why Sauron+Ring is a Bad ThingTM.

But it is also a stat boost. Sauron himself is also waning in power. The elves chose to leave because magic was almost gone. The ring is a magic preserver. With it you can act as if you are still second age. That is a big power up compared to 3rd.

In D&D terms, you can't cast high level spells because without the ring you are limited to 3rd-4th level spells(not enough magic in world). With it, if were capable you can cast up to 6th.

[BannedInSchool]

I was going to say why would anyone want to rule the world anyway. It seems like mostly a big headache. But as an Evil Overlord I guess you could have some fun building monuments to yourself, and terrorizing rebellious people for fun. Then it occurs to me that's Sim City. :smallbiggrin:

[Seppl]

I was going to say why would anyone want to rule the world anyway. Sauron actually does have some kind of a motivation. Or rather: His former master Morgoth had one and Sauron tries to follow the footsteps of his great idol. That motivation is payback to the other Valar/Maiar for not following his lead in the creation of the world. Therefore, this world is flawed and needs to be destroyed. Or if that is not possible (for example, it has been said that the stars are out of Morgoth's reach and he hates this fact) then at least the parts that were made by the Valar need to be destroyed. Or even better: Be corrupted, mocked and then be destroyed. Morgoth tried to destroy the light multiple times (and the Valar rebuilt it). He created orcs and trolls as a mockery of elves and ents (possibly by literally corrupting elven bodies). He spent time and resources just for the purpose of making the lives of his elven and human prisoners as miserable as possible. Sauron tries similar things. He is even being a bit like a Captain Planet villain, destroying beautiful landscapes via pollution, just because he can. His follower, Saruman, descends into similar petty villainy after Sauron's defeat.

This also answers the question what Sauron would have done if he had won: Do as much damage to the world as possible. He might even be wise enough to know that nothing in Middle Earth lasts forever, including himself, and that someday he might still be overthrown. Therefore, he might start by going for short term damage (For him that are things that can be done within a millenium :smallwink: ). Burn those forests, poison the seas, make those mountains into volcanoes. Enslave all the free folk. Not because he needs them as slaves (he has plenty of orcs), but because he likes to see them thus. Only if he is still in power after that time might he start to go for long-term projects. Like: Is there really no way to get to the stars? Can the ocean be destroyed? How about the sun and the moon? Might he be able to challenge Valinor? The latter would then lead to his eventual downfall.

[Tvtyrant]

If Sauron won he would probably sit down on the steps of Baradur, look up at the stars and sigh. He gave up everything for this win, his body, most of his old powers, any chance of seeing his boss again. Without a world to conquer he would have to stop and look at his life, and the void would look back.

[Ravens_cry]

If Sauron won he would probably sit down on the steps of Baradur, look up at the stars and sigh. He gave up everything for this win, his body, most of his old powers, any chance of seeing his boss again. Without a world to conquer he would have to stop and look at his life, and the void would look back.

He'd probably try to conquer the Undying Lands next and get spanked, hard, for his pains, if they didn't come free Middle Earth after the Eldar and mortal races failed.

[Seppl]

He'd probably try to conquer the Undying Lands next and get spanked, hard, for his pains, if they didn't come free Middle Earth after the Eldar and mortal races failed.But the Undying lands now lie beyond the circles of the world. He would probably try anyway but it is a task that is described as impossible. Whenever someone mentioned the stars in Tolkien's works they are described as untouchable beauty, eternally beyond the reach of the enemy, no matter how long his reach gets (Remember that most of the books were written long before any kind of human space program!). But then again, Sauron is the most gifted engineer left in Middle Earth and he believes in the power of technology¹. If anyone can invent rocket science it would be him.

Hmm, Orcs in space? Maybe fighting the Eldar? And why not humans, too? Someone should totally develop a setting like that. Could be set in the far future, let's say 40,000 years. Make it a little bit dark and edgy, to appease modern audiences :smallbiggrin:


¹: Many depictions of Sauron are wrong in this regard. He is not a giant brute in black, spiky armor who punches you in the face with his big, spiky mace. He might do that if he has no other choice. But his approach of choice would be to recruit a huge army of minions; build factories to mass produce armor and weapons; invent new machines and technologies for use by his minions; give command of his armies to a capable leader; then let his minions do the punching, while he watches from afar.

[Traab]

¹: Many depictions of Sauron are wrong in this regard. He is not a giant brute in black, spiky armor who punches you in the face with his big, spiky mace. He might do that if he has no other choice. But his approach of choice would be to recruit a huge army of minions; build factories to mass produce armor and weapons; invent new machines and technologies for use by his minions; give command of his armies to a capable leader; then let his minions do the punching, while he watches from afar.

Yep, there is a reason the ring whispers corruption into your mind instead of turning you into a bloodthirsty berserker. Sauron was the quintessential evil diplomat. He could sell sand in the sahara. Given time he could convince anyone of almost anything. And yep, quite the artificer. Sarumon was kind of a watered down version of sauron in that respect. Had immense personal power, but his silver tongue was the true danger, and his ability to twist and create new things made him very dangerous on an army level. In truth, the first thing sauron would do isnt build an army, its convince you to join him, or trick you into weakening yourself until he can win in a walk. If that failed then yeah, he would come back with a recruited army and stomp you. If he had a theme song it would be this (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hFDcoX7s6rE)

[BannedInSchool]

He could sell sand in the sahara.
IIRC, foreign sand is imported into the region because it's actually better for the use it's being put to.

[Traab]

IIRC, foreign sand is imported into the region because it's actually better for the use it's being put to.

Fine, he could sell water to a goldfish. Happy?

[Eldan]

Well. Sauron is a spirit of artifice and goblins are mentioned in the Hobbit to love machinery. I've seen it mentioned that in some early drafts, the orks used tanks. They have explosives, too.

I'd say given a few centuries, the Mordor Space Agency is entirely possible. (Setting idea.)

[Cikomyr]

Industry is a good way to empower your armed forces with something you can easily deny them if they turn against you.

Sauron only allows magical power to the servants that he enthralled. You can see he does not trust anyone, so all power he promotes is the ones that cant challenge him.

Still. A Post-Sauron victory setting would be interesting. Wonder how close to "Midnight" itll be. Would Sauron like Human and Dwarven slaves and servants..? Or stick with Orcs

[Traab]

Industry is a good way to empower your armed forces with something you can easily deny them if they turn against you.

Sauron only allows magical power to the servants that he enthralled. You can see he does not trust anyone, so all power he promotes is the ones that cant challenge him.

Still. A Post-Sauron victory setting would be interesting. Wonder how close to "Midnight" itll be. Would Sauron like Human and Dwarven slaves and servants..? Or stick with Orcs

I figure he would have his dwarven slaves mine for mithril under goblin oversight, he might keep the halflings alive to work as slave labor on farmlands, humans would serve him or die, we already know there are plenty of nations that server him so at the very least they would be troops. Its also entirely possible he would enjoy just experimenting on the various races and seeing what he could create from the mangled wreckage.

[pendell]

However, Tolkien's letters also state that the Istari or Eldar or possibly even Aragorn could have defeared and replaced Sauron if they had chosen to take up the ring.


"Victory" isn't just a matter of defeating the Dark Lord. It's a matter of defeating the Dark Lord without having to become a Dark Lord yourself in the process.

Sauron was easily beatable by Elrond, Aragorn, Gandalf, Galadriel , or whomever .. IF they seized the ring for themselves and used his own device against him. But the ultimate outcome of that struggle would have been to create another dominating Power who would enslave the entire world .. as Galadriel put it, in her case, she would have become a queen "as terrible as the sea... all shall love me and despair".

The much harder struggle was to cast down the Dark Lord without putting someone else in his place, and that was a thought Sauron simply couldn't conceive of.

We know what Sauron's victory would have looked like in Tolkien's "Scouring of the Shire", which Jackson omitted. Frodo and company return to a shire run as a military dictatorship , held under by armed force and secret police. When they confront the mastermind eventually, they find this mastermind's plan had never been to improve the shire, simply to wreck it out of spite. The fellowship had ruined his plans, and if he could have no plans of his own any more he could at least cause them grief and harm which would take generations to undo.

I suspect a victory by Sauron would have turned out much the same way, since he and the Scouring's mastermind had become much alike at the end of the book.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Kato]

I'd say given a few centuries, the Mordor Space Agency is entirely possible. (Setting idea.)

Orcs in space, huh? This raises the question if gravity exists on Middleearth and how stars work... Maybe they are really just little lights plastered on the ceiling. I'm sure Sauron would sacrifice a few minions to find out.

[Seppl]

Orcs in space, huh? This raises the question if gravity exists on Middleearth and how stars work... This gets actually answered. But you get two answers: One is the elven legend which is somewhat like a geocentric model with different cosmic spheres surrounding the world. In early drafts it is a ship-shaped universe. Or you can go with the other approach: Middle-Earth is just Earth in the past. The two models can even be reconciled by saying that during the cataclysm in the second age one was replaced by the other.


PS: This just makes me realize just how old Tolkien's work is or rather how much our own modern understanding of cosmology has changed since. When the cosmology of Middle-Earth was created, people in the real world were not even sure that there were other galaxies, much less anything else that you could learn today by watching any random space opera.

[GloatingSwine]

One of the effects of the Fall of Numenor was that the world was changed from being flat to being round.

But if you know the "straight path" you can enter the other set of dimensions where the world is still flat and sail to the deathless land of the Valar.

[Gnoman]

I suspect a victory by Sauron would have turned out much the same way, since he and the Scouring's mastermind had become much alike at the end of the book.

Unlikely. The scouring was because the hobbits had taken literally everything from Saruman, and he wanted to take everything from them since he had no chance of getting his land, power, and position back. "You destroyed my home, so I destroyed yours". If the Third Age had ended with the Dark Lord triumphant, he would have lost nothing and gained everything, so he probably wouldn't wreck everything unless he got really bored.

[Cikomyr]

One of the effects of the Fall of Numenor was that the world was changed from being flat to being round.

But if you know the "straight path" you can enter the other set of dimensions where the world is still flat and sail to the deathless land of the Valar.

Wait.. So if Valinor has White Shores...

VALINOR IS THE MOON

And THE GREY HAVENS ARE A SPACE LAUNCH PAD

It all makes sense!! Elves just left the Earth to go join the Goda on the Moon!

So the Mordor Space Program would be Sauron's attempts at conquering Valinor!

[Seppl]

Wait.. So if Valinor has White Shores...

VALINOR IS THE MOON

And THE GREY HAVENS ARE A SPACE LAUNCH PAD

It all makes sense!! Elves just left the Earth to go join the Goda on the Moon!

So the Mordor Space Program would be Sauron's attempts at conquering Valinor!You may laugh now, but have you ever read the Lord of the Rings or the Silmarillion while pretending that the elves are a really advanced civilization and all the elvish magic is just the primitive humans not understanding their technology? It is scary how well that works. And great fun, I can totally recommend rereading the books with this in mind. Some ideas to get you started:
-Elvish ships, made of mithrill and unbreakable elven-glass, that can fly through the heavens? Obviously space ships made of aluminum and plexiglass.
-Palantiri? You are probably using one right now.
-Color-shifting cloaks? Sounds like some fancy military camouflage system
-Lembas? Some kind of MRE or energy bar.
-Elves never get sick? Of course not, with modern medicine.

This also works for the devices of the enemy. The story of the fall of Gondolin in particular has him using World War I vehicles to assault the city.

[The Glyphstone]

Yet more proof for my theory that the Starcraft universe is just LotR IN SPAAAAAAACE.

[Dienekes]

Yet more proof for my theory that the Starcraft universe is just LotR IN SPAAAAAAACE.

En Taro Glorfindel.

My life for Imladris.

[The Glyphstone]

En Taro Glorfindel.

My life for Imladris.

It's a story about a group of rag-tag humans team up with a bunch of arrogant, pointy-eared humanoid aliens in command of strong magicalpsionic powers who are also the last remnant of an ancient civilization. Together, the two factions wage a desperate war against an all-consuming evil horde of bad guys and monsters who travel to the battlefield riding in giant burrowing worms.

[Raimun]

If Sauron won, he would certainly liberate the orcs of the oppression of those elitist elves and humans and he would make sure no one is ever oppressed again.

Yeah, right.

I suppose he would first make sure to conquer the people of the world, which is supposed to be what the ring is capable of. One Ring to rule them all (the other rings), and so on.
This was supposed to be his ultimate goal but somehow I doubt he would settle for this.
Since he doesn't need to focus on war and getting the ring back anymore, he would most likely try to make his own creatures, kind of like Morgoth tried to make his own creatures but could only corrupt elves to orcs.
Then, since the creatures he corrupted would be (most likely) lesser than orcs, he would most likely become pretty destructive and corrupt and maim the world around him for no apparent reason, just out of spite.
Occassionally, he might try his hand at creating new (lifeless) items of power to take his mind of stressful things and succeed but that kind of thing might be just too hollow after a failure to create new creatures.
He'd probably try to regain his past glory, appearance and power but as the nature of evil in LotR is to diminish, he would only have his diminished power, albeit now artificially amplified by the ring.
At this point, he would most likely have a rather huge existential crisis, since everything he now tries just isn't happening.
He might even try forging a New Item of Power (Two Ring? heh.) to surpass his Ring but this just won't happen either. I'm sure he doesn't have enough juice left to power a greater item.
Eventually, he would try to invade Valinor, even though he should know better. This is of course, the end of him. Manwë would just see him approaching afar and Tulkas would suplex him to the void.

This is all assuming Valinor doesn't invade Mordor before some or every one of these steps.

And to answer the original question: yes. Sauron has a body with two hands and nine fingers left. He could still wear the ring. He must would feel really stupid if he realized after getting the ring back that there was no way for him to use it anymore.

[Misery Esquire]

...and Tulkas would suplex him to the void.

Tulkas is actually a luchador and the Door of Night is the exit for defeated opponents from his fighting ring : Confirmed

[Dienekes]

It's a story about a group of rag-tag humans team up with a bunch of arrogant, pointy-eared humanoid aliens in command of strong magicalpsionic powers who are also the last remnant of an ancient civilization. Together, the two factions wage a desperate war against an all-consuming evil horde of bad guys and monsters who travel to the battlefield riding in giant burrowing worms.

Protoss don't have ears. This clearly means that your point is invalid.

[Eldan]

Tolkien never said elven ears were especially big or pointy.

[GloatingSwine]

Protoss don't have ears. This clearly means that your point is invalid.

Protoss don't have any orifices at all.

They do, however, have nipples.


This raises questions.

[Talakeal]

Tolkien never said elven ears were especially big or pointy.

Iirc the jury is still out on that one. Hedescribes Legolas' ears as leaf shaped and describs hobbit ears as "elfin", so while he doesnt outright say elves have large or pointed ears he certainly implies that there is something special abut their shape.

[Raimun]

Iirc the jury is still out on that one. Hedescribes Legolas' ears as leaf shaped and describs hobbit ears as "elfin", so while he doesnt outright say elves have large or pointed ears he certainly implies that there is something special abut their shape.

Perhaps he meant elven ears are shaped like maple leaves?

[Cikomyr]

There are round leaves also.

Maybe its just Legolas who had a malformation?

[Emperordaniel]

Perhaps he meant elven ears are shaped like maple leafs?

Maple Leafs (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toronto_Maple_Leafs) or maple leaves (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maple_leaf)? :smalltongue:

[Raimun]

Maple Leafs (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toronto_Maple_Leafs) or maple leaves (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maple_leaf)? :smalltongue:

I thought it was obvious I meant the hockey team?

[Lord]

I have actually developed a great deal of thought to this. My conclusion was this:
If Sauron won, he would still lose.

No seriously. The Valar are clearly defined as being entities of pure good, who once before showed up to kick the hell out of the previous big bad. The only reason they didn't do it again was because Middle Earth still had a chance of beating Sauron on their own, and the last time the Valar saved the day they ripped the land apart Dragonball Z style from the sheer weight of their power. If Sauron were to get the Ring, and successfully bring Middle Earth under his heel, and all hope for mortals overthrowing him was exhausted, then I fully expect the Valar would just sigh and start another invasion to free Middle Earth.

Thing is, Morgoth had a huge army of Dragons at his disposal, which Sauron does not. Sauron has Trolls, and a bunch of Orcs at his disposal and one or two higher level creatures like Shelob. The Valar, in contrast, are completely undiminished from what they were originally. They have lost none of their power since the days of old. Sauron Vs the West would be comparable to Suddam vs America in the Persian Gulf War. An unmitigated slaughter with few, if any losses by the Valar.

The only suspenseful part of what happens after Sauron wins in Middle Earth against mere mortals, is how much he can destroy before the sins of the past catch up with him.

In a way, the worst case scenario for Middle Earth is not Sauron getting the ring, but one of the heroes claiming it for their own. Tolkien himself, I believe, said that Gandalf and Galadriel would have in time become even worse than Sauron, since at least Sauron was openly evil. While Galadriel and Gandalf would have confused the very nature of good in their tyranny, since they would basically become canonical Mary Sues.

...Dear God the Hobbit Movies sucked.

[Rockphed]

Dear God the Hobbit Movies sucked.

Minor non-sequitur that. Though maybe they got worse after the first one. The only thing I actively hated about it was the "lets run around on a mountainside that is moving" scene. The danger felt fake; it did not add to the world or the story; the line it draws from in the book is a throwaway about a thunderstorm for crying out loud. Why does every adaptation include the moronic idea of stone giants wandering around making merry havoc in middle earth. We already have trolls, ents, Balrog, and Beorn. Why do we need throwaway stone giants?

[pendell]

Really? The part I hated was :

1) Gold statue attack!

2) Elvish-Dwarf romance (just because you have a female lead doesn't mean she has to be a romantic interest). Morgul wound and that entirely unnecessary subplot.

3) Azog the Terminator.

4) Goblins who somehow infiltrate Laketown and no one notices.


Somewhere inside that 12 hours of film there's a perfectly good 90 minute film screaming to get out :smallamused:.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[factotum]

Minor non-sequitur that. Though maybe they got worse after the first one.

The first one wasn't great, let's be honest. I will give it props for actually giving Bilbo a *reason* to run out of house after the dwarves to join their quest--the book pretty much has him do it just because Gandalf tells him to. Other than that, though, it was way overlong for the material it contained--something that comes of expanding what should have been two movies at most into three, methinks.

[Aotrs Commander]

Personally, I enjoyed the hell out of the Hobbit films as much as the LotR ones.

ESPECIALLY the extra bits with the Elves...

[kaufen]

Sauron would enjoy running Middle-Earth the way it was supposed to be run according to his master Melkor's vision of things: autocratically, with all beings worshipping their leader.

Melkor fooled himself into believing that he wanted to order Middle-Earth his way for the good of Elves and Men. But what he really wanted was control over everything.

If the Valar wouldn't get off their asses and do something about him, like they had -- twice -- before with Melkor, then presumably Iluvatar would have to step in.

[Talakeal]

Minor non-sequitur that. Though maybe they got worse after the first one. The only thing I actively hated about it was the "lets run around on a mountainside that is moving" scene. The danger felt fake; it did not add to the world or the story; the line it draws from in the book is a throwaway about a thunderstorm for crying out loud. Why does every adaptation include the moronic idea of stone giants wandering around making merry havoc in middle earth. We already have trolls, ents, Balrog, and Beorn. Why do we need throwaway stone giants?

While I did not like how the giants were handled in the film either, I don't know why it is innapropriate to include them at all.

The giants are mentioned several times in chapters 4-6 and the two which follow, and not always as a potential metaphor or myth either.

Aside from cutting dowm the runtime, why would an adaptation exclude them?

[Lord]

Really? The part I hated was :

1) Gold statue attack!

2) Elvish-Dwarf romance (just because you have a female lead doesn't mean she has to be a romantic interest). Morgul wound and that entirely unnecessary subplot.

3) Azog the Terminator.

4) Goblins who somehow infiltrate Laketown and no one notices.


Somewhere inside that 12 hours of film there's a perfectly good 90 minute film screaming to get out :smallamused:.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

For my part I enjoyed the First Film, since it didn't deviate too much. Aside from Radagast, whom I found repulsive. The second film was really the point where everything fell flat, since it became increasingly obvious that the Film Makers had no respect for the original book. Believe it or not, I was actually willing to give Tauriel a chance. After all, she supposed to be based off of the Captain of the Guard from the original film and given an expanded role. I was hoping she would be prominent in the one scene the Captain of the Guard was prominent in, and then be just a mauve shirt for Thranduil to give orders to.

But no, the whole 'captain of the Guard' thing fell flat, because the Captain of the Guard was only in one scene, where he got drunk and fell into a stupor, giving Bilbo the opportunity he needed to get the keys to the Dwarves Cells. Tauriel was not in that scene, which is unfortunate, because that would have actually given her a personality. If they really had to add a female OC into the film, the least they could do was build on what had already been established.

So yeah, Tauriel is not remotely based off of any character from the book, and anyone who says otherwise is drunk or stupid.

...I think this is getting a bit off topic. Maybe we should start a separate thread for this?

[Talakeal]

For my part I enjoyed the First Film, since it didn't deviate too much. Aside from Radagast, whom I found repulsive. The second film was really the point where everything fell flat, since it became increasingly obvious that the Film Makers had no respect for the original book. Believe it or not, I was actually willing to give Tauriel a chance. After all, she supposed to be based off of the Captain of the Guard from the original film and given an expanded role. I was hoping she would be prominent in the one scene the Captain of the Guard was prominent in, and then be just a mauve shirt for Thranduil to give orders to.

But no, the whole 'captain of the Guard' thing fell flat, because the Captain of the Guard was only in one scene, where he got drunk and fell into a stupor, giving Bilbo the opportunity he needed to get the keys to the Dwarves Cells. Tauriel was not in that scene, which is unfortunate, because that would have actually given her a personality. If they really had to add a female OC into the film, the least they could do was build on what had already been established.

So yeah, Tauriel is not remotely based off of any character from the book, and anyone who says otherwise is drunk or stupid.

...I think this is getting a bit off topic. Maybe we should start a separate thread for this?

Of course this hints at a deeper discussion, if the goal of an adaptation to mirror the book precisely or to make a good movie regardless of the source material?

For my part I will say it depends. While I like both movie and book versions of both Hobbit and LoTR I must say that I found the changes made to LoTR generally improved upon the book while those in the Hobbit generally hurt it, but that is just one man's opinion.

[factotum]

I found the changes made to LoTR generally improved upon the book while those in the Hobbit generally hurt it, but that is just one man's opinion.

You can say that again. Apart from an increased role for women, I can't think of a single scene that the LOTR movies did better than the books, and some of the changes they made were outright ridiculous (like Gandalf picking up the Ring with tongs after it went through the fire and then dropping it in Frodo's hand, assuring him it was quite cool--in the book he could reasonably make that assertion because he *picked it up with his hand*!).

(I realise I tend to mostly rag on the LOTR movies, which may give the impression I thought they were awful. On the contrary, I thought they were pretty good fantasy movies. They just weren't LOTR).

[Rockphed]

Of course this hints at a deeper discussion, if the goal of an adaptation to mirror the book precisely or to make a good movie regardless of the source material?

This is actually the crux of why I did not like the stone giants. They weren't used in a way that clung close to the book, and they did not add to it being a good movie. Literally the only defense I have ever heard of them is the "they are in the book" line. Yet the only defense people offer of the movies is "you need to let the movies be their own thing."

And the last time I checked, I found a single line about the giants in the book. I don't have a copy hand; I cannot check right now.

[Talakeal]

You can say that again. Apart from an increased role for women, I can't think of a single scene that the LOTR movies did better than the books, and some of the changes they made were outright ridiculous (like Gandalf picking up the Ring with tongs after it went through the fire and then dropping it in Frodo's hand, assuring him it was quite cool--in the book he could reasonably make that assertion because he *picked it up with his hand*!).

(I realise I tend to mostly rag on the LOTR movies, which may give the impression I thought they were awful. On the contrary, I thought they were pretty good fantasy movies. They just weren't LOTR).

To give you specifics I would have to go through and read the books again in depth, its more of an impression. The LoTR movies are my all time favorites, while the books are, for the most part, a slog to read through.

Personally the biggest difference that comes to my mind is that the characters in the movies are a lot more nuanced. In the books Aragorn is portrayed as Mr. Perfect while Boromir never does anything right, while in the movies both of them are a lot more human with both flaws and heroic aspects.

But again, its all opinion, in my mind your point about the ring and the tongs is a minor nitpick at best, while for you it seems to be something major.


This is actually the crux of why I did not like the stone giants. They weren't used in a way that clung close to the book, and they did not add to it being a good movie. Literally the only defense I have ever heard of them is the "they are in the book" line. Yet the only defense people offer of the movies is "you need to let the movies be their own thing."

And the last time I checked, I found a single line about the giants in the book. I don't have a copy hand; I cannot check right now.

IIRC the giants are mentioned six times in the Hobbit.


Page 63 "...he saw across the valley the stone giants were out, and hurling rocks at one another for a for a game, and catching them, and tossing them down into the darkness where they smashed among the trees far below..."

Page 63 "They could hear the giants guffawing and shouting all over the mountainsides."

Page 63 "This won't do at all," said Thorin. "If we don't get blown off, or drowned, or struck by lightning, we shall be picked up by some giant and kicked sky-high for a football."

Page 63 "...Gandalf was feeling very grumpy, and was far from happy about the giants himself."

Page 86 "...Bilbo sat in the dark thinking of all the horrible names of all the giants and ogres he had ever heard told of in tales..."

Page 104 "I must see if I can't find a more or less decent giant to block it up again," said Gandalf, "or soon there will be no getting over the mountains at all."

[Lord]

To give you specifics I would have to go through and read the books again in depth, its more of an impression. The LoTR movies are my all time favorites, while the books are, for the most part, a slog to read through.

Personally the biggest difference that comes to my mind is that the characters in the movies are a lot more nuanced. In the books Aragorn is portrayed as Mr. Perfect while Boromir never does anything right, while in the movies both of them are a lot more human with both flaws and heroic aspects.

But again, its all opinion, in my mind your point about the ring and the tongs is a minor nitpick at best, while for you it seems to be something major.


Personally I felt that the Fellowship of the Ring extended edition was very nearly a perfect movie. The only problem I found was that after reading the books through, I find myself increasingly irritated with how they did the Hobbits. Frodo was not the vapid wimp which the movies portrayed him as, he was a stoic stiff upper lipped dutiful badass, who just so happened to be overshadowed by Sam Gamgee is badassery.

It was only in the later installments that they began to mess with things that should have been left alone. The sub plots they added usually had no place, with the only forgivable one I could find being the scene in Osgiliath, since they weren't doing Shelob, and there really was no climax to the Hobbit side of the story beyond that. The more the Elves showed up where they weren't needed, the more sick I got of it.

That said, where I take exception to your remarks is the statement that Aragorn is Mr Perfect, and Boromir never doing anything right. In the books Boromir is the only reason they don't all freeze to death on Caradras, since he is the one with sense enough to suggest bringing containers of firewood just in case. He is far from being the designated villain of the group, it just so happens that he is the one who was in favor of using the ring.

When he lost hope after Gandalf died, he tried to seize it out of desperation. Boromir's character is a tragic figure, who is extremely useful for the duration of the story he is in. Its true that the movies gave Boromir different awesome moments from the Books, but he was just as useful in both.

As for Aragorn being Mr Perfect...
He makes mistakes. He admits to making mistakes throughout the book. Aside from his somewhat too formal dialogue he really doesn't seem all that bad to me. And yes he has occasional moments of Kinglyness, but thats just part of his character. Moreover, another part of his character is lost in the changing times.

For instance, long ago, when Tolkien was writing the books, it was considered almost unheard of to eat while standing up, or walking. In Bree, after the Nazgul have ransacked the Inn, Strider casually suggesting that 'a bite standing' will have to suffice was supposed to indicate that he was used to extremely rough forms of living. In these days when we read that, its just an indication that the situation is stressful. Someone reading it back then would have had a clear sense of culture shock from reading that.