Warlock Patron: The Reaper

[DracoKnight]

There's no real patron who can fill in for the Grim Reaper. Fiend is kind of an acceptable stand in, but it's really missing a lot, I feel. So...this is my take on the quintessential agent of Death: The Reaper (https://docs.google.com/document/d/14j-jjtkemnZLu4j2SKjS_DKmbGEucboy5WAJaVZg_X8/edit?usp=sharing).

Here's a free PDF Version (https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B66RprYE6_HHLUY5VkZSMjBFV0U/view?usp=sharing) of this Patron :smallsmile:

[UrsusArctos]

Undying Warlock from the SCAG can appropriately fit a Grim Reaper.

[DracoKnight]

Undying Warlock from the SCAG can appropriately fit a Grim Reaper.

I honestly see that as more someone trying to attain immortality or lichdom. They're not an agent of Death.

[Turtlemancer]

I love this I keep saying warlock needs more grey Patrons, and I had a simular idea though I never followed up on it.

[ji6]

Death’s Sharp Blade
You may use your Charisma, instead of Strength or Dexterity, to calculate your attack and damage bonuses.

DAMN, that is super strong. Like, it almost invalidates a 12th level invocation, it is perfect for a one-level dip for tons of classes, AND, on top of all of that, it applies to both STR and DEX weapons, meaning you can use the best weapons of both worlds without needing two stats. Um, yeah, I think this needs to get toned down a lot, or at least moved way back in levels. I mean, a fighter would always just want to one-level dip this to be able to use both longbows and greatswords super effectively.


Deathmarch
...In addition, you may invoke the haunting Deathmarch...

What action do I use? It would be reasonable to use an action to invoke this, less would probably be way more powerful than reasonable in my opinion.


Create Specter
...You may have no more than seven specters under your control at any time.

Wait, what? Animate dead gives you, casted at 5th level, 5 Undead CR 1/4 Creatures. This feature gives you at no real cost 7 CR 1 Undead Creatures. I think you should have a lot less than 1, maybe like 4? 4 also has the benefit of being considered a really unlucky number associated with death in some countries, which sounds like another cool reason to reduce it to that number.

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P.S. This reaper archetype gets that awesome reaper cantrip you made the other day since they are warlocks, right? You should include it in the same file, or at least link it with this class (since it makes them even stronger, and are likely going to be used together).

[DracoKnight]

DAMN, that is super strong. Like, it almost invalidates a 12th level invocation, it is perfect for a one-level dip for tons of classes, AND, on top of all of that, it applies to both STR and DEX weapons, meaning you can use the best weapons of both worlds without needing two stats. Um, yeah, I think this needs to get toned down a lot, or at least moved way back in levels. I mean, a fighter would always just want to one-level dip this to be able to use both longbows and greatswords super effectively.

Sorry. Fixed this ability to be the way I had intended it. I'm on painkillers right now for a back issue, and obviously it screwed up my clarification of a lot of how this works. My apologies to everyone.



What action do I use? It would be reasonable to use an action to invoke this, less would probably be way more powerful than reasonable in my opinion.

It's a standard action.


Wait, what? Animate dead gives you, casted at 5th level, 5 Undead CR 1/4 Creatures. This feature gives you at no real cost 7 CR 1 Undead Creatures. I think you should have a lot less than 1, maybe like 4? 4 also has the benefit of being considered a really unlucky number associated with death in some countries, which sounds like another cool reason to reduce it to that number.

Holy Hell! 7?! $#!T. I was out of it. I meant 3, but I was also reading from the Wraith ability :smalltongue:

EDIT: However, 7 is still balanced against the other Warlocks. Fiend gets Hurl Through Hell at 14th and that's 10d10 psychic damage. The Specters deal 10 damage with no multiattack, so it's probably approximate to Hurl Through Hell, since Hurl Through Hell doesn't require a save, and it removes an enemy from the battlefield.

All of this said, 3 was the intended amount of Specters.


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P.S. This reaper archetype gets that awesome reaper cantrip you made the other day since they are warlocks, right? You should include it in the same file, or at least link it with this class (since it makes them even stronger, and are likely going to be used together).

It is now linked :smallsmile:

[Requiemforlust]

This is SO badass! I love it. Also, I agree with a lot of what ji6 said, but you've already fixed it.

[GandalfTheWhite]

Let's face it, I'm usually impressed by what you make, but this...this is awesome. I was just about to start playing an Undying Bladelock/Death Cleric that was aiming for this kind of character, but now I think I will ask SterlingWren if I can play this instead! :smallbiggrin:

[SterlingWren]

Let's face it, I'm usually impressed by what you make, but this...this is awesome. I was just about to start playing an Undying Bladelock/Death Cleric that was aiming for this kind of character, but now I think I will ask SterlingWren if I can play this instead! :smallbiggrin:

It looks okay to me :smallsmile:

[GandalfTheWhite]

it almost invalidates a 12th level invocation

No, no it doesn't. Not even in the original form. The feature (originally) was basically a permanent CHA-based shillelagh. Which, while still powerful, is about on the power level of the Armor of Shadows Invocation.

The Invocation you're thinking of is Lifedrinker:




Lifedrinker
Prerequisite: 12th level. Pact of the Blade feature
When you hit a creature with your pact weapon, the creature takes extra necrotic damage equal to your Charisma modifier.

The Level 1 feature of The Reaper Patron does not invalidate Lifedrinker, both in the original form, and revised. You would just use your CHA to hit and damage, and then add CHA necrotic damage.

If you have a 16 STR, and you're level 1, your to hit is going to be a +5, and your bonus damage is 3.
If you have a 16 CHA, it would be calculated the same way (+5, 3), if you had the Death's Sharp Blade feature.

It's only strong because it allows you to pump one stat and ignore stats that aren't your casting stat, which I'm fine with since Bladelocks are MAD anyway, needing STR (if not using finesse), DEX (weapon, and AC), CON, and CHA.

[ji6]

No, no it doesn't [invalidate Lifedrinker]. Not even in the original form. The feature (originally) was basically a permanent CHA-based shillelagh. Which, while still powerful, is about on the power level of the Armor of Shadows Invocation.

In my opinion, it was insanely stronger than Shillelagh. Shillelagh restricts you to two simple weapon options, neither of which are ranged, are both bludgeoning, deal a maximum of 1d8 damage, requires you to use a bonus action, and is magic and so can be dispelled. So, that alone makes the original form a lot different and stronger since the original form works on everything, meaning you can do awesome stuff with longbows as well as greatswords, can deal whatever type of damage you want by picking different weapons, basically don't have to invest in the agonizing blast invocation immediately as you have longbows (you might choose not to invest if you plan on melee), required no actions to invest in it, and cannot be dispelled in any way.

As for it invalidating the invocation, I said it almost does mainly because of the purpose of that invocation. That invocation adds the stat you had been pumping to your damage, and giving that at level one is a powerful feature since you are the equivalent of a full-caster as well (also, you are giving a 12th level invocation without restriction of necrotic damage, and adding even more bonuses). The reason it invalidates it is exactly that: you already got it at level 1. You are giving a full-caster a BETTER ability than classes specialized in martial get at that level by far. You get to use the best ranged weapons and the best melee weapons on the same stat, and when magical weapons come out, you instantly can take your pick of any of them due to your level 3 feature. I think of it like giving a bladesinging wizard the ability to make any attack roll using intelligence instead of DEX/STR at level 1 without using any time or resources. It is a super super strong feature that, when backed at the superb spell list consisting of some of the highest regarded damage dealing spells, is even stronger.


If you have a 16 STR, and you're level 1, your to hit is going to be a +5, and your bonus damage is 3.
If you have a 16 CHA, it would be calculated the same way (+5, 3), if you had the Death's Sharp Blade feature.

As for your example, it is not like you have a 16 STR and comparing that to how a 16 CHA would be similar, you need to think of it as having a 16 STR and 16 DEX for regards of hitting things. So, essentially, 3 stats are considered 16 by your charisma being 16. And before you complain about dex giving other benefits, so does STR. One of the benefits of STR is being able to use higher dealing weapons, and also grappling. This took half of that, and you ignored that in your example so I am going to ignore the other benefits of DEX in mine.


It's only strong because it allows you to pump one stat and ignore stats that aren't your casting stat, which I'm fine with since Bladelocks are MAD anyway, needing STR (if not using finesse), DEX (weapon, and AC), CON, and CHA.

I generally do not like people complaining about being MAD in this edition because I have played a lot of other editions beforehand. In my opinion, being MAD is a consequence of wanting to do martial and magic in this edition, and you do not see Elderitch Knights using their Dex or Str modifier to cast spells instead of their Int because of being "MAD."

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MOST Important Note
I am really sorry if this sounds super harsh and rude, but I gave a several reasons in my post, and you focused on the smallest of the issues in my mind to consider it balanced, then ignored the rest of my statement as if it didn't exist. Honestly, I tried rewriting this twice to make it less rude, but every time I did my point did not seem to come across well. I hope you accept that I am not purposely trying to be rude or offend you, but more so trying to be somewhat clear in expression, and I hope that if we continue this discussion, you can keep a cool head so I could follow suit. Once again, I am sorry if I was rude towards you in this post.

[GandalfTheWhite]

In my opinion, it was insanely stronger than Shillelagh. Shillelagh restricts you to two simple weapon options, neither of which are ranged, are both bludgeoning, deal a maximum of 1d8 damage, requires you to use a bonus action, and is magic and so can be dispelled. So, that alone makes the original form a lot different and stronger since the original form works on everything, meaning you can do awesome stuff with longbows as well as greatswords, can deal whatever type of damage you want by picking different weapons, basically don't have to invest in the agonizing blast invocation immediately as you have longbows (you might choose not to invest if you plan on melee), required no actions to invest in it, and cannot be dispelled in any way.

As for it invalidating the invocation, I said it almost does mainly because of the purpose of that invocation. That invocation adds the stat you had been pumping to your damage, and giving that at level one is a powerful feature since you are the equivalent of a full-caster as well (also, you are giving a 12th level invocation without restriction of necrotic damage, and adding even more bonuses). The reason it invalidates it is exactly that: you already got it at level 1. You are giving a full-caster a BETTER ability than classes specialized in martial get at that level by far. You get to use the best ranged weapons and the best melee weapons on the same stat, and when magical weapons come out, you instantly can take your pick of any of them due to your level 3 feature. I think of it like giving a bladesinging wizard the ability to make any attack roll using intelligence instead of DEX/STR at level 1 without using any time or resources. It is a super super strong feature that, when backed at the superb spell list consisting of some of the highest regarded damage dealing spells, is even stronger.



As for your example, it is not like you have a 16 STR and comparing that to how a 16 CHA would be similar, you need to think of it as having a 16 STR and 16 DEX for regards of hitting things. So, essentially, 3 stats are considered 16 by your charisma being 16. And before you complain about dex giving other benefits, so does STR. One of the benefits of STR is being able to use higher dealing weapons, and also grappling. This took half of that, and you ignored that in your example so I am going to ignore the other benefits of DEX in mine.



I generally do not like people complaining about being MAD in this edition because I have played a lot of other editions beforehand. In my opinion, being MAD is a consequence of wanting to do martial and magic in this edition, and you do not see Elderitch Knights using their Dex or Str modifier to cast spells instead of their Int because of being "MAD."

----------------------------------------------------

MOST Important Note
I am really sorry if this sounds super harsh and rude, but I gave a several reasons in my post, and you focused on the smallest of the issues in my mind to consider it balanced, then ignored the rest of my statement as if it didn't exist. Honestly, I tried rewriting this twice to make it less rude, but every time I did my point did not seem to come across well. I hope you accept that I am not purposely trying to be rude or offend you, but more so trying to be somewhat clear in expression, and I hope that if we continue this discussion, you can keep a cool head so I could follow suit. Once again, I am sorry if I was rude towards you in this post.

Thank you for your response. I honestly don't find any of this rude. I would like you to know that there's a reason I focused in on that tiny little detail: It's the ONLY flaw I found in your comments. I understood everything that you were saying, and it was solid. That's literally the only thing that bothered me about your statement. And the OP took everything you said to heart, and changed their mechanics, so really, I was only nitpicking. I apologize for not clarifying that. This misunderstanding is my fault.

[ji6]

Thank you for your response. I honestly don't find any of this rude. I would like you to know that there's a reason I focused in on that tiny little detail: It's the ONLY flaw I found in your comments. I understood everything that you were saying, and it was solid. That's literally the only thing that bothered me about your statement. And the OP took everything you said to heart, and changed their mechanics, so really, I was only nitpicking. I apologize for not clarifying that. This misunderstanding is my fault.

Really? I felt like it was pretty rude, but I usually try to be somewhat roundabout when I mention stuff and that was a lot more direct. As for nitpicking, I think that is fine to do and do it myself (look how I am nitpicking at his stuff :P), but I am one to argue back if I feel like someone is missing the main point. I honestly deal with people who only focus on one minor detail of something and ignore the rest a lot, and thought you were arguing for the initial writing based on your post. Anyway, do not worry about it too much :P. I do not think it was really much of a big deal.


Sorry. Fixed [the Death’s Sharp Blade] ability to be the way I had intended it. I'm on painkillers right now for a back issue, and obviously it screwed up my clarification of a lot of how this works. My apologies to everyone.

Nah, don't worry about it :D. Hmmm, I think it is still slightly too strong. What do you think about restricting it to only be certain type of weapons, like weapons that deal slashing damage? When I think of reapers, I think of executioner axes, knives, scythes, and weapons like that. I think that would reign it in a great deal, although it would hurt their ability to use a longbow, which might have been something you wanted them to be good at.


It's a standard action.

Ah, great! Thank you ^+^.


Holy Hell! 7?! $#!T. I was out of it. I meant 3, but I was also reading from the Wraith ability :smalltongue:

EDIT: However, 7 is still balanced against the other Warlocks. Fiend gets Hurl Through Hell at 14th and that's 10d10 psychic damage. The Specters deal 10 damage with no multiattack, so it's probably approximate to Hurl Through Hell, since Hurl Through Hell doesn't require a save, and it removes an enemy from the battlefield.

All of this said, 3 was the intended amount of Specters.

But, you can Hurl Through Hell only once per long rest. You can keep summoning specters as they die after combat finishes, so essentially you have that amount of damage repeating most turns, and the specters will tank a lot of damage. Also, 7 more so feels like a lot to manage to me, especially since they are ethereal and therefore can do fun stuff. I think 3 sounds like a better number than 7 to me for those reasons :P.

By the way, I think you should clarify how you give them orders. Can they all have unique orders? Or are they like things summoned by animate dead, where your options are much more limited? Does it take a bonus action in combat to tell them something else, or do you just have to say it? Also, do they act on their own initiative or yours?


It is now linked :smallsmile:

Perfect! Thank you :D

[DracoKnight]

Nah, don't worry about it :D. Hmmm, I think it is still slightly too strong. What do you think about restricting it to only be certain type of weapons, like weapons that deal slashing damage? When I think of reapers, I think of executioner axes, knives, scythes, and weapons like that. I think that would reign it in a great deal, although it would hurt their ability to use a longbow, which might have been something you wanted them to be good at.

I think this is a great idea! :smallbiggrin:


Ah, great! Thank you ^+^.

You are most welcome! :smallsmile:


But, you can Hurl Through Hell only once per long rest. You can keep summoning specters as they die after combat finishes, so essentially you have that amount of damage repeating most turns, and the specters will tank a lot of damage. Also, 7 more so feels like a lot to manage to me, especially since they are ethereal and therefore can do fun stuff. I think 3 sounds like a better number than 7 to me for those reasons :P.

This is true. Hurl Through Hell is once per long rest. I think I'll make it 3/rest. What do you think?


By the way, I think you should clarify how you give them orders. Can they all have unique orders? Or are they like things summoned by animate dead, where your options are much more limited? Does it take a bonus action in combat to tell them something else, or do you just have to say it? Also, do they act on their own initiative or yours?

I haven't given thought to how this would work yet. I will work on this tomorrow.


Perfect! Thank you :D

You're most certainly welcome! :smallbiggrin:

[ji6]

I think this is a great idea! :smallbiggrin:

Sweet! I think that type of change will make it balanced at that point ^+^.


This is true. Hurl Through Hell is once per long rest. I think I'll make it 3/rest. What do you think?

I do not know, but I believe that sounds like a reasonable restriction so your DPR is not raised to the extreme and you cannot just use the specters to tank everything (because they are already amazing scouts too since they are incorporeal). Honestly, I think balancing this ability will probably just have to be determined through playing unless someone else has more experience with playing necromancers / specters. Because that is somewhat a weakness for me.


I haven't given thought to how this would work yet. I will work on this tomorrow.

Yeah, I am lazy so I would recommend trying to make it simple if you can, else it will be annoying to write and annoying to read. :P


You're most certainly welcome! :smallbiggrin:

^+^

[DracoKnight]

Sweet! I think that type of change will make it balanced at that point ^+^.



I do not know, but I believe that sounds like a reasonable restriction so your DPR is not raised to the extreme and you cannot just use the specters to tank everything (because they are already amazing scouts too since they are incorporeal). Honestly, I think balancing this ability will probably just have to be determined through playing unless someone else has more experience with playing necromancers / specters. Because that is somewhat a weakness for me.



Yeah, I am lazy so I would recommend trying to make it simple if you can, else it will be annoying to write and annoying to read. :P



^+^

Took care of all of these.

[Socratov]

don't forget that you can use a longbow with specialised slashing ammunition (which resembles a fanlike tip), so ranged is possible...

[ji6]

don't forget that you can use a longbow with specialised slashing ammunition (which resembles a fanlike tip), so ranged is possible...

Wait, that type of ammo really exists? That sounds super amazing and cool! Hell, if I used a bow, that sounds like an fun arrow to shoot!

[Socratov]

Wait, that type of ammo really exists? That sounds super amazing and cool! Hell, if I used a bow, that sounds like an fun arrow to shoot!

well, it used to in 3.5 somewhere (but then again, what wasn't) and I don't shy it can't in 5e, they were even thing in the dark ages. Just imagine a sharp
, broad tip like a halfmoon or a hunting arrow. I've even picked up blunts which have a ball at the end to deal bludgeoning. My DM ruled them as specialist ammo and so at 1,5 times the cost.

[DracoKnight]

I've added a downloadable PDF version of this Patron to the OP :smallbiggrin:

[RakiReborn]

Awesome Patron. The only thing that bothers me is that it is pretty clearly made for melee (PotB) only, but that was probably the intention. It also misses a bit of fluff (how you became resistant to necrotic or non-magical weapons for instance), but so do most of my homebrews xD
It is fun to see the different ways people make this patron. I have seen several already, and made one myself (its in my sig under homebrew subclasses), and most are either a bit or a lot different :P
Nice work!