Issues with character power level

[Mongobear]

At the start of my current campaign, thats been going on for about 8 months every other week, we all rolled stats using the age old method of 4d6 drop lowest. My party, there are 7 of us, all rolled a pretty balanced to good set of stats, however, when I rolled I got 18 17 17 14 14 10, which is unreasonably amazing. I came into the group having never played or even looked at/read the books yet, and immediately chose to be a (Variant) Human Barbarian using a Greatsword.

I set up my level 1 character as follows:

Str 18
Dex 18
Con 18
Int 14
Wis 14
Cha 10

Feat: Great Weapon Master

Weapons: Greatsword
Longbow

Armor: Unarmored Defense (AC 18 while naked)

Everything was fine at level 1 when we started off just fighting little stuff like Goblins. If I hit one, I pretty much one shot it, but thats normal across all D&D editions that I've played. When we got to level 2, and I got Reckless Attack, stuff really started getting crazy. Because of my super high AC from Unarmored Defense, I was almost always using GWM's -5/+10 on every attack, and just clobbersmash stuff if I connected, with very little detriment to my character, since stuff could barely hit me even at advantage.

Fast forward to level 3, I choose Berserker, because I'm dumb, still not quite grasping the rules on how 5e works and the action system yet. So now I can almost always get an extra attack every round, now I can clobbersmash stuff twice in a turn!

Level 4 comes, and I take a +2 to my Strength, because why the F not!? Im really starting to destroy things in a fight, my party can barely keep up with my damage output when Im Frenzy-ing, unless its our Evocation Wizard or Battle Master if he uses his Super Dice for damage instead of crowd control.

Level 5, I get my Extra Attack, ooh boy... Now things are just getting dumb. Literally every fight we get into, I run directly at the largest thing in the room, and blow it up in 2-3 rounds. My DM has started making encounters so large or including enemies so far outside our appropriate CR range that If I dont immediately kill off one of the bigger threats, or if I actually fail a save against Crowd Control, our party flounders until I recover and save them from getting eaten. Tactics have been warped from "everyone help everybody" to "Lets do what we can to buff the Barbarian!"

Level 6, woopdie-doo! decent crowd control immunity, but not much else on killing power. I also get a Vicious Greataxe from some big Orc Warboss guy we kill, so there is that.

Levels 7-8 I dont remember much, because it took place over the Halloween sessions which we did a special event and took multiple sessions to complete. When it was all said and done, we came out of it with enough XP to be midway through 8. At one point after we take down a rather large encounter in an abandoned Dwarf city, we find a Belt of Fire Giant Strength, guess who gets it? Yup, Im now rocking a 25 Strength.


__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ ______________________________________________


Heres where Im getting to my actual point of this post.

Over the past few sessions, since about level 6, I have been vastly out-performing the rest of my party, with possible exception of the Wizard, because Fireballs happen and I cant swing my Axe at 5+ enemies a turn. It has gotten so bad that after out last session this weekend, that DM actually made the statement "In the future, if I ever start a new campaign, I am flat-out banning the Barbarian class."

In an attempt to mediate the situation, I offered to reroll, or atleast re-specialize my character to a more balanced build, which he agreed to after I had to repeat that I didnt mind, since it was sort of ruining the campaign by causing such dangerous encounters that we shouldnt be winning. I completely rebuilt my character changing my equipment to match with the new choices, but still remaining the same general idea. I went for a TWF Totem Barbarian 6/Fighter 2 and swapped the GWM Feat for Dual Wielder. My weapons, a Vicious Greataxe and a +2 Greatsword, he let me swap to 1-handed versions, and I remained the exact same person from the earlier adventures. I took Elk Totem for levels 3 and 6, because there was a huge debate over Bear Totem's level 1 ability being way too strong, so now I am just really, really fast.

When I showed the DM the new character sheet, he still had doubts about how strong I was gonna be. I have an AC of 20, equal to our Paladin in Full Plate + Shield, 110 HP, and can deal (3d8+31) damage a round if all of my attacks hit, which, since I have a +11/+12 to hit and Reckless Attack, I most likely will. He still thinks I am going to be too strong, compared to the rest of the party, even after swapping my entire build around. I dont want this issue to go on unresolved forever, and I dont want to basically say that the problem isnt me, its that the rest of the group isnt doing as much as they could be doing, and made poor choices for dealing damage.

Is there anything I can do to remedy this situation? I love this group, and it is the most fun Ive ever had playing D&D, but I have this feeling that I have ruined the reputation of the Barbarian class to them forever, unintentionally since I really had no idea what I was doing when rolling up, I never saw the books until I showed up the first day to make my character.

Alternatively, is there no actual problem with anything I have done, and its actually the Barbarian class/5e thats made the huge disparity is character power? Granted our Paladin and Fighter both went Sword/Shield because theyre playing up the "Knight in Shining Armor" gimmick, and the others arent actually trying to be huge damage sources. But it could easily have been done with different choices or tactics.

Following is an abridged character sheet for how I look after respeccing to TWFing.


(Variant) Human Totem Warrior Barbarian 6/Fighter 2

Str (18) 25 (Belt of Fire Giant Strength)
Dex 18
Con 20
Int 14
Wis 14
Cha 10

Weapons: (MH) +1 Vicious Battleaxe (Adds +7 damage to critical hits) (OH) +2 Longsword

Armor: Unarmored Defense AC: 20 HP: 110

Feats: Dual Wielder

Totem: Elk (Level 3 - +15ft combat speed while Raging, Level 6 - Daily Travel speed doubled for self + allies)

[JakOfAllTirades]

It's not the class. It's the ability scores.

[mephnick]

It's not even the ability scores, it's the DM. If someone dealing damage is destroying your encounters you aren't building them very well.

If six other players, including some very good classes, can't handle their one barbarian going down, there's a hell of a lot more wrong with things than ability scores.

[Malifice]

Fast forward to level 3, I choose Berserker, because I'm dumb, still not quite grasping the rules on how 5e works and the action system yet. So now I can almost always get an extra attack every round, now I can clobbersmash stuff twice in a turn!

Firstly I echo the sentiment that your stats are making a big difference.

Secondly, how many encounters are you getting per adventuring day on average? As in how many encounters do you get between long rests (when your rage resets, and you lose a level of exhaustion)?

Sounds like your DM is not sticking to the 6-8 recomendation, and you're freely able to rage nova every single encounter.

[Laserlight]

I concur that at least some of it is your stats. You've got a high STR so you hit well and do lots of damage, a high AC so you don't get hit much, and high HP so you don't really care when you do take a hit. Those in combination mean you can play very aggressively--which is in character for a barb but also means you do more damage because you're not having to spend actions on defense.

Beyond that....part of it is probably the other players not utilizing their characters well. In the campaign I'm running, the DPR winner is not the barbarian, but the STR 8 monk with a finesse weapon.

[Finieous]

Didn't you also create these threads to talk about your barbarian?

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?471658-My-Barbarian-Am-I-Missing-Anything
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?472141-Which-build-would-be-the-best-for-DPR

My advice would be, if you really are concerned about party balance:

1. Nerf your ability scores down to 27 point buy.
2. Give the OP magic items to the less powerful martials in your party (unless they have their own OP magic items, I guess).
3. Stop trying to optimize a character that was already over-optimized by your ability scores.

If, on the other hand, you just want to chat about your uber barbarian, rock on. I don't blame you, he's uber. :smallbiggrin:

ETA: I hold the unpopular opinion that you didn't choose the wrong path. I think 3rd level bear and wolf totems are better than frenzy, but berserker is better at 6, 10 and 14. Bear damage resistance is probably a little worse than the Tough feat, though this is somewhat campaign dependent. I think it reads better than it plays, and frenzy is just the opposite.

[Dralnu]

You say you've never read the books but you also ended up with the best damage dealing class, picked variant human and took one of the single most powerful DPR feats, soooo I'm assuming you at least researched what you wanted to do beforehand and now realize that it's a bit too much.

There's many factors at play making this a problem.

First, the stats: this is why point buy is recommended over rolling. It's a big boost, simple as that.

Second, yes, barbarian is absolutely disgusting between levels 2-5 and never really drop off beyond that, though fighters start catching up around level 11 and pure spellcasters do too around that level due to picking up higher spell levels and having more spell slots.

I've seen the barbarian hog the spotlight and dominate groups over and over DM'ing for multiple different groups. Yes, they ARE that strong -- and your crazy stats make it moreso an issue.

Finally, your DM is being too generous with loot. It's a common mistake. He shouldn't be giving out +2 weapons that early -- ESPECIALLY not to the barbarian that is already outclassing others. That makes the problem even worse.

Go point buy. TWF Barbarian was a good idea, it's unoptimal. Tell the DM to give the other PCs better magic items to "balance" the silly loot he's been handing out.

Savvy DMs can overcome the Barbarian's strengths but it takes skill and not all DMs can.

[Mongobear]

Dont get me wrong. The DM is very good at what he does. However, because of the drastic differences in power level between myself and any other party member, the DM is forced to build encounters tailored to actually challenge my character, which in turn means that said monsters are near impossible for the rest of the party. In the time it takes my Barbarian to take down a Fire Giant, the rest of the group together might have managed to take down one focusing fire on a single target. The exception is the Evo Wizard, which can pack a hell of a wallop in some fights, especially AoE encounters, but no one has near the amount of single target DPR that I do.

That is the issues we are facing as a group, I have pretty much turned into a one-man wrecking crew that can solo fights meant for much higher level parties. Example, as a test, the DM had me go toe to toe with an Ancient Silver Dragon which is CR 23, to see how far I could get it down before dieing. This is unrealistic, since a smart dragon would strafe attack and not stand still to be melee'd to death, but thats irrelevant for this example. We rolled off, I went first, and immediately Raged, Reckless Attack/GWM -5/+10 for all of my attacks. The dragon Breath Weapon'd first round, after that it was just a slugfest of multi-attacks versus me making saves and eating his natural attacks. After the 6th round, I finally brought it down, while only having 11 hp left. At level 8 in an unrealistic scenario, I solo'd a CR 23 Dragon. Yes, luck/dice/tactics are a factor, but that shouldnt be possible.

As far as encounters per day, we usually average about 5, usually 2-3 randoms and then 2-3 "planned" in the destination of our adventure. But the planned ones have been a little "video gamey" as in, they are similar to games that have a "enemies come in waves" element, we will start off against a normal group, but then more and more start pouring through the entrances as reinforcements arrive and alarms are set. I usually have been throwing myself right into the center of their largest group and just go to town

I uaully try to only use Frenzy on "boss fights" or against encounters that are extremely tough. However, the DM made a house rule that exhaustion wears off faster than normal, allowing 1 level/rest to wear off, but no more than 1 level a day from short rests. Also, he changed the resting mechanics to make Short Rests only heal (1 HD + Con) hp and a long rest functions like a regular short rest does in the PHB. I havnt been abusing this, and only Frenzy on important fights, I realize this house rule is a bit in my favor, but I try not to make an actual effort to benefit from it more than I have to.

EDIT: Also, I have been trying not to hog the loot being dropped, but the party is actively choosing to give the gear to me because of how strong I am. Most of the equipment I have found was meant for the other martial characters, but they refused to take it because it would be more beneficial on me. The players arent the ones really making this issue a group discussion, it is private discussion between the DM and me after our sessions are over. The group thinks its hilarious when I crit something for 70 damage, or arm wrestle a Fire Giant and break his wrist (Nat 20 on a Str(Athletics) check). I have told the DM that I dont want to be the one doing this well, and want the group to be the powerful ones, since im the rookie, but he cant force them to play differently.

[Mongobear]

You say you've never read the books but you also ended up with the best damage dealing class, picked variant human and took one of the single most powerful DPR feats, soooo I'm assuming you at least researched what you wanted to do beforehand and now realize that it's a bit too much.


I came into the group having no idea what 5th edition did to the game. I was a long time 3.X player, and a group of friends started to convert their 1st edition game to 5th when it came out. When I showed up the 1st day I joined to roll up, I didnt know ANYTHING about 5e mechanics, but I do know how to optimize in 3rd edition. I didnt think that just taking Power Attack would be such a huge boost, plus if I really wanted to over optimize, I would have been a Half-Orc.

I didnt start to research stuff until a few weeks in when I first started to notice how strong I was compared to others, so I was becoming curious if that was normal, or if I just made a higher tier character than the rest of the group.

[bid]

It has gotten so bad that after out last session this weekend, that DM actually made the statement "In the future, if I ever start a new campaign, I am flat-out banning the Barbarian class."
Yeah, ban anything above 16/14/16. You can always put your overflow in a dump stat. If I ever allow rolling as a DM, I would give any point above 16 to less endowed characters.

Speaking of which: you should swap to Dex14 Int10 Cha18 to reduce your AC and pick a reasonable totem spirit like eagle.

And I suggest you pick sentinel, battlefield control will allow the other players to shine while limiting your excessive damage. DW is just another way to shutout the rest of the party.

[Foxhound438]

don't worry, the CR system in 5e is a bit low-spun. according to the books, a party of 4 level 5's should be at an equal match to a CR 5 monster, but really you can 1v1 them with most optimized builds. This is mostly because PC's have so many options by level 5 that they're a walking swiss army knife of exactly-the-thing-you-need-for-this-enemy type abilities. Barb's have the benefit of always being at an advantage against non-casting enemies, since they have damage resistance. the way for your dm to kill you is to send some kind of caster that has hold person and just enough support allies to auto-crit you to death after your rage turns off.

[SpawnOfMorbo]

It's not even the ability scores, it's the DM. If someone dealing damage is destroying your encounters you aren't building them very well.

If six other players, including some very good classes, can't handle their one barbarian going down, there's a hell of a lot more wrong with things than ability scores.

This, so much this.

Both the DM and the Players need to step up their game.

The DM needs to read up, and try to understand the lesson behind Tucker's Kobolds. :smallwink:

[Malifice]

Dont get me wrong. The DM is very good at what he does. However, because of the drastic differences in power level between myself and any other party member, the DM is forced to build encounters tailored to actually challenge my character, which in turn means that said monsters are near impossible for the rest of the party. In the time it takes my Barbarian to take down a Fire Giant, the rest of the group together might have managed to take down one focusing fire on a single target. The exception is the Evo Wizard, which can pack a hell of a wallop in some fights, especially AoE encounters, but no one has near the amount of single target DPR that I do.

That is the issues we are facing as a group, I have pretty much turned into a one-man wrecking crew that can solo fights meant for much higher level parties. Example, as a test, the DM had me go toe to toe with an Ancient Silver Dragon which is CR 23, to see how far I could get it down before dieing. This is unrealistic, since a smart dragon would strafe attack and not stand still to be melee'd to death, but thats irrelevant for this example. We rolled off, I went first, and immediately Raged, Reckless Attack/GWM -5/+10 for all of my attacks. The dragon Breath Weapon'd first round, after that it was just a slugfest of multi-attacks versus me making saves and eating his natural attacks. After the 6th round, I finally brought it down, while only having 11 hp left. At level 8 in an unrealistic scenario, I solo'd a CR 23 Dragon. Yes, luck/dice/tactics are a factor, but that shouldnt be possible.

As far as encounters per day, we usually average about 5, usually 2-3 randoms and then 2-3 "planned" in the destination of our adventure. But the planned ones have been a little "video gamey" as in, they are similar to games that have a "enemies come in waves" element, we will start off against a normal group, but then more and more start pouring through the entrances as reinforcements arrive and alarms are set. I usually have been throwing myself right into the center of their largest group and just go to town

I uaully try to only use Frenzy on "boss fights" or against encounters that are extremely tough. However, the DM made a house rule that exhaustion wears off faster than normal, allowing 1 level/rest to wear off, but no more than 1 level a day from short rests. Also, he changed the resting mechanics to make Short Rests only heal (1 HD + Con) hp and a long rest functions like a regular short rest does in the PHB. I havnt been abusing this, and only Frenzy on important fights, I realize this house rule is a bit in my favor, but I try not to make an actual effort to benefit from it more than I have to.

EDIT: Also, I have been trying not to hog the loot being dropped, but the party is actively choosing to give the gear to me because of how strong I am. Most of the equipment I have found was meant for the other martial characters, but they refused to take it because it would be more beneficial on me. The players arent the ones really making this issue a group discussion, it is private discussion between the DM and me after our sessions are over. The group thinks its hilarious when I crit something for 70 damage, or arm wrestle a Fire Giant and break his wrist (Nat 20 on a Str(Athletics) check). I have told the DM that I dont want to be the one doing this well, and want the group to be the powerful ones, since im the rookie, but he cant force them to play differently.

So.. slightly less than the expected number of encounters per day, and a house rule that lets you frenzy almost at will?

Coupled with your amazing stats, Im not surprised youre pwning encounters.

[Mongobear]

So.. slightly less than the expected number of encounters per day, and a house rule that lets you frenzy almost at will?

Coupled with your amazing stats, Im not surprised youre pwning encounters.

Less overall, yes. But they are overpopulated compared to a standard encounter. I dont think we have ever had an encounter that was below "Hard" or even "Deadly" on the xp chart in the DMG.

And the Exhaustion house rule is a major buff to me in a way, but I still cant lose more than 1 level in a 24 hour period, I just can use a short rest to drop a level if needed.

[RulesJD]

Less overall, yes. But they are overpopulated compared to a standard encounter. I dont think we have ever had an encounter that was below "Hard" or even "Deadly" on the xp chart in the DMG.

And the Exhaustion house rule is a major buff to me in a way, but I still cant lose more than 1 level in a 24 hour period, I just can use a short rest to drop a level if needed.

Which is a huge difference that you don't get credit for. It's literally a houserule that takes away the BIGGEST downside of your subclass, and you're passing over it like it's nothing.

1. Your DM sucks. You have a low save (Int/Wis/Cha). Even the most basic level spell casting NPCs will have Hold Person, Phantasmal Force, Hyptonic Pattern, Suggestion, et al. He's also doing a horrible job of getting you to waste rages through Illusions/having enemies hit and run. He's clearly not using elemental damage potential against you (ignore your resistance and rolling at advantage = definitely going to be hitting you). Or better yet, equip enemies with Bane. Good luck on those GWM strikes.

2. Your DM has no idea how to play this game if you beat an ancient silver dragon. Level 8 barb will have around 93hp. One failed paralyzing breath (you only have +4 to Con, no advantage, and you'll fail it 75% of the time) and you're toast from autocriticals due to paralyzed condition (oh and your rage will automatically end so you'll take full damage). Oh, and it can infinite polymorph into any beast (aka an Elephant/Giant Ape) to wear you down at the cost of 0hp.

3. Don't get excited because your DM doesn't play by the rules. Even 1 level of exhaustion is a massive penalty. How so? I have a beast with multiattack first grapple you. You'll either be at disadvantage (grapple is an ability check and thus 1 level makes you at disadvantage) or regular if you're raging. Next, shove you prone (again it's an ability check so disadvantage or regular at best). Every single melee enemy is now dropping advantaged attacks against you, you're stuck prone doing disadvantaged attacks.

[Malifice]

Less overall, yes. But they are overpopulated compared to a standard encounter. I dont think we have ever had an encounter that was below "Hard" or even "Deadly" on the xp chart in the DMG.

And the Exhaustion house rule is a major buff to me in a way, but I still cant lose more than 1 level in a 24 hour period, I just can use a short rest to drop a level if needed.

Assuming the standard 2ish short rests per day, in a 5 encoutner AD, youre getting around 3ish frenzies per day at no cost. Youre also free to rage in nearly every single ecounter.

As your DM I would stick to the frenzy as written, and instead of making the encounters harder (this just punishes the other characters) I would spring an extra 2 encounters over the AD (for a total of 7 on average).

You get 1 frenzy per day (and if you use it too early you will suck for the rest of the day at everything else) and half the encounters you cant use rage (making reckless attack super deadly).

Thats around the sweet spot for encounter balance.

[Toadkiller]

Nonsense. Edit: this is in response to OP

Ranged fast enemies, perhaps they fly. You can't get to them with your mad magic melee skills. Speaking of skills - the quest needs some you don't have. You get hit with a slow spell. The big bad guy disarms you.

There are a million ways to slow down a barbarian. Those are a few.

[Lonely Tylenol]

2. Your DM has no idea how to play this game if you beat an ancient silver dragon. Level 8 barb will have around 93hp. One failed paralyzing breath (you only have +4 to Con, no advantage, and you'll fail it 75% of the time) and you're toast from autocriticals due to paralyzed condition (oh and your rage will automatically end so you'll take full damage). Oh, and it can infinite polymorph into any beast (aka an Elephant/Giant Ape) to wear you down at the cost of 0hp.

It gets even simpler than that: once the Barbarian enters rage, the Dragon can just fly out of its range. At the end of the round, the Barbarian loses rage (it has not attacked anything). The Dragon uses its wingbeat legendary action to knock the Barbarian prone (the player can only save on a natural 20, since he's not proficient in Dex saving throws). Now, the Barbarian is exhausted (if Frenzy is used) and prone, if not also paralyzed. The Dragon descends upon him, pinning vs. disadvantage if he wants (at +10 to the check) and getting his full attack routine (plus legendary tail attack) at advantage, while the player has disadvantage on any responses.

If I had three stats that start above the maximum starting threshold (before racial ABIs) and a freebie +2 Greatsword and Belt of Fire Giant Strength by level 8, and the party was funneling all other gear and buff resources to me, and the DM specifically altered rest mechanics in a way that hurts everyone else in the party (long rests are short rests; short rests only grant a small, fixed amount of HP) and specifically helps me (short rests eliminate fatigue), and every monster's one and only strategy was "face tank the primary damage dealer's damage until death", I would probably outshine the party as a melee damage dealer... As a Frenzy Barbarian or as a Dragon Sorcerer. (You heard me! You're getting more + to hit and damage from the belt and sword alone than most players get at this level from proficiency + ability. A Sorcerer could swing the sword from the wrong end and hit harder than a Fighter at this point.)

You have been getting a free lunch from your DM and your party for 8 levels now, which is fine, but now your DM is unhappy about the consequences about that lunch. The solution is simple: refund the lunch. Drop your physical ability scores to 18-14-16 (18 from the level 4 ABI), +2 to whatever you are planning on doing with that level 8. Give the belt to the Paladin, and ask if the DM will let him retrain any ABIs he's used on Strength into Charisma instead (this will benefit everyone's saves). Already, you've dropped your to-hit, damage, and AC by 3 each, as well as all your physical saves and skills by a considerable margin (Strength by 3, Dexterity by 2, Constitution by 1). Ask the casters to cast buffs that benefit multiple members of the party at the same time, like Bless (for the Paladin). And finally, tell your DM to stop being so mindless with his NPCs. That Ancient Silver Dragon had genius-level Intelligence and sage-level Wisdom, Frightful Presence (DC21 Wis), 33% chance to refresh its avg. 67 cold damage (DC 24 Con) or paralyzing (DC 24 Con) breath, at-will polymorph, flight (at high speeds), legendary action CC, and 10-20 foot range on all its attacks, and it... Stayed within 5 feet of you and traded blows until death.

If you and your DM do these things, you could play the original character concept and still not be broken (you will still be strong because +2 Greatsword and also you're still a Barbarian, which means you're in the business of killin' [and business is good], but you won't end the lives of ancient dragons everywhere).

[Malifice]

It gets even simpler than that: once the Barbarian enters rage, the Dragon can just fly out of its range. At the end of the round, the Barbarian loses rage (it has not attacked anything). The Dragon uses its wingbeat legendary action to knock the Barbarian prone (the player can only save on a natural 20, since he's not proficient in Dex saving throws). Now, the Barbarian is exhausted (if Frenzy is used) and prone, if not also paralyzed. The Dragon descends upon him, pinning vs. disadvantage if he wants (at +10 to the check) and getting his full attack routine (plus legendary tail attack) at advantage, while the player has disadvantage on any responses.

If I had three stats that start above the maximum starting threshold (before racial ABIs) and a freebie +2 Greatsword and Belt of Fire Giant Strength by level 8, and the party was funneling all other gear and buff resources to me, and the DM specifically altered rest mechanics in a way that hurts everyone else in the party (long rests are short rests; short rests only grant a small, fixed amount of HP) and specifically helps me (short rests eliminate fatigue), and every monster's one and only strategy was "face tank the primary damage dealer's damage until death", I would probably outshine the party as a melee damage dealer... As a Frenzy Barbarian or as a Dragon Sorcerer. (You heard me! You're getting more + to hit and damage from the belt and sword alone than most players get at this level from proficiency + ability. A Sorcerer could swing the sword from the wrong end and hit harder than a Fighter at this point.)

You have been getting a free lunch from your DM and your party for 8 levels now, which is fine, but now your DM is unhappy about the consequences about that lunch. The solution is simple: refund the lunch. Drop your physical ability scores to 18-14-16 (18 from the level 4 ABI), +2 to whatever you are planning on doing with that level 8. Give the belt to the Paladin, and ask if the DM will let him retrain any ABIs he's used on Strength into Charisma instead (this will benefit everyone's saves). Already, you've dropped your to-hit, damage, and AC by 3 each, as well as all your physical saves and skills by a considerable margin (Strength by 3, Dexterity by 2, Constitution by 1). Ask the casters to cast buffs that benefit multiple members of the party at the same time, like Bless (for the Paladin). And finally, tell your DM to stop being so mindless with his NPCs. That Ancient Silver Dragon had genius-level Intelligence and sage-level Wisdom, Frightful Presence (DC21 Wis), 33% chance to refresh its avg. 67 cold damage (DC 24 Con) or paralyzing (DC 24 Con) breath, at-will polymorph, flight (at high speeds), legendary action CC, and 10-20 foot range on all its attacks, and it... Stayed within 5 feet of you and traded blows until death.

If you and your DM do these things, you could play the original character concept and still not be broken (you will still be strong because +2 Greatsword and also you're still a Barbarian, which means you're in the business of killin' [and business is good], but you won't end the lives of ancient dragons everywhere).

Quoted for truth.

Well said.

[Dralnu]

I really wouldn't be THAT harsh on the DM. The Barbarian class really does demand that you tune encounters specifically to compensate for them. Few, if any other classes demand such accommodations. I can attest that LMOP and Hoard, official modules, do not do this, as I've run both.

You can spin off numerous counters, like pack ranged flying enemies, target the Barb with Hold Persons etc, but fact remains that this must be done whereas other classes not so much. We wouldn't have this conversation about, say, an Evocation Wizard being too good -- its trivial to challenge them.

However.. The DM is indeed making things worse. Take away the exhaustion houserule. Switch to Point Buy, since the Barbarian especially makes too much good use of three insane stats. Redistribute the magic items and good god stop giving +2 weapons! Also he's playing dragons wrong, as others pointed out.

[RulesJD]

I really wouldn't be THAT harsh on the DM. The Barbarian class really does demand that you tune encounters specifically to compensate for them. Few, if any other classes demand such accommodations. I can attest that LMOP and Hoard, official modules, do not do this, as I've run both.

You can spin off numerous counters, like pack ranged flying enemies, target the Barb with Hold Persons etc, but fact remains that this must be done whereas other classes not so much. We wouldn't have this conversation about, say, an Evocation Wizard being too good -- its trivial to challenge them.

However.. The DM is indeed making things worse. Take away the exhaustion houserule. Switch to Point Buy, since the Barbarian especially makes too much good use of three insane stats. Redistribute the magic items and good god stop giving +2 weapons! Also he's playing dragons wrong, as others pointed out.

You only need to do that at lower levels. At higher (7+) you really don't much care about the barb anymore but rather the Evocation Wizard sculpting Fireballs willy nilly and shutting down your BBEG with counterspell. Then he learns Wall of Force/Animate Objects and your begging for the days of a stupidly simple to deal with barbarian.

[Mongobear]

I have mentioned the disparity in stats between myself and the rest of the party to him, but he hasnt really responded to that yet, rather choosing to go with "lets see how rebuilding 1 person works first" over making sweeping changes to multiple characters. I have shown him both the Standard Array, and the AL Point Buy system, but I dont know yet.

And yes, I know the tactics used by the Dragon were dumb, that was the point. The fact that a level 8 character could 1v1 a CR 23 creature, with a bunch of attacks and like 600 hp was the point. The fight wasnt meant to be an actual "youre fighting a dragon in its lair, at full capacity" exercise, it was meant to see how long I could last against more difficult opponents that were meant for my level.

As for dumb enemy tactics, or throwing spellcasters with CC, or archers, or any of the other myriad of possible speed bumps at me, He has been. I gain immunity to Frightened/Charm when Raging, I have Adv on Dex saves, and Im proficient in Str/Con, having Adv on Str when Raging. During almost every fight, I have both the Paladin and the Battlemaster duct taped to my ass, providing Protection fighting style and the Paladin Aura boosting saves by +4. Plus the rest of the party behind the front line throwing Fireballs and Arrows over our heads. My lowest save is a +4 Cha with the Aura, but I cant even think of any enemy youd encounter at this level with a Cha targeting attack, and then my Int/Wis are +6 with the aura. I must be lucky, because I havent failed a save against a spell caster since level 4. Also, enemies that could disable me, or throw magic into the mix usually are the first ones that we focus one, between two mages throwing Fireballs/Scorching Rays, two Archers lobbing a bajillion arrows, and our Paladin having Mage Killer, we have a pretty disruptive group for Mages to fight.

I agree on the "free lunch" line for the most part, but that wasnt my decision to start in the first place, I just went along with it because I had 6 people staring me down and telling me to take piled of gear we were finding. The +2 sword wasnt actually meant for our group, it was a plot device to send us to a neighboring city to deliver to a rich collector, and when we got to the delivery spot, assassins attacked the contact killing him while we were fighting them off. We botched all of our Investigation and Insight checks to find useful info on him(Natural 1s suck), so had literally zero leads on who to take the sword to, so we grabbed it and left the city. We have yet to return to our home city, or the one where the attack happened, I dont see me keeping it much longer, but I atleast have the Vicious Axe for if I lose the sword.

I have literally tried to give some of the loot back to people that actually need it, but they just wont take it. I had a 20 Str and we found a BoFGS, instead of giving it to the 16 Str Paladin or the 18 Str BM, they threw it to me after I told them I literally had no interest, because I get a 24 Strength at max level anyways.

[Flashy]

Just to clarify, your DM knows that magic items only go as high as +3 this edition, right? Like a +2 great sword isn't an introductory weapon, it's an item of significant power.

[Nu]

That is the issues we are facing as a group, I have pretty much turned into a one-man wrecking crew that can solo fights meant for much higher level parties. Example, as a test, the DM had me go toe to toe with an Ancient Silver Dragon which is CR 23, to see how far I could get it down before dieing. This is unrealistic, since a smart dragon would strafe attack and not stand still to be melee'd to death, but thats irrelevant for this example. We rolled off, I went first, and immediately Raged, Reckless Attack/GWM -5/+10 for all of my attacks. The dragon Breath Weapon'd first round, after that it was just a slugfest of multi-attacks versus me making saves and eating his natural attacks. After the 6th round, I finally brought it down, while only having 11 hp left. At level 8 in an unrealistic scenario, I solo'd a CR 23 Dragon. Yes, luck/dice/tactics are a factor, but that shouldnt be possible.

Lots of things are possible when you treat a monster as a blob of tofu.


As far as encounters per day, we usually average about 5, usually 2-3 randoms and then 2-3 "planned" in the destination of our adventure. But the planned ones have been a little "video gamey" as in, they are similar to games that have a "enemies come in waves" element, we will start off against a normal group, but then more and more start pouring through the entrances as reinforcements arrive and alarms are set. I usually have been throwing myself right into the center of their largest group and just go to town

I uaully try to only use Frenzy on "boss fights" or against encounters that are extremely tough. However, the DM made a house rule that exhaustion wears off faster than normal, allowing 1 level/rest to wear off, but no more than 1 level a day from short rests. Also, he changed the resting mechanics to make Short Rests only heal (1 HD + Con) hp and a long rest functions like a regular short rest does in the PHB. I havnt been abusing this, and only Frenzy on important fights, I realize this house rule is a bit in my favor, but I try not to make an actual effort to benefit from it more than I have to.

You may not be intentionally actively abusing this, but you cannot deny that the changes to resting and exhaustion favor your character and nerf down more "traditional" powerful builds, like full casters. Add in your very good stat rolls (why am I not surprised when a lot of stories like this come from tables that roll for stats?) and reasonable degree of charop (Variant Human + GWM), and it's no wonder things turned out the way they did.


Dont get me wrong. The DM is very good at what he does.

I'm not sure if he's as good as you might believe he is. I understand everyone has their own way of playing and running the game, but I'm convinced that the changes he has made are the reason he feels he "must" ban a core class, and it's not a fault of the game as it's written.

[Mongobear]

Just to clarify, your DM knows that magic items only go as high as +3 this edition, right? Like a +2 great sword isn't an introductory weapon, it's an item of significant power.

Yes, it wasnt meant as actual loot for us to keep. It was the result of a botched quest which we ended up making off with afterwards.

We were hired at level 5 or 6 as Armed escorts for delivering a plot device to send us to a neighboring city to deliver it to a rich collector, and when we got to the delivery spot, assassins attacked the contact killing him while we were fighting them off. Investigation/Insight botches happened, and so I grabbed the big shiny thing and left.

[Flashy]

So your DM is upset that you're too powerful when you're using an item he acknowledges is too powerful for you to have? It's definitely not just the sword: it's the crazy stats plus the rest house rules plus the belt plus the sword, but if he acknowledges that you have equipment beyond the norm I don't get the mass ban on a whole class.

[Mongobear]

So your DM is upset that you're too powerful when you're using an item he acknowledges is too powerful for you to have? It's definitely not just the sword: it's the crazy stats plus the rest house rules plus the belt plus the sword, but if he acknowledges that you have equipment beyond the norm I don't get the mass ban on a whole class.

Its been like this since I first made the character, I have literally one shot almost every enemy we met since level 2-3, or did enough damage to it that an arrow volley or a magic missile spell finishes it off. This got even worse when I hit 5 and got extra attack, double the kill potential. At one point, around level 5 or 6 we encountered a 9 headed Hydra plus a handful of Orcs that had "tamed it." While the entire party kept the Orcs busy, I solo'd it in 2 or 3 rounds, with one of the mages using Firebolt to keep the heads from regrowing.

[Mara]

IMO: If you roll stats, you shouldn't complain about balance.

It sounds like far far more than just that is going on, but its all the same pattern.

1. Do something that makes the game less balanced

2. Complain that your game isn't balanced

Caring about balance when you sabotaged it from the get go sounds like your groups is just trying to make itself suffer. If you can't realize that rolling for stats and caring about balance are mutually exclusive then everything else was bound to happen.

[RulesJD]

Its been like this since I first made the character, I have literally one shot almost every enemy we met since level 2-3, or did enough damage to it that an arrow volley or a magic missile spell finishes it off. This got even worse when I hit 5 and got extra attack, double the kill potential. At one point, around level 5 or 6 we encountered a 9 headed Hydra plus a handful of Orcs that had "tamed it." While the entire party kept the Orcs busy, I solo'd it in 2 or 3 rounds, with one of the mages using Firebolt to keep the heads from regrowing.

Please, listen. A raging Frenzy Barbarian is not overpowered. It is ONLY, and ONLY because your DM doesn't know how to counter what he's houseruled that you are able to do what you can. On any normal table, you'd get wrecked.

Bane to lower saves, Banishment/Phantasmal Force/Walls to split the party (bye bye +4 to saves), etc. The aura is only 10ft benefit, way to easy to counter. Being able to ignore the exhaustion system is laughably OP, as is a +2 sword. Also, you're a variant human, aka no natural darkvision. Start making fights in darkness and actually pay attention to the light rules.

You act that it's out of your DM hands to take the sword away from you. Oh, you got a weapon you weren't supposed to? The assassins come in the night and steal it away. No encounter or rolls, the DM just makes it happen. This isn't a result of you being a super good player or the class being super OP. It's a DM that doesn't know the system at all and is too afraid to deal with it.

[Malifice]

Yes, it wasnt meant as actual loot for us to keep. It was the result of a botched quest which we ended up making off with afterwards.

We were hired at level 5 or 6 as Armed escorts for delivering a plot device to send us to a neighboring city to deliver it to a rich collector, and when we got to the delivery spot, assassins attacked the contact killing him while we were fighting them off. Investigation/Insight botches happened, and so I grabbed the big shiny thing and left.

Who owns it exactly? Someone prepared to send assasins after it from the looks of it.

If I was DM... you wouldnt dare run off with it, and youd be more than aware that... consequences would follow if you did.

[Flashy]

Also, who ships a +2 magic item without clear instructions about who you're delivering it to? Like, no contingency plan if the one guy who knows what it's for dies? No secondary instructions for the messengers or alternate contacts or return address or anything?

What else were they supposed to do but run off with it? They had nothing but dead ends. As nice as it is to say that it wasn't intended for the party the DM still gave it to them.

[Mongobear]

Who owns it exactly? Someone prepared to send assasins after it from the looks of it.

If I was DM... you wouldnt dare run off with it, and youd be more than aware that... consequences would follow if you did.

We assume the merchant guy that hired us. But is the Chaos of the fight, he disappeared and couldnt find him. We probably shouldnt have just made off with it, but botches happened, and I mean Nat 1s, not just failed DCs, so we were literally left clueless.

Also, we kinda disappeared from civilization immediately afterwards, getting lost in an underground cave system, so unless the DM had stuff tailing us since the fight, I dont really know if anyone except ourselves know where we are.

[Mongobear]

Also, who ships a +2 magic item without clear instructions about who you're delivering it to? Like, no contingency plan if the one guy who knows what it's for dies? No secondary instructions for the messengers or alternate contacts or return address or anything?

What else were they supposed to do but run off with it? They had nothing but dead ends. As nice as it is to say that it wasn't intended for the party the DM still gave it to them.

We were escorting the seller to a city a few days away. When we got to the destination and the business transaction started, a group of a dozen cloaked assassins surrounded us and attacked everyone. The 'Buyer' was slain almost immediately, and we managed to finish of most of the Assassins before a handful retreated. The 'Seller' disappeared in the chaos of the fight, and we couldnt find him after the battle was over. The Sword was laying in its case and whatnot under the dead guy, and we gathered up as we tried to identify him or find some useful info. Literally everyone either botched the roll, or rolled low enough to not find anything of note. So I grabbed to sword, strapped it to my back and went back to the Inn. The next day we wandered outside on an errand and discovered some old caves in the mountains, getting lost in the labyrinthine complex. Three weeks later, we emerged from the mountains in a desert that no one knows where on the continent we are.

[Malifice]

We assume the merchant guy that hired us. But is the Chaos of the fight, he disappeared and couldnt find him. We probably shouldnt have just made off with it, but botches happened, and I mean Nat 1s, not just failed DCs, so we were literally left clueless.

Also, we kinda disappeared from civilization immediately afterwards, getting lost in an underground cave system, so unless the DM had stuff tailing us since the fight, I dont really know if anyone except ourselves know where we are.

Magic. You immune to scrying?

[Flashy]

The 'Buyer' was slain almost immediately, and we managed to finish of most of the Assassins before a handful retreated. The 'Seller' disappeared in the chaos of the fight, and we couldnt find him after the battle was over. The Sword was laying in its case and whatnot under the dead guy, and we gathered up as we tried to identify him or find some useful info. Literally everyone either botched the roll, or rolled low enough to not find anything of note.

So your DM gave it to you. Like, to be clear he...

1. Killed the buyer almost instantly.
2. Had the original owner run away, leaving no trace behind.
3. Provided a sword without any obvious identifying clues, return addresses, or other material you wouldn't have to succeed on an apparently arbitrarily high investigate roll to notice (there were seven of you, presumably someone rolled above a five?).

He gave you a +2 sword, everything else is just arguing about the wrapping paper.

[Mongobear]

So your DM gave it to you. Like, to be clear he...

1. Killed the buyer almost instantly.
2. Had the original owner run away, leaving no trace behind.
3. Provided a sword without any obvious identifying clues, return addresses, or other material you wouldn't have to succeed on an apparently arbitrarily high investigate roll to notice (there were seven of you, presumably someone rolled above a five?).


Or, a much more accurate theory on what went down:

1. Buyer was someone relatively important, but was buying an item incognito. None of us knew anything about them, or the celebrity of anyone in the city, as we were all foreigners.
2. The original "owner" could have very well been in league with the Assassins, and the whole ploy was a set-up to get them out in the open. Pretty sure that scenario is pretty common in TV and Movies pretty much everywhere.
3. Provided a plot MacGuffin that just happened to be a +2 Greatsword. All we knew at the time was that it was worth more money than we had, and that it was a Greatsword, I only know its +2 becuase the DM told me in a private note to add +2 to attacks/damage when using it, I assume it may very well be even more than that.

Every single one of us rolled an Investigation check, the two people with proficiency both botched with Nat 1s. The Mage with a decent Int only rolled like a 3 or a 4, and the rest of us didnt roll higher than a 12 or 13. The most we got was "the man looks like he is well groomed, and rather high-born, but you find no distinguishing marks or iconography on his person." We had no leads to go on because of such terrible rolls, that we pretty much just wanted to get the F out of Dodge so we dont get stuck with murdering the guy, I just happened to be the one closest to where the sword was, and took it as my own, because its a Greatsword and it was shiny.



He gave you a +2 sword, everything else is just arguing about the wrapping paper.


He introduced a plot MacGuffin and then botched rolls happened, causing us to U-turn away from the relevant plot with said MacGuffin still in our possession. There is no arguement about wrapping paper if you look at it from outside the context of "A leads to B, therefore hes bad."

[Theodoxus]

Why would you Frenzy when you have GWM? Frenzy is useful if you're fighting a solo critter, but anytime you're facing more than one thing, you'll be getting free bonus attacks from GWM from crits and kills. I made the mistake of going Berserker with a polearm master... that's a guaranteed bonus attack every round - I could Frenzy to boost the damage dice from a d4 to a d10... but I lived with the consequences of my choice.

Honestly, I don't really see the boost others are to your Exhaustion. Your DM moved it from a Long Rest to a Short Rest, but capped it at once per day. That's still a max of 1 Frenzy per day... just changes where you get your exhaustion back - near the beginning or at the end of the AD. Sure, it allows for a potential double boss fight... but you're still boned until the next day, and then waiting for a short rest after your long rest (which honestly gets weird to track, and ends up making no sense... You fight a boss, first encounter, Frenzy, win. You nap, clearing the Exhaustion. You fight a few more battles, take a breather to eat lunch. In the afternoon, have another boss fight, decide to Frenzy, win. You do some RP stuff, camp for the night, still exhausted. Wake up, exhausted, and decide to immediately take a short rest to clear the exhaustion? -weird.)

I'd never ban a class over houserules. I'd remove the rules, play RAW, check out if it's still OP and go from there.

I will say, your tale is exactly the reason, why on the few occasions our table rolls stats, everyone uses the same set of rolls - they decide as a group which set they prefer (sometimes 2 18's doesn't offset that 5 and 9...) and everyone uses that set. A player has the option of using their own set (I really need that 20 Str and Con on my dwarf barbarian, man! yeah, hit me with those Int and Cha saves, biotch!) but don't get to complain if they're slightly less optimal.

In the end, the DM made the bed he's currently lying in. Telling you you're having wrongbadfun because of his decisions is pretty crappy.

[Flashy]

Leaving characters with an item they have no way to return is functionally no different from giving them the item. Like, whether or not the rolls were botched your DM handed your group a +2 weapon, because he didn't give you anything else you could do. It's sort of silly to then complain about the power level it contributed to, but I think I'm being too fixated on the sword, so I'll drop it.

To answer your original question the build you proposed should help reduce the inequalities, but won't eliminate the underlying balance problems you're dealing with because it's still packing a ton of magic items the system isn't really balanced around at 8th level. An 8th level character with 25 str and a +2 longsword will still hit an ancient silver dragon on a 10 or higher, you'll still be resistant to physical damage while raging, and your outrageously high dex and con scores mean you've still got the AC of fullplate + shield without any of the disadvantages. What are you planning for your 9th level? If it's Fighter 3 for the Champion archetype, to score off that +7 damage axe with a crit fishing build, your DM is just going to ban champion fighter for being OP because again it's comboing a reasonable class with over the top magic items.

[Mongobear]

Leaving characters with an item they have no way to return is functionally no different from giving them the item. Like, whether or not the rolls were botched your DM handed your group a +2 weapon, because he didn't give you anything else you could do. It's sort of silly to then complain about the power level it contributed to, but I think I'm being too fixated on the sword, so I'll drop it.

To answer your original question the build you proposed should help reduce the inequalities, but won't eliminate the underlying balance problems you're dealing with because it's still packing a ton of magic items the system isn't really balanced around at 8th level. An 8th level character with 25 str and a +2 longsword will still hit an ancient silver dragon on a 10 or higher, you'll still be resistant to physical damage while raging, and your outrageously high dex and con scores mean you've still got the AC of fullplate + shield without any of the disadvantages. What are you planning for your 9th level? If it's Fighter 3 for the Champion archetype, to score off that +7 damage axe with a crit fishing build, your DM is just going to ban champion fighter for being OP because again it's comboing a reasonable class with over the top magic items.

That is my plan currently, get to Fighter (Champion) 3 for Imp Crit, then finish out with Barbarian until the campaign is over.

Since making this topic earlier yesterday, the DM has been made aware of a lot of the underlying issues being discussed in this thread, as well as having been shown the massive inequality some of the characters have compared to myself. I believe he is going to make some changes soon, before we continue on through the adventure, most likely having us rebuild using a point buy system, as potentially re-distributing much of the magic items we have gotten. He has mentioned that at most the Belt will become Hill Giant, the weapons will be lowered to a maximum of +1, and various other fixes. He just has to take audit of everything we have and modify it, as well as figure out how to do such a large overhaul.

But, he doesnt want to just do a massive "you cant have this, or this, or this, oh and everyone lower all your stats by 4 too!" so he wants to try and find something to compensate us for having lost the old power level. He mentioned a free level, extra points for point buy, or a free Feat at level 1, but he hasnt decided yet.

Hopefully the future of the group will be much better without such an unhealthy gap between the members

[Corran]

Just play a cleric dude. No one will complain that you are healing too much.
Also let them have no dpr, since they are so eager about it. See how they like it. I suspect a TPK (since I get the impression that the DM is really really bad at setting up encounters).

[Submortimer]

As for dumb enemy tactics, or throwing spellcasters with CC, or archers, or any of the other myriad of possible speed bumps at me, He has been. I gain immunity to Frightened/Charm when Raging, I have Adv on Dex saves, and Im proficient in Str/Con, having Adv on Str when Raging. During almost every fight, I have both the Paladin and the Battlemaster duct taped to my ass, providing Protection fighting style and the Paladin Aura boosting saves by +4. Plus the rest of the party behind the front line throwing Fireballs and Arrows over our heads. My lowest save is a +4 Cha with the Aura, but I cant even think of any enemy youd encounter at this level with a Cha targeting attack, and then my Int/Wis are +6 with the aura. I must be lucky, because I havent failed a save against a spell caster since level 4. Also, enemies that could disable me, or throw magic into the mix usually are the first ones that we focus one, between two mages throwing Fireballs/Scorching Rays, two Archers lobbing a bajillion arrows, and our Paladin having Mage Killer, we have a pretty disruptive group for Mages to fight.


So, what you're saying is that there's actually no problem at all.

Hear me out: the party is using you as their wrecking ball. who cares if you score the killing blow on every major bad guy: the rest of the group is using their abilities to take out enemies you can't face, protect you from effects you can't handle, and then guiding you lie the Not-so-Smart bomb that you are right into the BBEG's face.

You may think you're outshining the party; what you're failing to realize is that the rest of the group has a big ol can of Brasso and is using it on you every chance they get.

[endur]

Any melee character with your stats and your magic items could do comparable damage. It doesn't have to be a barbarian, fighter or paladin could be comparable with GWM, belt of fire giant strength, etc. A Monk with those stats and magic items would be a terror.

[zeek0]

By the nature of 5e, I'd say that even a good DM would have difficulty handling those ability scores.

Your initial stats reflect 73 point buy.

To get your stats after standard array (15 14 13 12 10 8) your would have to get 8 Ability Score Improvements, more than a fighter gets at level 20. This isn't even considering your feats.

And you aren't a spellcaster. Your damage is determined purely by your stats, plus class abilities - Extra Attack having the largest effect by a mile. Once you have that...

You are like a level 20 character with a few less class abilities.

Getting outlier stat blocks - like yours - in 5e is huge. It means much more than in previous editions because of bounded accuracy. That is the reason why I only allow point buy at my table - it feels much more artificial but there is not discrepancy between characters, and outliers are impossible.

Yes, your DM made some bad calls - but they were exacerbated by your broken character.

[darkrose50]

I ran a D&D 3.0 game with 4D6 keep the best three. One character ended up with a crazy good set of attributes. Eventually we let everyone advance their characters to the point-buy equivalent.

[Zman]

Are you following the rules for Exhaustion properly? You shouldn't be Frenzying more than once a long rest.

This is a reason I use point buy or an array. Your stats make things harder to balance.

Your DM giving such a powerful magic item at such a low level is problematic as well. Though, if he is using multiple encounters per day and creating balanced encounters it should still be manageable.

[vostyg]

Any melee character with your stats and your magic items could do comparable damage. It doesn't have to be a barbarian, fighter or paladin could be comparable with GWM, belt of fire giant strength, etc.

Not true. Barbarians effectively have at-will advantage thanks to Reckless attack, which makes it much easier for them to swallow the -5 penalty to attack rolls from GWM and still connect on a regular basis. Paladins and Fighters can do comparable damage by expending limited resources, but cannot keep up with Barbarian damage output at steady state. Fighters catch up and even surpass Barbarians starting at level 11, but most campaigns fizzle out by then if the WOTC polls are to be believed. Combined with damage resistance and the highest HP in the game, barbarians are the absolute kings of melee before level 11, especially with the right feat choices (i.e. GWM + Polearm Master).

Their biggest weakness is that they tend to have fairly pathetic mental stats, which renders them extremely vulnerable to mind control effects. Berserker Barbarians are less susceptible thanks to Mindless Rage starting at 6th level. Barbarians in general benefit greatly from the presence of a fellow party member who can buff their mental saves (e.g. Paladin or Cleric with the bless spell, Paladin aura, etc.). Nevertheless, a single dominate person or suggestion spell can turn a cakewalk encounter into a nightmare for the party who is suddenly faced with the prospect of taking down their own Barbarian buddy.

Another weakness is that they generally either suck or are decidedly average at ranged combat.

Barbarians are also vulnerable to losing their rage. Anything which denies them the ability to make an attack for an entire round will also pull them out of their rage. Any DM with a bit of imagination should have no problem exploiting this weakness at least occasionally. Barbarians are not nearly as formidable when they run out of rages, so games with a 5-minute workday will greatly favor Barbarians.

Barbarians are fairly MAD in that several of their features key off of their STR, DEX, and CON stats. Adhering to a strict point-buy helps keep Barbarians balanced by forcing some tough choices in terms of how they allocate their precious ASI's. Giving out stat enhancing items such as Amulets of Health or Belts of Giant Strength is a tremendous boon to any class that struggles with MAD, and can be unbalancing relative to classes that are SAD. Giving out magic weapons with high bonuses generally has a similar effect.

[McNinja]

It is entirely the responsibility of the DM to adjust the level of the encouters based on previous player performance.

My players are hella powerful (the monk has an AC of 23) and so because of that the power level of the creature they fight goes up a little. They absolutely facerolled an encouter I thought would be hard, so I had them fight a Wraith with AC 20, double the health, and 3 legenday actions (vampiric touch, harm, and the wraith life drain ability that did double damage) and that gave them a bit of trouble and nearly sent my character to the grave. Good thing they have to fight four more of them :D

Also, I personally would have simply had the players find one of those stat-increasing tomes/manuals. That's the easiest solution if the DM wants to even out the power.

[Vogonjeltz]

Or, a much more accurate theory on what went down:

1. Buyer was someone relatively important, but was buying an item incognito. None of us knew anything about them, or the celebrity of anyone in the city, as we were all foreigners.
2. The original "owner" could have very well been in league with the Assassins, and the whole ploy was a set-up to get them out in the open. Pretty sure that scenario is pretty common in TV and Movies pretty much everywhere.
3. Provided a plot MacGuffin that just happened to be a +2 Greatsword. All we knew at the time was that it was worth more money than we had, and that it was a Greatsword, I only know its +2 becuase the DM told me in a private note to add +2 to attacks/damage when using it, I assume it may very well be even more than that.

Every single one of us rolled an Investigation check, the two people with proficiency both botched with Nat 1s. The Mage with a decent Int only rolled like a 3 or a 4, and the rest of us didnt roll higher than a 12 or 13. The most we got was "the man looks like he is well groomed, and rather high-born, but you find no distinguishing marks or iconography on his person." We had no leads to go on because of such terrible rolls, that we pretty much just wanted to get the F out of Dodge so we dont get stuck with murdering the guy, I just happened to be the one closest to where the sword was, and took it as my own, because its a Greatsword and it was shiny.

1's don't mean automatic failure in 5th edition.

Let's see:

1) Rolled stats
2) Your DM has thrown incredibly powerful magic items at you the entire game it looks like (Vicious Greataxe, +2 Greatsword, Belt of Fire Giant Strength!) and
3) house-ruled away things like Exhaustion which provide a crucial limiting factor for the otherwise major power increase of Frenzy. Being able to attack twice with a two-handed or heavy weapon in one round by level 3 (2 levels sooner than anyone else) and 3 times by level 5 (6 levels before a Fighter!) and always at advantage thanks to Reckless Attack.

Yeah...

Your DM is literally the architect of their own frustration.

[GlenSmash!]

Barbarian Is a really fun class. It would be a shame to ban it. I personally don't think there's ever a reason for the Ban-Hammer, but I can see your DM is frustrated. My recommendation? Build a support Barbarian. Go wolf totem at 3 and let the other Melee damagers in your party shine. Try shoving things, knocking them prone, grappling them. Heck Grab Tavern brawler and ignore those powerful weapons. Make part of you're character's backstory that he prefers to punch stuff, and will only draw his weapon in dire situations. With those stat's it will be hard to build a bad barbarian, which is all the more reason to try and do it!

[endur]

Not true. Barbarians effectively have at-will advantage thanks to Reckless attack, which makes it much easier for them to swallow the -5 penalty to attack rolls from GWM and still connect on a regular basis. Paladins and Fighters can do comparable damage by expending limited resources, but cannot keep up with Barbarian damage output at steady state. Fighters catch up and even surpass Barbarians starting at level 11, but most campaigns fizzle out by then if the WOTC polls are to be believed. Combined with damage resistance and the highest HP in the game, barbarians are the absolute kings of melee before level 11, especially with the right feat choices (i.e. GWM + Polearm Master).

I mostly agree with you. However, Paladins are also MAD, so they also benefit from extreme stats as much as the barbarian. And you yourself point out that Fighters surpass barbarians at higher levels. So I still think any of these classes could be overpowering with a girdle of fire giant strength, a magic weapon, and awesome stats.

[TrollCapAmerica]

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[Mongobear]

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{Scrubbed} Just because the AL exists and 90% of the world uses point buy, doesnt mean that everyone else is required to by some arbitrary law. Wacky stuff happens and bad rulings of unfair judgements are made. This thread just got way off-topic in the first place, which is why I havent responded in a few days.

I started off asking if Barbarian happened to be particularly powerful if a high stat array, and instead it devolved into personal attacks at the guy DMing the whole thing, based off of next to no information besides my own personal recollections of a handful of the sessions.

EDIT: Its all pretty much pointless now anyways. We got thr group together to discuss the problems and have decided to rebalance the whole group using point-buy and redistributing loot/nerfing some of the powerful items. He nerfed the BoFGS down to Hill Giant, and my weapons are just +1 now. Additionally he let us "rebuild" our characters' ASI/Feat selections since our stats are going to be much lower, so now were not all ungodly powerful for our level, and he has also stopped throwing encounters at us that rate at 2x or high the xp threshold of Deadly just to challenge us.

[BW022]

I don't think your DM is that great if he couldn't see this coming or that he things that the class is the issue. Ability stats have a huge effect in the game and having massive stats over other party members is pretty much a recipe for balance and challenge issues. You would have dominated others PCs no matter what class you played.

Given the situation, as the DM... I would merely talk with the players and ask to end the campaign and start another -- using a point-buy system so this isn't an issue in the future. No need to compound a mistake and work like a dog trying to keep balance when you could simply reset the campaign and spend your time playing something where this is far less of an issue.

Next, ask if you would be willing to switch out the character for a new one using a point-buy closer to that of the party average.

If you really don't want these... then I would talk with you as a player and see if you can't come up with an in-game reason to seriously nerf your character. Nail you with a geas which prevents you from drawing blood, give you a cursed weapon which causes you damage each time you hit, give you a disease which subtracts 2 from all your physical abilities. It might be fun for a few months working on a quest/plotline to get ride of the geas, item, or disease.

If you really aren't open to this... then I would do a far better job at tailoring the campaign to negate the imbalance. Since you are a combat-heavy character, I'd start by halving (or more) the number of combats. Alter or stop using pre-made modules. Add more diplomatic encounters, traps, puzzles, wilderness travel, etc. A mystery, helping a group of settlers build a small community, a noble intrigue plot, stealth missions, etc. Roleplaying, success, and contributing to the group would be far less combat-oriented or rely on straight rolling.

For the few combats I would use... I'd include things which don't play on your strengths. Use intelligent enemies who know your strengths and weaknesses. You are powerful in melee... folks would generally avoid it. Attack from trees, flying, defensive walls, etc. Other party members would likely do better in ranged combat. Nail you with spells, fight the party in the dark (where you are equally at a disadvantage or more if you have non-humans with low-light), charm folks to attack you such that you can't just kill them, set you up to waste rages (and flee and come back later), lead you into traps, etc.

[Mongobear]

I don't think your DM is that great if he couldn't see this coming or that he things that the class is the issue. Ability stats have a huge effect in the game and having massive stats over other party members is pretty much a recipe for balance and challenge issues. You would have dominated others PCs no matter what class you played.


We both kind of saw me being powerful when I rolled him up, but neither of us expected me to be able to functionally negate the GWM -5 penalty with Reckless Attacks. This was the first Barbarian anyone has ever made in his game, so he might have just not quite understood what they were capable of. I didnt realise the differences between 5e and 3.X coming in, so when I saw the Proficiency bonus, and how "to hits" were calculated, I was thinking id never hit anything, because I was running off of 3.X's AC system, I didnt know what Bounded Accuracy meant.



Given the situation, as the DM... I would merely talk with the players and ask to end the campaign and start another -- using a point-buy system so this isn't an issue in the future. No need to compound a mistake and work like a dog trying to keep balance when you could simply reset the campaign and spend your time playing something where this is far less of an issue.

Next, ask if you would be willing to switch out the character for a new one using a point-buy closer to that of the party average.


Ending the campaign, or hitting a soft reset was brought up, but were rather deep into whatever story is being cooked up right now, and were basically filling in the shoes of Frodo/Sam in LotR right now, carrying a major plot MagGuffin to an ancient ruin in order to destroy it.

When this all first arose as far as me being so powerful, I was the first to offer rerolling, or atleast converting my stats to point buy, but after he looked over things himself and had some input from the whole group, he pretty much caught on the the existence of the MAJOR power spike we have with rolled stats compared to point buy, so he is having us rebuild ourslves with PB and refunding ASI/Feat choices.



If you really don't want these... then I would talk with you as a player and see if you can't come up with an in-game reason to seriously nerf your character. Nail you with a geas which prevents you from drawing blood, give you a cursed weapon which causes you damage each time you hit, give you a disease which subtracts 2 from all your physical abilities. It might be fun for a few months working on a quest/plotline to get ride of the geas, item, or disease.


I have already offered this as well, my original plan was to just swap to Totem and use TWFing instead of Great Weapons. I would be less crazy burst DPS that way, and would have style points for actually TWFing.



If you really aren't open to this... then I would do a far better job at tailoring the campaign to negate the imbalance. Since you are a combat-heavy character, I'd start by halving (or more) the number of combats. Alter or stop using pre-made modules. Add more diplomatic encounters, traps, puzzles, wilderness travel, etc. A mystery, helping a group of settlers build a small community, a noble intrigue plot, stealth missions, etc. Roleplaying, success, and contributing to the group would be far less combat-oriented or rely on straight rolling.


The encounters already were supposed to have been tailored to offer actual challenges to my Barbarian, as well as the whole party, however because I had such a huge imbalance of stats, I was pretty much making every save, or just headbutting the Walls into rubble. Hopefully, now that were more balanced, and all on equal footing, the power will be relative with everyone being more equal.



For the few combats I would use... I'd include things which don't play on your strengths. Use intelligent enemies who know your strengths and weaknesses. You are powerful in melee... folks would generally avoid it. Attack from trees, flying, defensive walls, etc. Other party members would likely do better in ranged combat. Nail you with spells, fight the party in the dark (where you are equally at a disadvantage or more if you have non-humans with low-light), charm folks to attack you such that you can't just kill them, set you up to waste rages (and flee and come back later), lead you into traps, etc.


See above. Plus, just because I was built around physical perfection doesnt mean I was brain-dead, roleplay/noncombat enounters were just as much about actual conversation and interaction, usually with full in-character conversations, I tended to just do an Arnold Schwarzeneggar impersonation with my responses, and generally acted rather simple.

[bid]

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I must admit the defensive side of it was great. So many layers of creamy bliss added!

[MaxWilson]

I don't think your DM is that great if he couldn't see this coming or that he things that the class is the issue. Ability stats have a huge effect in the game and having massive stats over other party members is pretty much a recipe for balance and challenge issues. You would have dominated others PCs no matter what class you played.

I'm afraid I don't share this viewpoint at all. There are a number of ways to play a low- or regular-stats character in a way that is competitive with a high-stats barbarian, so that they both contribute usefully to the party instead of getting dominated. Moon Druid is an obvious choice (not just for Wildshape--spells are a big part of it too), Necromancer works too, Sharpshooter Ranger or Fighter works, Rogue works, even a Sorlock can work out if you're willing to not be neurotic about maximizing DPR by level 8.

It sounds like the party is just fine using the barbarian as everyone's favorite weapon and the main combat protagonist, so to speak, but the player is uncomfortable with the situation and hasn't yet made it known to the other players that he wants them to stop spotlighting him.

==================================================


The encounters already were supposed to have been tailored to offer actual challenges to my Barbarian, as well as the whole party, however because I had such a huge imbalance of stats, I was pretty much making every save, or just headbutting the Walls into rubble. Hopefully, now that were more balanced, and all on equal footing, the power will be relative with everyone being more equal.

They obviously weren't tailored very skillfully, then. Easy example: use a group of ranged-capable enemies like hobgoblins in an open space, e.g. surrounding you as you emerge from a tunnel into a forest clearing 250' across. Whichever hobgoblin is closest to the Barbarian can Dodge to counteract Reckless Attack while the others shoot him with Martial Advantage and advantage (because Reckless Attack). Even if the Barbarian kills one of the hobgoblins, the next one is probably more than 40' away (especially if they've maneuvering during combat) so you'll waste a round Dashing. Even worse for the Barbarian would be if there's a few enemy Fire Mephits mixed in with the hobgoblins to Heat Metal on the Barbarian so he tosses away his weapon, and/or some caltrops scattered around to prevent you from getting to the hobgoblins easily.

"Making every save" by virtue of lucky rolls is just that: luck. Has nothing to do with stats or game balance or anything. If you always roll 16+ on your Wisdom saves against Hold Person, that isn't a balance problem, it's a fluke.

[Misery Esquire]

We both kind of saw me being powerful when I rolled him up, but neither of us expected me to be able to functionally negate the GWM -5 penalty with Reckless Attacks. This was the first Barbarian anyone has ever made in his game, so he might have just not quite understood what they were capable of. I didnt realise the differences between 5e and 3.X coming in, so when I saw the Proficiency bonus, and how "to hits" were calculated, I was thinking id never hit anything, because I was running off of 3.X's AC system, I didnt know what Bounded Accuracy meant.

Alright, let me start with something positive and entirely on the side on you & [DM Here] ;

He probably is good at what he does. People don't really have a foothold to claim against that. You never said that he was an amazing rules purveyor and game-mechanical genius. He can still tell an excellent story, or involve everyone, or have a lot of fun, while being good enough at the rules to utilise them for play. And honestly, the fun is the important bit.

But - and it is truly bemusing and hilarious to say this about a D&D edition, seeing as it always seems like the developers who had no idea - you (both) have decided to muck about with the workings of a system you don't have a complete understanding of yet. That there were unforeseen consequences is more or less a given. :smalltongue:

[Mongobear]

But - and it is truly bemusing and hilarious to say this about a D&D edition, seeing as it always seems like the developers who had no idea - you (both) have decided to muck about with the workings of a system you don't have a complete understanding of yet. That there were unforeseen consequences is more or less a given. :smalltongue:


I think I understand what youre saying, but let me clarify, just to be sure...

Do you mean to say that, even though the synergy developed by WotC with a Barbarian and Reckless Attacks/Great Weapon Master may in-fact be intentional, or even a slight oversight, but we both sort of stumbled upon it by happenstance, and now thats what's causing the feeling of Power Spiking?

If so, I can kind of see that. Originally, this campaign started off in 1st Edition AD&D, right before 5E came out. When it was finally released, the group decided together to get the books and update everyone to the newer system, making changes where appropriate, to accommodate class differences, or style changes. For the most part, it was a 1:1 transfer, with minor tweaks where applicable, many of the members of the group's original run kept the same characters, modifying stats to account for the new racial bonuses.

They played a for few sessions before I joined, rolling up this Barbarian. I came from 3.X where its entirely about optimizing as best you can, especially melee classes, so I assumed that everything was the same still, with Mages being kings. I didn't know anything about the rules systems, and when I showed up about an hour early to create this guy, I quickly rifled through the classes and Feats section, and just automatically settled with a 2Hander Barbarian with Power Attack, which is a pretty generic build by 3.X standards. Stat rolls happened, giving me a mega-strong array, and I just put it all into physical stats, aiming for a literal Conan the Barbarian type guy, Big Sword, Loincloth, and Austrian accent included. I didnt even read the full class abilities, figuring I would wing it as I went and leveled through, so the synergy of the -5/+10 with Reckless didnt even stand out until I hit level 2, and started negating the penalties, which was even further exacerbated when I got Berserker's Frenzy and Extra Attack.

Ill admit, I do think a portion of the spotlight constantly being on me, is that the party has pretty much given up on trying to compete with me on damage, so theyre almost all committed to supporting me as best they can, whether from Protection fighting style, Paladin Save auras, and even spells like Haste/Bless/etc used exclusively on me. Normally, Id have no problem with this in 3.X, but it has caused such a rift in combats, that if I actually do ever fail a save, or get distracted for even a few rounds, the encounters are over-tuned to accommodate me being a litteral Ion Cannon, that until the effect ends, or I manage to reroll and pass a save, the party is pretty much hitting a panic button, because 80% of their combat strength is invested on me.

It has even gotten to the point that the group dynamic as far as "Party Leader" and story focus has almost shifted away from the 3 people who have been there the longest, and are effectively Frodo1/2/3 with the Ring of Power in tow, and people are more interested in the Barbarian with a Blood Feud against Orcs, and we have already made a crazy U-Turn along the quest to destroy the plot MacGuffin, to instead chase down a bunch of Orcs that raided a town, all because I mentioned in passing that I wouldnt mind a hunt. Like, my character is so strong relative to the group, that they're almost afraid to tell me no it seems, imagine if in LotR, Frodo and Sam decided not to leave on the boats in the 1st movie, and instead chose to follow Aragorn/Gimli/Legolas to Helm's Deep, in the name of Orc slaying. Thats almost where its at.

[Malifice]

I think I understand what youre saying, but let me clarify, just to be sure...

Do you mean to say that, even though the synergy developed by WotC with a Barbarian and Reckless Attacks/Great Weapon Master may in-fact be intentional, or even a slight oversight, but we both sort of stumbled upon it by happenstance, and now thats what's causing the feeling of Power Spiking?

If so, I can kind of see that. Originally, this campaign started off in 1st Edition AD&D, right before 5E came out. When it was finally released, the group decided together to get the books and update everyone to the newer system, making changes where appropriate, to accommodate class differences, or style changes. For the most part, it was a 1:1 transfer, with minor tweaks where applicable, many of the members of the group's original run kept the same characters, modifying stats to account for the new racial bonuses.

They played a for few sessions before I joined, rolling up this Barbarian. I came from 3.X where its entirely about optimizing as best you can, especially melee classes, so I assumed that everything was the same still, with Mages being kings. I didn't know anything about the rules systems, and when I showed up about an hour early to create this guy, I quickly rifled through the classes and Feats section, and just automatically settled with a 2Hander Barbarian with Power Attack, which is a pretty generic build by 3.X standards. Stat rolls happened, giving me a mega-strong array, and I just put it all into physical stats, aiming for a literal Conan the Barbarian type guy, Big Sword, Loincloth, and Austrian accent included. I didnt even read the full class abilities, figuring I would wing it as I went and leveled through, so the synergy of the -5/+10 with Reckless didnt even stand out until I hit level 2, and started negating the penalties, which was even further exacerbated when I got Berserker's Frenzy and Extra Attack.

Ill admit, I do think a portion of the spotlight constantly being on me, is that the party has pretty much given up on trying to compete with me on damage, so theyre almost all committed to supporting me as best they can, whether from Protection fighting style, Paladin Save auras, and even spells like Haste/Bless/etc used exclusively on me. Normally, Id have no problem with this in 3.X, but it has caused such a rift in combats, that if I actually do ever fail a save, or get distracted for even a few rounds, the encounters are over-tuned to accommodate me being a litteral Ion Cannon, that until the effect ends, or I manage to reroll and pass a save, the party is pretty much hitting a panic button, because 80% of their combat strength is invested on me.

It has even gotten to the point that the group dynamic as far as "Party Leader" and story focus has almost shifted away from the 3 people who have been there the longest, and are effectively Frodo1/2/3 with the Ring of Power in tow, and people are more interested in the Barbarian with a Blood Feud against Orcs, and we have already made a crazy U-Turn along the quest to destroy the plot MacGuffin, to instead chase down a bunch of Orcs that raided a town, all because I mentioned in passing that I wouldnt mind a hunt. Like, my character is so strong relative to the group, that they're almost afraid to tell me no it seems, imagine if in LotR, Frodo and Sam decided not to leave on the boats in the 1st movie, and instead chose to follow Aragorn/Gimli/Legolas to Helm's Deep, in the name of Orc slaying. Thats almost where its at.

But you also lucked out with amazing stats, were gifted some amazing items (in a belt of fire giant strength and a +2 sword), and benefit from a house rule that virtually lets you frenzy all the time. Tacked on to the shorter adventuring days your DM is happy with, and is it any wonder you are seeing such a disparity?

Allow me to come into your campaign with a Diviner Wizard of your level, with the same stat rolls, a +2 wand of the war mage, a staff of power, a house rule that lets me use arcane recovery every short rest instead of long rest, and we can see how things even out.

[Mongobear]

But you also lucked out with amazing stats, were gifted some amazing items (in a belt of fire giant strength and a +2 sword), and benefit from a house rule that virtually lets you frenzy all the time. Tacked on to the shorter adventuring days your DM is happy with, and is it any wonder you are seeing such a disparity?

Allow me to come into your campaign with a Diviner Wizard of your level, with the same stat rolls, a +2 wand of the war mage, a staff of power, a house rule that lets me use arcane recovery every short rest instead of long rest, and we can see how things even out.

To be fair, the house-ruled exhaustion was around before I joined, or even rolled up the Barbarian, apparently there was some sort of disliking of the system beforehand, I just happened to unknowingly roll a class that took advantage of it. Now that we are rebuilding ourselves to fit into a more balanced point-buy, a handful of the house rules are being re-evaluated, and the exhaustion one I believe is the first for consideration. This is moot, since Im respeccing into Totem, but it should even things out.

I think part of the issue with some of the gear were finding being so strong, is that the DM might have not known that the most powerful items in the game are only +3 now. When I got the +2 sword at ~level 6 or so, it didnt seem outrageous, since in 3.X thats about a normal level to start seeing +2 items, I was unaware of how much they lowered the power of magic items. The Belt however, I knew was a pretty big deal, so I cant even begin to explain that one away.

[Malifice]

To be fair, the house-ruled exhaustion was around before I joined, or even rolled up the Barbarian, apparently there was some sort of disliking of the system beforehand, I just happened to unknowingly roll a class that took advantage of it. Now that we are rebuilding ourselves to fit into a more balanced point-buy, a handful of the house rules are being re-evaluated, and the exhaustion one I believe is the first for consideration. This is moot, since Im respeccing into Totem, but it should even things out.

I think part of the issue with some of the gear were finding being so strong, is that the DM might have not known that the most powerful items in the game are only +3 now. When I got the +2 sword at ~level 6 or so, it didnt seem outrageous, since in 3.X thats about a normal level to start seeing +2 items, I was unaware of how much they lowered the power of magic items. The Belt however, I knew was a pretty big deal, so I cant even begin to explain that one away.

Its like giving a staff of power to the party wizard (same power level) Ditto a +2 wand of the war mage (about equal to a +2 sword). If you introduce that kind of stuff into your campaign, you cant complain when your players use it to smash encounters.

What I would do If I was your DM (and what I suggest you all as a group discuss doing):


First I would turf out his house rules. Hes tinkering with a system that doesnt need them. I made the same mistake.
Then (for fairness) I would give all the players the opportunity to rebuild their PC's using point buy stats (at the same level they are currently) and with the RAW (and SCAG options to compensate).
Then the sword and belt both get errataed into minor magical items appropriate to your level (a +1 sword is OK, and tone that belt down to just give expertise on strength (athletics) checks and require an attunement slot.

Going fowards, he needs to be much more careful with magic item placement. The DMG has guidelines on treasure placement by level.