Fist of Raziel + Surge of Fortune + Vorpal Weapon = One Hit Kill???

[Shadurak]

Ok, so let me get this straight.
The ability Fist of Raziel(a PrC from BoED) gets on level 3:

Confirming: At 3rd level, whenever a fist of Raziel smites evil, all critical rolls are automatically successful (so every threat is a critical hit). This works even if the weapon has a magical effect related to critical hits, unlike the similar effect of the bless weapon spell.
Bolded part is me, of course.
Surge of Fortune(a spell from Complete Champion) reads:
Level: Cleric 5
Components: V, S, DF,
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Personal
Target: You
Duration: 1 round/level or until discharged

The power of your deity flows through you, guiding your movements and honing your instincts.
Upon casting this spell, you gain a +2 luck bonus on attack rolls and damage rolls, saving throws, skill checks, ability checks, and spell penetration checks, as well as to Armor Class.
At any point before the spell expires, you can channel some of its remaining power into a single instant of perfect fortune as an immediate action. The result of the next attack roll, saving throw, skill check, ability check, or spell penetration check you attempt is treated as a natural 20, as long as it occurs within 1 round of the time you invoked this power. (If you use it for an attack roll, you must still roll to confirm the critical hit normally). Using this option instantly ends the spell.
Again, bolded part is mine.
Upon a roll of natural 20 (followed by a successful roll to confirm the critical hit), the weapon severs the opponent's head (if it has one) from its body. Some creatures, such as many aberrations and all oozes, have no heads. Others, such as golems and undead creatures other than vampires, are not affected by the loss of their heads. Most other creatures, however, die when their heads are cut off.

So what I get from this is that whenever a Fist of Raziel that has achieved at least 3 levels in the PrC expends Surge of Fortune on a Smite Evil attack with a Vorpal weapon, he can automatically kill any evil enemy that considers having its head cut off fatal. Since FoR is 9/10 divine spellcasting PrC, getting SoF is a non-issue. You can easily enter as a cleric of Heironeus with the War domain or as a favored soul.

Am I reading this correctly? This does seem a little bit too much, even for CoDzilla.

[illyahr]

Yes, it would work like that. No, it is far from the most broken thing that can be done. This only works on evil creatures and works on an ability you have a limited amount of. Not to mention that anyone that this would work on isn't much of a threat as there are more ways to be dangerous out of combat than there are in combat.

Did you know you can destroy the world with 2 castings of PAO? Since it works on the target's initial size, not mass, you use one casting to increase the density of a rock by 10^1000. You then, since only the initial size of the target matters, increase its size by the same amount. Congratulation, you just made a black hole on the surface of the planet.

[ExLibrisMortis]

It's an instant kill on anything that's not immune to critical hits. That means plants, undead, oozes, elementals and constructs are not affected, plus swarms, amorphous creatures, and multiheaded creatures. You also need to be in melee range, make a melee attack, cast a 5th-level spell, and use a smite attempt (total action cost: two standards and an immediate). Your weapon costs at least 72.000 gp (level 12 WBL is 88.000), and it's weaker than similarly-priced weapons when you're not smiting or surge-of-fortuning. Finally, you need to be LG, take a specific PrC (including a feat tax of 1 bad feat), and it only works on evil creatures.

Overall, not game-breaking.

[Uncle Pine]

Am I reading this correctly? This does seem a little bit too much, even for CoDzilla.

I don't see why it wouldn't work. The most straightforward way to get both Surge of Fortune and Fist of Raziel 3 is Cleric 7/Fist of Raziel 3 (qualifying at 7th level thanks to Divine Power setting your BAB at +7). This means that at 10th level you get a 1/day OHKO attack against evil creatures weak to decapitation. And if you fail your to-hit roll, it is wasted. One level later, the simplest d2 Crusader (Crusader 11) gains as many OHKO attacks against creatures that can die from hp damage as he wants.
Oh, and you also need a +6 weapon. A Medium Crusader needs a Small gauntlet or a shuriken.

[FocusWolf413]

You can't use divine power to qualify for a prestiege class. Spells are temporary effects. It doesn't matter if you use DMM and persist; it just doesn't work.

Also, no dm would ever allow a d2 crusader, while this isn't as bad.

[Shadurak]

Yes, this trick does have some rather limiting drawbacks, I admit. Still, the look upon a DM's face when you one-shot his big bad demon or evil wizard is definitely going to be priceless.:smallbiggrin: I gotta try this sometime.
In the same vein, can you use Quicken Spell, DMM(Quicken) and Rapid Metamagic with a Favored Soul(who gained turn undead from, say, sacred exorcist) to quicken spells for free on the fly?

[Boci]

You can't use divine power to qualify for a prestiege class. Spells are temporary effects. It doesn't matter if you use DMM and persist; it just doesn't work.

Actually yes you can. Whilst its a common houserule, 3.5 as a system does not distinguish between temporary and permanent buffs except where explicitly noted.

[Fouredged Sword]

And DMM persist means you never have to worry about not having that BAB.

[Âmesang]

Yes, this trick does have some rather limiting drawbacks, I admit. Still, the look upon a DM's face when you one-shot his big bad demon or evil wizard is definitely going to be priceless.:smallbiggrin: I gotta try this sometime.
Just need a DM that'll make a callback to The Legend of Dragoon (https://youtu.be/5qiFsT41AHg). :smalltongue:

"Nigel, he cut my head off! Did you see that?, he cut my head off!"

(Actually couldn't a Troll-Blooded creature just +POP+ it back on?)

[Boci]

And DMM persist means you never have to worry about not having that BAB.

Well, for the most part. Dispel magic is a thing. So are AMF, but they're much rarer.

[Uncle Pine]

You can't use divine power to qualify for a prestiege class. Spells are temporary effects. It doesn't matter if you use DMM and persist; it just doesn't work.
This is your opinion and isn't supported by any rule. Especially in this case, since you never lose any prerequisite: as a 7th level Cleric you have BAB +5 or +7 while under the effect of Divine Power. If you level up while under the effect of Divine Power, you can enter the Fist of Raziel PrC if you satisfy the other prerequisites because you have a BAB of at least +6. Now as soon as Divine Power effect fades, you have BAB +6 because Fist of Raziel has full BAB. So you still qualify.


Also, no dm would ever allow a d2 crusader, while this isn't as bad.
It doesn't fit in every campaign out there. Still, d2 Crusaders aren't invincible because they have their own share of problems: they have to hit someone in melee to actually OHKO it. This means that they need to be able to get close to their target enough to punch it and they must be able to hit it. Note that d2 Crusaders themselves are (most of the time) vulnerable to hp damage too. As they are vulnerable to ability damage, ability drain, energy drain, being blinded, confused, intimidated, dazed, entangled, exhausted, fascinated, nauseated, paralyzed, petrified, stunned, etc. The list goes on.
In case you're still skeptical about the fact that it's possible to challenge a d2 Crusader, One Punch Man may be a worth reading.


Yes, this trick does have some rather limiting drawbacks, I admit. Still, the look upon a DM's face when you one-shot his big bad demon or evil wizard is definitely going to be priceless.:smallbiggrin: I gotta try this sometime.
Yes it will. Just make sure to set it up correctly so that you don't miss your opponent. An allied spellcaster armed with a spellblade of Wraithstrike and True Strike... Oh wait, I just remembered that since discharging Surge of Fortune turns your to-hit into a natural 20 you auto-hit. Just be wary of opponents with concealment then. :smallbiggrin:

[FocusWolf413]

Now as soon as Divine Power effect fades, you have BAB +6 because Fist of Raziel has full BAB. So you still qualify.


No, you don't. As soon as Divine Power fades, you lose all benefits of FoR. You can't use the ability of a prestiege class to keep qualifying for that prestiege class. You need qualify for a class before you gain any benefits. As a 7th level cleric, without Divine Power, your BAB would be 5. You can only be a Fist of Raziel with Divine Power up. If someone hits you with a dispel, you lose saves, bab, spells per day, class abilities, etc.

[torrasque666]

No, you don't. As soon as Divine Power fades, you lose all benefits of FoR. You can't use the ability of a prestiege class to keep qualifying for that prestiege class. You need qualify for a class before you gain any benefits. As a 7th level cleric, without Divine Power, your BAB would be 5. You can only be a Fist of Raziel with Divine Power up. If someone hits you with a dispel, you lose saves, bab, spells per day, class abilities, etc.
Even using the old/CW/CA rules, you kept everything but class features and spells. BAB, HD, saves, and skills.

[CrazyNoob]

Strength of conviction feat from exemplar of evil changing smite good/evil to generic smite anything (with no bonus to hit) would make this bit more interesting..

[Uncle Pine]

No, you don't. As soon as Divine Power fades, you lose all benefits of FoR. You can't use the ability of a prestiege class to keep qualifying for that prestiege class. You need qualify for a class before you gain any benefits. As a 7th level cleric, without Divine Power, your BAB would be 5. You can only be a Fist of Raziel with Divine Power up. If someone hits you with a dispel, you lose saves, bab, spells per day, class abilities, etc.
Again, this isn't supported by any rule. Even applying the most restrictive (existing) ruling to this case, losing the prerequisites of a PrC lets you keep BAB, which means that in this case you never lose any prerequisites.

[DarkSonic1337]

Even using the old/CW/CA rules, you kept everything but class features and spells. BAB, HD, saves, and skills.

IIRC the CA version actually has you keep spellcasting.

[INoKnowNames]

Just felt like weighing in that tricks like these, while fun once the first time they happen, might not get much use afterwards if you keep playing them. The cleric in question might find himself against more and more opponents who aren't evil enough to be smited, or against beasties that don't die from losing their head.

Just a note.

[Kraken]

You can't use divine power to qualify for a prestiege class. Spells are temporary effects. It doesn't matter if you use DMM and persist; it just doesn't work.


I have seen this stated many times over the years (edit: in this same context, and but also many others). I've still yet to see anyone provide a citation to back it up, though.

[FocusWolf413]

You need to have the prerequisites before you gain class abilities. Even if for some reason you keep the class's chassis, you need all of the class's prerequisites to gain any benefit of the class. Keyword: prerequisite. A 7th level cleric without Divine Power doesn't qualify for Fist of Raziel, so a 7th level cleric/3rd level Fist of Raziel without divine power doesn't qualify either. You can't retroactively qualify for a PrC. It doesn't work.

[Boci]

You need to have the prerequisites before you gain class abilities. Even if for some reason you keep the class's chassis, you need all of the class's prerequisites to gain any benefit of the class. Keyword: prerequisite. A 7th level cleric without Divine Power doesn't qualify for Fist of Raziel, so a 7th level cleric/3rd level Fist of Raziel without divine power doesn't qualify either. You can't retroactively qualify for a PrC. It doesn't work.

Yes you can. Whilst perfectly logical, what you are saying is a houserule. Feat have prerequisite, prestige classes have requirements, and nowhere does it apply any stipulation to where these requirements are coming from. Does a Cleric 7/FoR 3 have the neccissarily BAB? Yes, and no follow up questions by RAW.

DMG - Pg. 176 "Unlike the basic classes found in the Player's Handbook, characters must meet requirements before they can take their first level of a prestige class."

That's all. You just have to meet the requirements, how is irrelephant. A cleric can qualify with Divine Power, because that increases their BAB.

Personally if I were a DM and a player tried this, I'd compromise and make the following house rule "You must have spent the majority of your adventuring days of the previous level having all necessary requirements for the PrC". As such, a DMM Persist Cleric would qualify for the class, as they had been using magic to augment themselves martially, to the point where not being that good with a weapon probably feels weird. By contrast, a cleric who cast Divine Power on themselves for fights doesn't qualify as they simply gained flashes of the necessary combat skill the prestige class requires.

[Crake]

Honestly, i prefer just going straight cleric, picking up power attack and a scythe, and use bless weapon and surge of fortune while full power attacking for an auto hit/crit/x4 damage against evil foes at full power attack. Throw in leap attack when you can and bam, that's an absolute buttload of damage. Who needs vorpal when you're dealing enough damage to kill everything anyway?

[Fouredged Sword]

Honestly, i prefer just going straight cleric, picking up power attack and a scythe, and use bless weapon and surge of fortune while full power attacking for an auto hit/crit/x4 damage against evil foes at full power attack. Throw in leap attack when you can and bam, that's an absolute buttload of damage. Who needs vorpal when you're dealing enough damage to kill everything anyway?

Eh, Auto-Hit vaporal is a pretty decent kill method for epic play. It bypasses HP, saves, and AC. Ether the target is immune to beheading or dies. Don't expect it to work on most things, but not a bad option to have in your stable of solutions to the living enemy problems.

[Anthrowhale]

Honestly, i prefer just going straight cleric, picking up power attack and a scythe, and use bless weapon and surge of fortune while full power attacking for an auto hit/crit/x4 damage against evil foes at full power attack. Throw in leap attack when you can and bam, that's an absolute buttload of damage. Who needs vorpal when you're dealing enough damage to kill everything anyway?

Note that using the autohit feature of Surge of Fortune requires an immediate action hence you can only trigger

There are more straightforward approaches to decapitate. The easiest of them seems to be 'Sense Weakness' from Magic of Eberron. Cast it and Surge of Fortune in advance, then use your immediate action in combat to trigger the surge and decapitate anything vulnerable.