What options does a wizard have against a target that has spell immunity.

[SangoProduction]

Let's say Flesh Golem. For argument's sake, let's assume a wizard-casting level equivalent of whatever spell-immune creature's cr is.

My only idea is for it to use affect the world around it, with grease and stone wall or such. But such measures don't really deal with it, as much as it cordons it off (temporarily, depending on the spell), and some DMs, for whatever reason, won't award xp unless it's killed (though it's probably more worth to skip it for easier targets). I think I also had 1 DM that had spell immunity mean that it negated any magic it came in contact with (including Wall of Force), save for Wall of Stone, as it created a physical rather than magic thing.

So, there's 3 different situations.

1) Basic: How do we deal with the Flesh Golem (for the sake of this example), long enough to do whatever we are here for, be it treasure or whatever.
2) Need to kill: self-explanatory.
3) Magic-negation. The DM declares the immune creature negates non-physical magic. Orb spells are obvious... but I think I'd have a hard time convincing a DM that negates a Wall of Force to accept a "non magical" ball of fire affecting it.

[Jormengand]

Tenser's Transformation and an adamantine morningstar?

[Janthkin]

Illusions to lead it to a big hole in the ground, and a suitable large pile of large (mundane) rocks for your summoned Ogres to drop on it.

[SangoProduction]

Tenser's Transformation and an adamantine morningstar?

OK, yeah, that might work.


Illusions to lead it to a big hole in the ground, and a suitable large pile of large (mundane) rocks for your summoned Ogres to drop on it.

OO. Not a bad idea with illusions.
/facepalm. I forgot summon creature was a thing.

[KellKheraptis]

Illusions to lead it to a big hole in the ground, and a suitable large pile of large (mundane) rocks for your summoned Ogres to drop on it.

Going off of this, Rock to Mud, Mud to Rock, then turn the BSF loose with a gargantuan adamantine weapon and go golfing with his exposed head. I wanna say you can use a weapon crystal to crit those things too, and if so, immobilize and coup de grace the thing :)

There's also always Reverse Gravity on a big cage or something, and space him off the planet :P

[Amphetryon]

DM-dependent, but Hail of Stone might work. You could also try a Summoning spam to make it fight Hydras or similar.

[SangoProduction]

Going off of this, Rock to Mud, Mud to Rock, then turn the BSF loose with a gargantuan adamantine weapon and go golfing with his exposed head. I wanna say you can use a weapon crystal to crit those things too, and if so, immobilize and coup de grace the thing :)

There's also always Reverse Gravity on a big cage or something, and space him off the planet :P

I don't think a golem losing its head actually does anything, but trapping it in rock-mud-rock is actually decent.

[KellKheraptis]

There's also the Mailman option - spell immunity doesn't help against Conjuration effects. A 4 digit damage Orb of X to the face will likely nuke it just as surely as anything else. You could also TK a bucket full of colossal spears at it until it's destroyed.

Locate City Bomb would do it, too, if you have a high enough DC to knock it over :P

Really anything high-damage will take it out. As long as you're not targeting the golem directly with anything other than Conjurations, its spell immunity is a minor inconvenience at worst. Hell, a Grease spell will likely plant it on its butt long enough for a plan to be hatched on the spot to nuke it :)

[Chronos]

Throw things at it using Telekinesis.

Buff other party members up to the point where they can easily go toe-to-toe with it.

Disintegrate the ground under its feet to drop it into a pit.

[Triskavanski]

Remember Spell Immunity only blocks spells that allow spell resistance. So an Acid Arrow can go through that spell immunity. Summoned creatures I believe don't poof if something had spell resistance and they attempt to attack it.

[AvatarVecna]

Magical effects that don't allow for SR can still affect it. You can also use spells that don't target the creature, but rather target something around it, like Transmute Stone to Mud/Lava, or summoning spells, or Wall spells. Alternatively, you could buff yourself/your ally enough to grind the creature into paste.

[Necroticplague]

You don't need to kill something to get XP. You just need to overcome the challenge. Simply slapping up a wall of stone so a mindless golem doesn't have any way to harm you anymore does indeed overcome it's challenge.

to answer your numbered questions:

1. Manipulate the terrain. The golem itself may be immune to Disintegrate. the floor underneath it, however, likely isn't. Walls of solid materials, various pit-making spells, all work. Heck, since golems are mindless, you could probably throw up an illusion of some stuff to get the same effect (doesn't have the brainpower to question an illusory wall unless it tries to walk through it for some reason).

2. SR:no spells still work perfectly fine. The gold standards in this area are the Orb of X spells, especially Force (because the amount of things resistant or immune to it can be counted on one hand), but Hail of Stone is pretty well-touted for this as well (thanks to being no-save,no attack roll, no SR instantaneous confuration).

3. Orb of X spells ARE nonmagical once conjured. That's why they're SR:no and conjuration (instead of SR:yes and evocation, which indicates your merely bringing forth an energy). The rules are crystal clear on this issue (similarly with Wall of Force. SR:no, golems can't just pass through it). Ignoring that, however, we return to Hail of Stone. Both RAW and common sense says that it can hurt the golem, since all it does is summon rocks to drop on the opponent (the rocks themselves being utterly mundane). Failing that,buffing yourself and going toe-to-toe isn't a bad fall-back plan. Polymorph and co. are something every spellcaster should have anyway, if they can.

[ericgrau]

In general you use the many many SR no spells. For this particular DM you create real effects with spells or use spells that affect the environment. Disintegrate the floor under the golem, etc. The DM may have said that wall of stone works and it may for a while until he sits down, reads the spell and sees how thin and weak the wall is. Then golem smash and we're back to square one. But it's the right general idea; make or affect real things around it.

I would hinder the thing rather than actually trying to kill it yourself, and so make it easier for the beatsticks to kill it. Besides using spells on the environment, hasting allies and giving them 24 hour buffs is also nice. Maybe you can find ways to deal some damage, but they can usually do it better, especially with your help, so cooperate and help them out and don't bother trying to one up them.



3. Orb of X spells ARE nonmagical once conjured. That's why they're SR:no and conjuration (instead of SR:yes and evocation, which indicates your merely bringing forth an energy). The rules are crystal clear on this issue (similarly with Wall of Force. SR:no, golems can't just pass through it). Ignoring that, however, we return to Hail of Stone. Both RAW and common sense says that it can hurt the golem, since all it does is summon rocks to drop on the opponent (the rocks themselves being utterly mundane). Failing that,buffing yourself and going toe-to-toe isn't a bad fall-back plan. Polymorph and co. are something every spellcaster should have anyway, if they can.
Yes, yes, the general and accurate answer is anything SR no. And for this there are much better SR no spells than orbs too. But the OP was saying that a DM that lets the golem walk through a wall of force in spite of the spell's SR no because the golem negates magic. And when he sees a "non-magical" ball made of force or cold he's going to say "Hahahahahahaha, no, it's a magic effect and it doesn't affect the golem."

[Gee-chan]

Just because something is immune to spells doesn't mean you can't do anything to them.

Look for things that alter things around them, like making pits or walls. Or, if that fails, just summon some help and let them deal with it.

[Deophaun]

For the Flesh Golem specifically, is this 3.5? Because dispel magic will suppress it for 1d4 rounds due to spell immunity being changed to SR: Infinite in the .5 update and golems being called out as magic items in the MM.

Dispel magic will not work in PF, though. They fixed that glitch.

[Triskavanski]

Well for that particular DM, ask him back and forth questions on what magic effects said golem.

If he's saying Golems can just walk through walls of force with no issue..

1) He's not reading the whole ability or 2) He's changing the ability to fit his whims.


So ask him if he's reading the full ability. If he isn't, try doing similar perhaps? Or if he's just changing it to fit his whims, hold him to it and use it against him. Ask back and forth different effects that would hit the golem. A summoned creation, a magic weapon, another golem, other walls etc

Find out exactly how magic immune the golem is in the DM world.. and then use it against them.

For example if you have a massive pit of like 20-30 feet radius or so.. cast some sort of magic ground bridge there. I don't know if there is a spell, but if you could cast a wall of force like effect over the top of the pit and then move into the center. The golem can no longer reach you because he's "immune" to it.

With a normal wall of force, spider climb up it or something silly like that. The golem can't reach you because you're on something he can't touch because of his immunity.

[Ravens_cry]

Going off of this, Rock to Mud, Mud to Rock, then turn the BSF loose with a gargantuan adamantine weapon and go golfing with his exposed head. I wanna say you can use a weapon crystal to crit those things too, and if so, immobilize and coup de grace the thing :)

There's also always Reverse Gravity on a big cage or something, and space him off the planet :P
Technically, doing reverse gravity in an open space to it just means it's just bobbing at the upper limits of the area of the spell, which is a max of 10 feet in the air per 2 caster levels (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/reverseGravity.htm).

[KellKheraptis]

Technically, doing reverse gravity in an open space to it just means it's just bobbing at the upper limits of the area of the spell, which is a max of 10 feet in the air per 2 caster levels (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/reverseGravity.htm).

I keep forgetting most people don't have triple digit caster levels :P

[Ravens_cry]

I keep forgetting most people don't have triple digit caster levels :P

Even triple digits is only 4990 feet max. Unless your D&D campaign is set on the Little Prince's asteroid, that's not space.

[Geddy2112]

Assuming you are not solo, you have a party of other classes, right? Just buff them to make them better at fighting it. Haste, enlarge person, increase stat X(if they don't have belts/headbands already),obscuring mist for concealment, and similar spells make them better at killing it for you. even spamming guidance to give the party a +1 to hit helps.

Also, if you have to, you can always polymorph into something and fight it. Obviously this is better at higher levels, but it is still something to do if you don't have any other options.

[AvatarVecna]

Even triple digits is only 4990 feet max. Unless your D&D campaign is set on the Little Prince's asteroid, that's not space.

When I want to really abuse "Reverse Gravity", I build a Spellsword, I find a way to apply Persistent Spell to "Reverse Gravity" (or if the DM nixes the cheesy ways to do that, I instead Extend it), and then I use my metamagic'd RG in a spellstrike; because there's no AoE (since it only affects the target), there's no "top of the AoE" for it to stop falling at, so it just falls upward for the duration of the spell. I then spend a free action to yell "Look's like Team Rocket's blasting off again!", and dodge the books the DM throws at me.

[Necroticplague]

Technically, doing reverse gravity in an open space to it just means it's just bobbing at the upper limits of the area of the spell, which is a max of 10 feet in the air per 2 caster levels (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/reverseGravity.htm).
Which still serves the purpose, as a golem just bobbing a few feet in the air isn't gonna do much harm.


Yes, yes, the general and accurate answer is anything SR no. And for this there are much better SR no spells than orbs too. But the OP was saying that a DM that lets the golem walk through a wall of force in spite of the spell's SR no because the golem negates magic. And when he sees a "non-magical" ball made of force or cold he's going to say "Hahahahahahaha, no, it's a magic effect and it doesn't affect the golem." Except there's two big distinctions between Wall of Force and Orbs that make all the difference in the world: Duration and type.Do you think Wall of Stone will work? Because there is literally zero justification for Wall of Stone (instantaneous conjuration, magic is used to bring large amount of nonmagical stone) working, but Orb of Acid (instantaneous conjuration, magic is used to bring moderate amount of nonmagical acid) not.

[Ravens_cry]

Which still serves the purpose, as a golem just bobbing a few feet in the air isn't gonna do much harm.

I certainly agree. I was merely being pedantic.

[(Un)Inspired]

People have suggested using summoned mosters to smack the crap out of the golem which is a pretty good idea but you could still run out of prepared Summoned Monster spells before the golem goes down (depending on the strength of the golem). I suggest having an army of outsiders fight the golem for you. Planar Binding can provide you with not only many, many, many mroe minions at you disposal for fighting magically immune monsters but aslo with minions that will stay around longer than anything you can summon with a SM spell. You get the added benefit of having much more powerful creatures at your disposal than SM would give you access to.



Even triple digits is only 4990 feet max. Unless your D&D campaign is set on the Little Prince's asteroid, that's not space.

Oh God, someone please run this game; preferable with the Little Prince being trained to fight by King Kai on his tiny planetoid eventually...


...I've got some fan-fiction to write.

[Beheld]

Step 1) Cast Silent Image.
Step 2) Win.

Golems are mindless. Mindless creatures have no memory, thought, or reasoning. So when you create an illusory room around them they instantly respond by acting as if that room has always been there forever. So if you run into a Flesh Golem that wasn't already punching the nearest wall, it won't start when you make a fake or real one. So congrats, you beat it super hard.

Step 3) If you need to kill it, you can literally just have people shoot arrows from outside the wall, because as soon as the arrow hits, the Golem instantly acts as if the arrow has always been here in the room and no one attacked it.

Man almost like mindless is a huge disadvantage or something?

Step 4) If your DM decides that summoned creatures cease to exist when they attack magic immune monsters... try to explain how magic actually works?

[Troacctid]

Step 1) Cast Silent Image.
Step 2) Win.

Golems are mindless. Mindless creatures have no memory, thought, or reasoning. So when you create an illusory room around them they instantly respond by acting as if that room has always been there forever. So if you run into a Flesh Golem that wasn't already punching the nearest wall, it won't start when you make a fake or real one. So congrats, you beat it super hard.

Well of course it wouldn't be punching through the wall already if you weren't on the other side. If that strategy worked, all golems could be defeated by an ordinary door, because as soon as you slammed it in their face, they'd turn around and walk away. Heck, if they really weren't programmed with a concept of object permanence, they'd leave you alone as soon as you left their line of sight, even if all you did was duck behind cover or walk around a corner.

If you think mindless creatures won't try to smash through doors or walls to pursue their prey, you can't have seen many zombie movies.

[Necroticplague]

It kinda depends on their orders. Depending on the exact wording of the orders they strictly follow, sometimes it might work.

[A_S]

Except there's two big distinctions between Wall of Force and Orbs that make all the difference in the world: Duration and type.Do you think Wall of Stone will work? Because there is literally zero justification for Wall of Stone (instantaneous conjuration, magic is used to bring large amount of nonmagical stone) working, but Orb of Acid (instantaneous conjuration, magic is used to bring moderate amount of nonmagical acid) not.
I don't think anybody is arguing that the orb spells don't work by RAW, or that there's even a particularly good RAW-based argument to treat them differently from Wall of Stone. Folks are just trying to answer the OP's question 3, which is "what options are still available if your DM houserules that SR:no spells that still smell suspiciously magical (like Orbs or wall of Force) don't work?" That's not an unreasonable question, because it's not an unreasonable house rule.

I think responding with variants on "but that's not RAW!" both misses the point, and reinforces the stereotype that this forum is full of mindless RAW-following zombies who are hostile to anybody who plays the game differently. Which is, ya know, bad.

[Necroticplague]

I think responding with variants on "but that's not RAW!" both misses the point, and reinforces the stereotype that this forum is full of mindless RAW-following zombies who are hostile to anybody who plays the game differently. Which is, ya know, bad.

I'm not talking about RAW. I'm wondering what possible logical reason there would be to draw a distinction between the two. If there is a consistent underlying logic (other than "F*** you, I'm the DM, consistency is for everyone else at the table"), then I can look for other possible suggestions to improve the usability of future suggestions.Even houserules are still rules, and it'd be nice if I actually knew the rules I was being asked to work within. Duration seems to be the most likely candidate, given what it means about the spell , so I started the line of inquiry with that.

[DrMotives]

I'm not talking about RAW. I'm wondering what possible logical reason there would be to draw a distinction between the two. If there is a consistent underlying logic (other than "F*** you, I'm the DM, consistency is for everyone else at the table"), then I can look for other possible suggestions to improve the usability of future suggestions.Even houserules are still rules, and it'd be nice if I actually knew the rules I was being asked to work within. Duration seems to be the most likely candidate, given what it means about the spell , so I started the line of inquiry with that.

Not saying I'd rule it this way, but I can see one line of reasoning. Wall of stone & wall of iron are cited as a way to get stone or iron as a material by using the wall or breaking it down. Nowhere have I heard of someone throwing orbs of acid spells into a glass basin to collect it because they didn't feel like making craft (alchemy) checks.

[Fouredged Sword]

Hand a scroll of your favored SR yes spell to the party factotum and let him bypass the SR.

[Eldariel]

It's easy enough to disable one with spells anyways (Web, Grease, terraforming). For killing, more or less permanent mooks are the easiest way alongside the mentioned Orbs and Telekinesis (both solid attack options in their own right; you can also have summons use e.g. Telekinesis with GMW'd weapons). Animate Dead, Planar Binding, Simulacrum, Summons. And yeah, buffing self or teammates or familiar and hulk smashing works too, particularly if you use Polymorph (every level tends to have some rather scary creatures that would most likely wipe the floor with a Flesh Golem).

[Aletheides]

1. Transmute Rock to Mud.
2. Transmute Mud to Rock.
3. Incendiary Cloud.
4. Toast Marshmallow. :smallamused:


(Possibly use Wall of Stone or other air-stopping spells between #2 and #3 to prevent the cloud from moving off-target.)

[Triskavanski]

There is a set of spells as well specifically designed to mess with construct. Like Awaken Construct, Control Construct ect.

Most have SR: No, but there are a few that have SR: Yes. Which is silly, since most of the biggest constructs out there have the spell immunity.

[Beheld]

Hell if you want to abuse dumb rules look up the Fiendish Possession rules in Fiendish Codex I, planar bind a Fiend capable of possessing, have him possess the Construct, drag around a hulking bruiser. You may even be able to do this with your own Imp familiar.

It's a non-mind affecting non magic will save for possession, and the text specifically calls out golems as Fiends favorite targets for their low will save.


Well of course it wouldn't be punching through the wall already if you weren't on the other side. If that strategy worked, all golems could be defeated by an ordinary door, because as soon as you slammed it in their face, they'd turn around and walk away. Heck, if they really weren't programmed with a concept of object permanence, they'd leave you alone as soon as you left their line of sight, even if all you did was duck behind cover or walk around a corner.

If you think mindless creatures won't try to smash through doors or walls to pursue their prey, you can't have seen many zombie movies.

Zombie movies either involve zombies with memories, in direct contradiction to the definition of mindless in D&D, or they smell you.

In D&D the definition includes "no memory" which means that the construct literally cannot remember that you are on the other side of the wall, or that you ever existed. So yes, Doors and Corners also defeat mindless constructs.

[ericgrau]

Except there's two big distinctions between Wall of Force and Orbs that make all the difference in the world: Duration and type.Do you think Wall of Stone will work? Because there is literally zero justification for Wall of Stone (instantaneous conjuration, magic is used to bring large amount of nonmagical stone) working, but Orb of Acid (instantaneous conjuration, magic is used to bring moderate amount of nonmagical acid) not.
The OP said specifically his DM wouldn't go for orbs... so an argument about presuming what his DM is thinking is a bit shocking.

[A_S]

I'm not talking about RAW. I'm wondering what possible logical reason there would be to draw a distinction between the two. If there is a consistent underlying logic (other than "F*** you, I'm the DM, consistency is for everyone else at the table"), then I can look for other possible suggestions to improve the usability of future suggestions.Even houserules are still rules, and it'd be nice if I actually knew the rules I was being asked to work within. Duration seems to be the most likely candidate, given what it means about the spell , so I started the line of inquiry with that.
OK, sorry, I misunderstood from your earlier posts and thought you were saying "but it totally DOES work, why would anybody say otherwise?"

The distinction I'd draw isn't one based on a principled interpretation of how the spells work according to the rules, it's a "sniff test" for "how magical does this seem?" I, and I think most people, have no problem imagining that a spell magically creates some rocks, but then after it does so, the rocks aren't magical. I have a much harder time imagining that a spell creates a force-field, or a damaging orb of "force," and that those things are then non-magical. What does a non-magical force-field even mean in a fantasy setting?

Other spells (like Orb of Fire or Orb of Acid) are somewhere in between those; non-magical fire and acid certainly exist, but "hurl a ball of fire at you and it does damage" seems much more like "directly affecting someone with magic" to me than "create non-magical rocks and hurl them at the target" does. I could see a DM using this house rule going either way on the Orb spells other than Force.

[erok0809]

I don't have anything for Orb of Force being nonmagical, but the explanation I like for the other Orb spells being nonmagical is that they create "special acid" that is nonmagical and deals the appropriate damage type. The other Orb spells say "This spell functions as Orb of Acid, except it deals [type] damage" and Orb of Acid says it creates acid that deals acid damage. So I read Orb of Fire as creating acid that deals fire damage. Still nothing for Orb of Force though, since that doesn't have the same language as the other orb spells.

This is mostly irrelevant though, since the orb spells probably won't fly with his DM anyway.

[Telok]

Of course the DM could also be using the AD&D version of golems, which is actually immune to all magical effects trying to directly affect it except for a few specific spells. I've done that, 3.x doesn't have a 60' long slug so I had to import from AD&D.

Still, TK, rock/mud, illusions, and polymorph will all work as described.

[DrMotives]

3.x doesn't have a 60' long slug so I had to import from AD&D.

The 60' slug is in Lost Empires of the Faerun, along with a few other weird vermin types from older editions.

[atemu1234]

Not saying I'd rule it this way, but I can see one line of reasoning. Wall of stone & wall of iron are cited as a way to get stone or iron as a material by using the wall or breaking it down. Nowhere have I heard of someone throwing orbs of acid spells into a glass basin to collect it because they didn't feel like making craft (alchemy) checks.

This is a decent point.

But SR is SR. We aren't talking about the real world. We're talking about a world that runs on its own mechanics, and one of those mechanics is SR. Asking for the logic behind SR is like asking about the logic behind gravity; they exist, and in this case something doesn't operate on it.

[Psyren]

As others mentioned upthread you first need to know whether it is the usual kind of immunity (unbeatable SR, in which case direct SR:No spells will still work), or true immunity (direct magic simply doesn't work on it.) If it's the former then this is trivial. If it's the latter, you just need to use magic indirectly - buff the fighter to hit it like a truck, summon something, fool it with an illusion, fly/teleport past it and ignore it etc.

Even true immunity to magic doesn't mean magic can't bypass or defeat you, which is part of the reason why optimized wizards can be such a nightmare to campaign world with no gentleman's agreements.

[Necroticplague]

If it's the former then this is trivial. If it's the latter, you just need to use magic indirectly - buff the fighter to hit it like a truck, summon something, fool it with an illusion, fly/teleport past it and ignore it etc..

Also, if it's the latter, you kinda need to know what 'directly' means. Does it mean you can't target it, so AoEs are fine? Does it mean they can ignore things made by spells (i.e, walls of stone, iron, or salt)?

I'm personally of the opinion that that's the reason SR exists. SR: yes effects you directly, while SR: no effects you indirectly.

[Troacctid]

Also, if it's the latter, you kinda need to know what 'directly' means. Does it mean you can't target it, so AoEs are fine? Does it mean they can ignore things made by spells (i.e, walls of stone, iron, or salt)?

One assumes it works however it used to work back in 3.0. The modern SR: Infinity version of spell immunity was introduced in the 3.5 update; before then, golems were simply immune to magic.

[Telok]

The 60' slug is in Lost Empires of the Faerun, along with a few other weird vermin types from older editions.
Yeah, I'm not dropping cash on that trash for a couple of one shot monsters that I can pull in and update from old books I already own.

[Jack_Simth]

I don't have anything for Orb of Force being nonmagical, but the explanation I like for the other Orb spells being nonmagical is that they create "special acid" that is nonmagical and deals the appropriate damage type. The other Orb spells say "This spell functions as Orb of Acid, except it deals [type] damage" and Orb of Acid says it creates acid that deals acid damage. So I read Orb of Fire as creating acid that deals fire damage. Still nothing for Orb of Force though, since that doesn't have the same language as the other orb spells.

This is mostly irrelevant though, since the orb spells probably won't fly with his DM anyway.
Perhaps the orb spells pull chunks of especially dense elemental matter from their respective planes?

[Psyren]

One assumes it works however it used to work back in 3.0. The modern SR: Infinity version of spell immunity was introduced in the 3.5 update; before then, golems were simply immune to magic.

But even in 3.0 you could have a summoned monster/buffed martial beat them up or magically create a chasm for them to fall into or a cave-in to trap them etc. So even "3.0 immunity" has limits.