Scrying dead

[Dr_S]

What happens if a caster attempts to scry a person who has died? (Not undead)

Does the spell fail? Is there a way to force the scry attempt to fail?

Does it show the body? Is there a way to redirect the scry attempt to another target?

I have a character who is about to attempt to fake his death, a close family member regularly checks in on him via scrying as his family members have a habit of being kidnapped/killed. (This tendency is the primary driving reason why he's going to attempt to fake his death)

He is a caster who will, by the time this plan has gone into place, have taken "Craft Wondrous Item" as well as have months of time to do nothing but sit and craft. (I had multiple characters in this campaign, so this one had traveled abroad and was studying at a magic school for the last several months.)

Bonus Questions: Is there a way to create a body that looks like my character's? I'll blast it with fire or something to obfuscate any differences. (If scrying reveals the dead body, is there a way to redirect it to THIS dead body? perhaps with a magical item?)

Would faking my death screw up my leadership score in any way?
Should I fake my cohort's death too?
Would my other followers be loyal enough to be trusted with this secret?

Is there a better option than Hat of Disguise to keep my identity concealed? Do I just wear it at night too?

[CockroachTeaParty]

You'll probably have to lose most of the benefits of your Leadership score, and spend a lot of time working up a network of followers again in the future. The more people that know you faked your death, the higher your chance of being found out. It would only take a Charm Person spell to get one of your followers to start talking, and most of them are probably low-level NPC class types...

Now, as for the scrying spell itself, it targets specifically a creature. If a person were dead, it would fail, since a dead body is an object and no longer a creature.

The 5th level illusion spell False Vision could produce a fake image of your dead body, but you would need to stay within a 40 ft. radius area, suboptimal if you were mobile. Also, a canny spellcaster might figure something is wrong if the spell succeeds and shows them a dead body, when they know it should have failed in such an instance.

[Jack_Simth]

What happens if a caster attempts to scry a person who has died?
Reply hazy, ask your DM. The Scry spell targets a creature. It's not 100% clear (to me, at least), whether or not a deceased creature is still a creature as far as the rules for such things go.

Is there a way to redirect the scry attempt to another target?
Yes and no. If someone scrys on you, you can make use of Detect Scrying (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/d/detect-scrying) to know it's happening, and False Vision (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/f/false-vision) to make it show whatever you want. Both effects are no-save, no-SR. Most scrying effects do not give the location (just show the area), so if you know approximately when you'll be scried on, you can be waiting in a room prepared with False Vision while you've got Detect Scrying up, and make it show a completely different prepared room (ideally teleport-blocked by Forbiddance or some such, to obscure when the fake corpse became a crispy critter) with whatever scene you like. I would recommend having the family member 'watch you die', as that way the question on whether or not a dead person is a valid target for a scry is mostly moot - 'you' were still alive when the scry started.


Bonus Questions: Is there a way to create a body that looks like my character's? I'll blast it with fire or something to obfuscate any differences.VERY MUCH YES (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/c/clone)

(If scrying reveals the dead body, is there a way to redirect it to THIS dead body? perhaps with a magical item?)

Would faking my death screw up my leadership score in any way?
For practical purposes, it'll make it cease to exist under a lot (not all) of DM's. If they don't know you're alive, they can't get orders to follow them. If they think you're dead, they'll probably wander off and do other things.

There may be some exceptions... but figure on starting over from scratch with your new identity on recruiting followers.


Should I fake my cohort's death too?
Probably.


Would my other followers be loyal enough to be trusted with this secret?
Reply hazy, ask your DM.

Is there a better option than Hat of Disguise to keep my identity concealed? Do I just wear it at night too?There are. Mundane disguise, boosted by various other buffs. What are your character resources?



Now, as for the scrying spell itself, it targets specifically a creature. If a person were dead, it would fail, since a dead body is an object and no longer a creature.
I'm curious: Do you actually have a reference on this?

[CockroachTeaParty]

I'm curious: Do you actually have a reference on this?

Hmm... Not sure if it's 100% rules accurate, but it's how my group has treated them for years. I think the reasoning goes that something that doesn't have any mental ability scores is treated as an object, like a tree. A dead body doesn't have any mental ability scores (or really any ability scores), and is thus treated as an object.

If I can find anything more definitive, I'll post it here.

Edit: from the PFSRD:

"The last 3.5 Dungeons & Dragons FAQ that was released by Wizards of the Coast stated that a dead body is treated as an object, and thus it can be damaged using the rules for “Smashing an Object”. As far as we (d20pfsrd.com editors) know, there has been no such statement for Pathfinder so whether or not this is true in your campaign should be considered GM discretion."

[Jack_Simth]

Hmm... Not sure if it's 100% rules accurate, but it's how my group has treated them for years. I think the reasoning goes that something that doesn't have any mental ability scores is treated as an object, like a tree. A dead body doesn't have any mental ability scores (or really any ability scores), and is thus treated as an object.

If I can find anything more definitive, I'll post it here.

Edit: from the PFSRD:

"The last 3.5 Dungeons & Dragons FAQ that was released by Wizards of the Coast stated that a dead body is treated as an object, and thus it can be damaged using the rules for “Smashing an Object”. As far as we (d20pfsrd.com editors) know, there has been no such statement for Pathfinder so whether or not this is true in your campaign should be considered GM discretion."

Which... means that as far as you're aware, the ruling is exactly as authoritative as any ruling found in the FAQ, which means "Ask your DM". Got it.

[CockroachTeaParty]

To quote the section on ability scores:

"Regular plants, such as one finds growing in gardens and fields, lack Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma scores; even though plants are alive, they are objects, not creatures."

So does a dead body have an INT, WIS, or CHA score? It used to, sure, but once the soul departs...?

[Jack_Simth]

To quote the section on ability scores:

"Regular plants, such as one finds growing in gardens and fields, lack Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma scores; even though plants are alive, they are objects, not creatures."

So does a dead body have an INT, WIS, or CHA score? It used to, sure, but once the soul departs...?
Can you show me where the game rules specify they change? If not, you're in "not clearly specified" territory, and that's "Ask your DM" territory.

[atemu1234]

Changing one's appearance permanently is fairly difficult to do in standard D&D; ask your DM if there is a way to change your features.

A belt of Gender-Change could work in this case, probably, as removing it is difficult and stands a chance of rendering you genderless (which works out just as well).

[Jack_Simth]

Changing one's appearance permanently is fairly difficult to do in standard D&D; ask your DM if there is a way to change your features.

A belt of Gender-Change could work in this case, probably, as removing it is difficult and stands a chance of rendering you genderless (which works out just as well).
Note that Bestow Curse (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/bestowCurse.htm) will do the job under the " You may also invent your own curse, but it should be no more powerful than those described above" clause, and the effect is also available for any old magic item as a drawback (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/cursedItems.htm#drawback) if you look at the table for those.

[Dr_S]

Thanks for the replies.

DM informed me that the last time it came up, (I should have realized this would have come up at some point) that he decided that the spell failed so that's the interpretation we're using. Since I'm at a magical school with access to a library and have points in knowledge arcana, I know this in character as well.

Just need to find a reliably cheap way to create a fake body. Anything that would make it appear I was dead. (I'm too low level for clone... :smallfrown:)

I'm a 7th level sorcerer (arcane bloodline with racoon familiar) and my plan isn't going to kick in until I hit 8th, when I'll be taking non-detection (and phantasmal killer, but that's for a different part of my plan that doesn't have anything to do with faking my death)

I should have enough spell slots to reasonably keep non-detection on me round the clock, and since the scry attempt will be coming from a caster who's a few levels lower using a crystal ball, I'm hoping the DC 23 caster level check will be sufficient (only succeed on an 18 or higher, which is do-able, but I'll do what I can to make sure he's only rolling that one once)

I was thinking, is there a spell that creates (or can create) a stone duplicate of me? Like creates a statue of my likeness? (I could then use shatter, and they might believe I've been petrified/shattered) Or just a way to take an otherwise dead body and alter it's appearance? The DM ruled that there is no resurrection in this setting, so I don't think there will be much investigating that might make them realize a body wasn't me if they are given enough evidence to conclude that it was my body. (Burning a random dead body beyond recognition however, won't be enough because then it's just a john doe, and I need them to believe they've found my body enough to rule me dead)

My plan is to actually abandon my cohort/followers, and dismiss my familiar. My leadership score is going to take a hit because I was getting a bonus from being the member of a noble family (that was balancing out the penalty from having a familiar) I think if they choose to scry on my familiar, that finding it without powers will convince them that I'm for real dead.

Basically, for the cost of about a quarter of a +2 magic weapon (I have a +1 evil sword i'm not proficient with, but I need a couple bucks for the hat of disguise, cost of keeping non-detection up, and a few supplies before I head out) How can I leave behind a body that can be mistakenly identified to be me by someone who doesn't know me well? (My family will be investigating through scrying, but I'm a country away, so the physical investigation will be done by officials of the city/school I'm at)

[Psyren]

Scrying works across planes, so if you scry on a dead creature successfully you will see their petitioner form.