Spell Sniper + GWM + GFB/BB Combo

[Gignere]

So with Spell Sniper it looks like you can add -5/+10 of GWM to GFB and BB cantrips, when you are using a heavy reach weapon.

This screams for a Vhuman EK two hander reach weapon build. Probably multi classing into wizard after level 8. Probably squeeze in war caster to cast BB as a reaction.

Thinking Level 1 - 3 - Spell Sniper, primarily use booming blade every attack. 4 - 5, pick up GWM and attack twice or booming blade and +10 when you have advantage, 6 war caster, and at 7 always use war magic. Level 9 multi into wizard?

Anyone have any better ideas to optimize this combo? Is EK the best build for these feats combo?

[Corran]

Personally, I dont find it a good idea to combine GWM with BB/GFB, cause you are risking more damage in order to gain that +10 flat damage, and you get it only once per turn. Even if you manage to spend every reaction on an AoO and thus use GWM a second time, it would be strictly better to do that with a battlemaster fighter (3 times per round with extra attack at level 11, and one additional time with the riposte maneuvre). Plus that way, you are risking less damage and gain the flat damage bonus more times.

[Dalebert]

Am I misunderstanding your post? Are you suggesting a fighter can cast BB once for each attack he gets? It doesn't matter how many attacks he gets. He can only cast BB once on a turn and maybe once more with Action Surge and potentially again if he has Warcaster with his reaction and an AoO is triggered.

[Foxhound438]

i don't think GWM is the choice here, PAM seems better since you can BB on entry to your 10 foot reach, possibly forcing the enemy to take extra damage or settle for a weaker ranged attack.

[CNagy]

i don't think GWM is the choice here, PAM seems better since you can BB on entry to your 10 foot reach, possibly forcing the enemy to take extra damage or settle for a weaker ranged attack.

You would need Spell Sniper, Warcaster, and Polearm Master to pull off this combo--that's a lot of feats.

[Gignere]

Personally, I dont find it a good idea to combine GWM with BB/GFB, cause you are risking more damage in order to gain that +10 flat damage, and you get it only once per turn. Even if you manage to spend every reaction on an AoO and thus use GWM a second time, it would be strictly better to do that with a battlemaster fighter (3 times per round with extra attack at level 11, and one additional time with the riposte maneuvre). Plus that way, you are risking less damage and gain the flat damage bonus more times.

Well let's math it out according to the GWM guide.

So BB at level 4 (this is when you get GWM)

Assume 27 PB or standard array this would result in +3 to hit and +3 to damage. No magic weapons. CR appropriate challenges have AC in the 13 - 15 region so lets say 14 AC.

With BB at level 4 assuming creature moves after you hit with BB. That is 4.5 + 5.5 + 3 not accounting for GWF, so 13, you have a +5 to hit so the formula is

5 - 13/2 +16 = 14.5, accounting for GWF would probably lower this by about .5 so anything CR appropriate is fine. Adding bless would increase this to anything AC 17 or lower and you should -5/+10. My current party will have a cleric so having bless up is a good assumption. Add advantage and pretty any CR appropriate creature you should be using GWM and it will result in DPR increase. But I will ignore GWF below to simplify the calculation.

At level 5 the math changes because BB will increase by 9 damage while your to hit only increase by +1. So at this level it is only better to -5/+10 with advantage even with bless up so just attack twice normally.

By level 8 when you get two more ASI and increase strength to +5 and assuming +1 weapon. This will change to 9 - 25/2 +16 = 12.5, with bless this will go up to 15 AC or less. With advantage this will go up to pretty much covering all CR appropriate creatures AC at level 8.

So I don't see why GWM + BB is not optimal if you decide to buff out your BB with a two hander. Certain levels like when BB gets a big jump in power you should not use it. But I am also making the assumption that your target is moving every time it gets hit with BB and that is certainly not true so the times when you should GWM + BB should be quite often, even at level 5.

Maybe not as optimal as a battle master but if you are an EK I don't see why you wouldn't nab GWM if your chosen weapon is a heavy reach weapon.

[Foxhound438]

You would need Spell Sniper, Warcaster, and Polearm Master to pull off this combo--that's a lot of feats.

EK gets a lot of feats...

[JohnDoe]

What does spell sniper have to do with any of this?

You can't use a cantrip as a reaction to a creature entering your range with Polearm master + warcaster. This has been confirmed by Mike Mearls.

You could use warcaster to cast BB, but again I don't see how spell sniper is relevant to any of this.

[MeeposFire]

What does spell sniper have to do with any of this?

You can't use a cantrip as a reaction to a creature entering your range with Polearm master + warcaster. This has been confirmed by Mike Mearls.

You could use warcaster to cast BB, but again I don't see how spell sniper is relevant to any of this.

You should take what was said in context. Unless there has been a more recent ruling (and this being Mearls who is slightly less helpful than Crawford though both have flaws) that ruling was made before green flame blade and booming blade existed and the reason giving for it not working was that polearm master was intended to have the reaction attack to be made with a polearm. With those cantrips you make a weapon attack with the polearm so Mearls stated reason for it not working no longer applies.

[JohnDoe]

A melee weapon attack with the Polearm...
Not a cantrip that includes a melee weapon attack...

There's a reason warcaster exists, and there's a reason you can't replace weapon attacks in any other circumstance (ie the attack action) with Cantrips.

Attack Opportunity: "...you use your reaction to make one melee attack"
Making a melee attack isn't the same as casting a cantrip, no matter how much you want it to be.

[SharkForce]

A melee weapon attack with the Polearm...
Not a cantrip that includes a melee weapon attack...

There's a reason warcaster exists, and there's a reason you can't replace weapon attacks in any other circumstance (ie the attack action) with Cantrips.

Attack Opportunity: "...you use your reaction to make one melee attack"
Making a melee attack isn't the same as casting a cantrip, no matter how much you want it to be.

except that this is an opportunity attack, and the opportunity attack IS being made with the weapon. considering the ruling was unofficial in the first place, i would personally say it's completely within reason to rule that you can indeed use your polearm to make a melee spell attack, and say that you are completely in line with mearls' response. it is also within reason to say that you personally don't think it was intended to work that way, and refuse it on that grounds.

it isn't particularly reasonable to say that based on: http://www.sageadvice.eu/tag/polearm/

"...polearm master applies only if you use the weapons it lists to make the attack" that you can't use booming blade, because when you use booming blade you ARE using the weapon it lists to make the attack. he didn't say "no, polearm master cannot be used to cast a cantrip at all ever under any circumstances no matter what". he just said that you need to use the weapon that polearm master calls for. which you are.

so, while you absolutely can say that you personally feel that it shouldn't be allowed for a variety of reasons, the advice mike mearls gave (which is completely unofficial in any event, he's said so himself - jeremy crawford is the one that has final authority on rules questions) is not one of the ones you can rationally claim.

[JohnDoe]

except that this is an opportunity attack, and the opportunity attack IS being made with the weapon. considering the ruling was unofficial in the first place, i would personally say it's completely within reason to rule that you can indeed use your polearm to make a melee spell attack, and say that you are completely in line with mearls' response. it is also within reason to say that you personally don't think it was intended to work that way, and refuse it on that grounds.

it isn't particularly reasonable to say that based on: http://www.sageadvice.eu/tag/polearm/

"...polearm master applies only if you use the weapons it lists to make the attack" that you can't use booming blade, because when you use booming blade you ARE using the weapon it lists to make the attack. he didn't say "no, polearm master cannot be used to cast a cantrip at all ever under any circumstances no matter what". he just said that you need to use the weapon that polearm master calls for. which you are.

so, while you absolutely can say that you personally feel that it shouldn't be allowed for a variety of reasons, the advice mike mearls gave (which is completely unofficial in any event, he's said so himself - jeremy crawford is the one that has final authority on rules questions) is not one of the ones you can rationally claim.

Yes... A single Melee Attack, as defined in the Melee Attacks section.

Again, no matter how much you want to break the game, you're not going to just because a cantrip includes a single Melee Attack.

"I can use Cantrips on every one of my Attacks in my Attack Action because it says Melee Attack!"

No, you can't...

I quoted the "Melee Attacks" section of the player's handbook. Melee Attacks are used in the Attack Action, the Opportunity Attack, etc.

It does not include Cantrips.

Opportunity Attacks allow you to use one Melee Attack as a reaction. Cantrips can't be used as a reaction unless it explicitly says that you can.

That's what Warcaster is for. Take Warcaster, and you can do that.

[SharkForce]

Yes... A single Melee Attack, as defined in the Melee Attacks section.

Again, no matter how much you want to break the game, you're not going to just because a cantrip includes a single Melee Attack.

"I can use Cantrips on every one of my Attacks in my Attack Action because it says Melee Attack!"

No, you can't...

I quoted the "Melee Attacks" section of the player's handbook. Melee Attacks are used in the Attack Action, the Opportunity Attack, etc.

It does not include Cantrips.

Opportunity Attacks allow you to use one Melee Attack as a reaction. Cantrips can't be used as a reaction unless it explicitly says that you can.

That's what Warcaster is for. Take Warcaster, and you can do that.

that's nice. but the combo explicitly included warcaster. the tweet which you have been trying to use as a citation explicitly includes warcaster. warcaster lets you replace your opportunity attack with a spell.

but hey, feel free to keep murdering strawmen. nobody here has suggested that you can use a cantrip on an opportunity attack without warcaster. but if you want to imagine that they have and keep on berating people for saying something they never said, well, hey, that's your business i guess. i won't be wasting my time playing along any more though.

[JohnDoe]

that's nice. but the combo explicitly included warcaster. the tweet which you have been trying to use as a citation explicitly includes warcaster. warcaster lets you replace your opportunity attack with a spell.

but hey, feel free to keep murdering strawmen. nobody here has suggested that you can use a cantrip on an opportunity attack without warcaster. but if you want to imagine that they have and keep on berating people for saying something they never said, well, hey, that's your business i guess. i won't be wasting my time playing along any more though.

I think we're on the same page.

If you've read my posts I've said you wont be able to use Warcaster + Polearm Master, since Polearm is limited to a single Melee attack with the weapon.

If you take warcaster, however, you will be able to use BB on Attack Opportunities.
_____________

You could still use Warcaster when someone exits your reach. Yes, it intuitively requires a melee attack, but that's the point of warcaster.

It's not the Attack Opportunities + Magic = overpowered, it's the fact that Polearm master allows you to attack a creature entering your reach. In that case, it becomes insanely easy to abuse.