Help finding a high-level meat grinder

[Riviera]

Lately my players have been feeling too powerful. Wouldn't blame them, they made extremely optimized characters and as a party of 4 lvl 11 characters, they have been easily fighting against CR 18+ encounters. This is not a big deal though, we are all having fun.

They asked me to run a really hard module, one like Tomb of Horrors, so they could see how their 'super-uber' characters would just demolish the adventure. I intend to make them regret this decision. I've been searching for a couple, but I can't seem to find any with a higher level range. Most of them are 9-12 and are simply a walk in the park for these guys.

I have no problem converting from older editions to 3.5, but I'm not good with coming up with a whole adventure from scratch.

Some that I remenber discarting:
Dungeonland seemed too easy. Some already read Tomb of Horrors. Return to the temple of Elemental Evil is too low-level. I can't get my hands on Paladin in Hell where I live. Island of the Ape seems dumb (why not just fly to where the damn ape is and kill it?)

[CrazyNoob]

Rappan athuk (PC level 1-20) might be a good run, though might end up as a cake walk for level 1-5, 5-15 is ramps up but lots of easy easy easy, then find an OMG moment. Some of the alternate levels such as 3A/3B is a super challenge.. Another challenge is somehow ending up in deeper parts of the dungeon by mistake or poor decisions such as dungeon level 1 can take you to 2, 4 or 9..

[ngilop]

I do not believe that this is a case of the character being 'to powerful' it sounds like you are not running the combat encounters half decently.

There should be no way a CR 18 creature isn;t 1 round TPKing a party if played halfway intelligently.


are you bringing up a ) party against like 1 lone frost giant jarl and thinking it says CR 17? But just having him stand there not really doing anything except trying to smash things with a big stick?

Or if this is truly a case of player optimization is vastly greater than the DMs just tell them OOC 'guys im not that good/into/whatever optimization. you want to start an arms race, im pretty sure I can win and then POW drop this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?101587-D-amp-D-3-5-The-Emerald-Legion-Mass-Producing-Ikea-Tarrasques)on them.

D&D is supposed to be a gentlemen's game where everybody attempts to play at around the same style if you cannot or will not for whatever reason go to the depth of optimization that your players are, just tell them to tone it back or start getting super tippy levelTM optimized bad guys to go up against.

[yellowrocket]

Multiple smart opponents of a lower level can add up and create a higher than challenge rating difficult encounter through action economy and team cohesion.

[Caudex Capite]

I'm personally partial to Bastion of Broken Souls, though I've never actually played or run it. Still, it's high-level and at least makes the assumption that high-level casting foes will be prebuffing. Besides that, Elder Evils has some fun high level content. Skip over the first couple stages in one of the paths, so you can start at their recommended ~level 15. Or, run two of the Evils at once in different locations. At the very least, you can run them ragged.

[Riviera]

In this table, we take turns DMing. Now is mine :P

Everyone there is a heavy optimizer. I myself have no trouble optimizing stuff, but if the adventure is hard simply because the monsters are though, it's not overall that interesting. One of the reasons everyone is so damn strong is because we mix 3.5 and Pathfinder classes and feats, which sometimes lead to some absurd combos (like a Gunslinger with 10 attacks per round dealing 40 damage on each shot while targeting touch AC having a +40 to hit. Not to mention his initiative was +15 and he rolled twice. A freaking kraken could get one-shotted by this guy if not played smartly).

Don't get me wrong, even some lower CR creatures can be challeging for them when played right. Last session they almost got TPK by a single lvl 8 creature who had a Death Attack and an area of darkness and silence. However, I wanted a bit more depth than 'another Balor attacks the party, look how hard this adventure is'. Tomb of horrors had a lot of traps and puzzles that a higher level player would have an easy awnser, but a strong yet lower level one would not. That's kinda of what I'm after: an adventure that no ammount of optimization will help you, as brawl will not help.

I'll check out Rappan athuk, Bastion of Broken Souls and Elder Evils. Thanks for the suggentions!

[ksbsnowowl]

Labyrinth of Madness (http://www.dndclassics.com/product/17327/S6-Labyrinth-of-Madness-2e?term=labyrinth&it=1)

There are 3.0 / 3.5 conversions for it around the net. Let me know if you have trouble locating any; I have one saved that I could email to you.

[DarkSoul]

Labyrinth of Madness (http://www.dndclassics.com/product/17327/S6-Labyrinth-of-Madness-2e?term=labyrinth&it=1)

There are 3.0 / 3.5 conversions for it around the net.

That would be a good one. Not only are the enemies smart, but they have ways to be raised from the dead. Lots of NPC's to work with, optimize them to your heart's content.

[John Longarrow]

Personally I'd build my own adventure customized to the party. I'd also use a very evil trick a former DM pulled on us.

Make your own level 8 adventure. Has the standard 'fight through a bunch of mooks, do the boss fight, get the McGuffin' feel. Once they get the McGuffin, that is when the real adventure begins. The entire dungeon was a massive trap set off once the McGuffin is taken. New rooms are added, secret panels open, and a bunch of much nastier monsters are let loose.

If your party is mostly a smash and grab group, toss a LOT of incorporeal critters at them. Have a lot of the easy rooms they originally went through become trapped. Add in creatures immune to the traps so the party winds up fighting against both the monsters and the environment.

To keep them from going slow and methodical, have the entire place start flooding. Best of all, have the entire place protected VS teleportation / plane shifting (alternately have it work waaaaay to well and dump you in the abyss).

Let the players think they are done, then give them the big surprise.

[ksbsnowowl]

Personally I'd build my own adventure customized to the party. I'd also use a very evil trick a former DM pulled on us.

Make your own level 8 adventure. Has the standard 'fight through a bunch of mooks, do the boss fight, get the McGuffin' feel. Once they get the McGuffin, that is when the real adventure begins. The entire dungeon was a massive trap set off once the McGuffin is taken. New rooms are added, secret panels open, and a bunch of much nastier monsters are let loose.

If your party is mostly a smash and grab group, toss a LOT of incorporeal critters at them. Have a lot of the easy rooms they originally went through become trapped. Add in creatures immune to the traps so the party winds up fighting against both the monsters and the environment.

To keep them from going slow and methodical, have the entire place start flooding. Best of all, have the entire place protected VS teleportation / plane shifting (alternately have it work waaaaay to well and dump you in the abyss).

Let the players think they are done, then give them the big surprise.

This is an awesome idea, though it would take a lot of work (as any dungeon crawl design does if it is done well). I'll have to keep it in mind for the future.

[John Longarrow]

Only warning... if done right your players should get into a snit fit as they've just blown all their goodies on the 'Boss fight', just to discover that's the START of the adventure and they won't have much down time. Course your manic laughter and radiant glee at their expense may have some to do with it... >:-)

[Forderz]

Is there any reason why a group of equal-levelled NPCs with class levels wouldn't put up a fight?

[atemu1234]

Only warning... if done right your players should get into a snit fit as they've just blown all their goodies on the 'Boss fight', just to discover that's the START of the adventure and they won't have much down time. Course your manic laughter and radiant glee at their expense may have some to do with it... >:-)

Reminds me of a time I had the players perform something like 50+ sessions to kill an Epic-level Lich.

Then I revealed that he was actually serving an Elder Evil...