oathbreaker/lock build advice

[Spiritchaser]

Ok, this guy hasn't been played much due to holiday commitments on everyone's part, but if I can't play, at least I can obsess about his build

We're the bad guys... And I'm starting out pally, oathbreaker or at least lawful-angry vengence paladin until he does something beyond redemption

And he will... Oh how he will... Ah hahahah. Ahem. Sorry. That happens sometimes.

Anyway... Post pally I've been bouncing back and forth betwee sorc or lock

If I go lock I'm thinking fiend to 8 or undying to 8 or 9...

Or does it make more sense to go lock to 12? I have the sense that third level pally spells are really good...

Other than theorycraft I just don't have any idea which is better. As per earlier thoughts on this guy, he's the party's only healer, only caster, and probably the tankiest too.

Any suggestions?

[deathbymanga]

Ok, this guy hasn't been played much due to holiday commitments on everyone's part, but if I can't play, at least I can obsess about his build

We're the bad guys... And I'm starting out pally, oathbreaker or at least lawful-angry vengence paladin until he does something beyond redemption

And he will... Oh how he will... Ah hahahah. Ahem. Sorry. That happens sometimes.

Anyway... Post pally I've been bouncing back and forth betwee sorc or lock

If I go lock I'm thinking fiend to 8 or undying to 8 or 9...

Or does it make more sense to go lock to 12? I have the sense that third level pally spells are really good...

Other than theorycraft I just don't have any idea which is better. As per earlier thoughts on this guy, he's the party's only healer, only caster, and probably the tankiest too.

Any suggestions?

Maybe go Favoured Soul and go Life Domain for the healing spells? Could go all "He was the child of life and good, but there was a darkness in him a=that twisted his soul. He now brings the dead back to life and moves to destroy his father's thrown

[Spiritchaser]

Maybe go Favoured Soul and go Life Domain for the healing spells? Could go all "He was the child of life and good, but there was a darkness in him a=that twisted his soul. He now brings the dead back to life and moves to destroy his father's thrown

I'm not sure this would get me that much that 1st through 3rd level paladin spells don't get me...

Certainly metamagic and aura of Vitality make sorcerer a better choice for healing, but warlock, particularly with tome would have a lot of utility which we also probably need...

[Lonely Tylenol]

Is Warlock of the Undying Light (from Unearthed Arcana) available?

My favorite character concept (re: Paladin/Warlock) is a Paladin (or Warlock) from an order which is meant to have its members act as shining beacons of radiance, both morally and physically. They wish to spread the light to all the corners of the world and banish the shadows, both physical and metaphysical, from the world. However, through some revelation or other (such as killing off a bunch of undead amongst their allies with a flash of brilliant light, and realizing in that moment that all creatures around them, living and undead alike, cast the same shadows), the character is led to believe that shadow exists only as a function of light, and thus, the shadow (that exists in men's hearts) can only be truly extinguished by snuffing the flame of light which casts the shadow. In other words, only those who are truly radiant (bastions of light) are fit to live free of corruption, and it's their responsibility to extinguish the light of life from anyone and everyone impure enough to cast a shadow upon the world, essentially taking the order's ideals to an extreme.

The most insidious part of all is how they cast judgment: they radiate a bright light (either using their own body as a conduit of the light, or their weapon), and they kill anything which produces a shadow when held to that light, without remorse or further judgment.

Naturally, this causes them to fall from their oath.

The character itself is an Oathbreaker (formerly Oath of the Ancients) Paladin 7+/Warlock of the Undying Light 3+ (Tome). I prefer to think of the Warlock part as the subject of scholarly/monastic learning, and the Paladin to reflect martial training. With the Undying Light 1 and Oathbreaker 7 abilities, you end up adding the following ability scores to your various attack options' damage on each hit (let me know if you see a trend here):

Eldritch Blast: Charisma x1
Sacred Flame: Charisma x1
Fire Bolt: Charisma x1
Shillelagh: Charisma x2
Greenflame Blade: Strength or Dexterity x1 (based on weapon), Charisma x2
Greenflame Blade with Shillelagh: Charisma x3
Searing Smite, Branding Smite: Charisma x1 (plus whatever you were doing with your Attack action, usually either Charisma x1 and Strength/Dexterity x1 with a normal attack, or Charisma x2 with Shillelagh)

Plus, you can Hex enemies with your bonus action to just pile on damage, if you don't need to be concentrating on anything more important and just want a lot of damage...

...Plus, you get Charisma to saves, good Armor Class (from proficiency in everything), and can function as a sort of secondary healer.

Essentially, you add your Charisma to everything, sometimes multiple times, have a lot of diverse (mostly cantrip-related) attack options, can switch-hit in combat (both melee/ranged and offense/defense), and I like the flavor of it quite a lot. Probably why I keep bringing it up in this subforum. :thog:

[Spiritchaser]

Thanks for the notes and the reply and yes that is available, and it would fit his background... Though it's slightly less like how I see him

Mechanically it's a lot of damage, especially if you have Shileighley, polearm master and elemental weapon, you could end up adding +3 charisma to three attacks each round... Assuming hits (and with +2 to hit, things aren't bad that way...)That'd be 45 damage just from cha. That said I'll mostly be casting bless

But single target melee damage is the one thing we DO have. Too much of a good thing can be terrific, but fiend gets me better AoE with fireball, and better survival with thp and dark ones luck (though radiant's "I'm not dead button" is pretty cool). All of these can get rituals through tome.

Undead patron gets me contagion with an 11/9 build which is almost worth the price of admission on its own, and with a level 5 slot, bestow curse is concentration free, so a big bad can be hexed, cursed and horribly diseased... Which should really mess them up.

FS war gets me some good casting versatility including spirit guardians, which gets ua some nice tanking control, and it gets us a lengthened aura of vitality, 140 hp for a 3rd level slot and a sorcery point... Plus extra tankiness from shield.

Conceptually these all work, weather the presence in his head is a dark and hungry God, a fiend, the intrusion of another plane... And I don't have to decide until level 7...

But thanks again for the reply. Theorycraft is one thing, but a note that something actually works in game is obviously much more.

[MrStabby]

Oathbreaker paladins are great as necromancer builds at higher levels. If you take 9 levels in paladin you can get zombies, boosted by aura of hate, crusader's mantle and when they would die they get to use your aura of protection to remain conscious. Adding caster levels after level 9 gives you more spell slots you need.

The advantage of this is it is a bit more fun than a wizard necromancer - fewer but more damaging minions means less book keeping and having a powerful melee character on top is a nice bonus.


Adding pretty much any caster to this can be good. For stats obviously bard, sorc and warlock are best suited. As you have caster levels already I think Sorc or Bard are the better options as they hive you higher level spell slots.

For me the pros of each are:

Sorc - metamagic, quickened hold person+smite is brutal. Although hold person + 6 zombie/skeleton attacks is also pretty nasty. Generally more opportunity to keep smiting longer through the day.

Lore bard - magical secrets lets you get some good stuff. Armor of agathys, counterspell, dissonant whispers etc. all can improve you immensely. The problem is you will generally need a few more levels for it to come online.

If you do want warlock, then you get some of these advantages anyway and can probably build a bigger undead army. Pact of the tome is good for getting shillelagh so you are less MAD. Still to get the most from this you would need a level 5 in warlock so it is very late game.

[Lonely Tylenol]

But thanks again for the reply. Theorycraft is one thing, but a note that something actually works in game is obviously much more.

The build works in-game, and has no reason not to, but I digress.

If you are trying to blast with AoE spells, you're probably better off forgoing Warlock entirely and going Sorcerer instead. Warlock spells are less numerous, cap at a lower level, and have no real ways of being amplified within the class (except, of course, for Undying Light). Sorcerers get more spell slots, can augment spells to a higher level, and get metamagic, and Dragon Sorcerers can add their Charisma mod to damage. It just offers so much more in this regard. There's little reason to go Fiendlock over Sorcerer for this end, unless you are getting short rests after every combat, in which case always having your highest-level spell slots and Dark One's Own Luck always online makes it decent, but you still lose out on spell slots for higher-level spells, since Warlock doesn't play nice with anyone for multiclassing purposes.

If you are focusing on single-target or at-will damage, cantrips are king, and Warlock does that better than anyone else, with some debuffing options in spells. But you aren't an AoE blaster.