Totem VS Berserker

[Anime Squirrel]

A friend and I are discussing the difference between the 2 barbarian paths and id like some outside opinions. I believe totem is over all stronger marked heavily By bear totem 1 and 3, and the over all variety of RP flavors the other totems offer . The lack of extra attack from frenzy is easy enough to make up for.

His argument is that without Bear 1, Totem has nothing to bring to the table comparatively. He emphasizes how strong Frenzy can be and the fear and charm cancellation/immunity .

IMO Frenzy loses a lot of steam after 1 or 2 encounters because of the multiple stacks of exhaustion. Making up for this at higher levels in a way with nearly unlimited rage duration.
He disagrees because he doesn't think Its that big a deal based of how often your in combat. But our table mates tend to hit first and ask questions later. So i feel after 1 encounter a day ,with 2 or 3 expected, It loses it usefulness too quickly.

What do you all think?

[Foxhound438]

SCAG has 2 extra totem spirits, both give a bonus action attack (kind of for elk). Otherwise there's PAM and GWM feats to get the extra attack.

[CaptAl]

As a damage sponge, bear totem is only rivaled by druids at level 2 and 20. Zerker frenzy is great if its the BBEG and he has to die right now, otherwise exhaustion is a pretty steep price to pay. There's other ways to get a bonus action attack that don't make you a liability the rest of the day.

[Mongobear]

Berserker is mostly for the all-out offensive build, Great Weapon Master, Polearm Master, etc. If you have a way to use your bonus action without relying on Frenzy, there is no feature specific to Berserker that requires you to be in a Frenzy, its all "When you're Raging, do X" Berserker is perfectly playable as long as you build yourself to use Bonus Actions outside of the class feature, such as the 1d4 attack with Polearm Master, or even TWFing even though thats less optimal.

EDIT for explanation: If you are optimizing to take advantage of Polearm/Great Weapons, theres not much difference between a Bonus action for (1d10 + mods) compared to (1d4 + mods) maybe ~ 3 damage on average. You can go Berserker and just ignore Frenzy, unless you REALLY want the chance at that extra 1-6 damage from a d10 attack.

Totem on the otherhand, I view as the Defensive/Tanking option. It still has almost all of the offensive capabilities of Berserker, but it gains a LOT of good Defensive options from Bear Totem, in the form of Resistance to 99% of attacks in the game, and the 3rd stage Disadvantage effect. Unfortunately, not a whole lot of the other Totems have anything to really compare with what Bear gives, Wolf is ok if you have an abundance of melee classes and/or Rogues, but Eagle is pretty sub-par, and the SCAG totems are kinda meh.


TL;DR - If you make a Berserker with GWM and Polearm Master for your feats, you will destroy the battlefield. If you go Bear Totem, and build for a Tanky/Balanced approach to combat, you wont pack as much of a punch, but will last longer on the field to continually attack.

[bid]

You have 6-8 fights a day and rage in 2-3 of them. Hope the boss fight is the last of the day.

The bonus attack is easy to get with GWM ot PM.

[Nu]

Exhaustion is a pretty big penalty, in particular if you fight anywhere near the 6-8 encounters per day standard. There are other ways enemies can stop you from hitting them too, like casting various spells that neutralize you for a round, or going invisible or out of range.

The other problem with Frenzy is that you can get a bonus action attack from other sources. Usually Polearm Master and/or Great Weapon Master. These feats are all upside, unlike Frenzy, which has a steep cost. And since you only get one bonus action per turn, this will cut down on a lot of Frenzy's usefulness.

In contrast, nobody takes damage like a bear barbarian. And hey, tiger spirit gives you two free skill proficiencies at level 6. That's pretty nice.

[Finieous]

I think it's campaign-dependent, to some extent. However, here are my opinions:

1. Bear resistance may be the single most overrated class ability in 5e. It's good. Probably a bit worse than the Tough feat, significantly worse than something like Second Wind that doesn't get all the hoopla. If you're in a campaign with a lot of non-S/B/P/P damage, obviously, it gets better. I haven't played it, but assume something like PotA has a lot of elemental damage. Even then, while optimizers tend to have the right idea about pure damage mitigation, for example on saving throws (Dex saves = "It's just hit point damage"), bear resistance offers some psychological security blanket that people seriously overrate.

2. If you're going totem, Wolf is far superior in the right party.

3. Bear totem is better than Frenzy, but berserker is better at 6th level, 10th level and 14th level. Mindless Rage is not only better than any 6th level totem option, IMO it's better than bear resistance for a barbarian.

4. Barbarians have no nova capability. Frenzy isn't really a "nova," because it lasts an entire rage, but it's more like DPR distribution management. You'll do a bit less damage for most fights during the day compared to a PAM barbarian, but you can choose one fight a day to significantly out-damage it.

So in the right campaign, I prefer a GWM berserker to a GWM+PAM totem barbarian. With the extra feat, you can take Tough if you really need that security blanket (and you'll get a better, more versatile one). Or, if you recognize that you don't need the security blanket because it's just hit point damage and you have a lot of hit points, you can take something more fun. You're already better than the totem barb against mind-affecting magic (the barbarian's #1 enemy), so maybe double down and pick up Resilient (Wisdom) or Mage Slayer. I prefer the latter, because an active solution to the problem seems to fit the barbarian better than the passive one.

[Strill]

Wolf Totem is way, way better than anything else. Free advantage for all your melee allies is nuts.

[Foxhound438]

Wolf Totem is way, way better than anything else. Free advantage for all your melee allies is nuts.

i think a lot of people underestimate this because a lot of DM's use the flanking rule, which trivializes it.

[Strill]

i think a lot of people underestimate this because a lot of DM's use the flanking rule, which trivializes it.

Flanking trivializes Barbarians in general. Without Reckless Attack, they don't have much going for them. It also trivializes a hell of a lot of other classes too.

[JumboWheat01]

i think a lot of people underestimate this because a lot of DM's use the flanking rule, which trivializes it.

Plus if you're the only melee unit in your party, it's completely worthless, as it doesn't work on you.

What? I could happen. An outlander party of a land druid, archer ranger, barbarian, maybe even a sorcerer who are much more "natural" with their arcane magics. It could work!

[RulesJD]

I think it's campaign-dependent, to some extent. However, here are my opinions:

1. Bear resistance may be the single most overrated class ability in 5e. It's good. Probably a bit worse than the Tough feat, significantly worse than something like Second Wind that doesn't get all the hoopla. If you're in a campaign with a lot of non-S/B/P/P damage, obviously, it gets better. I haven't played it, but assume something like PotA has a lot of elemental damage. Even then, while optimizers tend to have the right idea about pure damage mitigation, for example on saving throws (Dex saves = "It's just hit point damage"), bear resistance offers some psychological security blanket that people seriously overrate.

2. If you're going totem, Wolf is far superior in the right party.

3. Bear totem is better than Frenzy, but berserker is better at 6th level, 10th level and 14th level. Mindless Rage is not only better than any 6th level totem option, IMO it's better than bear resistance for a barbarian.

4. Barbarians have no nova capability. Frenzy isn't really a "nova," because it lasts an entire rage, but it's more like DPR distribution management. You'll do a bit less damage for most fights during the day compared to a PAM barbarian, but you can choose one fight a day to significantly out-damage it.

So in the right campaign, I prefer a GWM berserker to a GWM+PAM totem barbarian. With the extra feat, you can take Tough if you really need that security blanket (and you'll get a better, more versatile one). Or, if you recognize that you don't need the security blanket because it's just hit point damage and you have a lot of hit points, you can take something more fun. You're already better than the totem barb against mind-affecting magic (the barbarian's #1 enemy), so maybe double down and pick up Resilient (Wisdom) or Mage Slayer. I prefer the latter, because an active solution to the problem seems to fit the barbarian better than the passive one.

Yeah I'm going to take issue with that.

Honestly, I agree that Totem barb doesn't offer much, but my god what it offers is godly. You think toughness is marginally better? Yeah, no. Toughness adds double your level in HP, so 2-40 hp. Resist all effectively doubles your entire HP for 3+ combats per day. If you're facing a lot of dex saves (fireball, lightning bolt, etc) then it effectively quintuples it because you'll probably be making your save for a total of 1/4 damage.

Simply put, there is no understating how good Bear totem is. Short rest heal for between 2-30 damage is okay, but again, not even remotely close in usefulness.

With that said, the ultimate build is of course going Bear 3/Fighter whatever. Adding all that extra rage damage + ASIs (At-will Advantage + GWM + Sent + Champion/BM maneuvers = lol) advantage on dex saves + double your HP for straight up face tanking + Action Surge + effectively doubling Second Wind....the list goes on. It combos both one of the most survivable classes with one of the highest single target damaging. Fighter straight can't pull that off from the lack of advantage generation and half-damage. Paladin can top it but only for a period of time until the spell slots run out.

[Finieous]

Toughness adds double your level in HP, so 2-40 hp. Resist all effectively doubles your entire HP for 3+ combats per day.

Bear resistance doesn't come anywhere close to doubling your hit points, unless all you're facing is non-S/B/P/P damage. I'm almost certain you realize this, but the way the above is written it's not entirely clear, so: All barbarians resist S/B/P damage exactly the same. The totem ability only grants resistance to non-slashing, bludgeoning, piercing and psychic damage.

So how much damage do you take in an average adventuring day? I think a reasonable estimate is 1.5x your maximum hit points. In an easier game or a "Combat as War" game, you're probably taking considerably less, but 1.5 seems like a solid estimate on which to base a comparison.

Now, how much is non-S/B/P/P damage? I've been tracking this in my current game, which is at 15th level, and the average seems to be about 25%. Obviously, it's pretty volatile. There will be days when you take none, and days when you take more, but again 25% seems a reasonable estimate. Adjust however you want for the purposes of your own campaign.

Next, how often are you raging when you take the non-S/B/P/P damage? This is going to be low at low levels and high at high levels, but I'll say 80%. Even at 20th level with unlimited raged, you'll hit some traps or lose initiative and take some damage you can't resist, so 80% actually seems pretty generous. Again, adjust however you like for the purposes of your own comparison.

Okay, so a 3rd level barbarian has about 32 hit points, and he's taking 48 points of damage over the course of an average adventuring day. Of that, 12 points is from sources other than slashing, bludgeoning, piercing and psychic. Of that, about 10 is taken while he's raging, so he resists 5 hit points of damage. The Tough feat? It's worth 6 hit points at 3rd level. However, those hit points are usable against any form of damage and even when you're not raging. Moreover, because the feat increases your maximum hit points, they can be refreshed with heals and rests throughout the adventuring day, so you're playing with those "house" hit points over and over again.

This scales all the way to 20. Second Wind is good for about 25 hit points over the course of an adventuring day at 3rd level. It doesn't scale as well, but it's still about twice as good as bear resistance at 20th level.

Once again, you may find that my numbers don't match your game, so make your own comparison. If you do, you'll probably find that you're getting less out of it than you think you do. You certainly won't be "effectively doubling your hit points."

[SharkForce]

berserker is pretty good in a featless game, but kinda lousy in a game with feats because most of the major benefits are given away through feats. reaction attack? polearm master will probably give just about as many. bonus action attacks? polearm master gives one that is almost as good, but in every single fight of the day. and if damage apart from bludgeoning, piercing, and slashing is rare (i'm not sold on that personally... poison alone can be a huge portion of damage taken) to the point of devaluing bear 1, just how common is mind control in your games?

totem is just a lot more versatile, and the key features are given away with feats. in a featless game, the ability of berserker to just get ridiculous in one major fight is worth something. in a game with feats, it's barely even a noticeable increase in damage.

(and on a side note, none of the rage abilities ever make your rage last for more than a minute, so no, berserker doesn't just get to frenzy for an entire day at high levels... you can renew it, but it still ends).

[p_johnston]

Totem is almost universally better.

1)frenzy is a once a day ability. It should read "can only be used on what you think is the final fight of the day or if your cleric is willing to spend a fifth level spell after battle." Exhaustion is absolutely brutal. You CANNOt have a character walking around exhausted.

2)the level 6, 10, and fourteen abilities of berserk er are better. Not by enough though. Non basic damage comes up more then fear/charm and I actually don't like intimidating presence much (the save probably isn't to hard seeing as it's based off an charisma and you'd probably rather be just hitting the person instead of fearing them.) Retaliation is awesome though.

3)on the idea of wolf vs bear. Wolf starts becoming comparable if you have at least two other comparable front line fighters, but it is hard to beat bear. A lot of the scariest things in the monster manual do either magical or non basic damage. Being able to effectively shrug off Dragon's breath, Beholders, most damage spells, etc at choice multiple times a day is one of the strongest third level abilities in the game.

[MaxWilson]

A friend and I are discussing the difference between the 2 barbarian paths and id like some outside opinions. I believe totem is over all stronger marked heavily By bear totem 1 and 3, and the over all variety of RP flavors the other totems offer . The lack of extra attack from frenzy is easy enough to make up for.

His argument is that without Bear 1, Totem has nothing to bring to the table comparatively. He emphasizes how strong Frenzy can be and the fear and charm cancellation/immunity .

IMO Frenzy loses a lot of steam after 1 or 2 encounters because of the multiple stacks of exhaustion. Making up for this at higher levels in a way with nearly unlimited rage duration.
He disagrees because he doesn't think Its that big a deal based of how often your in combat. But our table mates tend to hit first and ask questions later. So i feel after 1 encounter a day ,with 2 or 3 expected, It loses it usefulness too quickly.

What do you all think?

Polearm Master is probably better than Frenzy, and renders Frenzy almost redundant except for the lost ASI.

Bear totem has the advantage when fighting things with magical weapons or elemental attacks; it isn't indispensable (e.g. battlerager is arguably pretty good too) but it makes it harder to bypass rage resistance, which is nice.

Immunity to fear could potentially be nice but is sort of a weak effect (1st level Heroism spell cancels fear too, and I believe Calm Emotions does too). Immunity to charm is more useful out of combat, and Berserkers are not immune to charm when not raging, so that immunity is much more niche.

Higher levels don't have unlimited rage duration BTW; rage still only lasts a minute.

Final verdict: Berserker isn't bad, because the base Barbarian class isn't bad. But Berserker doesn't add much, and Bear Totem adds something, so Bear Totem and Battlerager win.

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Plus if you're the only melee unit in your party, it's completely worthless, as it doesn't work on you.

What? I could happen. An outlander party of a land druid, archer ranger, barbarian, maybe even a sorcerer who are much more "natural" with their arcane magics. It could work!

Of course it can happen. Having a bunch of ranged specialists and one melee specialist is a powerful party configuration in 5E. Arguably this is the optimal configuration, especially if everyone is highly mobile and the melee specialist can still function at range.

===========================================


With that said, the ultimate build is of course going Bear 3/Fighter whatever. Adding all that extra rage damage + ASIs (At-will Advantage + GWM + Sent + Champion/BM maneuvers = lol) advantage on dex saves + double your HP for straight up face tanking + Action Surge + effectively doubling Second Wind....the list goes on. It combos both one of the most survivable classes with one of the highest single target damaging. Fighter straight can't pull that off from the lack of advantage generation and half-damage. Paladin can top it but only for a period of time until the spell slots run out.

Eh. If you're going for Ultimate Tank, you'll probably be better off with temp HP on kill instead of Second Wind. So, go GWM Polearm Master Barbearian 3/Monk of Long Death X or Barbearian 3/Fiendish Bladelock X for 4 attacks per round at Reckless advantage for up to d10+17 damage per hit, plus up to 22 temp HP per kill. Unlike a normal barbarian you won't be useless at long range.

Don't forget to team up with an Inspiring Leader Superhealer (Life Cleric 1/Sorc 3/Lore Bard 6/Warlock 5) who heals roughly 2500 HP per long rest plus 480 more per short rest not counting the extra temp HP from Inspiring Leader. :)

Huh. Now I want to play this character. :)

[bid]

So, go GWM Polearm Master Barbearian 3/Monk of Long Death X or Barbearian 3/Fiendish Bladelock X for 4 attacks per round at Reckless advantage for up to d10+17 damage per hit, plus up to 22 temp HP per kill.
4 attacks? How do you get 4 attacks without fighter 11?

[MaxWilson]

4 attacks? How do you get 4 attacks without fighter 11?

I'm counting the bonus attack and reaction attack. I should have specified "up to four attacks." Not guaranteed in all situations.

Don't forget the way Barbearian combos with Armor of Agathys V. Yeah, that would be a fun character, even before he gets 9th level spells and starts True Polymorphing himself.

[Elite Hatter]

I'm the friend Anime Squirrel referred to.

My argument is basically Mindless rage alone is better than all the totems. And Bear totem is too strong. Seriously who even picks the others at level 3. I'm personally a fan of wolf myself. But like it's been mentioned, it's underrated because of how good Bear is. Moving past level 3. Everything else is ties to raging, not going into Frenzy.

I also agree taking a feat to get a bonus action attack is decently steep. And after level 15 I believe you can stay in rage until you decide to end it.

Another thought, gold is so easy to come by in 5e just buy multiple scrolls of Greater Restoration for your cleric to use if you think your going to be frenzied all day.

Overall I think the berserker gets a bad rap because of an optional feature that is gained early and loses how detrimental it is as you level. The imo Berserker has better sub class features than totem overall. Except Lvl 3 Bear, but that's just ridiculously good. Not saying totem is bad, just that it may be a tad overrated for only a few good points

[Finieous]

Immunity to fear could potentially be nice but is sort of a weak effect (1st level Heroism spell cancels fear too, and I believe Calm Emotions does too). Immunity to charm is more useful out of combat, and Berserkers are not immune to charm when not raging, so that immunity is much more niche.


Being frightened or charmed in combat is likely to drop you out of rage, even if it only lasts one round. As for the spells, these are great if you have a cleric or bard in the party, the cleric has heroism prepared and the bard chose calm emotions as one of his known spells. Even then, the barbarian has probably already been dropped out of rage, if the spells were cast reactively, and they use up the caster's concentration slot and 1st and 2nd-level spell slots, respectively. Also, while the berserker isn't immune to charm when not raging, raging suppresses it even when he was already under the effect.

And, of course, one can say the same thing about the few hit points of non-S/B/P/P damage the berserker will take in an average adventuring day that a bear would have resisted. The cleric or bard can just heal it. Only difference is, taking damage keeps you in rage, while fear and charm drop you out of it.



Higher levels don't have unlimited rage duration BTW; rage still only lasts a minute.


I'm not sure if this was directed at me, but when I said "unlimited rages" above, I was referring to the 20th level ability. Unlimited in quantity, not duration.

BTW, since others have mentioned it, Intimidating Presence is best used out of combat. In fact, it's the perfect "social skill" for a barbarian. He accompanies the "face" on whatever interaction is happening and just stands there and glowers at the opposition. They fail a Wisdom check, they're frightened and take disadvantage on all their ability checks as long as the barbarian keeps glowering.

Finally, Frenzy isn't great, but that first level of exhaustion is really no big deal. It just means you've had your time in the spotlight and you may need to step back or get some support from others until you get a long rest. In combat, Athletics is the only thing really likely to come up, and if you still have rages, you offset the disadvantage. Likewise, you'll offset disadvantage on initiative, and you can rage your way out of surprise. Outside of combat, you may need a guidance or Help to get you through.

[MaxWilson]

Overall I think the berserker gets a bad rap because of an optional feature that is gained early and loses how detrimental it is as you level. The imo Berserker has better sub class features than totem overall. Except Lvl 3 Bear, but that's just ridiculously good. Not saying totem is bad, just that it may be a tad overrated for only a few good points

The level 14 Wolf ability is pretty sweet too, though some people like Bear 14 better. I like Commune With Nature too. But, neither of these are enough to persuade me to go past Barb 3, so on balance I agree--the Totem Barbarian is front-loaded and a bit overrated as a whole package. Barbs as a whole are overrated IMO.

=============================================


Being frightened or charmed in combat is likely to drop you out of rage, even if it only lasts one round.

It shouldn't--you can always cut on yourself, and a reasonable DM would make that an auto-damage effect. (Even if he makes you roll attacks, you are quite likely to succeed, especially if you Recklessly attack yourself. Heh.)

The point about Heroism/Calm Emotions was not to suggest those spells will always be available (though Paladins and Bards both get Heroism so it is pretty common). It was just to point out that the effect is only part of a first-level spell, ergo weak.

[djreynolds]

I'm the friend Anime Squirrel referred to.

My argument is basically Mindless rage alone is better than all the totems. And Bear totem is too strong. Seriously who even picks the others at level 3. I'm personally a fan of wolf myself. But like it's been mentioned, it's underrated because of how good Bear is. Moving past level 3. Everything else is ties to raging, not going into Frenzy.

I also agree taking a feat to get a bonus action attack is decently steep. And after level 15 I believe you can stay in rage until you decide to end it.

Another thought, gold is so easy to come by in 5e just buy multiple scrolls of Greater Restoration for your cleric to use if you think your going to be frenzied all day.

Overall I think the berserker gets a bad rap because of an optional feature that is gained early and loses how detrimental it is as you level. The imo Berserker has better sub class features than totem overall. Except Lvl 3 Bear, but that's just ridiculously good. Not saying totem is bad, just that it may be a tad overrated for only a few good points

It is definitely party dependent. And also if you are going 20 levels. If your are the main melee guy and your cleric is up to par, berserker is worth it. If you are with a paladin, wolf totem is quiet nice to have. If you have a rogue darting in and out, bear totem works just fine.

[Elite Hatter]

The level 14 Wolf ability is pretty sweet too, though some people like Bear 14 better.

It is. But a free attack as a reaction. Not feat needed to get it. Getting more dpr can't be seen as a bad thing. Auto knocking large or smaller creatures prone is nice. But I feel the retaliation is better.

[Anime Squirrel]

I'm the friend Anime Squirrel referred to.

My argument is basically Mindless rage alone is better than all the totems. And Bear totem is too strong. Seriously who even picks the others at level 3. I'm personally a fan of wolf myself. But like it's been mentioned, it's underrated because of how good Bear is. Moving past level 3. Everything else is ties to raging, not going into Frenzy.

I also agree taking a feat to get a bonus action attack is decently steep. And after level 15 I believe you can stay in rage until you decide to end it.

Another thought, gold is so easy to come by in 5e just buy multiple scrolls of Greater Restoration for your cleric to use if you think your going to be frenzied all day.

Overall I think the berserker gets a bad rap because of an optional feature that is gained early and loses how detrimental it is as you level. The imo Berserker has better sub class features than totem overall. Except Lvl 3 Bear, but that's just ridiculously good. Not saying totem is bad, just that it may be a tad overrated for only a few good points

Frenzy is arguably useless. Everything else is niche. so is totem but it has more uses over all IMO. and rage cant end early at high levels as someone else pointed out ( had to look it up to confirm)
With bound accuracy taking feats is only steep if you had bad rolls.

Point buy and standard array easily allow for 1 to 2 feats if not 3. Extra damage while raging. advantage nearly all the time with at the very least P/S/B resistance can more than make up for leaving str or con at 18 + capstone.

[MaxWilson]

It is. But a free attack as a reaction. Not feat needed to get it. Getting more dpr can't be seen as a bad thing. Auto knocking large or smaller creatures prone is nice. But I feel the retaliation is better.

If you know how to use free proning (no save!), it is better than a free attack. Reduces your enemy to a single opportunity attack at disadvantage per round instead of a full attack sequence. Cutting your damage taken by (say) 80% is like increasing your DPR by 400%, which is better than increasing your DPR by 30% with reaction attacks.

Of course it doesn't work against Huge/Gargantuan creatures, and it doesn't work against creatures with a movement speed over 60', or groups of creatures, or creatures with ranged attacks. Hence, why I prefer to multiclass after Barb 3 instead of gunning for Wolf 14. But if you happen to hit level 14 as a Barbarian, it's quite nice.

[djreynolds]

Frenzy is arguably useless. Everything else is niche. so is totem but it has more uses over all IMO. and rage cant end early at high levels as someone else pointed out ( had to look it up to confirm)
With bound accuracy taking feats is only steep if you had bad rolls.

Point buy and standard array easily allow for 1 to 2 feats if not 3. Extra damage while raging. advantage nearly all the time with at the very least P/S/B resistance can more than make up for leaving str or con at 18 + capstone.

And the PHB says you can pick and choose totems, cheesy, but you can take bear at 3 and wolf at 14, and forget reckless attack. And then just take resilient intelligence to help out with psychic damage.

[MaxWilson]

And the PHB says you can pick and choose totems, cheesy, but you can take bear at 3 and wolf at 14, and forget reckless attack. And then just take resilient intelligence to help out with psychic damage.

Wow, that's the first time I've ever heard anyone suggest taking Resilient (Int). You must play in really mind flayer-heavy campaigns.

I'd suggest taking Lucky instead, which is about as good as Resilient unless you're making a ton of saves per day--and it doesn't lock you into using it on Int saves exclusively, and can be used to (probably) negate crits and other bad things that happen at exactly the wrong moment.

[Finieous]

It shouldn't--you can always cut on yourself, and a reasonable DM would make that an auto-damage effect. (Even if he makes you roll attacks, you are quite likely to succeed, especially if you Recklessly attack yourself. Heh.)


I don't think most DMs are likely to rule that way, but yes, if you can so easily neutralize the biggest limitation on rage, then the 15th level Persistent Rage ability is meaningless, let alone the 6th level Mindless Rage ability.



The point about Heroism/Calm Emotions was not to suggest those spells will always be available (though Paladins and Bards both get Heroism so it is pretty common). It was just to point out that the effect is only part of a first-level spell, ergo weak.

That doesn't follow. Bless is a 1st level spell, but that doesn't mean the effect is weak. Likewise, the somewhat improved effect of a 2nd-level concentration spell every time you rage isn't a weak ability.

Honestly, I think if they'd made Mindless Rage the 3rd level ability and people actually bothered to quantify bear resistance, most would probably rate them about the same. I personally prefer Mindless Rage because hit points are the one resource a barbarian has lots of, but I could accept that they're roughly equivalent.

Then you'd have people howling about how totem barbs suck because berserkers get a bonus action attack for one rage/day, while totem barbs get to carry more stuff or see farther.

[MaxWilson]

Honestly, I think if they'd made Mindless Rage the 3rd level ability and people actually bothered to quantify bear resistance, most would probably rate them about the same. I personally prefer Mindless Rage because hit points are the one resource a barbarian has lots of, but I could accept that they're roughly equivalent.

You know, I've been thinking that regular Rage only gave resistance to non-magical P/S/B attacks, but I just re-read the Rage description, and in fact it grants resistance to all P/S/B attacks. With that in mind, I think I agree with you: Bear 3 is overrated and partially redundant. Mostly serves to manage risk in niche scenarios like dragon-fighting. I can't think of any fear or charm that I'm especially afraid of, or Mindless Rage might be more attractive to me.

[Finieous]

You know, I've been thinking that regular Rage only gave resistance to non-magical P/S/B attacks, but in fact it grant resistance to all P/S/B attacks. With that in mind, I think I agree with you: Bear 3 is overrated and partially redundant. Mostly serves to manage risk in niche scenarios like dragon-fighting. I can't think of any fear or charm that I'm especially afraid of, or Mindless Rage might be more attractive to me.

You've never been on a ship in demon-shark-infested waters when the evil sirens on the rocks started singing. :smallbiggrin:

Happy New Year!

[Anime Squirrel]

You've never been on a ship in demon-shark-infested waters when the evil sirens on the rocks started singing. :smallbiggrin:

Happy New Year!

that sounds like a table flipping situation.

[Mongobear]

I'm the friend Anime Squirrel referred to.

My argument is basically Mindless rage alone is better than all the totems. And Bear totem is too strong. Seriously who even picks the others at level 3. I'm personally a fan of wolf myself. But like it's been mentioned, it's underrated because of how good Bear is. Moving past level 3. Everything else is ties to raging, not going into Frenzy.


Because of how its worded, you arent forced to take the same Totem ability from the same animal at each level**. and SCAG added a couple nice options for the level 6 totem, its just that Bears 3 and 14 ability are so good, that the 6 choice is the only one that can be swapped without no real drawback. For the level 6 options in SCAG, Tiger is a decent choice, 2 bonus skill proficiencies from a list of 4 is pretty nice, although you probably already have 2-3 of them from character creation, so you might only get 1 extra, unless you planned not to. The Travel speed increase is useful, but has no actual in-combat benefit, you can just cover more distance when traveling to far away lands. As far as the level 15 choices, Bear again is just an auto-win, imo. Wolf is ok, if youre building a Polearm/Sentinle/Shove build and trying to control the battlefield, but that just seems bleh for a Barbarian, you really just want to smash things in the face while shrugging off the counter-smashes aimed at your skull.But SCAG's additions each get a way to Bonus Action attack under specific conditions, so they're decent.

Berserker is the choice you make if your sole purpose in life is to just murderdeathkill everything you come across. You just grab the biggest weapon you can, take GWM/Polearm Master and then do your best Dynasty Warriors Lu Bu impression until you finally die of old age, if at all. The level you choose the path may as well say "At level 3 pick an archetype, you'll never gain the actual benefits until Level 6." Until my DM house-ruled Exhaustion to work differently, I never Frenzied unless I KNEW we were on the last fight of the day, its just not worth it. But at level 6, you gain immunity to 2 of the 5 or so things that can actually stop you, thats huge. Not advantage on the saves, or resistance to damage, but total 100% IMMUNITY... Yeah, thats good. 10 is kinda mediocre, unless for some reason you have an absurdly high Charisma, so most likely not unless youre rolling stats. AL/Point buy will never care about your mental stats, except maybe Wisdom for saves. Retalliation at 14 is pretty damn impressive, its pretty much Extra Attack(3), you just have to wait until something is stupid and pokes you with a pointy stick.

**Sidenote: Because this wording exists, but doesnt make sense that your switching such an important decision of totems, many DMs houserule it in varying degrees of differences. Mine personally makes it so I have to have 2 abilities from the same animal, I can swap a single choice while leveling. So Bear/Tiger{SCAG)/Bear is how I went.)



I also agree taking a feat to get a bonus action attack is decently steep. And after level 15 I believe you can stay in rage until you decide to end it.


Assuming Variant human and standard point buy, you can do 15/14/15/8/10/8, give the +1s to Str/Con and take GWM at level 1. At 4, take Polearm Master, 8 +2 Str, 12 +2 Str, 16 +2 Con, 19 +2 Con, and by 20, youd be 24/14/24/8/11/8. You would literally mow down almost everything, have no need to Frenzy because GWM and Polearm Master give you all the Bonus Actions youll ever need. If you dont want Polearm Master, swap it for Lucky, or another +2 to Dex/Wis depending on mileage.

The level 15 ability just makes it so that your Rages dont end early from not attacking/taking damage for a whole round. You are still limited to the daily uses until you get to level 20's 'Unlimited' Rages.



Another thought, gold is so easy to come by in 5e just buy multiple scrolls of Greater Restoration for your cleric to use if you think your going to be frenzied all day.


This is true, but technically, magic items arent exactly in the same "Magic Mart" system like they used to be, I dont even think they give specific prices for them, but that could work out if your DM hires out a local scribe's guild to pump out Scrolls for you.



Overall I think the berserker gets a bad rap because of an optional feature that is gained early and loses how detrimental it is as you level. The imo Berserker has better sub class features than totem overall. Except Lvl 3 Bear, but that's just ridiculously good. Not saying totem is bad, just that it may be a tad overrated for only a few good points.


The only thing bad going for the Berserker is that level 3 is effectively a 'Dead Level' except in the absolute most extreme circumstances. Comparing it to Totem Warrior is like Comparing a Fighter that goes for GWM to one that went for Defense/Protection--Theyre meant for different roles on the battlefield. Berserkers git pissT and make stuff dead, Totem Warriors(assuming Bear, because it is by far the best option) absorb hits and control the battlefield. It is possible to mix this up a bit, and make a Murdersmash character out of Bear Totem, but Berserker is better at straight facial destruction, Totems can just take a beating more severely.

[MaxWilson]

You've never been on a ship in demon-shark-infested waters when the evil sirens on the rocks started singing. :smallbiggrin:

Interestingly, Mindless Rage wouldn't protect you for more than one round in that situation, so you'd still get eaten by demon sharks. So rather than making Berserkers attractive to me, you're making Bards and Paladins attractive, and also earplugs and Shadow Monks (for Silence).

[Anime Squirrel]

My basic issue is totem is the "tank/other options" path and berserker is the "KILL ALL THE THINGS" path but the damage difference is almost non existent. bear 3 allows for more general survivability and if your dead you cant make other things dead.

[Finieous]

Interestingly, Mindless Rage wouldn't protect you for more than one round in that situation, so you'd still get eaten by demon sharks. So rather than making Berserkers attractive to me, you're making Bards and Paladins attractive, and also earplugs and Shadow Monks (for Silence).

Why's that?

[Malifice]

You dont have to frenzy. You can 'just' rage normally, and keep the frenzy in your pocket for when its absolutely needed (BBEG fight with a long rest around the corner).

[MaxWilson]

Why's that?

Are you attacking the sirens with missile weapons to keep your Rage up, or cutting on yourself? I had the impression you were separated from them by a large distance. It's your scenario--I have to guess at the details, so if something I say doesn't make sense to you, I probably just guessed wrong.

[Anime Squirrel]

You dont have to frenzy. You can 'just' rage normally, and keep the frenzy in your pocket for when its absolutely needed (BBEG fight with a long rest around the corner).

It just seems like thats a waste since you can bonus attack for similer damage at all time unless DM says no feats

[Finieous]

that sounds like a table flipping situation.

It was awesome! The fighter dove in and started swimming towards the rocks. My tempest cleric made his save. Silence wasn't an option because it's cast at a fixed point and the fighter was already in the shark-infested waters, so I cast deafness on him. We managed to get out of it only losing a handful of crew.

[MaxWilson]

It just seems like thats a waste since you can bonus attack for similer damage at all time unless DM says no feats

Also, the Battlerager can bonus attack all the time for free, if he's wearing spiked armor. Plus, free damage on a grapple.

[Finieous]

Also, the Battlerager can bonus attack all the time for free, if he's wearing spiked armor. Plus, free damage on a grapple.

Uh-uh. Only when raging. And it doesn't get -5/+10. Not nearly as good as PAM. And it really sucks to have your 3rd level ability dependent on your freaking armor. One of the cool things about barbarians is that they can be excellent scouts. Even if they're wearing armor with disadvantage on stealth, they can take it off in one minute and still have respectable AC with Unarmored Defense. The battlerager? He loses his 3rd level ability if he tries that.

[djreynolds]

Wow, that's the first time I've ever heard anyone suggest taking Resilient (Int). You must play in really mind flayer-heavy campaigns.

I'd suggest taking Lucky instead, which is about as good as Resilient unless you're making a ton of saves per day--and it doesn't lock you into using it on Int saves exclusively, and can be used to (probably) negate crits and other bad things that happen at exactly the wrong moment.

I hate mind flayers, and more so, disrespectful fellow players that always try to attack them or anger them and then they, really just one dude, kicks are butts in.

But lucky is a much better idea, and being respectful to powerful entities.

[Finieous]

Are you attacking the sirens with missile weapons to keep your Rage up, or cutting on yourself? I had the impression you were separated from them by a large distance. It's your scenario--I have to guess at the details, so if something I say doesn't make sense to you, I probably just guessed wrong.

Yeah, it wasn't a terribly long distance, just longer than you'd ordinarily want to swim through demon-shark-infested waters. So yeah, Mindless Rage to rub off the charm, then ranged attacks to keep it going. As I recall, it was bow range to the sirens, but even thrown weapons could have been used to attack the sharks.

[MaxWilson]

Uh-uh. Only when raging. And it doesn't get -5/+10. Not nearly as good as PAM. And it really sucks to have your 3rd level ability dependent on your freaking armor. One of the cool things about barbarians is that they can be excellent scouts. Even if they're wearing armor with disadvantage on stealth, they can take it off in one minute and still have respectable AC with Unarmored Defense. The battlerager? He loses his 3rd level ability if he tries that.

Thanks for the correction. Though I think we're comparing Battlerager to Berserker Frenzy and not to Polearm Master, which is obviously superior to either.

================================================== ====


I hate mind flayers, and more so, disrespectful fellow players that always try to attack them or anger them and then they, really just one dude, kicks are butts in.

But lucky is a much better idea, and being respectful to powerful entities.

Hahaha. That is a hilarious story. :) I love it.

[Finieous]

Thanks for the correction. Though I think we're comparing Battlerager to Berserker Frenzy and not to Polearm Master, which is obviously superior to either.


Fair enough, though I think Anime Squirrel, who you replied to, was referencing PAM. I honestly haven't decided how to value the battlerager bonus attack. It's a decent bump to rage DPR, but it's tied to equipment. The stealth scenario is probably a corner case, but it's going to get much weaker at mid to high levels unless you can find magical spiked armor. Otherwise, you're up against monsters with resistances and begging for magic weapon spells just so you can use your 3rd level ability.

[Hairfish]

The Berserker is a highly-specialized role suitable for a larger party: a sticky boss killer. The bonus attack from GWM is unreliable in that scenario. Berserker at level 3 is also one of the few ways to guarantee a consistent second attack (with a big weapon) before level 5.

Totem barbarians are more useful in a smaller party, where a tank, mobile striker, or advantage-buffer are roles without much/any competition.

[djreynolds]

You dont have to frenzy. You can 'just' rage normally, and keep the frenzy in your pocket for when its absolutely needed (BBEG fight with a long rest around the corner).


The Berserker is a highly-specialized role suitable for a larger party: a sticky boss killer. The bonus attack from GWM is unreliable in that scenario. Berserker at level 3 is also one of the few ways to guarantee a consistent second attack (with a big weapon) before level 5.

Totem barbarians are more useful in a smaller party, where a tank, mobile striker, or advantage-buffer are roles without much/any competition.

Excellent takes, when you turn the corner and some powerful BBEG casts a big save or suck spell, time to frenzy.

A berserker is very specialized, but some BBEGs need some OOMPH to take down. Boss Killer, save that frenzy.

[SharkForce]

bonus action attacks are not so hard to get that it's worth taking a level of exhaustion.

reaction attacks are a bit harder to pull off, but still completely possible.

berserker is ok in a featless game. you still can't frenzy too often, but at least there aren't abilities available to every other melee character that essentially duplicate most of your archetype.

immunity to fear and charm is not nothing, but i just don't see it being so amazing that it's worth replacing everything else. charm only makes you not attack one person in 5e. fear will keep you from approaching an enemy, but you are just as capable of attacking (and not particularly less likely to get attacked). by default, you can still attack while under fear effects unless it has something else tied to it.

so i don't really see that it would, in fact, automatically knock you out of rage to get feared or charmed.

[Hairfish]

bonus action attacks are not so hard to get that it's worth taking a level of exhaustion.


They are if you're in the situation where frenzy is supposed to be used: facing off against high-hp opponents while wielding a greataxe. Every attack you use on killing chaff (assuming any is available) to enable GWM's bonus is an attack you're delaying making against the real threat. Other feat/class options lose 6-7 damage per round or worse against a boss enemy.

At 3-7, a Berserker with nothing but a greataxe can solo pretty much any other single melee enemy of equal CR and come out exhausted, but victorious. With no prep time. Probably while blindfolded.

[endur]

I have a level 6 Totem Barbarian. Variant human with GWM and Lucky Feats. Bear level 3 and Eagle level 6 abilities. 1 magic item: Gauntlets of Ogre Power.

I mostly attack with Maul, Great Sword, or Javelin.

I think Berserker level 6 is the best ability available to any of the sub trees, with berserker lvl 14 coming in next (I rarely get a reaction attack). I have yet to get any value out of my Bear level 3 ability, but I expect it to be handy against dragons.

GWM has been very useful, and I get an extra attack on probably 30% of the rounds (although there is not always an additional target in range).

For me, the most useful part of totem barbarian has been speaking to animals. Commune with Nature at 10th levels looks very interesting.

If I created this character over again, I would have gone berserker for the level 6 ability (and probably drop GWM for an ASI, due to bonus action conflict between GWM and frenzy).

[RulesJD]

You know, I've been thinking that regular Rage only gave resistance to non-magical P/S/B attacks, but I just re-read the Rage description, and in fact it grants resistance to all P/S/B attacks. With that in mind, I think I agree with you: Bear 3 is overrated and partially redundant. Mostly serves to manage risk in niche scenarios like dragon-fighting. I can't think of any fear or charm that I'm especially afraid of, or Mindless Rage might be more attractive to me.

You clearly don't play adventurer's league and the standard modules. Pretty much every enemy at T2/T3 has add on damage that's not S/B/P, especially poison and fire.

[MaxWilson]

You clearly don't play adventurer's league and the standard modules. Pretty much every enemy at T2/T3 has add on damage that's not S/B/P, especially poison and fire.

You're correct, I run a home campaign. I don't even know what "T2" and "T3" refer to.

If every enemy has add-on damage that increases total damage by, say, 60% (e.g. 1d8+3 physical damage plus 1d8 necrotic), then Bear is effectively giving you 40% more HP ((0.5+0.6)/(0.5+0.3) = 40%), which isn't bad at all, but also isn't close to doubling your HP.

================================================== =


At 3-7, a Berserker with nothing but a greataxe can solo pretty much any other single melee enemy of equal CR and come out exhausted, but victorious. With no prep time. Probably while blindfolded.

As far as I've seen, pretty much any PC has a decent chance of soloing an enemy of equal CR with about 50% probability, especially a melee enemy. Anything that the Berserker can handle, a Mobile monk can handle more easily, unless you're locked in a phone booth with it.

I wouldn't suggest soloing a mind flayer though.

[SharkForce]

They are if you're in the situation where frenzy is supposed to be used: facing off against high-hp opponents while wielding a greataxe. Every attack you use on killing chaff (assuming any is available) to enable GWM's bonus is an attack you're delaying making against the real threat. Other feat/class options lose 6-7 damage per round or worse against a boss enemy.

At 3-7, a Berserker with nothing but a greataxe can solo pretty much any other single melee enemy of equal CR and come out exhausted, but victorious. With no prep time. Probably while blindfolded.

that's why you use a halberd and polearm master. there is a slight damage drop due to the damage die being smaller, particularly when you use the PAM bonus attack rather than getting the GWM bonus attack, but the difference is really not very large because most of your damage is coming from GWM +10 damage per hit anyways (and yes, that remains true even with brutal critical - a frenzying barbarian with a greataxe will do more damage, but only by a few points).

add to that the reaction attack that polearm master can give relatively easily, and you are no longer getting a particularly large damage boost from frenzy. and since you probably want to be effective in every fight possible, you probably want those feats on a berserker anyways. if frenzy could be used every fight, it would at least provide value in the form of not needing PAM at all, but as it stands, frenzy is a "special occasions only" ability, and it isn't even that much better than PAM + GWM.

[TrollCapAmerica]

Good god I read these boards sometimes and wonder if people are playing the same game. I see folks say Melfs acid arrow and the Champion are goood one place and that half damage from 99% of attacks is worse than 2 HP per level

You ever read the MM and noticed a large number of things with extra nom-standard damage? Dang Drow with poison weapons undead with Necrotic damage up the wazoo hey there's some things from the elemental plane of fire or lower planes lets have thier weapons do tons of fire damage too. Hell a single elemental resistance us supposed to be the selling point of Dragonborn over all the other +STR races

Barbarians always have the problem before lv15 of losing a limited resource (in rage) that's wasted if you aren't hitting or being hit. Now you get around this a little bit maybe carry some throwing weapons or if the DM is your Mom cut yourself but for DMs that dont love you unconditionally a few BFCs piss a Barb off far more than anyone else. This is supposed to be the selling point of mindless rage which is fine against things with innate fear and the couple things that charm but if ypu DM has ever played a spellcaster your getting greased sleeted or wall of stoned or illusionary wall of stoned or Illusionary wall of Stoned thats also a real one. A regular Barb loses a rage and grumbles a Frenzy Barb is bleeding to death Rectally

Oh whats that you could NOT Frenzy. Well thats a class feature of all the Totem Barbs too if ya didnt know. They could also get a bonus attack from a feat that Str based melees are likely to have with both GEM and PAM. Honestly the best ability the Berserker gets is its reaction only because its not as easy to get reaction attacks from guys moving as slugging it out with you.

So congrats at lv 15 you can get a bonus action attack and reaction as class features. Afterwards you bleed from the rear and force your Cleric to use more resources because your a special snowflake that bucked the norm and took Barbarian bad version to prove a point

[Finieous]

Good god I read these boards sometimes and wonder if people are playing the same game. I see folks say Melfs acid arrow and the Champion are goood one place and that half damage from 99% of attacks is worse than 2 HP per level


I haven't seen anyone saying that.

[TrollCapAmerica]

I haven't seen anyone saying that.

"Bear resistance may be the single most overrated class ability in 5e. It's good. Probably a bit worse than the Tough feat"

Two HP per lv

2

The number after one

The thing you dont get over raising your CON and when your CON is 20 you still dont over better options than maybe mitigating one attack worth of damage

[Finieous]

"Bear resistance may be the single most overrated class ability in 5e. It's good. Probably a bit worse than the Tough feat"

Two HP per lv

2

The number after one

The thing you dont get over raising your CON and when your CON is 20 you still dont over better options than maybe mitigating one attack worth of damage

Bear resistance. The resistance you get from the totem ability to non-S/B/P/P damage. Standard barbarian resistance is clearly better than Tough, but all barbarians receive that ability so it's irrelevant for a comparison of the paths. Bear totem extends that resistance to a minority of the damage you take.

I quantified it. Do the math for yourself. Maybe in your campaign 33% of damage is coming from non-S/B/P/P -- fully 1 in every 3 points of damage you take. Now bear resistance is worth about 6.3 points at 3rd level* -- still slightly worse than the 6 hp from Tough, because it can be used when not raging, against all forms of damage, and can be refreshed throughout the adventuring day with heals and rests.

I didn't just make a claim -- I showed my work because I know different people in different campaigns have different experiences. You can show your own work to reflect your own experience, but a strawman (or simple misreading of my claim) is a lightweight rebuttal.

* In reality, it will be less because you won't be raging when you take 80% of that damage at 3rd level, but I wanted to use generous numbers for the purposes of the comparison.

[MaxWilson]

Now you get around this a little bit maybe carry some throwing weapons or if the DM is your Mom cut yourself

Wait, what? It's uncontroversial that you can choose to punch yourself for damage, and that taking damage maintains rage. The only thing that is at all controversial is whether you still need to roll to-hit; and even if the DM makes you roll, there isn't much doubt that your Reckless Attack on yourself with a unarmed strike is going to hit, especially with Extra Attack. It's even thematic for a crazy barbarian.

Taking damage maintains rage, full stop.

[Temperjoke]

I think it depends on your group and your role in the group. In my current group, I'm a Goliath Totem Barbarian. The reason I took Totem in this group is that we have some small issues with scouting/tracking, I'm the group's tank in a group of more "lighter" characters, and we have a weakness in healing capabilities, so extra resistance helps. If the group were built differently, then going with a more pure dps build with Berserker instead would be more optimal for the group.

[DracoKnight]

As a damage sponge, bear totem is only rivaled by druids at level 2 and 20. Zerker frenzy is great if its the BBEG and he has to die right now, otherwise exhaustion is a pretty steep price to pay. There's other ways to get a bonus action attack that don't make you a liability the rest of the day.

The reason that the Berserker incurs exhaustion is because you don't have to take the Attack action on your turn. You can take any other action, and still get off that attack.

[AbyssStalker]

I didn't just make a claim -- I showed my work because I know different people in different campaigns have different experiences. You can show your own work to reflect your own experience, but a strawman (or simple misreading of my claim) is a lightweight rebuttal.

* In reality, it will be less because you won't be raging when you take 80% of that damage at 3rd level, but I wanted to use generous numbers for the purposes of the comparison.

Except there are situations where you will be encountering a large amount of said damage all at once or in a short amount of time, which is where this ability becomes important, and it becomes important far more often than other niche resistances in that it is almost absolute in coverage between damage types.

Also, I would recommend Tough and Bear Resistance, they compliment one another.

[RulesJD]

Bear resistance. The resistance you get from the totem ability to non-S/B/P/P damage. Standard barbarian resistance is clearly better than Tough, but all barbarians receive that ability so it's irrelevant for a comparison of the paths. Bear totem extends that resistance to a minority of the damage you take.

I quantified it. Do the math for yourself. Maybe in your campaign 33% of damage is coming from non-S/B/P/P -- fully 1 in every 3 points of damage you take. Now bear resistance is worth about 6.3 points at 3rd level* -- still slightly worse than the 6 hp from Tough, because it can be used when not raging, against all forms of damage, and can be refreshed throughout the adventuring day with heals and rests.

I didn't just make a claim -- I showed my work because I know different people in different campaigns have different experiences. You can show your own work to reflect your own experience, but a strawman (or simple misreading of my claim) is a lightweight rebuttal.

* In reality, it will be less because you won't be raging when you take 80% of that damage at 3rd level, but I wanted to use generous numbers for the purposes of the comparison.


Okay so, basically, your math doesn't matter because you're in some homebrew game that doesn't have any of the higher tier monsters AND has, apparently, absolutely no spell casters throwing around their Stinking Clouds, Fireballs, Walls of Fire, et al. Anything higher level in AL play will easily see more than 50% of damage coming from non-S/B/P (drow poison weapons, acid from cubes, necrotic from everything, etc. in the current season for example).

[endur]

Okay so, basically, your math doesn't matter because you're in some homebrew game that doesn't have any of the higher tier monsters AND has, apparently, absolutely no spell casters throwing around their Stinking Clouds, Fireballs, Walls of Fire, et al. Anything higher level in AL play will easily see more than 50% of damage coming from non-S/B/P (drow poison weapons, acid from cubes, necrotic from everything, etc. in the current season for example).

Level of the barbarian is the key here. And also the campaign -- are you fighting orcs or a cult of necromancers or a flight of dragons?

From levels 1-5, it would not be surprising for 100% of the damage to be physical. The same statement would not be true from level 6-10. Even more when you consider levels 11-20.

For example, my level 6 barbarian has yet to take non-physical damage (I made my saving throw for no damage the only time I was exposed to a non-physical source of damage). I certainly don't expect that to continue to level 10 or higher. What have I been fighting? lots of physical damage creatures, a few hags, the occasional shaman, etc. The spells I have had to worry about have mostly been non-hit point spells (save or suck, save or die (death glare from sea hag), etc.)

[Mongobear]

Berserker - HULK SMASH, BOOK BAD!!! You take this if literally the only thing you care about is making things dead. Defenses are for the weak, just find the biggest, smashiest weapon you can and repeatedly hit things with it until they or you fall down.

Totem Warrior - Support/Defensive Path still capable of outputting comparable DPR to Berserker. Doesn't quite have as readily available access to extra attacks or condition immunities, but makes up for it by basically resisting everything that targets you HP Bar, except for... Bards, Mind Flayers and Gith (seriously, are there any other attacks that do Psychic damage?). Can be built into an UberTough Battlefield controller--shoving/grappling/Sentinel and making your enemies lives a living hell, or as a more straightforward "Berserker Lite" that pretty much does the same stuff as the Berserker path, but has the resistances and other stuff to rely on to not explode to every attack.

[SwordChuck]

Berserker - HULK SMASH, BOOK BAD!!! You take this if literally the only thing you care about is making things dead. Defenses are for the weak, just find the biggest, smashiest weapon you can and repeatedly hit things with it until they or you fall down.

Totem Warrior - Support/Defensive Path still capable of outputting comparable DPR to Berserker. Doesn't quite have as readily available access to extra attacks or condition immunities, but makes up for it by basically resisting everything that targets you HP Bar, except for... Bards, Mind Flayers and Gith (seriously, are there any other attacks that do Psychic damage?). Can be built into an UberTough Battlefield controller--shoving/grappling/Sentinel and making your enemies lives a living hell, or as a more straightforward "Berserker Lite" that pretty much does the same stuff as the Berserker path, but has the resistances and other stuff to rely on to not explode to every attack.

Sadly the beserker makes itself weaker each time you use it. You have to be more tactically involved with it than you do with he totem. Just get twf, PM, or any other ability that simulates beserker and then take bear totem of you want to be the hulk.

Totem barbarians do more damage in real games than a beserker barbarian will. Exhaustion sucks so you won't be using your BA attack all that much. Theoretics are nice and all but from what I've seen in game play, theoretics don't matter that much.

[Finieous]

Except there are situations where you will be encountering a large amount of said damage all at once or in a short amount of time, which is where this ability becomes important, and it becomes important far more often than other niche resistances in that it is almost absolute in coverage between damage types.


Well, but that's why we use averages. Yes, with the Tough feat instead of bear resistance, I'll take more damage from that attack (assuming I'm raging at the time), but I'll have had more hit points for all the encounters leading up to it. Beyond the mathematical effect, we're back to the psychological security blanket.


Okay so, basically, your math doesn't matter because you're in some homebrew game that doesn't have any of the higher tier monsters AND has, apparently, absolutely no spell casters throwing around their Stinking Clouds, Fireballs, Walls of Fire, et al. Anything higher level in AL play will easily see more than 50% of damage coming from non-S/B/P (drow poison weapons, acid from cubes, necrotic from everything, etc. in the current season for example).

Wow! I would definitely take bear totem in a campaign with 50% or more of all damage coming from non-S/B/P/P sources, as I stated in my original post. We face plenty of higher tier monsters in my current campaign, but even your demons and dragons are doing more damage with physical attacks over the course of an encounter, let alone giants and such.

I really don't get a kickback anytime someone chooses a path other than bear totem, so I'd always recommend that players choose it when it's so clearly the best option. I would think that most campaigns fall into that 25-33% range for non-S/B/P/P damage. In a poison-heavy campaign like Out of the Abyss, I can certainly see how it would be closer to 50%. So definitely go bear (and/or dwarf).

[MaxWilson]

resisting everything that targets you HP Bar, except for... Bards, Mind Flayers and Gith (seriously, are there any other attacks that do Psychic damage?).

14th level Fiendlocks.

[MaxWilson]

Well, but that's why we use averages. Yes, with the Tough feat instead of bear resistance, I'll take more damage from that attack (assuming I'm raging at the time), but I'll have had more hit points for all the encounters leading up to it. Beyond the mathematical effect, we're back to the psychological security blanket.

That's not just psychological though--that's an actual risk management technique. It's the kind of thing you do if your DM does things like sic three Young White Dragons on you simultaneously.


I really don't get a kickback anytime someone chooses a path other than bear totem, so I'd always recommend that players choose it when it's so clearly the best option. I would think that most campaigns fall into that 25-33% range for non-S/B/P/P damage. In a poison-heavy campaign like Out of the Abyss, I can certainly see how it would be closer to 50%. So definitely go bear (and/or dwarf).

Don't go dwarf just for poison resistance. Protection From Poison (2nd level) is a widely available no-concentration spell with a good duration that gives both poison resistance and advantage on saves. Easier than any other resistance type.

[Mongobear]

Sadly the beserker makes itself weaker each time you use it. You have to be more tactically involved with it than you do with he totem. Just get twf, PM, or any other ability that simulates beserker and then take bear totem of you want to be the hulk.


Im not advocating using Frenzy at every possible chance, what I am saying is that it is no different than giving the Barbarian an ability similar to other classes with a 1/long rest ability. Which is effectively what Frenzy is. You aren't forced to use Frenzy, it doesn't magically replace regular Rages, you just cant spam it without considering the consequences, unless you have an in-party way to cure Exhaustion outside of Rests.

If you take Berserker, all you need is GWM and maybe Resilient(Wisdom) and you are pretty much an unstoppable murder-machine if your party is at all capable of handling fights where all you do is run in circles decapitating stuff. You dont use tactics as a Berserker if you're using Frenzy, you make stuff die, then continue ad infinitum until the fight is over.



Totem barbarians do more damage in real games than a beserker barbarian will. Exhaustion sucks so you won't be using your BA attack all that much. Theoretics are nice and all but from what I've seen in game play, theoretics don't matter that much.


They have the potential to deal more damage if youre fighting an attrition battle, thats going to take rounds upon rounds upon rounds to conclude. Most encounters aren't like that. Usually a balanced encounter is over in 3-4 rounds at most, which is in favor of the Berserker's Frenzy DPR or equal if both builds just use a standard Rage. The only Totem that increases personal or party DPR at all is Level 3 Wolf, Level 15 Wolf, and Level 15 Tiger. Every other option is either a defensive tool or utility effects like the Eagle's Level 15 Flying or Tigers Level 3 Super Jumps.

[AbyssStalker]

Well, but that's why we use averages. Yes, with the Tough feat instead of bear resistance, I'll take more damage from that attack (assuming I'm raging at the time), but I'll have had more hit points for all the encounters leading up to it. Beyond the mathematical effect, we're back to the psychological security blanket.

Psychological security blanket? Really? Why do you keep representing Tough and bear resistance as two entirely contradicting, non-stacking things? Last I checked I didn't see a pig totem giving the effects of the tough feat alongside the others

And you can call half-damage from all sources but psychic a psychological security blanket all day long, but I'd take that blanket all day long if given the choice.

[Finieous]

Psychological security blanket? Really? Why do you keep representing Tough and bear resistance as two entirely contradicting, non-stacking things? Last I checked I didn't see a pig totem giving the effects of the tough feat alongside the others

I haven't, or least that has not been my intention. I've just tried to quantify the actual effect of bear resistance, and having done so, argued that its value is perhaps a little less than the Tough feat in what I take to be a typical campaign (i.e. non-S/B/P/P damage in the 25-33% range). That's its value if you want to compare the ability to other options. Tough is a good feat. Bear resistance is a good ability. Together they're double-good.

ETA: Again, half damage from S/P/B is a fantastic ability. In my estimation, that accounts for 66-75% of all damage taken. But all barbarians get that. What I've tried to do is quantify what bear resistance is worth.

[SwordChuck]

They have the potential to deal more damage if youre fighting an attrition battle, thats going to take rounds upon rounds upon rounds to conclude. Most encounters aren't like that. Usually a balanced encounter is over in 3-4 rounds at most, which is in favor of the Berserker's Frenzy DPR or equal if both builds just use a standard Rage. The only Totem that increases personal or party DPR at all is Level 3 Wolf, Level 15 Wolf, and Level 15 Tiger. Every other option is either a defensive tool or utility effects like the Eagle's Level 15 Flying or Tigers Level 3 Super Jumps.

The issue with Beserker is that you can use it at most twice a day before it starts becoming a problem. A totem barbarian can rage and use their abilities as many times per day as their maximum.

Beserker not only makes you worse in combat but out of combat too.

And really, from whatbive seen in AL and home games, battles last way longer than 5 rounds. Relying primarily on the d20 to determine success can really make the battles drag on.

[Mongobear]

The issue with Beserker is that you can use it at most twice a day before it starts becoming a problem. A totem barbarian can rage and use their abilities as many times per day as their maximum.

Beserker not only makes you worse in combat but out of combat too.

And really, from whatbive seen in AL and home games, battles last way longer than 5 rounds. Relying primarily on the d20 to determine success can really make the battles drag on.


I cant speak from personal experience on this, but I would wager from close to two decades of experience across 4 seperate editions of D&D, that more of the player base runs custom worlds/campaigns and not AL of sponsored events. Im not saying the evidence is unfounded, but itd be like comparing the power level of a Magic: The Gathering card in kitchen table games relative to professional tournaments. It's a completely different dynamic.

Now, back to your other points:

Nothing stops a Berserker from just using normal Rages, all of their other abilities function just the same regardless of whether its a Rage/Frenzy. The benefits of Frenzy are obvious, you make stuff dead 33%-50% faster, but after the combat, youre pretty gimped, if you use it early in the day, yes this can be a problem, atleast at early levels. Once you get to mid-late levels though, its less of an issue, as you can more accessible methods to remove Exhaustion as needed, instead of just Long Rests.

Nothing a Totem Barbarian can do before their last Path Feature can put their DPR potential on par with a Berserker, they have to take Feats to do so. Totem is entirely means as a Defensive/Support choice, they just happen to have some really good offensive options as well. Where-as the Berserker is entirely Offensive, except for level 6. Theyre entirely designed around hitting things, as often as possible, as hard a s possible, and they even get to hit things back when they get hit, just to show the thing how best to hit stuff like a man.

In a large enough party, 5+ or so, you can afford to make a pure beatstick like the Berserker, because the rest of your group most like has its bases covered, so the unmatched offensive power it offers is leaps and bounds ahead of everything except for high level Great Weapon Fighters (and even then, Brutal Critical might push the Barbarian ahead, but its unreliable). If youre in a normal sized party, or even under the recommended 4 players, Totem is the obviously better choice, even if all you want to to is kill stuff, because the Resistances alone prevent you from being a resource hog to healing effects the other members could use on themselves.

[Secret Wizard]

Not much experience with barbarian but I like wolf much better than bear for the first totem.

Things die faster and you take less damage because they are deader. You should have resistance to elements from buffs anyway.

Currently using Wolf / Tiger and planning on Eagle for the last totem.

[djreynolds]

How are you guys ruling the use of GWM and pole arm master's bonus attack? Because we do not allow the use of GWM on the 1d4 butt end.

How you rule this could change how effective the bonus attack of the berserker is?

[Hairfish]

It's also worth noting that in a larger party, taking a few levels of exhaustion isn't really all that debilitating. The berserker is unlikely to be the party's skill monkey; taking Lucky would turn rank 1 exhaustion into a non-issue. Rank 2 is partially mitigated by the +10' movement, plus the berserker's role of sticking to tough targets means they generally don't have to move around much. Rank 3 can be rough, but a barb can negate any amount of attack disadvantage with Reckless Attack.

Assuming your party gets the occasional weekend off, a berserker can float 1-3 levels of exhaustion without crippling a larger party.

[Malifice]

How are you guys ruling the use of GWM and pole arm master's bonus attack? Because we do not allow the use of GWM on the 1d4 butt end.

How you rule this could change how effective the bonus attack of the berserker is?

I do the same.

[djreynolds]

I do the same.

And then that bonus attack with GWM is nasty, just like the war clerics, and can save your butts. I think this is where perhaps everyone is not seeing the Berserker as perhaps other do.

[Mongobear]

How are you guys ruling the use of GWM and pole arm master's bonus attack? Because we do not allow the use of GWM on the 1d4 butt end.

How you rule this could change how effective the bonus attack of the berserker is?

RAW its still technically made with a 2Handed Heavy melee weapon, its just less effective, thus the 1d4 damage instead of normal 1d10 or whatever polearm youre using. Ive yet to see someone rebut that GWM and PAM dont work together.

[djreynolds]

RAW its still technically made with a 2Handed Heavy melee weapon, its just less effective, thus the 1d4 damage instead of normal 1d10 or whatever polearm youre using. Ive yet to see someone rebut that GWM and PAM dont work together.

Only for the 1d4 bonus attack portion, for our game. To me it just seemed to work that way.

And this is perhaps where people begin to differ in opinion over the strength frenzy's bonus attack.

[Malifice]

And then that bonus attack with GWM is nasty, just like the war clerics, and can save your butts. I think this is where perhaps everyone is not seeing the Berserker as perhaps other do.

The bonus attack from GWM only kicks in on a kill or crit. Against a solo monster, Frenzy is your friend. Also, as pointed out, the bonus action attack is not tied into the attack action - meaning you can (move + dash + attack) or similar shennanigans. Plus a d12 is better than a d4. Greater restoration removes a level of exhaustion (admittedly its a 5th level spell, and costs 100gp). Depending on your campaign and DM some 5th level scrolls or even a potion of vitality which removes all exhaustion (an expensive option, but it lets you remove all levels) can go a long way.

One level places you at disadvantage to ability checks (skills and initiative). Two levels also halves your movement (which is already pretty fast anyway). You can wear 2 levels a day if in a tight spot.

Also, the higher level frenzy path abilities are pretty amazing. Its not the trap choice that many think it is.

[Mongobear]

Only for the 1d4 bonus attack portion, for our game. To me it just seemed to work that way.

And this is perhaps where people begin to differ in opinion over the strength frenzy's bonus attack.

I really only see two ways to build a Berserker properly, depending on the interpretation on PAM's BA attack.

1) GWM + PAM - Never use Frenzy unless its a really important fight, and just run off of the free BA attack to carry you through fights.

or

2) GWM + Greataxe - The standard "make stuff dead with an axe" method. Frenzy is slightly more important for the BA attack, but with crits/enemy kills GWM can be your source of BA attacks without too much Exhaustion issues.

Obviously, if your DM rules that GWM cant work with the 1d4 attack from PAM, then that build is less optimal, but RAW it works, because the attack is still made with the Polearm, so it would have all of the same qualities of the base weapon (Reach, Heavy, Two-Handed) only the damage dice is different.

[djreynolds]

I really only see two ways to build a Berserker properly, depending on the interpretation on PAM's BA attack.

1) GWM + PAM - Never use Frenzy unless its a really important fight, and just run off of the free BA attack to carry you through fights.

or

2) GWM + Greataxe - The standard "make stuff dead with an axe" method. Frenzy is slightly more important for the BA attack, but with crits/enemy kills GWM can be your source of BA attacks without too much Exhaustion issues.

Obviously, if your DM rules that GWM cant work with the 1d4 attack from PAM, then that build is less optimal, but RAW it works, because the attack is still made with the Polearm, so it would have all of the same qualities of the base weapon (Reach, Heavy, Two-Handed) only the damage dice is different.

I always thought that the bonus attack from pole arm master was 1d4 because it was just you basically punching out with the butt end of the weapon and that's why is was no different in damage than the quarterstaff's.

So if you allow -5/+10 on that 1d4 BA, there is no reason to ever go with a berserker with a halberd/glaive or honestly berserker all together

[Mongobear]

I always thought that the bonus attack from pole arm master was 1d4 because it was just you basically punching out with the butt end of the weapon and that's why is was no different in damage than the quarterstaff's.

So if you allow -5/+10 on that 1d4 BA, there is no reason to ever go with a berserker with a halberd/glaive or honestly berserker all together

Other than Frenzy, Berserker argueably has better Path features than Totem Warrior, the problem is surviving the early levels to get there. Especially the level 6 Charm/Frightened Immunity. The Fear Aura thing is kinda weak, since it runs off of Charisma, but if youre fighting stuff with a weak save it can be useful. Retaliation is a little redundant if you already have PAM's Reaction attack, but theres nothing wrong with a little redundancy as long as you dont go overboard or lose something better acquiring it.

Whatever the logic is with the damage dice on the PAM BA Attack, it is still technically made with whatever weapon youre using. if it qualifies for the -5/+10 I dont see why the butt strike doesnt.

[PoeticDwarf]

A friend and I are discussing the difference between the 2 barbarian paths and id like some outside opinions. I believe totem is over all stronger marked heavily By bear totem 1 and 3, and the over all variety of RP flavors the other totems offer . The lack of extra attack from frenzy is easy enough to make up for.

His argument is that without Bear 1, Totem has nothing to bring to the table comparatively. He emphasizes how strong Frenzy can be and the fear and charm cancellation/immunity .

IMO Frenzy loses a lot of steam after 1 or 2 encounters because of the multiple stacks of exhaustion. Making up for this at higher levels in a way with nearly unlimited rage duration.
He disagrees because he doesn't think Its that big a deal based of how often your in combat. But our table mates tend to hit first and ask questions later. So i feel after 1 encounter a day ,with 2 or 3 expected, It loses it usefulness too quickly.

What do you all think?

Totem is overall, especially with SCAG, stronger. Berserker has good stuff, and frenzy can be OK in Nova, but if you take bear level 3 and if you are smart level 6 and 14 totem is some stronger. If you don't take bear 3 they are comparable. Totem isn't always better but if you think about your choices it is probably.

Battlerager is also really strong, because the level 3 features I think little bit stronger than berserker, and comparable with bear totem (on level 3)

[djreynolds]

Whatever the logic is with the damage dice on the PAM BA Attack, it is still technically made with whatever weapon youre using. if it qualifies for the -5/+10 I dont see why the butt strike doesnt.

I'd rather play at your table, our DM does 1s as critical misses. My own kid shot me, and of course laughed about it, along with the sharp-shooter added.

[SwordChuck]

How are you guys ruling the use of GWM and pole arm master's bonus attack? Because we do not allow the use of GWM on the 1d4 butt end.

How you rule this could change how effective the bonus attack of the berserker is?

By RAW you should be allowed to use it on the butt end as it is part of a heavy weapon. Small creatures would still take disdvantage on the attack roll with it unless you think small creatures wouldn't take disadvantage by using a heavy weapon backwards?

But for me there is no such thing as -5 attack/+10 damage features for any feat. I've taken them out of my games.

They aren't needed from a damage standpoint, go counter to the game's core design, and are pretty much as interesting as getting a +damage magic weapon, can anyone say #yawn ?

[MaxWilson]

They aren't needed from a damage standpoint, go counter to the game's core design, and are pretty much as interesting as getting a +damage magic weapon, can anyone say #yawn ?

If you take them out, the Warlock becomes the at-will damage king, Reckless Attack becomes really strange (no way to convert to-hit into damage, so "Reckless" starts implying "precise" instead of "powerful"), and you're asking for a game full of nothing but spellcasters and the occasional rogue. Why would I want to play a fighter with 3 weak attacks when I can play a Bladelock with 2 strong attacks and lots of spells?

It is possible to build a fighter who doesn't use either of those feats, but those feats are (guesstimating) approximately 50% of the incentive to even play a fighter in the first place. I predict you'll see fighters drop from 15% or 20% of all PCs rolled up to almost nothing.

[SwordChuck]

If you take them out, the Warlock becomes the at-will damage king, Reckless Attack becomes really strange (no way to convert to-hit into damage, so "Reckless" starts implying "precise" instead of "powerful"), and you're asking for a game full of nothing but spellcasters and the occasional rogue. Why would I want to play a fighter with 3 weak attacks when I can play a Bladelock with 2 strong attacks and lots of spells?

It is possible to build a fighter who doesn't use either of those feats, but those feats are (guesstimating) approximately 50% of the incentive to even play a fighter in the first place. I predict you'll see fighters drop from 15% or 20% of all PCs rolled up to almost nothing.

Warlock's are weird, but that's a problem no matter what. Force damage, invocations, and multiple attack rolls (crit) makes it the best all around damage ability even when you bring in GWM type feats since those classes and feats still don't bypass non-magic resistance/immunities with a damage type that isn't resisted all that much.

Even with no GWM the fighters, barbarians, and Rogues do plenty enough damage and they have same level of non-damage utility (which people say is fine, it isn't but whatever).

-5/+10 isn't needed and it just causes problems with the game, especially when you try to ADD to the game.

[Malifice]

-5/+10 isn't needed and it just causes problems with the game, especially when you try to ADD to the game.

Couldnt disagree more. It causes no problems in my game.

[MaxWilson]

Warlock's are weird, but that's a problem no matter what. Force damage, invocations, and multiple attack rolls (crit) makes it the best all around damage ability even when you bring in GWM type feats since those classes and feats still don't bypass non-magic resistance/immunities with a damage type that isn't resisted all that much.

You know what's resisted even less often than Force damage? Piercing damage from magical weapons. Warlocks are okay at range, but Sharpshooter fighters excel*. Only Sorlocks can really compete, but Quicken Spell isn't an at-will resource.

-Max

* For instance, for 11th level Crossbow Expert Sharpshooter w/ Magic Weapon cast vs. Spell Sniper Warlock with Hex cast, DPR vs. Mind Flayers is this:

Fighter: avg.4.d20+7?15:d6+16 = 51.40
Warlock: avg.3.d20+9?15:d10+d6+5 = 32.85

Both are using their action and bonus action, and Fighter does 56% more damage. If a Moon Druid in Giant Anaconda form constricts one of the Mind Flayers, damage goes up to 69.81 damage and 42.01 respectively, which means the fighter is doing 66% more damage. Sharpshooter makes the fighter viable here even if warlock is an option.

I'm neglecting possible Repelling Blast effects though.

[SharkForce]

I cant speak from personal experience on this, but I would wager from close to two decades of experience across 4 seperate editions of D&D, that more of the player base runs custom worlds/campaigns and not AL of sponsored events. Im not saying the evidence is unfounded, but itd be like comparing the power level of a Magic: The Gathering card in kitchen table games relative to professional tournaments. It's a completely different dynamic.

Now, back to your other points:

Nothing stops a Berserker from just using normal Rages, all of their other abilities function just the same regardless of whether its a Rage/Frenzy. The benefits of Frenzy are obvious, you make stuff dead 33%-50% faster, but after the combat, youre pretty gimped, if you use it early in the day, yes this can be a problem, atleast at early levels. Once you get to mid-late levels though, its less of an issue, as you can more accessible methods to remove Exhaustion as needed, instead of just Long Rests.

Nothing a Totem Barbarian can do before their last Path Feature can put their DPR potential on par with a Berserker, they have to take Feats to do so. Totem is entirely means as a Defensive/Support choice, they just happen to have some really good offensive options as well. Where-as the Berserker is entirely Offensive, except for level 6. Theyre entirely designed around hitting things, as often as possible, as hard a s possible, and they even get to hit things back when they get hit, just to show the thing how best to hit stuff like a man.

In a large enough party, 5+ or so, you can afford to make a pure beatstick like the Berserker, because the rest of your group most like has its bases covered, so the unmatched offensive power it offers is leaps and bounds ahead of everything except for high level Great Weapon Fighters (and even then, Brutal Critical might push the Barbarian ahead, but its unreliable). If youre in a normal sized party, or even under the recommended 4 players, Totem is the obviously better choice, even if all you want to to is kill stuff, because the Resistances alone prevent you from being a resource hog to healing effects the other members could use on themselves.

if berserkers could grab a couple of feats (or benefit from ASIs) such that they had most of the best parts of being a totem barbarian, i'd be all for berserkers. again, the main reason i feel berserkers are a bit on the weak side is that totem barbarians can get defense/utility/party support/whatever and still do very close to the same DPR as a frenzying berserker, except they get to do it basically every rage instead of only when they frenzy.

as it stands, berserkers *can* work, but i wouldn't pick it up unless it was a featless game. and even then, i personally would still probably grab totem (but that's because i'd rather grab some interesting ability that gives entirely new options than do a bit more damage, rather than out of any belief that totem barbarian has any particular mechanical advantage).

[djreynolds]

if berserkers could grab a couple of feats (or benefit from ASIs) such that they had most of the best parts of being a totem barbarian, i'd be all for berserkers. again, the main reason i feel berserkers are a bit on the weak side is that totem barbarians can get defense/utility/party support/whatever and still do very close to the same DPR as a frenzying berserker, except they get to do it basically every rage instead of only when they frenzy.

as it stands, berserkers *can* work, but i wouldn't pick it up unless it was a featless game. and even then, i personally would still probably grab totem (but that's because i'd rather grab some interesting ability that gives entirely new options than do a bit more damage, rather than out of any belief that totem barbarian has any particular mechanical advantage).

Excellent points, whether you use feats or how you RAI them, creates a lot distance in our opinions of the game, when we are probably closer than you think in our opinions. All of your insightful opinions are great.

I personally am divided on how the AL does stuff, standard array forces people to play cookie cut characters derived from a guide. And rolling for stats can change expectations of what a player would normally do. Some guides, based on experience from the AL game, concludes Berserkers are bad and often I will not see them played. But then someone shows up, and her play of the berserker shows something different. This berserker is very powerful.

In regards to Pole arm master, we do not grant any GWM aspects on the 1d4 bonus action and so that third attack of a 5th level berserker is powerful, as powerful as our war clerics. I wonder, as I could not find an answer in sage advice, on how this is ruled. And so how your table rules it has a rippling effect on our opinions on many aspects of 5E.

But I always value everyone experience, especially us old timers who played elves as a character class

[Zalabim]

* For instance, for 11th level Crossbow Expert Sharpshooter w/ Magic Weapon cast vs. Spell Sniper Warlock with Hex cast, DPR vs. Mind Flayers is this:

Fighter: avg.4.d20+7?15:d6+16 = 51.40
Warlock: avg.3.d20+9?15:d10+d6+5 = 32.85

Both are using their action and bonus action, and Fighter does 56% more damage. If a Moon Druid in Giant Anaconda form constricts one of the Mind Flayers, damage goes up to 69.81 damage and 42.01 respectively, which means the fighter is doing 66% more damage. Sharpshooter makes the fighter viable here even if warlock is an option.

I'm neglecting possible Repelling Blast effects though.

And without Sharpshooter, that'd be avg.4.d20+12?15:d6+6 = 34.9? I think. I don't have your program.

That's 6.24% more damage, but I'm neglecting Action Surge's effects here.

[SharkForce]

RAW, the bonus attack with polearm master is still a two-handed heavy weapon, and qualifies for GWM. obviously, you are free to disregard that entirely (adventurer's league, however, is not)

[MaxWilson]

And without Sharpshooter, that'd be avg.4.d20+12?15:d6+6 = 34.9? I think. I don't have your program.

That's 6.24% more damage, but I'm neglecting Action Surge's effects here.

The program is on the web at http://maxwilson.github.io/RollWeb/Roll/

Edit: whoops, the web version is having trouble parsing the more-complicated expression. Had to simplify to avg.4.3?d6+6 to make it work. Anyway, your math is correct.

=============================================



In regards to Pole arm master, we do not grant any GWM aspects on the 1d4 bonus action and so that third attack of a 5th level berserker is powerful, as powerful as our war clerics. I wonder, as I could not find an answer in sage advice, on how this is ruled.

I believe you're looking for this (http://www.sageadvice.eu/tag/polearm/):


@JeremyECrawford Can Great Weap Mstr & Polearm Mstr be combined (take -5/+10 with the bonus attack) and do you add the mod. to the damage?


@Elesthor Yep, you can combine them, and you do add your modifier to the damage.

[SwordChuck]

You know what's resisted even less often than Force damage? Piercing damage from magical weapons. Warlocks are okay at range, but Sharpshooter fighters excel*. Only Sorlocks can really compete, but Quicken Spell isn't an at-will resource.


Magic weapons are not assumed as part of the base rules, even at level 20, so adding in a magical weapon is a homebrew/houserule.

We can go back and forth with "this works IF you add in this houserule".

Fighters have no way, unless they pick up magic weapon spell via Eldritch knight, to have a magical piercing weapon. Rogue could do this a lot easier with arcane trickster as they have a source of extra damage to go along with their weapon damage.

So your defense against Warlocks is that two subclasses would need to spend a rare resource to get a spell that they can't use all that often (2nd level spell) OR use a houserule and assume they have magic weapons?

The champion, battlemaster, thief, and assassin have no I'm class way of getting a magic weapon.

Sharpshooter Eldritch Knight Fighters or Sharpshooter Arcane Trickster Rogues may excel in doing magical piercing damage but ALL Warlocks can excel at ranged (magical) force damage without much effort and especially without house rules.

[Finieous]

You know what's resisted even less often than Force damage? Piercing damage from magical weapons. Warlocks are okay at range, but Sharpshooter fighters excel*. Only Sorlocks can really compete, but Quicken Spell isn't an at-will resource.

-Max

* For instance, for 11th level Crossbow Expert Sharpshooter w/ Magic Weapon cast vs. Spell Sniper Warlock with Hex cast, DPR vs. Mind Flayers is this:

Fighter: avg.4.d20+7?15:d6+16 = 51.40
Warlock: avg.3.d20+9?15:d10+d6+5 = 32.85


Can mind flayers see in magical darkness? I'm thinking no.

[MaxWilson]

Magic weapons are not assumed as part of the base rules, even at level 20, so adding in a magical weapon is a homebrew/houserule.

What. You've gotten rid of warlocks and Eldritch Knights and wizards and paladins? All of those have guaranteed access to magic weapons. In fact, I discussed one such case (11th level Sharpshooter EK with Magic Weapon on his bow) in the post you quoted.

I hate magic items, personally, so you'll never see me make assumptions about PCs finding magic items as part of adventuring. But the guys above don't have to rely on found magic items at all.

==============================================


Can mind flayers see in magical darkness? I'm thinking no.

No. If you swap out Hex for Darkness (assuming you have Devil's sight), you lose d6 damage and gain advantage. In this case, that helps your defenses but actually hurts your offense.

avg.3.d20a+9?15:d10+5 = 31.14

Same conclusion as before: without Sharpshooter/GWM in play, you might as well just play a warlock instead of a fighter.

[Finieous]

No. If you swap out Hex for Darkness (assuming you have Devil's sight), you lose d6 damage and gain advantage. In this case, that helps your defenses but actually hurts your offense.

avg.3.d20a+9?15:d10+5 = 31.14


Which is fine, because the warlock is still going to win that fight. The sharpshooter is up against 120 ft. darkvision and better hope the mind flayer doesn't have a bow of his own.



Same conclusion as before: without Sharpshooter/GWM in play, you might as well just play a warlock instead of a fighter.

Totally agree with that. Still rather be a warlock, even with SS/GWM in play. :smallbiggrin:

[MaxWilson]

Which is fine, because the warlock is still going to win that fight. The sharpshooter is up against 120 ft. darkvision and better hope the mind flayer doesn't have a bow of his own.

Totally agree with that. Still rather be a warlock, even with SS/GWM in play. :smallbiggrin:

Standard counterplay against 120' darkvision is to retreat even further into the darkness (say, 200' or 300') to negate their Darkvision. Ideally you've got an ally like a Shadow Monk who can simultaneously paint the mind flayer with a torch or with Dancing Lights so you can not just cancel disadvantage but also gain advantage.

I'm not saying this is always possible, but that is one reason why tactical doctrine in large dark spaces is to spread the party out with the Sharpshooter on overwatch at the back.

I agree that warlocks are surprisingly fun. I rolled up a warbearian the other day for a test party (Barb 1, Warlock 1-5ish (Thirsting Blade), Barb 2-3 (Bear), Warlock 6-17 (True Polymorph)) and now am itching to play him. Barbarians and warlocks both have the same "offense uber alles" feel to them which invites reckless resource expenditure, and a warbearian ends up being about as much fun as a full barbarian in melee while also being a great switch hitter. The only down side is that it's MAD, so it's a class combination that only really works when you roll well on stats, i.e. it's rare.

[Malifice]

Magic weapons are not assumed as part of the base rules, even at level 20, so adding in a magical weapon is a homebrew/houserule.

Nah man, homebrew is crunch you make up yourself. A houserule is tinkering with the RAW.

Magic itmes are not assumed in default maths, but they feature in every game Ive seen or played in.

Its like discounting magic items in 1E and 2E. The expectation is that peeps are gonna have a few by endgame.


Fighters have no way, unless they pick up magic weapon spell via Eldritch knight, to have a magical piercing weapon.

Aside from picking up a magical piercing weapon of course.

[SwordChuck]

Nah man, homebrew is crunch you make up yourself. A houserule is tinkering with the RAW.

Magic itmes are not assumed in default maths, but they feature in every game Ive seen or played in.

Its like discounting magic items in 1E and 2E. The expectation is that peeps are gonna have a few by endgame.



Aside from picking up a magical piercing weapon of course.

House rules and homebrew are the exact same thing. They are both changes to the core game made by the DM in order to change it in some way. When you make a house rule you may be using your own rule (homebrewing rules IS a thing) or you may be using official stuff. Your houserule may be to allow homebrew classes and races.

Picking up a magical weapon is dependant on the DM saying "for this game we will have magic weapons" which goes against the core rules of the game for PCs (pcs can't make the choice to gain magic weapons unles you are a warlock, monk (technically), or use the spell). Thus, it is a houserule implimented by the DM.

PCs are not assumed to get anything other than what their class says and what the DM house rules they get.

[Malifice]

House rules and homebrew are the exact same thing. They are both changes to the core game made by the DM in order to change it in some way. When you make a house rule you may be using your own rule (homebrewing rules IS a thing) or you may be using official stuff. Your houserule may be to allow homebrew classes and races.

Picking up a magical weapon is dependant on the DM saying "for this game we will have magic weapons" which goes against the core rules of the game for PCs (pcs can't make the choice to gain magic weapons unles you are a warlock, monk (technically), or use the spell). Thus, it is a houserule implimented by the DM.

PCs are not assumed to get anything other than what their class says and what the DM house rules they get.

So all the variants (healing, longer rests etc) are 'homebrew' to you?

[Hairfish]

Magic items have been a staple of the fantasy genre in general and D&D in particular since the beginning. Saying they're additions not covered by the existing rules - especially when the DMG contains huge lists of them - is absurd.

The PHB even implicitly suggests when PCs should have them: by around 6th level. This is when monks and moon druids get the ability for their unarmed/natural attacks to count as magical for purposes of overcoming damage reduction. This isn't to give them an ability other classes lack, it's to give them an ability that lets them use their primary method of dealing damage as effectively as weapon-wielding classes.

[MaxWilson]

The PHB even implicitly suggests when PCs should have them: by around 6th level. This is when monks and moon druids get the ability for their unarmed/natural attacks to count as magical for purposes of overcoming damage reduction. This isn't to give them an ability other classes lack, it's to give them an ability that lets them use their primary method of dealing damage as effectively as weapon-wielding classes.

Uh, I'd say the opposite about the monk/moon druid. Those abilities are neither special nor interesting if magic weapons are just ho-hum available to everyone. As a DM, they make me even less eager to give out magic items, since "not having magic weapons" is a choice the barbarian made by being a barbarian instead of a monk or moon druid.

Monk = low DPR, but good against special threats like werewolves
Barbarian = high DPR, but somewhat less effective than the monk against special threats unless someone casts Magic Weapon

Niche protection works better if the Barbarian does not have a guaranteed magic weapon.

[Hairfish]

So, your view is that some loot in published adventures and some results in the random treasure tables in the DMG do not explicitly say that magic items are available to the party, with no mention of any alternative for DMs who don't award magic items?

I mean, c'mon. Even Out of the Abyss, the published adventure with a specific theme of stripping the party of their gear and forcing them to survive in an alien environment, awards a +2 weapon and +2 armor after an encounter with a CR 4 mini-boss.

[-Jynx-]

Uh, I'd say the opposite about the monk/moon druid. Those abilities are neither special nor interesting if magic weapons are just ho-hum available to everyone. As a DM, they make me even less eager to give out magic items, since "not having magic weapons" is a choice the barbarian made by being a barbarian instead of a monk or moon druid.

Monk = low DPR, but good against special threats like werewolves
Barbarian = high DPR, but somewhat less effective than the monk against special threats unless someone casts Magic Weapon

Niche protection works better if the Barbarian does not have a guaranteed magic weapon.

Wait wait so you're going to punish your fighter, rogue, and barbarian for specifically not playing a magic class or monk? I'm not oppose to throwing the occasional monster with resistances that the party has a hard time dealing with, but you'd just deny those melee classes magic weapons for their career inherently rendering the useless later game where plenty of monsters have non-magic resistance?

You're not one of those "If you're not playing a wizard, you're garbage" kinda dms are ya?

[MaxWilson]

Wait wait so you're going to punish your fighter, rogue, and barbarian for specifically not playing a magic class or monk? I'm not oppose to throwing the occasional monster with resistances that the party has a hard time dealing with, but you'd just deny those melee classes magic weapons for their career inherently rendering the useless later game where plenty of monsters have non-magic resistance?

"The occasional monster with resistances" doesn't even have resistances if everyone has the right to a magic weapon, does it?

And as a DM, I tend to be a little bit looser on this philosophy because I know that players like having magic items, so I've given out a Sword of Life Stealing (later reforged into a Glaive of Lifestealing) and a magic shortsword (d6 psychic damage) in addition to some other stuff like Shield +3, Robe of the Archmagi, Bag of Devouring, Cloak of the Mountebank, Pearl of Power (most of them with names and secondary properties). However, as a player my preference would be to have zero found magic items. I don't like 'em, don't find 'em as cool as intrinsic powers, and I don't like it when DMs give out lots of loot. I quit one 5E campaign in part because the DM was giving out +5 magical Greatswords of Sharpness with Magic Resistance and stuff like that, then unleashing liches and dragons on an 8th-10th level party. It felt like it was the magic items doing all the fighting and not the players. In a game like that, the Moon Druid/Monk abilities wind up feeling like penalties instead of powers.

So, "deny... magic weapons... rendering them useless later game" is not a thing in my games, but "when I want to play Conan I don't want to play Scrooge McDuck with his treasure vault of magic" is a thing. If I'm going to play a Champion I'd rather actually play a Champion and go smash orcs and things, and have to use my wits to defeat werewolves and iron golems, which are virtually the only monsters in the whole game who are flat-out immune to nonmagical weapons. (Yes, I know, krakens too.) 5E is specifically designed so that a GWM PM Barbarian can still cream a Pit Fiend with nonmagical weapons. It would be a shame to ignore that region of the play space and never experience that challenge.

[-Jynx-]

"The occasional monster with resistances" doesn't even have resistances if everyone has the right to a magic weapon, does it?

A random magic resistant monster here, or non-magical weapon resistant monster there early levels especially help present real challenge and diversity (I think) in a party full of different classes. There are however plenty of resistances that aren't dependent on magic per say. Fire resistance for example. I digress though.


And as a DM, I tend to be a little bit looser on this philosophy because I know that players like having magic items, so I've given out a Sword of Life Stealing (later reforged into a Glaive of Lifestealing) and a magic shortsword (d6 psychic damage) in addition to some other stuff like Shield +3, Robe of the Archmagi, Bag of Devouring, Cloak of the Mountebank, Pearl of Power (most of them with names and secondary properties). However, as a player my preference would be to have zero found magic items. I don't like 'em, don't find 'em as cool as intrinsic powers, and I don't like it when DMs give out lots of loot. I quit one 5E campaign in part because the DM was giving out +5 magical Greatswords of Sharpness with Magic Resistance and stuff like that, then unleashing liches and dragons on an 8th-10th level party. It felt like it was the magic items doing all the fighting and not the players. In a game like that, the Moon Druid/Monk abilities wind up feeling like penalties instead of powers.

I'm not saying to hand out a +3 Sword of demon slaying, but the occasional +1 sword or polearm or what have you to help keep a melee character pertinent in a fight against a creature lvl 6 and beyond that does have non-magic resistance seems like a good idea. I'm also not advocating raining dozens of magic items on your characters either. Everyone's magic item drops will vary, but your characters should at least mid-level get a couple that help them keep up with those kind of resistances. You're punishing them for their class choice otherwise.


So, "deny... magic weapons... rendering them useless later game" is not a thing in my games, but "when I want to play Conan I don't want to play Scrooge McDuck with his treasure vault of magic" is a thing. If I'm going to play a Champion I'd rather actually play a Champion and go smash orcs and things, and have to use my wits to defeat werewolves and iron golems, which are virtually the only monsters in the whole game who are flat-out immune to nonmagical weapons. (Yes, I know, krakens too.) 5E is specifically designed so that a GWM PM Barbarian can still cream a Pit Fiend with nonmagical weapons. It would be a shame to ignore that region of the play space and never experience that challenge.

Wait... you think your barbarian can beat a pit fiend without a magic weapon? You aren't familiar with the MM pit fiend are you?

[MaxWilson]

I'm not saying to hand out a +3 Sword of demon slaying, but the occasional +1 sword or polearm or what have you to help keep a melee character pertinent in a fight against a creature lvl 6 and beyond that does have non-magic resistance seems like a good idea. I'm also not advocating raining dozens of magic items on your characters either. Everyone's magic item drops will vary, but your characters should at least mid-level get a couple that help them keep up with those kind of resistances. You're punishing them for their class choice otherwise.

You're letting them experience their class choice, instead of invalidating it.


Wait... you think your barbarian can beat a pit fiend without a magic weapon? You aren't familiar with the MM pit fiend are you?

Allow me to clarify my position, since a GWM Barbarian would actually not be my choice to kill a Pit Fiend, and he couldn't do it solo. (Flight + infinite Fireballs = bad news for the barbarian.)

5E is specifically written so that a non-magical party full of e.g. Thieves and Champions can still potentially beat a CR 20 Pit Fiend. It would be a shame to never experience that.

Four 20th level PM/GWM Barbarians vs. a Pit Fiend that was ground-bound would cream the Pit Fiend without using magic weapons though. Assuming that one of the Barbarians is holding the Pit Fiend prone, each Barbarian except the one grappling him is doing about 29 points of damage per round to the Pit Fiend, and the Pit Fiend is doing 68 points of damage back (halved for resistance). The grappling barbarian is doing 12 points of damage instead of 29.

That means the Pit Fiend is losing 99/300 HP = 33% of its total HP each round, while the PCs are losing 34/(245*4) = 4.5% of their total HP each round. So yeah, the Barbarians are going to cream the Pit Fiend. Not a solo barbarian, but a group of 4 PCs.

[-Jynx-]

You're letting them experience their class choice, instead of invalidating it.

Again it perpetuates the ideal that if you're not a magic user you're irrelevant and your unwillingness to provide the tools necessary for a melee character to do their job competently just furthers that problem. Can they function without a magic weapon? Sure, but it doesn't change the fact that they will be severely lacking in damage because of it.




Allow me to clarify my position, since a GWM Barbarian would actually not be my choice to kill a Pit Fiend, and he couldn't do it solo. (Flight + infinite Fireballs = bad news for the barbarian.)

5E is specifically written so that a non-magical party full of e.g. Thieves and Champions can still potentially beat a CR 20 Pit Fiend. It would be a shame to never experience that.

Four 20th level PM/GWM Barbarians vs. a Pit Fiend that was ground-bound would cream the Pit Fiend without using magic weapons though. Assuming that one of the Barbarians is holding the Pit Fiend prone, each Barbarian except the one grappling him is doing about 29 points of damage per round to the Pit Fiend, and the Pit Fiend is doing 68 points of damage back (halved for resistance). The grappling barbarian is doing 12 points of damage instead of 29.

You're gimping a pit fiend, then having one barbarian hold the pit fiend down while the others try and pummel it and passing it off as an experience? Of course you're going to beat it when you take away its mobility and throw 4 barbarians at it that's not a fair fight and you know it.


So yeah, the Barbarians are going to win because I'm altering a monster to favor a group of barbarians. Not a solo barbarian, but a group of 4 PCs.

Fixed that for you. I still don't get this experience bit you're trying to sell. I wouldn't make you carve a turkey with a plastic knife just for the "experience".

[Vogonjeltz]

A friend and I are discussing the difference between the 2 barbarian paths and id like some outside opinions. I believe totem is over all stronger marked heavily By bear totem 1 and 3, and the over all variety of RP flavors the other totems offer . The lack of extra attack from frenzy is easy enough to make up for.

His argument is that without Bear 1, Totem has nothing to bring to the table comparatively. He emphasizes how strong Frenzy can be and the fear and charm cancellation/immunity .

IMO Frenzy loses a lot of steam after 1 or 2 encounters because of the multiple stacks of exhaustion. Making up for this at higher levels in a way with nearly unlimited rage duration.
He disagrees because he doesn't think Its that big a deal based of how often your in combat. But our table mates tend to hit first and ask questions later. So i feel after 1 encounter a day ,with 2 or 3 expected, It loses it usefulness too quickly.

What do you all think?

If by stronger you mean in combat, then it's Frenzy all the way. As your friend rightly notes, Totem Warrior has very little to offer for combat.

Bonus action attacks are possible to acquire, but they come at a significant cost and are strictly inferior to the Frenzy bonus action attack:

1) With the starting array (rolled stats being highly variable) a character would have to be a Variant Human, Mountain Dwarf, or Half-Orc to cap Str and Con and be able to still have a feat, with anyone else missing out on maximizing their core stats.

2) The attack from Polearm Master is a lesser damage die and requires you to use a lower damage die weapon, reducing overall output vis frenzy. Great Weapon Master's bonus action attack is circumstance reliant and thus won't always happen.

3) Absent a 1st level feat via Variant Human, Frenzy is also available earlier than the other options, allowing a second attack with a two-handed weapon 1 level before a feat and 2 levels before Extra Attack.

[MaxWilson]

Fixed that for you. I still don't get this experience bit you're trying to sell. I wouldn't make you carve a turkey with a plastic knife just for the "experience".

Dude, if you're using a Pit Fiend in a scenario where it can chuck Fireballs from the air, I hate to break it to you but magic weapons are irrelevant. Barbarians in that scenario are toast, with or without magic weapons.

[JumboWheat01]

Dude, if you're using a Pit Fiend in a scenario where it can chuck Fireballs from the air, I hate to break it to you but magic weapons are irrelevant. Barbarians in that scenario are toast, with or without magic weapons.

Unless they are a halfling or gnome barbarian, in that case, get your strongest buddy to pick you up and throw you at the enemy. Ranged Melee Attack, like a boss.

[N810]

Am I the only one who took Sentinel for their Berserker Barbarian ? :thog:

[Aldarin]

Totem master. Always take Totem master.
Why? The Bear insane resistances, the limited magic, the flying speed with eagle. Keeps you relatively SAD (no need for bumping CHA)