3.5 Core Iconics at 1st level

[Eladrinblade]

I'm going to be DMing for a couple of newbies, and I thought I might have them go through a simple dungeon with a basic party to get a handle on the game. So that's why I made these, and it's why they lack any social skills, but regardless, what changes or additions (if any) would you make to these representations? For the lack of social skills, just assume we can add Gimble or Devis at any point.

Tordek
LG Dwarf Fighter
Str 15, Dex 14, Con 14, Int 13, Wis 10, Cha 6
Climb 2, Jump -4, Swim -2
Power Attack, Cleave
Common, Dwarven, Giant
Scale Mail, Heavy Wood Shield/Tower Shield, Waraxe, x2 Javelins

Mialee
N Elf Wizard
1 - Mage Armor, Sleep
Str 10, Dex 16, Con 11, Int 15, Wis 12, Cha 8
Arcana 4, Concentration 4, Decipher Script 4, Spellcraft 4
Listen 3, Search 4, Spot 3
Improved Initiative
Common, Elven, Draconic, Sylvan
Longbow, x20 Arrows, Longsword, Spellbook (Mage Armor, Sleep, Grease, Silent Image, Reduce Person)

Lidda
CG Halfling Rogue
Str 11, Dex 17, Con 12, Int 14, Wis 10, Cha 8
Balance 6, Disable Device 6, Escape Artist 6, Hide 10, Listen 6, Move Silently 8, Open Lock 7, Search 6, Spot 4, Tumble 6
Climb 2, Jump -4
TWF
Common, Halfling, Goblin, Orc
Studded Leather, x2 daggers, Javelin, Dart, Thieves Tools

Jozan
NG Human Cleric
1 - Bless, Magic Stones, Enlarge Person
Str 13, Dex 10, Con 14, Int 8, Wis 15, Cha 12
Concentration 6, Religion 3
Improved Turning, Extra Turning
Common
Scale Mail, Light Wood Shield, Morning Star, Sling, x10 bullets, holy symbol, Scroll of Cure Light Wounds

[Know(Nothing)]

The only things I can think of are:

A) Especially with beginners, passive feats are probably going to make things go more smoothly. Power Attack, Cleave, Improved Turning, and TWF will make things far more involved than perhaps you intend. You know your players though, so if they easily pick up on when to use stuff like that, and how it works without bogging things down, that's your call. I, for one, forgot half of my abilities the first time I played.

B) This one is purely an opinion thing, but I just found Tordek to be kind of boring? Krusk, to me, would be a more fun addition to the party, netting you a similar area of influence(melee combat) with the added addition of his lack of social prowess not affecting things negatively too much, and still making sense in-character. Hitting things is all well and good, but when you tell your player that they get to be a huge crazy half-orc, that's when they'll really connect to the game and have fun with it. Totally a style choice though, and again, you know your players.

Otherwise looks great, I like the premise.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Tordek
I'd maybe use throwing axes as something more dwarf-y. Otherwise looks fine.


Mialee
I'd swap Reduce Person for something offensive-- Magic Missile would be the most iconic, I suppose, but Color Spray, Ray of Enfeeblement, or Enlarge Person would be good too. (If you want her effective I might swap Improved Initiative for Rapid Shot, but that's not very iconic).


Lidda
I wouldn't go with TWF-- between +0 BAB and Strength 11, her to-hit will be utter crap for the moment. Honestly, give her a shortbow and an archery feat (Point-Blank Shot, maybe?). She'll be a lot more useful that way.


Jozan
Magic Stones? Not particularly powerful or iconic, methinks. Maybe Shield of Faith, Bane, or Protection from Evil. The scroll also seems odd.

Also a not-entirely-RAW-suggestion: Give the casters a wand of something-- it's no fun to run out of your main schtick super-quickly. Magic Missile would be good for Mialee, and Jozan...maybe Bless? Though that high Dex and longbow proficiency should keep her from being useless (she's probably the best archer in the party, actually).

[Hal0Badger]

I would make newbies start at level 2, not 1, probably with maximized HPs, so that they won't die easily. Level 2 only gives some class features, at best a new feat for a fighter, which can be weapon focus or improved initiative, so not much tinkering needed.

I know it is possible to make it less deadly for level 1 characters, but I find it more captivating when playing against an orc band, rather than just killing some rats.

[Troacctid]

Aren't the iconics normally supposed to use the stats from their class's starting packages?

[Eladrinblade]

Starting packages? Lol no. Maybe for the basic gear.

Anyway, I suppose I should explain some of my choices.

Fighter and not barbarian: barbarians are a bit less tactical, and have a tendency to die faster (low AC and eagerness to plow right in). The fighter has good HP, a very good AC, and two feats to help get used to tactical decisions. We're gonna be using a grid and the environments will be pretty detailed/thought out. I'm gonna let them choose between a heavy shield and a tower shield, after explaining exactly what tower shields do and the differences between them. Javelins are strictly better than throwing axes (for main-hand throwing anyway), but I get your point.

With Mialee, I wanted to give her a decent array of good iconic spells, but not really the best spells, but then not bad ones either (like magic missile). Sleep is iconic and pretty good at 1st level (and introduces them to full-round actions). Reduce person is for lidda, more on that later. Improved Initiative because its going to be important for her to go first, in part due to her vulnerability, and partly to get sleep off before enemies can move. Silent Image, Grease, and Mage Armor are self-explanatory.

Lidda has TWF for throwing weapons. With a thrown weapon, she has a base +5 to the attack. With TWF, that's +3/+3. With reduce person, it's +5/+5 again, with bless its +6/+6, and with magic stones its +7/+7 (and 1d6+0, too, not just a javelin at 1d4-1 or a dart with 1d3-1), against undead its 2d6+1.

With Jozan, magic stones is for lidda (and one for himself with the sling) when fighting undead or during otherwise important battles. Improved Turning because I'm going to use undead at some point, and it's best to get acquainted with these things early. Enlarge person is for tordek. The scroll is just to help out a bit; he didn't spend much gold.

And we have a nice party using synergy to make each other better, along with some fairly simple tactical options to get them used to these things. I can build on it later with the more advanced stuff.

As for level 1, I want them to have to think and be careful and not just rush in all the time (or even often, for that matter). They will be fighting goblins (mostly) and orcs (a few). Normally, I would put rats with goblins, but I actually want to save that for later with another adventure I have in mind. For now, all I know is goblins/orcs/skeletons/zombies/ghoul(s)/an ogre/and maybe a wyrmling dragon (if they gain a level or two). Plus traps and other problems/puzzles/skill challenges.

[atemu1234]

Starting packages? Lol no. Maybe for the basic gear.

Anyway, I suppose I should explain some of my choices.

Fighter and not barbarian: barbarians are a bit less tactical, and have a tendency to die faster (low AC and eagerness to plow right in). The fighter has good HP, a very good AC, and two feats to help get used to tactical decisions. We're gonna be using a grid and the environments will be pretty detailed/thought out. I'm gonna let them choose between a heavy shield and a tower shield, after explaining exactly what tower shields do and the differences between them. Javelins are strictly better than throwing axes (for main-hand throwing anyway), but I get your point.

With Mialee, I wanted to give her a decent array of good iconic spells, but not really the best spells, but then not bad ones either (like magic missile). Sleep is iconic and pretty good at 1st level (and introduces them to full-round actions). Reduce person is for lidda, more on that later. Improved Initiative because its going to be important for her to go first, in part due to her vulnerability, and partly to get sleep off before enemies can move. Silent Image, Grease, and Mage Armor are self-explanatory.

Lidda has TWF for throwing weapons. With a thrown weapon, she has a base +5 to the attack. With TWF, that's +3/+3. With reduce person, it's +5/+5 again, with bless its +6/+6, and with magic stones its +7/+7 (and 1d6+0, too, not just a javelin at 1d4-1 or a dart with 1d3-1), against undead its 2d6+1.

With Jozan, magic stones is for lidda (and one for himself with the sling) when fighting undead or during otherwise important battles. Improved Turning because I'm going to use undead at some point, and it's best to get acquainted with these things early. Enlarge person is for tordek. The scroll is just to help out a bit; he didn't spend much gold.

And we have a nice party using synergy to make each other better, along with some fairly simple tactical options to get them used to these things. I can build on it later with the more advanced stuff.

As for level 1, I want them to have to think and be careful and not just rush in all the time (or even often, for that matter). They will be fighting goblins (mostly) and orcs (a few). Normally, I would put rats with goblins, but I actually want to save that for later with another adventure I have in mind. For now, all I know is goblins/orcs/skeletons/zombies/ghoul(s)/an ogre/and maybe a wyrmling dragon (if they gain a level or two). Plus traps and other problems/puzzles/skill challenges.

What books do you have access to? That may widen the field.

[Eladrinblade]

I'm sticking to core for this game. My players are brand new.

[Chronos]

Quoth Eladrinblade:

Improved Initiative because its going to be important for her to go first, in part due to her vulnerability, and partly to get sleep off before enemies can move.
There's a difference between a casting time of 1 round (like Sleep) and a full-round action, and Improved Initiative won't actually help you cast Sleep before enemies can move. When a spell has a casting time of 1 round, it doesn't go off until the start of your next turn, which means that everyone always gets a chance to move (or to attack you to disrupt the spell), regardless of initiative. This is the main reason I consider Color Spray to be a better spell than Sleep.

[Eladrinblade]

Right, but if she starts casting it on a surprise round, she can finish on her first turn if she goes first. Color spray requires her 4hp butt to be very close to melee.

[Aleolus]

[Strikethrough]Mialee actually should have more spells. You have two listed, but a 1st level Wizard gets 2 + an extra one fot each point of their Int, so with a 15 Int she should have 4 spells.[/strikethough]

Also, with her Int only being 15, I would avoid having her take spells that allow a save if possible, since enemies will make those saves all the more often. Or else take spells that still have a partial effect if the target makes the save, that way something is still happening.

EDIT: Nevermind my first point, I was looking at spells prepared, not her spellbook

[Eladrinblade]

Orcs have a -2 will save, goblins have -1. Her DC's should be 13, so the odds are in her favor.

[Aleolus]

Orcs have a -2 will save, goblins have -1. Her DC's should be 13, so the odds are in her favor.

Yes, but not as much in her favor as a DC of 14 or 15 would be. I've always been really leery of playing dedicated casters with less than a 17 in their casting stat, honestly.

Hell, I've always been leery of playing anything that didn't have at. least a 16 in whatever their classes main stat is period

[Eladrinblade]

Well, that's the elite array for ya.

[Aleolus]

Well, that's the elite array for ya.

Yes, which is why I prefer the version my friend came up with some years back. If we decided to use his elite array, we used 18, 17, 16, 15, 14, and 13. Made for (seemingly) more well rounded characters.

But. This is getting off topic, so back onto it. Other than the comment I made about Mialee, they seem decently put together (though Reduce Person on Lidda, while improving her accuracy, would hurt her damage, since she is already small)

[Hal0Badger]

As for level 1, I want them to have to think and be careful and not just rush in all the time (or even often, for that matter). They will be fighting goblins (mostly) and orcs (a few). Normally, I would put rats with goblins, but I actually want to save that for later with another adventure I have in mind. For now, all I know is goblins/orcs/skeletons/zombies/ghoul(s)/an ogre/and maybe a wyrmling dragon (if they gain a level or two). Plus traps and other problems/puzzles/skill challenges.

For some strange reason, I thought this was a one-shot adventure. If you are confident that you can balance things out at level 1 for new comers, it is okay to start from level 1.

What I would suggest is, do not give them chained feats as starting packages. I mean, if you gona give Tordek Power Attack, don't give Cleave, suggest it when they level up. It will feel more progressive. Same can be done with spells, prepare an area which gives players a trouble (yet not lethal) and cannot be countered with current wizard spell selection. If he/she is hooked up, he will look to cover his/her weakness when they level up.

For me, there are 2 important good hooks in DnD to make someone like this system:
Roleplaying: Doing anything you wish, without a limit but consequences. This would hook up players coming from video gaming.

Leveling up: When they start to dig through books to choose a feat or a spell, they will be hooked into the game.

If you can cover this 2 bases with your premade characters, at least up to some point, you are good to go.

[Telok]

Actually first level rogues are pretty hosed for feats in core. With weapon finesse and point blank shot requiring +1 BAB and TWF stacking on penalties.

[Chronos]

I'd actually go with Improved Initiative as a core rogue's first feat. Initiative is good for everyone, of course, but it's even more important when there's a rogue in a fight, because it can enable or prevent sneak attack.

[gtwucla]

Passive feats, even improved saves as other people said. And depending on your style of play, I'd give them a lot of room to role play/figure stuff out, so even passive skill stuff where you roll as many skill checks as they do. For character builds the thing that got me interested were the special attack options like grappling, so Improved Grapple could be fun for one of the melee characters. That way the players realize there's more to attacking than spells and hacking.

[Fizban]

I have to disagree with the idea of pushing passive feats for their own sake, you can't learn if you don't do.

Fighter: Power Attack+Cleave is a good introduction to a bunch of things: stuff that you turn on and off whenever you want, stuff that's not as useful now but will be better later, and feat chains.

Wizard: also some good introductions, though I'd put the difference in casting times between Sleep and the rest in big bold letters. Full round casting time spells are pretty rare, Sleep and Summon Monster are the only examples that come quickly to mind. Silent Image is a good example of how magic lets you do whatever you want, and while initially I would have also suggested Magic Missile I like your plan to introduce combo shenanigans with Reduce Person+halfling. Maybe bring some attention to that scribe scroll feat and how two spellcasters can work together on item creation-to make cleric scrolls even though the cleric doesn't have the feat.

Rogue: introduces TWF, requiring thrown weapons highlights the immediate problem that classic rogues need more stuff to do melee than they can really get at low levels. I'd add some more throwing weapons and leave notes about how the hide skill works: I think a lot of people don't realize that with some relatively minor obstacles/doorways/corners a rogue can roll hide and sneak attack every 1-2 rounds even after the fight starts. Hiding is part of movement, all you need to do is duck 'round the corner to break line of sight, turn back, peek around the corner with a hide check and shoot (depending on the angle: if they're too close to the wall you'll need to step out into the open and take -5 per 5' on the hide check), and remember to stay close to your cover since you take another -5 hide if you have to move more than 10'. Make sure to highlight how that small size is giving +1 attack and AC both in exchange for the smaller weapon dice. In general it's a very specialized character that shows both how you can stack bonuses from lots of places and also that rogues tend to need it.

Cleric: I see that you did get Enlarge Person in there. Not sure I agree with the Magic Stones combo as much, it's some good teamwork but it's not a tactic that can last. Then again that's another good thing to learn: some stuff just doesn't work forever. Definitely don't agree with Improved Turning though. Being able to destroy 1HD skeletons at level 1 is basically the only use of that feat, and that sets a very bad precedent where turning=awesome when in actuality turning=adequate backup that is completely outclassed at later levels. Don't have any better suggestions really, aside from Extra Turning being far better in my estimation. I assume you've picked domains but just haven't written them here: I'd suggest one with a boring static bonus and one with an interesting effect, to illustrate the range, the classics are Healing or Good and Sun.

There's almost enough ranged weapons, I'm assuming you ran tight on starting gold. I'd like to see a Longspear in there, never too early to learn about reach vs. the world, unless they're intended to figure that out as a result of Enlarge Person rather than bog standard simple weaponry.