Class: Torchbearer

[weaseldust]

The world is filled with dark places harbouring darker threats. As a torchbearer, you have taken upon yourself to go out to the places from which civilisation has retreated, or to which it has not yet spread, bringing light to illuminate and drive back those threats. You are both a scholar and a warrior, since it is your passion for the fruits of civilisation that drive you to protect it from its antithesis in the monsters of the wilderness. Indeed, you must have poetry, or history, or geometry to fall back on in the dark of night in order to maintain the will to pursue your defence against that darkness.

You might have been driven to adventure by news of a necromancer who needs to be destroyed, or in search of a lost volume of the speeches of a great cultural icon which you wish to reclaim for civilisation, or to protect a particular individual as they venture out into chaos and wilderness. In any case, as an adventurer, you bring your knowledge and focus to bear in detecting and holding back creatures you identify as threats. In particular, you wield a flaming torch at almost all times, using its light to drive those threats away.
Basic Information

Hit Dice: d8

Weapon and armour proficiencies: simple and martial weapons, light and medium armour

Save proficiencies: wisdom and strength

Skills: two from History, Medicine, Nature, Religion, Survival

Starting equipment: 20 torches; a scimitar or shortsword; 6 darts or a sling and a bag of sling bullets; leather armour or a chain shirt; a scholar's or dungeoneer's pack




Level
Features
Torch Damage Die


1
Torch Ever Ready, Eyes in the Darkness, Light of Civilisation
d4


2
Threat Perception, Threat Repulsion, Threat Analysis
d4


3
Favoured Haunt
d4


4
ASI
d4


5
Extra Attack
d4


6
Penetrating Light
d4


7
Vigilance
d6


8
ASI
d6


9
Haunt Feature
d6


10
Blinding Light
d6


11
Searing Brand
d8


12
ASI
d8


13
Haunt Feature
d8


14
Guiding Light
d8


15
Danger Anticipated
d10


16
ASI
d10


17
Threat Obstruction
d10


18
Haunt Feature
d10


19
ASI
d10


20
Threat Preemption
d12




Features

Torch Ever Ready (1)

Your torch is a symbol of the light you seek to protect, as well as your primary weapon. You can create a torch from suitable materials as an action, or create twenty per minute. Any torch you wield cannot be destroyed or extinguished against your will.

Your torch damage die starts as a d4 and increases as shown in the Torchbearer table.

While you wield a lit torch, when you hit with a melee weapon attack using a weapon you wield in your other hand, you may roll your torch damage die and deal additional fire damage equal to the result. You may not use this ability if you attack with the torch in the same turn.


Eyes in the Darkness (1)

You are constantly on the alert for danger and discovery. You are proficient in Investigation and Perception. While you wield a lit torch, you have advantage on Investigation and Perception checks that require sight and relate only to things within 20 feet of you.

You may use a bonus action to Search, to light a torch, lantern, or similar piece of equipment, or to extinguish it.


Light of Civilisation (1)

You embody the light of civilisation as much as you serve it. You gain proficiency with a musical instrument and learn two additional languages. You have advantage on checks to recall information about the art, scholarship, and outstanding individuals of cultures whose language you speak (except for Common).


Threat Perception (2)

You excel in detecting and illuminating threats, keeping track of them so that they cannot gain the upper hand on you or your companions. At any time, you may have a number of creatures no greater than your wisdom modifier marked as threats. As a bonus action, you may mark any number of creatures you can see as threats and have others cease to count as threats. While within 40 feet of you, a creature that is marked as a threat has disadvantage on checks made to hide or move silently and it cannot have advantage on attacks you or against allies who can see or hear you.


Threat Repulsion (2)

You can use your torch to drive threats back. While you wield a lit torch, you may use an action to make one weapon attack with your torch against each creature within 5 feet of you that is marked as a threat. You may not move between these attacks. If you hit, a target takes fire damage equal to your torch damage die and is pushed 10 feet directly away from you, unless that would move it into an occupied space.

Note that, when you gain the Extra Attack feature from this class at level 5, it also applies to your Threat Repulsion.


Threat Analysis (2)

Your pursuit of truth and illumination extends to your insight into the behaviour of others. Choose one of the following abilities:

Face Reading: While you have a creature marked as a threat, so long as you can see its face and it is within 300 feet of you, you can read its lips and determine its emotional state without error

Body Reading: While you have a creature marked as a threat, you can always recognise it under a disguise and it cannot hide from you while invisible unless it is also heavily obscured from you

Speech Reading: While you have a creature marked as a threat, you can always tell when it is lying


Favoured Haunt (3)

Each torchbearer seeks out a dark and dangerous place to make their stand for the light, and their abilities reflect the place where they first began their long vigil against the dark. Choose one of the haunts detailed at the bottom of this document: the Necropolis or the Sewer. You gain further features related to your choice of haunt when you reach levels 9, 13, and 18 in this class.


Extra Attack (5)

When you take the Attack action, or when you use your Threat Repulsion ability, you may make one additional attack against any valid target.


Penetrating Light (6)

In your hands, a torch can do much more work than would be expected of a simple flame. While you wield a lit torch, you can see in magical darkness as if by the light of your torch (i.e. in bright light to 20 feet, and in dim light for another 20). Whenever you deal fire damage with your torch damage die, you may choose for the damage to be radiant in type instead.


Vigilance (7)

You senses are always working to the fullest of their abilities. Whenever you make an Investigation or Perception check using sight, if the result is lower than your passive perception score, you may use your passive perception instead.

Your continued practice in observing the world around you has also made you capable of great feats of vigilance. Choose one of the following abilities:

Vigilant Rest: When you spend a long rest keeping watch, so long as you do not engage in any other activity, you may benefit from the rest as if you had spent the time sleeping or trancing, and you do not suffer any other penalties from failure to sleep or trance.

Vigilant Friendship: You are always aware when a creature is charmed or possessed, so long as you have known them while they were not charmed or possessed.

Vigilant Travel: You suffer no disadvantage to perception for travelling at a fast pace, you can always retrace your steps without error, and you can sense natural changes in the weather 6 hours before they occur.


Blinding Light (10)

When you deal fire or radiant damage with a weapon attack while wielding a lit torch, you may use a bonus action to attempt to blind the target. They must succeed on a constitution save against a DC equal to 10 plus your proficiency bonus plus your wisdom modifier or else be blinded until the end of their next turn.


Searing Brand (11)

Your enemies feel your torch burn hotter than any mundane flame has a right to. You double the result on your torch damage die when you add it to the damage from a weapon attack or your Threat Repulsion ability.


Guiding Light (14)

You are committed to lighting the way for your allies. Choose one of the following abilities:

Light amid Chaos: When you use your turn to cease being surprised, you may also move. Further, whenever you move within 5 feet of another creature while wielding a lit torch, you may cause it to cease being surprised.

Light in Shadow: While you wield a lit torch, you have blindsight out to 20 feet. Further, so long as you are not in magical darkness, your allies within 20 feet can also see the region within 20 feet of you as if they had blindsight.

Light before Feet: While you wield a lit torch, creatures within 20 feet of you are not affected by difficult terrain.


Danger Anticipated (15)

Your watchfulness allows you to see danger coming and avoid taking its full brunt. When you are forced to make a dexterity save to avoid some or all damage from a source you can see (such as a trap or spellcaster) while wielding a lit torch, you may roll your torch damage die and reduce the damage you take by the amount rolled, to a minimum of 0.


Threat Obstruction (17)

You are constantly at the ready to drive away threats to yourself and your allies. Whenever a creature within 5 feet that is marked as a threat makes an attack, you may use your reaction to make an attack against it with a lit torch. If you hit, you deal it fire or radiant damage equal to your torch damage die plus your wisdom modifier. It must succeed on a constitution save against the damage dealt or have disadvantage on attack rolls until the end of its turn, including the one that triggered this ability.


Threat Preemption (20)

You are so adept at spotting threats you seem to react almost before they appear. You cannot be surprised. Additionally, when you are asked to roll for initiative, but before anyone has rolled, you may mark creatures you can see as threats as if you had used a bonus action. After initiative is rolled, you may set your initiative equal to that of any of the threats you marked and take your turns immediately before theirs.



Favoured Haunt: Necropolis

From the village graveyard, to remote cairns, to sprawling cities of the dead, places of interment must be carefully watched, prone as they are to spawning shades and shambling corpses. You seek out burial sites both from interest in the history they embody and from a hatred of undead, who shun the light and who have always posed a danger to civilisation.


Necropolitan Adaptation (3)

You have adapted to the dangers of the necropolis. You are resistant to necrotic damage. You are immune to being frightened or possessed.

You have advantage on perception checks made to detect undead and they always count as marked as threats. You may still have a number of additional creatures up to your wisdom modifier marked as threats.


Ghost Hunter (9)

You have learned to detect ethereal creatures and to make them quail under the light of your torch.

You can see into the ethereal plane to a distance of 20 feet.

So long as you are wielding a lit torch, you may add your torch damage die to Athletics checks made to shove. You can push or knock prone ethereal creatures and creatures that are usually immune to being knocked prone.


Reassuring Air (13)

The light of your torch represents hope in the face of death and darkness. While you wield a lit torch, allies within 20 feet of you are immune to being frightened or possessed.


Dismaying Light (18)

You have learned to exploit the light sensitivity common among creatures of the darkness. So long as you wield a lit torch, all undead and creatures with sunlight sensitivity have disadvantage on attack rolls and ability checks that depend on sight while within 20 feet of you.



Favoured Haunt: Sewer

Many large settlements exist atop a labyrinth of sewers. They tend to harbour foul vermin attracted to the damp and darkness, which must be sought out and exterminated lest they swarm out into the unprepared city above. A life in the sewers requires a strong connection to the light, both internal and external, in order to avoid death and madness, and so you are uniquely suited to this task of guarding civilisation from the dangers below.


Sewer Adaptation (3)

You have adapted to the dangers of the sewers. You are resistant to poison damage and are immune to disease and the poisoned condition.

You have advantage on perception checks made to detect rats, insects, and aberrations, and they always count as threats to you. You may still have a number of additional creatures up to your wisdom modifier marked as threats.


Sewer Fighter (9)

You have learned to adapt to and exploit tight spaces. You suffer no disadvantage from being squeezed into a confined space. You have advantage on attacks against targets that are adjacent to a wall or similar vertical surface.


Cleansing Air (13)

The light and hearty smoke of your torch banishes all feelings of sickness or weakness in your comrades. While you wield a lit torch, an ally that starts their turn within 20 feet of you can choose to ignore the effects of poisons or diseases affecting them until the start of their next turn.


Dispersal (18)

You have grown adept at holding back tides of vermin and other light-fearing enemies. So long as you wield a lit torch, you may use your action to concentrate on driving off threats. Until the start of your next turn, whenever a creature marked as a threat starts its turn within 20 feet of you, it must succeed on a wisdom save against a DC of 8 plus your proficiency bonus plus your wisdom modifier or else become frightened of you until the end of your next turn. A swarm that fails the save is instead incapacitated until the end of your next turn.

[Ivellius]

I really do like this. I think it could maybe use a bit more fluff, but it's a really interesting concept that stands alone and lends itself to a strong feel and contribution to the game.

It could definitely use some cleaning up of the language (for instance, you want Threat Repulsion to be made as an Attack action) and maybe work on what it's trying to do with the archetypes, but it's just generally good and has a lot of unique utility.

[Sisyphean0]

I really like the idea, but as is the case with my ideas as well, it's too weak. I know it's probably just a class you want for flavour, but maybe an attack thats essentially spraying ether into the torch making a cone of fire effect that uses the same torch die scaling. A little extra attack power and aoe.
Also just an idea to have some sort of alchemical solutions to add to the torch, making it have extra properties.

[weaseldust]

I really do like this. I think it could maybe use a bit more fluff, but it's a really interesting concept that stands alone and lends itself to a strong feel and contribution to the game.

Thanks for the appreciation. I'm still trying to find a good balance when it comes to writing fluff. It's obviously really important, but I find the PHB style a bit cheesy, and I don't want to write so much it becomes boring, obscure, or setting-specific.


... you want Threat Repulsion to be made as an Attack action

I was conflicted about this. I decided not to make it an Attack action because too many other things key off that (e.g. two-weapon fighting). I see Threat Repulsion basically as a special non-magical cantrip unique to the class. Do you think that's a mistake?

Also, do you have time to expand on your comment about the archetypes? My reasoning was that, if I'm making specialisations for a class focused on locating and reducing the threat of enemies, it makes sense for those specialisations to be particular kinds of threats. I'm not sure how well I captured that, though. I initially had flavour abilities at level 3 to help define the archetypes (advantage on checks to decipher inscriptions or recall knowledge about burial practices for the first, versus always knowing your depth underground and your relation to any entrances and exits you know of for the second) but I worried they made the level too cluttered. I regret taking them out now, but I don't want to amend the class after it's been entered.



I really like the idea, but as is the case with my ideas as well, it's too weak. I know it's probably just a class you want for flavour, but maybe an attack thats essentially spraying ether into the torch making a cone of fire effect that uses the same torch die scaling. A little extra attack power and aoe.
Also just an idea to have some sort of alchemical solutions to add to the torch, making it have extra properties.

I see its role as a Rogue/Monk cross. It gets 4 skill proficiencies and special bonuses with respect to a very important skill, but it isn't as powerful or versatile as a Rogue skill-wise. It can also blind and push around enemies, but its control powers aren't quite as good as the Monk's. Also, it has no resource restrictions. So I think as long as it deals damage similar to those classes, it's OK.

With a longsword, a Torchbearer averages 7+str damage per Attack action at level 1, 14+2*str at level 5, 27+2*str at level 11, and 31+2*str at level 17. A Rogue with a rapier or longbow averages 8+dex at level 1, 15+dex at level 5, 25.5*dex at level 11, and 36+dex at level 17. They aren't completely in line because the Rogue's damage grows unusually smoothly as it gains levels, but they're pretty similar.

On top of that, Threat Repulsion is an alternative to the Attack action that can sometimes deal more damage after level 5 and is already a sort of mini-AoE that also pushes enemies around. I think that adding major AoE capability on top of the skill and control abilities the class already has would be too much. (Note that the Sun Soul Monk is allowed AoE powers, but they come at the expense of control.)

Also, I'd like to keep the class relatively simple and non-magical like the Rogue, so I don't see alchemy as part of the base class, but an alternative archetype could maybe use that. Any particular Torchbearer could in fact be relying on alchemy - after all, their torch can't be extinguished against their will, which includes burning underwater or in outer space, and it has the effects of a much brighter and hotter flame than you would expect from a torch - but it's also open for them to simply have a real knack for making and wielding ordinary torches. (Actually, when I started, the class was a Thurifer who burned incense to affect allies and enemies, but it didn't fit this month's theme as well and had various other problems, so I basically rejected that idea in favour of this one. But an alchemist Torchbearer would probably look a lot like that.)

[Ivellius]

Thanks for the appreciation. I'm still trying to find a good balance when it comes to writing fluff. It's obviously really important, but I find the PHB style a bit cheesy, and I don't want to write so much it becomes boring, obscure, or setting-specific.

I was conflicted about this. I decided not to make it an Attack action because too many other things key off that (e.g. two-weapon fighting). I see Threat Repulsion basically as a special non-magical cantrip unique to the class. Do you think that's a mistake?

Also, do you have time to expand on your comment about the archetypes? My reasoning was that, if I'm making specialisations for a class focused on locating and reducing the threat of enemies, it makes sense for those specialisations to be particular kinds of threats. I'm not sure how well I captured that, though. I initially had flavour abilities at level 3 to help define the archetypes (advantage on checks to decipher inscriptions or recall knowledge about burial practices for the first, versus always knowing your depth underground and your relation to any entrances and exits you know of for the second) but I worried they made the level too cluttered. I regret taking them out now, but I don't want to amend the class after it's been entered.

Sure, let's expand a bit. I was initially doing this in a bit of a rush, and I like to make comments on all the class entries before I provide votes.

The thing about Threat Repulsion is that it explicitly does take the place of an attack when you take the Attack action. The reason is because it requires an action but can also be done multiple times once you get Extra Attack. Writing it in this way wouldn't allow for it to be made as a bonus action (a la TWF). Was there some drawback you were trying to get around in writing it the way you did? As far as I can tell there's no reason to not write it as such, and it would be less confusing within the system--you wouldn't have to write in the exception for Threat Repulsion to work with Extra Attack.

I think I would also rewrite things such that the Torch Damage die goes up to two when you get Searing Brand and just rewrite the later abilities to use only one of the torch damage dice. It would feel more like how they write other things, I think.

The archetypes don't feel quite cohesive to me, and I'm not sure how I feel about specializing in a particular "haunt" (although I do really like that archetype name and the image it provides). For the Necropolis Haunt, it's mostly the Dismaying Light--it seems strange that it works only on undead and light sensitive creatures and is pretty specialized for a capstone. The other abilities feel generically useful enough but also provide some extra oomph against threats typical undead creatures, though I'm not sure if making allies immune to fright and possession screams "undead protector" as much as "fiend protector." Sewer is more of a mixed bag--the enemy types of its adaptation seem narrow. Aberrations don't exactly scream "sewer" to me (I know there are some, like otyughs, but beholders and mindflayers don't really lair in those kind of places), and rats and insects would be of limited application. Dispersal doesn't feel like something a Sewer Torchbearer should necessarily have, either--it's not particularly more effective against swarms and the kinds of threats you'd find there, and while it might work well as a capstone it should probably be more unique to the archetype.

[weaseldust]

Thanks for taking the time to expand on your advice.


The thing about Threat Repulsion is that it explicitly does take the place of an attack when you take the Attack action. The reason is because it requires an action but can also be done multiple times once you get Extra Attack. Writing it in this way wouldn't allow for it to be made as a bonus action (a la TWF). Was there some drawback you were trying to get around in writing it the way you did? As far as I can tell there's no reason to not write it as such, and it would be less confusing within the system--you wouldn't have to write in the exception for Threat Repulsion to work with Extra Attack.

I wasn't worried about using Threat Repulsion as a bonus action, I was worried about using it as an action, then using two-weapon fighting to make an attack with the shortsword (or whatever) in your other hand. It shouldn't work without the Dual Wielder feat because torches are nowhere identified as light weapons, though I've seen people try to claim unarmed strikes and shields as light weapons for that purpose, so I suppose I got a bit paranoid. But I was mostly working on the principle that lots of things key off the Attack action and it's just better not to risk unexpected combos.

In my head, it's not much like actually swinging your torch like a sword, and more like spinning it or getting it in enemies' faces to drive them back. I should maybe have just based it on a constitution save instead of an attack roll.

By the way, the idea with Threat Repulsion and Extra Attack is that you get to make one more attack with it at level 5, rather than using it twice. My intention was that using Threat Repulsion when surrounded by 3 enemies should be equivalent to or superior to simply attacking, depending on how much you want to get them away from you, and the torch damage die progression, Extra Attack, and Searing Brand were designed to make that happen.


I think I would also rewrite things such that the Torch Damage die goes up to two when you get Searing Brand and just rewrite the later abilities to use only one of the torch damage dice. It would feel more like how they write other things, I think.

I couldn't think of a parallel in an existing class. It felt more awkward to write exceptions than to write a general rule, if you know what I mean.


The archetypes don't feel quite cohesive to me, and I'm not sure how I feel about specializing in a particular "haunt" (although I do really like that archetype name and the image it provides).

That seems fair. My concept for the class is that being a wandering adventurer isn't a full time job for a Torchbearer - the normal course of affairs is to find somewhere that needs watching and stay there until you die or it stops being dangerous. I didn't really make that explicit, though. Perhaps it would work better if there were more different haunts?


For the Necropolis Haunt, it's mostly the Dismaying Light--it seems strange that it works only on undead and light sensitive creatures and is pretty specialized for a capstone. The other abilities feel generically useful enough but also provide some extra oomph against threats typical undead creatures, though I'm not sure if making allies immune to fright and possession screams "undead protector" as much as "fiend protector."

For Dismaying Light, I just liked the idea of playing on sunlight sensitivity. Maybe I should just swap the level 13 and 18 features for both subclasses to put a more generally applicable feature at level 18?

Immunity to possession is to deal with ghosts. Immunity to fright is more because undead are traditionally considered scary, not because they standardly cause the frightened condition, though I think the banshee's wail maybe excludes those immune to fright (I can't look it up at the moment).


Sewer is more of a mixed bag--the enemy types of its adaptation seem narrow. Aberrations don't exactly scream "sewer" to me (I know there are some, like otyughs, but beholders and mindflayers don't really lair in those kind of places), and rats and insects would be of limited application. Dispersal doesn't feel like something a Sewer Torchbearer should necessarily have, either--it's not particularly more effective against swarms and the kinds of threats you'd find there, and while it might work well as a capstone it should probably be more unique to the archetype.

Yes, I was thinking of otyughs and carrion crawlers, but there isn't an easy way to distinguish them from other aberrations. I have put mindflayers in the sewers before, because it's a good place to spy on and predate humanoids in the city above, but I know it's not standard. I think maybe I should just abandon the parallelism between the archetypes (it isn't very common in PHB classes) and change the level 3 ability to be unconnected to particular creature types.

The idea behind Dispersal is that things like rats and cockroaches will scurry away to hide if you shine a light on them, and that idea is just being extended to more dangerous things. Again, if I swapped the level 13 and level 18 features, maybe it wouldn't stick out so much?

[Ivellius]

I wasn't worried about using Threat Repulsion as a bonus action, I was worried about using it as an action, then using two-weapon fighting to make an attack with the shortsword (or whatever) in your other hand. It shouldn't work without the Dual Wielder feat because torches are nowhere identified as light weapons, though I've seen people try to claim unarmed strikes and shields as light weapons for that purpose, so I suppose I got a bit paranoid. But I was mostly working on the principle that lots of things key off the Attack action and it's just better not to risk unexpected combos.

In my head, it's not much like actually swinging your torch like a sword, and more like spinning it or getting it in enemies' faces to drive them back. I should maybe have just based it on a constitution save instead of an attack roll.

By the way, the idea with Threat Repulsion and Extra Attack is that you get to make one more attack with it at level 5, rather than using it twice. My intention was that using Threat Repulsion when surrounded by 3 enemies should be equivalent to or superior to simply attacking, depending on how much you want to get them away from you, and the torch damage die progression, Extra Attack, and Searing Brand were designed to make that happen.

I would think it's fine anyway, but the additional marked targets given by a class might make it too strong. If you see it as more of a spell-like effect, keying it off of an ability save would probably be good, but I don't think it'd be all that imbalanced to just allow it given that it's tied to your marked enemies. Having said all of that, if I understand your intentions correctly, you want it to be that with Extra Attack you can use Threat Repulsion + one attack or two attacks, not Threat Repulsion twice, correct? I would say that as written that's not how it would work (I read what you currently have to mean that you can Threat Repulsion twice with the Attack action).

If you think two Threat Repulsions would be too many, I wouldn't really worry about giving one plus an additional attack. I would think it would be rare to sacrifice two solid attacks (considering torch bonus damage) for Threat Repulsion anyway, and the movement restrictions on the ability make it not particularly great to use twice.


I couldn't think of a parallel in an existing class. It felt more awkward to write exceptions than to write a general rule, if you know what I mean.

Off-hand, I can't think of any abilities that do things like "Get more than what's on this table," if that makes sense, so I think just having the Torch damage dice increase and rewriting the later abilities would really be better. If you wanted a similar feel, you could instead substitute adding your Wisdom modifier to torch damage dice when making attacks / Threat Repulsion.


That seems fair. My concept for the class is that being a wandering adventurer isn't a full time job for a Torchbearer - the normal course of affairs is to find somewhere that needs watching and stay there until you die or it stops being dangerous. I didn't really make that explicit, though. Perhaps it would work better if there were more different haunts?

Flavorwise, I think it's probably fine--the concept of staying in a particular area and attuning yourself to its threats is good. The name "Haunt" in particular is very evocative. But I worry after looking at the subclass options that it's made it difficult to come up with cohesive class archetypes. The level 13 features are generally pretty good--they're related to the early features you get and give you some useful group utility, which starts coming online for classes at that point. But some of the restrictions are just very specific and/or don't fit the flavor. I understand frightened / possession are things that undead cause, but I'm not sure they're specific enough to undead that the Necropolis Haunt should have them as opposed to some other archetype. Make sense? Similarly, Dismaying Light is pretty specific but also includes Sunlight Sensitivity in what it can affect for some reason, which isn't a thing possessed by most undead. Some creatures make sense to oppose in the sewers, but not everything that's included in the archetype.

Basically, in an effort to make these archetype features more broadly useful, you're reaching the point at which they stop making sense and are no longer focused. Sure, shining a torch at swarms should cause them to scatter, but that doesn't take much training, so why would a Sewer Haunt have that and other archetypes don't? And why does that also work on other creatures?

This is my favorite of all the submissions this go-around, and I just want to see it come together a little better. With permission, I'd even rewrite the base class features for you--not changing how they act but just making them a bit more standardized compared with other classes.

[weaseldust]

If you want to re-write it, that's fine with me. That said, while I appreciate your advice, and while I aim not to write in a confusing way, I'm not particularly bothered about aping the PHB style and in future I'll probably just keep writing in the way that's natural for me. So please don't take it as an insult if whatever I post next time still doesn't look like a PHB class!

I think the only thing I still want to clear up is how Threat Repulsion and Extra Attack work together. It's meant to be explained under the entry for Extra Attack at level 5, which is written differently than for all other classes (I imagine you disapprove, but it seemed convenient at the time). At level 2, if you have 3 threats within range, you can make 3 attacks with your torch using Threat Repulsion (and no others with any kind of weapon), one against each target. After level 5, you can make an additional attack with your torch (and not another weapon) against one of those targets. Without that boost, the difference in damage from the Attack action grew too large. Being able to use Threat Repulsion twice instead would (a) add too much damage and (b) take away from the 'use when surrounded' feel, so it's not something I want to do.

I do think that just having Searing Brand add your wisdom modifier to attacks and Threat Repulsion would be a lot better. The only reason I didn't do that in the first place was because I had originally included another ability that let you add your wisdom mod in certain circumstances and I didn't want to double up.

On the archetypes, the intention is that various minor aspects of the haunts are being blown up into things that are more generally effective (e.g. Dispersal takes something you do with bugs and lets you do it with everything). I can see how they might feel bitty, though.

[Ivellius]

If you want to re-write it, that's fine with me. That said, while I appreciate your advice, and while I aim not to write in a confusing way, I'm not particularly bothered about aping the PHB style and in future I'll probably just keep writing in the way that's natural for me. So please don't take it as an insult if whatever I post next time still doesn't look like a PHB class!

I think the only thing I still want to clear up is how Threat Repulsion and Extra Attack work together. It's meant to be explained under the entry for Extra Attack at level 5, which is written differently than for all other classes (I imagine you disapprove, but it seemed convenient at the time). At level 2, if you have 3 threats within range, you can make 3 attacks with your torch using Threat Repulsion (and no others with any kind of weapon), one against each target. After level 5, you can make an additional attack with your torch (and not another weapon) against one of those targets. Without that boost, the difference in damage from the Attack action grew too large. Being able to use Threat Repulsion twice instead would (a) add too much damage and (b) take away from the 'use when surrounded' feel, so it's not something I want to do.

As I hope you're seeing through this, there's a lot of value in writing consistently with the existing rules so that abilities are clear. With several of them it's clear what you're intending, but writing in a particular way may also allow for certain loopholes to exist.

It's not clear at all that you're meant to get an extra attack with your torch and only your torch when using Threat Repulsion past 5th level, and I think given that Threat Repulsion scatters people simply allowing it to happen twice isn't really a problem--you would almost always get less damage than making another weapon attack. Having said that, it also allows for a combo involving pushing someone into a crowd and then Threat Repulsing that now slightly larger crowd. You might consider allowing a saving throw (probably Strength) to resist the push effect if the target desires.


On the archetypes, the intention is that various minor aspects of the haunts are being blown up into things that are more generally effective (e.g. Dispersal takes something you do with bugs and lets you do it with everything). I can see how they might feel bitty, though.

Sure, I've gotten that, and it's actually necessary so that they're not niche abilities. The problem is that the archetypes don't feel very cohesive when you do that, and then it also makes it harder to justify particular choices for the archetype features--as a player I would question why a Sewer Haunt Torchbearer can scare stuff away with light while no other Torchbearers can.

[Submortimer]

All in all, I think this is really interesting, but it kind of goes against 5e design philosophy: as a class, it is overly specialized. Were I to write something like this, I'd make it either a fighter or ranger subclass.

[Ivellius]

All in all, I think this is really interesting, but it kind of goes against 5e design philosophy: as a class, it is overly specialized. Were I to write something like this, I'd make it either a fighter or ranger subclass.

Other than the subclasses, I'm wondering how you're arriving at that opinion. It's a utility / control type class far beyond what the fighter chassis would provide; you could probably do a ranger archetype that gets some of the feel but not anywhere near what the mechanics actually do. It's not particularly generic in terms of its fluff, but that will be true of almost any new classes that are created due to the broadness of current base classes.

[Submortimer]

Other than the subclasses, I'm wondering how you're arriving at that opinion. It's a utility / control type class far beyond what the fighter chassis would provide; you could probably do a ranger archetype that gets some of the feel but not anywhere near what the mechanics actually do.

I wouldn't say it's FAR beyond what the fighter can provide, but it is more. Moreover, with a modification of something like the Battle master, you could easily get similar battlefield control options.



It's not particularly generic in terms of its fluff, but that will be true of almost any new classes that are created due to the broadness of current base classes.


Exactly my point: these should be subclasses, not a base class. If you want it to be a base class, figure out a way to make it less specialized until you get to the subclasses.

[Submortimer]

That being said, should you stick with class as is, I would put a third subclass in devoted to The Underdark...it would fit in so neatly.

[weaseldust]

All in all, I think this is really interesting, but it kind of goes against 5e design philosophy: as a class, it is overly specialized. Were I to write something like this, I'd make it either a fighter or ranger subclass.

I sort of agree, though I'd go for Rogue if I had to make it a subclass. But the Barbarian and Monk are existing classes that are also highly specialised (they can basically only be played one way) and could be implemented as Fighter archetypes instead.

I think making a new class is justified if it's the simplest way of introducing a large number of new things together. If I made the Torchbearer a subclass, I could use some of the ideas above, but others would have to be split off as feats, or just abandoned. Making a class for them to live in makes them all available without introducing any unnecessary clutter.

I think it's also justified when it allows you to play a concept at all levels without any extraneous features. Making it a Fighter subclass would mean you didn't get any light- or perception-related abilities until level 3, and you'd already have, for instance, Second Wind, which has no obvious connection to the Torchbearer concept. The same goes for the Barbarian and Monk in different ways.


On a different note, I completely agree about the need for an Underdark archetype. I'll try to add one after the contest ends.

[Ivellius]

I wouldn't say it's FAR beyond what the fighter can provide, but it is more. Moreover, with a modification of something like the Battle master, you could easily get similar battlefield control options.

Wondering where all those allied utility features are in my PHB. (Battlemaster doesn't count as it's a class option and thus not part of the base chassis.)

This is pretty general, though, in that I can easily imagine different Torchbearer options / orders, and it has tons of abilities you couldn't implement as part of any other class (and would pick up unnecessary things). Frankly, it is less specialized than what the subclasses could be (though I've been discussing some problems in the current version of subclass features). Your argument is basically that no one should make new classes for 5e, and while I do think it's good to take advantage of the subclass system as a design feature I can't really say there's no room for other full classes.