Tale of arcane classes...

[Aetis]

Long, long time ago, in the allegorical world of D&D 3.5, there was a wizard, sorcerer, beguiler, warmage, and a warlock apprenticed to a powerful mage.

One day, their master gave them their final task as apprentices: to meet him in the other side of a mountain. The mountain was home to a number of very dangerous creatures.

The wizard luckily prepared a teleport earlier that day. She snapped her fingers, and completed the task in 6 seconds.

The sorcerer did not know how to cast teleport, but he did know fly. He flew over the mountain, and completed the task in 6 minutes.

The beguiler did not know how to cast teleport or fly, but she did know invisibility. She trekked through the mountain while invisible, and completed the task in 6 hours.

The warmage did not know how to cast teleport, fly, or invisibility, but he did know fireball. He fought his way through the mountain, and completed the task in 6 days.

The warlock did not know how to cast teleport, fly, invisibility, or fireball, but she did know eldritch blast. She fired straight at the mountain and dug a tunnel to the other side, completing the task in 6 years.

Now, let me ask you, my dear readers. What is the moral of this story?

[Triskavanski]

Well that the warlock should have taken better invocations.

For example, up in the Dark Invocations is "Shadow Walk" which would have gotten him on the other-side of the mountain in a hour.

Fell Flight - and he would have been up there with the sorcerer
Walk Unseen- and he would have been up there with the beguiler
I don't know which one it is, but there is also a shape that would have made it a fireball size eldritch blast.

[ben-zayb]

The moral of the story is that these CHA-based magicians should try investing more ranks in UMD. Sheesh.

EDIT: Beguilers have UMD as a class-skill, too, so no excuses.

[John Longarrow]

That none of them actually met their master since the Bard spent one minute using diplomacy to invite him over for dinner?

[Waazraath]

That the wizards in these stories 'luckily' always have the right spell prepared for the job required, and that wizards in real games are often less powerful then they are on optimization forums. (though, fair enough, a single teleport is prolly something that most wizards would have. Then again, I don't really believe that a sorcerer wouldn't have any for of teleportation, if only a few castings of dimension door)

[MisterKaws]

I don't know a single warlock who would not get all movement-based invocations, moreso if this warlock is gonna be doing epics, as he would surely want that tasty at-will greater teleport and plane shift.

The moral of the story is: lvl 30 warlocks are demigods.

[John Longarrow]

MisterKaws

Yep, there demigods alright... doing exactly what their friendly epic bard asks them to do... :-)

[MisterKaws]

MisterKaws

Yep, there demigods alright... doing exactly what their friendly epic bard asks them to do... :-)

Morpheme Savant makes you apply your charisma three times on social skills tho.

[ATHATH]

Morpheme Savant makes you apply your charisma three times on social skills tho.
It still pales to Glibness, however.

[Quertus]

The moral of the story is that the bard wrote the story, and met the master in paradise. Or just convinced the master to kill the other apprentices for xp. And was recruited into his army of hell after 6 centuries.

[Troacctid]

Fables like these often shine a light on the culture of the society that created them. What we see here is a classic example of how Warlocks are feared, mistrusted, and misunderstood. The Warlock in this tale is depicted as foolish, weak, and destructive. He lacks the strength of the Wizard and the subtlety of the Beguiler. All he can do is blast his way through his problems—a crude and myopic solution.

In reality, of course, this tale reveals more about the prejudices of the tellers than the flaws of the Warlocks they disdained. We know from our vantage point as historians and anthropologists that true Warlocks have powers of flight and invisibility that vastly outstrip those of a Sorcerer or Beguiler (although the Wizard would indeed be better at teleporting).

It's also clear from this tale that the properties of magic were not widely known among the common folk who might have passed along the oral tradition. A true spellcaster would know that Invisibility has only a short duration, and does not mask the subject from hearing, scent, or tremorsense, so it would be atypical for a caster to remain invisible and hidden for six hours in an environment filled with monsters that likely hunt with senses other than sight. Teleport is also an imprecise spell, and it's highly unlikely that the Wizard would have arrived directly at his destination.

[John Longarrow]

Troacctid,

You lack a true understanding of the subtlety a beguiler brings. If the wizard is casting teleport, then the beguiler is often walking past the dimwitted creatures of the forest. Rogues and Rangers enjoy the same ability to pass unseen a skilled beguiler has. Invisibility is but one of their tools. They also do not need the wizards 'luck', they are simply that good.

They also make friends easily. While the wizard may teleport quickly, the beguiler will often show up with a few weak willed 'helpers', just for good measure.

[Troacctid]

Troacctid,

You lack a true understanding of the subtlety a beguiler brings. If the wizard is casting teleport, then the beguiler is often walking past the dimwitted creatures of the forest. Rogues and Rangers enjoy the same ability to pass unseen a skilled beguiler has. Invisibility is but one of their tools. They also do not need the wizards 'luck', they are simply that good.

They also make friends easily. While the wizard may teleport quickly, the beguiler will often show up with a few weak willed 'helpers', just for good measure.

In the fable, the Beguiler just casts Invisibility.

[John Longarrow]

Troacctid

In reviewing the story, that's because that is what the beguiler being tested WANTED their master to think...

[ericgrau]

Now, let me ask you, my dear readers. What is the moral of this story?
Always carry scrolls to be ready for any random event regardless of what class you are.

Also, the wizard didn't prepare scry that day and has never viewed the destination even once so teleport would fail. He thought about spending 15 minutes to prepare scry but with his high int he knew that would fail on his master plus with no knowledge of any other target they would pass their will save with the +10 bonus too. So he cast fly as well and arrived 6 minutes later. He could have teleported to a nearby town on the other side of the mountain which he had briefly seen before, but that has a chance of error and at 6 minutes travel time this must be an awfully small mountain so it's quicker to just fly.


That the wizards in these stories 'luckily' always have the right spell prepared for the job required, and that wizards in real games are often less powerful then they are on optimization forums. (though, fair enough, a single teleport is prolly something that most wizards would have. Then again, I don't really believe that a sorcerer wouldn't have any for of teleportation, if only a few castings of dimension door)
That's true, but teleport is popular enough for it to be plausible to have prepared. Too bad it doesn't work.

[Troacctid]

That's true, but teleport is popular enough for it to be plausible to have prepared. Too bad it doesn't work.

A little less plausible for an apprentice. Apprenticeships traditionally end at level 6, well before the apprentice would have mastered any 5th level spells.

[Âmesang]

Being a fan of WORLD OF GREYHAWK® I was kind of hoping that either the wizard or sorcerer, at least, would have apprenticed under Slerotin and learned that "epic excavate" spell of his to create a… what was it? 300 ft. wide × 200 mile long tunnel through the Crystalmysts?

(I always forget the exact dimensions, including height.)

[Telonius]

Now, let me ask you, my dear readers. What is the moral of this story?

A Warlock can make it out of an apprenticeship at 1st level. It just takes a bit of time.

[Quertus]

A little less plausible for an apprentice. Apprenticeships traditionally end at level 6, well before the apprentice would have mastered any 5th level spells.

This just supports the theory that the bard convinced the master to keep the others around long enough to be worth XP - their apparent unusual level for apprentices is what made me interpret the story that way in the first place.

And the master gave them a challenge - get to the other side of the mountain - which would enable him to defeat them individually.

[John Longarrow]

Of course this makes the master worth that much more when the bard does turn on him...

:belkar:

[Zanos]

That the wizards in these stories 'luckily' always have the right spell prepared for the job required, and that wizards in real games are often less powerful then they are on optimization forums. (though, fair enough, a single teleport is prolly something that most wizards would have. Then again, I don't really believe that a sorcerer wouldn't have any for of teleportation, if only a few castings of dimension door)
First of all, if you have access to teleport, and didn't prepare it that day at least once, you should reevaluate your spell selection. Even if you aren't going somewhere, you might need to be far away from someplace very quickly.

Secondly, wizards can leave slots open and prepare spells in those open slots later in the day in fifteen minutes. Even if you don't have the correct spell, getting is trivial. That's not even getting into the tremendous number of ways a good wizard can cast any spell in their spellbook in a single action.

[MisterKaws]

It still pales to Glibness, however.

Yeah, of course, it's not like epic characters have +20 charisma bonuses or anything, right?

[Endarire]

That level 9 (assumedly) is a long time to be an apprentice.

And the Warlock (assumedly also level 9) could have gotten there faster depending on his buid and gear.

[ericgrau]

A little less plausible for an apprentice. Apprenticeships traditionally end at level 6, well before the apprentice would have mastered any 5th level spells.

They traditionally end at the level where the character is an elite champion? :smallconfused:

I think this is a sliding scale. Really they should end before level 1, or else in some sense you might be an apprentice for life or until you surpass your master. You are a great hero, but still in the shadow of your master, etc.

Again, moot because teleport doesn't work. He probably has not visited the destination before and the spell fails. Even with some knowledge of the destination it's inaccurate and unreliable enough that the wizard is taking far longer than 6 seconds to walk the remaining distance once he pops off target. Assuming the mishap isn't dangerous. If he left a precious high level slot open to prepare teleport, then add 15 minutes to that. If he's level 11 or so so that dedicating a 5th level spell slot to teleport in the morning is no big deal, then the sorcerer probably knows it too. So yeah, way longer than 6 seconds on average, usually several minutes.

But yeah it's often too long for an adventure where there's time pressure so I like to have lots of different scrolls to always be prepared to act with one standard action.

[Troacctid]

They traditionally end at the level where the character is an elite champion? :smallconfused:

See Dungeon Master's Guide II, pp. 175-180.

[ericgrau]

See Dungeon Master's Guide II, pp. 175-180.
That's the apprenticeship feat though. The concept could end at nearly any level.

The feat also forces the mentor to be 5th level plus modifiers, then when you reach his level-ish the apprenticeship is over which makes sense. Which isn't a bad idea in general. But it's way too rigid to describe all masters as being near 5th level.

[Waazraath]

First of all, if you have access to teleport, and didn't prepare it that day at least once, you should reevaluate your spell selection. Even if you aren't going somewhere, you might need to be far away from someplace very quickly.

Secondly, wizards can leave slots open and prepare spells in those open slots later in the day in fifteen minutes. Even if you don't have the correct spell, getting is trivial. That's not even getting into the tremendous number of ways a good wizard can cast any spell in their spellbook in a single action.

As for the teleport, it probably is available, I mentioned that in my earlier post. Though for getting away from a place quickly dimension door often suffices, as do many other spells, so it depends a bit on the level of the wizard. And, as mentioned by others, it probably doesn't work, unless the wizard is familiair with the other side of the mountain.

For the rest, it's still the boyscout fallacy ('always prepared') / schrodingers wizard. Yes theoretically, the wizard could be prepared. Could have left a slot open. Except, this wizard must have done so. And the slot needs to be high enough. And haven't been spend yet, this very day. And in this story, he'd still arrive after the sorcerer (even with a crappy spell selection). If we reason by what could be, well, then all the other characters who aren't the wizard could have spend the wealth they didn't need to spend to scribe all spells in excistence in a spellbook on a teleportation item instead. Or could have rune staffs. Or could have feats that increase their spell options. Etc.

Hell. At the time this story takes place, and all these mid to high level full casters are spending time and rescources to get over that mountain, a level 5, 'tier 5' paladin sits on his flying drakkensteed, ten hours long, circling over the mountain to look what all the fuzz is about.

[Inevitability]

Now, let me ask you, my dear readers. What is the moral of this story?

The warlock was impossibly lazy.

Let's assume the warlock is dealing 2d6 damage per eldritch blast (the minimum to overcome stone's hardness of 8).

She deals an average of 20 damage per 36 hits, or 380 damage per 684 hits. To hit 684 times, she'll have to attack 720 times (assuming she only misses on a 1).

In other words, 720 attacks deal 380 damage, and 2160 attacks deal 1140 damage. Stone has a thickness of 15 HP/inch. In these 2160 rounds (216 minutes, or 3 hours and 36 minutes), she is wearing away 76 inch of stone (six feet and four inches).

If she were to work eight hours a day, she'll be able to wear away around 14 feet of stone per day. Assuming she does this for six years, she'll have worn away 30660 feet of stone by then: a little under six miles. This, however, would be more than enough to tunnel through mount everest.

Seeing that the sorcerer could fly over the mountain in six minutes, it can't really be wider than thousand feet or so. The warlock could have tunneled thirty times that distance in those six years! Even in six months she could easily have done it!

Q.E.D: the warlock was wasting incredible amounts of time on something else, to the point that we should start to question her dedication to the mountain tunnel project.

---------------------


Now, let me ask you, my dear readers. What is the moral of this story?

The wizard's solution was purely selfish. No good came of it for anyone but her.

The sorcerer's solution was selfish, too, but at least she viewed the mountain from above, potentially gathering knowledge on the location of its monsters.

The beguiler's solution was much like the sorcerer, except that she gathered much more valueable information.

The warmage's solution removed a large number of threats from the mountain, making it by far the second-most altruistic solution.

The warlock's solution created a tunnel all future generations would be able to use, completely removing the problem of having to deal with the monsters. Trade bloomed between the mountain's opposite sides, and for many generations thereafter the warlock was thanked for her gift to the peoples who lived near the mountain.

[ericgrau]

The reason the warlock took so long was that he saw the genius of his plan and built a network of tunnels before seeing his master. Not only has travel and trade boomed through the formerly dangerous mountain, an entire underground civilization sprouted up under the mountain. Wealthy from trade and tolls, it became one of the most prominent and powerful cities in the kingdom.

[Triskavanski]

That bands with no talent can easily amuse idiots with a stupid puppet show.

[NuclearCommando]

The StP Erudite laughs at his "master", and continues screwing over the universe. The Erudite's player proceeds to shiv the DM and steal the last pizza slice.

[KillianHawkeye]

I guess the moral of this story is... that the uneducated common folk who hear this fable will accept the absurd premise that a wizard, a sorcerer, a beguiler, a warmage, and a warlock could possibly all be taught by the same mentor? And if they accept that, you can probably take them for all of their meager worth with your fabricated tales of fantasy and morality?

[FocusWolf413]

You really need to compare like to like. If one class takes full advantage of its abilities, the others must as well.

The wizard used teleport. He was lazy and took the shortcut, not learning anything. He wasted his resources as well. Overland flight, any of the better fly spells, alter self, etc would have worked just as well at a lower spell level.

The sorcerer saw the problem, understood that there was no challenge, and took the scenic route. Why not enjoy the view? Mountains are pretty.

Any beguiler worth his salt would have taken this opportunity to recruit minions. The beguiler should have left with an army.

Fireball is not the best spell for the job, but warmages are... bothersome.

Warlocks are exceptionally versatile. They can diplomance with the best of them, fly, teleport, blast all day, sneak around, etc. A decent warlock would use his imbue item ability to summon/bind creatures that could tunnel. If the warlock took 6 years, that's because the mission was the last thing on his mind.

[Thanatosia]

The wizard luckily prepared a teleport earlier that day. She snapped her fingers, and completed the task in 6 seconds.
That's a pretty unoptimized wizard. A real Forum Stereotypical wizard would have used a number of divinations months ago to anticipate the request, and sent her astral projection from her private demiplane to be waiting for her "master" before he arived, completing the task in negative time required.

[Inevitability]

I guess the moral of this story is... that the uneducated common folk who hear this fable will accept the absurd premise that a wizard, a sorcerer, a beguiler, a warmage, and a warlock could possibly all be taught by the same mentor? And if they accept that, you can probably take them for all of their meager worth with your fabricated tales of fantasy and morality?

Perhaps the master was an outsider of insane power (warlock's patron) with levels in Ultimate Magus?

[OldTrees1]

Now, let me ask you, my dear readers. What is the moral of this story?

Don't do whatever unspeakable method the unmentioned apprentice did in 6 months.

or subverted:
Don't believe in patterns just because you can see them.

[Manyasone]

The warlock's solution created a tunnel all future generations would be able to use, completely removing the problem of having to deal with the monsters. Trade bloomed between the mountain's opposite sides, and for many generations thereafter the warlock was thanked for her gift to the peoples who lived near the mountain.

This is, by far, one of the most brilliant responses :smallsmile:

[Inevitability]

This is, by far, one of the most brilliant responses :smallsmile:

Thank you!