Earliest way to gain 3rd level spellcasting from classes for me?

[Platymus Pus]

I need to know this for a build I'm attempting to make with Heartwarder.

Ability to cast 3rd-level spells.
Is the requirement, so I wouldn't mind knowing something beyond the earliest way to gain it from classes.
Multi-classing and gestalt is allowed. (just no multiclassing for the secondary gestalt side, multi10/multi10//gestalt 20. As an example.)
3.0/3.5/PF are all allowed.

[darksolitaire]

Well...how do feel about heightening 1st level spell to 3rd level? Wizard 1 with Precocious Apprentice and arth Spell or sanctum spell can technically cast 3rd level spell. It might be little too much.

[Platymus Pus]

Well...how do feel about heightening 1st level spell to 3rd level? Wizard 1 with Precocious Apprentice and Earth Spell or sanctum spell can technically cast 3rd level spell. It might be little too much.

A bit much, I'd prefer something more solid to stand on terms with a DM than something so situational. I'd just lose all the class levels when I leave Earth spell or sanctum going by level progression.
I could argue that the character progressed all the way to a point if they stayed on Earth Spell I suppose since it's everywhere, but that's still a stretch.
It's possible to get to second level and go heighten level for 3rd level spells which isn't nearly as situational, but that is still 3 levels in wizard.
I need a charisma based spell caster that can do it by level 3 like wizard however. Sorcerer can't do it. Neither can Bard.

[ZamielVanWeber]

A 3rd level illumian wizard with Improved Sigil (Krau) can cast 3rds at 3rd as long as they choose a 2nd for IS(Krau).

[AvatarVecna]

Applying Practical Metamagic or similar to heighten Spell can get the desired effect, and it's totally RAW, even if its super cheesy.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

If you're of a class that automatically knows the spells of the levels it can cast, use Versatile Spellcaster to sacrifice a bunch of cantrips and 1st level spells to create 2nd level slots, and combine those into third level slots. Now you can cast 3rd level spells. Though you may want to wait until you have at least two 2nd levels spells naturally so you don't have to convince your DM that you can combine the phantom 2nd level spell slots created from the 0 and 1st level slots into 3rds.

Or you could take Heighten Spell, if you don't have a class that automatically knows all of its spells.

[Platymus Pus]

A 3rd level illumian wizard with Improved Sigil (Krau) can cast 3rds at 3rd as long as they choose a 2nd for IS(Krau).


In the event that a class feature or other special ability provides an adjustment to your caster level, that adjustment applies not only to effects based on caster level (such as range, duration, and damage dealt), but also to your caster level check to overcome your target's spell resistance and to the caster level used in dispel checks (both the dispel check and the DC of the check).
Krau just gives caster levels, which while neat, isn't what I'm looking for.

Applying Practical Metamagic or similar to heighten Spell can get the desired effect, and it's totally RAW, even if its super cheesy.
I looked into it more, what everyone is suggesting doesn't work at all it just increases the powers of spells you have, same for heighten spell.
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/metamagic-feats/heighten-spell-metamagic---final

Level Increase: The heightened spell is as difficult to prepare and cast as a spell of its effective level.
I would still need a 3rd level slot to cast which is the issue, so that doesn't work.

[Troacctid]

Krau just gives caster levels, which while neat, isn't what I'm looking for.

I looked into it more, what everyone is suggesting doesn't work at all it just increases the powers of spells you have, same for heighten spell.
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/metamagic-feats/heighten-spell-metamagic---final

I would still need a 3rd level slot to cast which is the issue, so that doesn't work.

1. Krau by itself gives a bonus to caster level, which doesn't work, but the Improved Sigil (Krau) feat heightens your spell by 1 level, which does work.
2. Practical Metamagic reduces the spell level adjustment of a heightened spell by 1 level so you can cast a spell heightened to 3rd level by using a 2nd level spell slot.

[AvatarVecna]

Level Increase: The heightened spell is as difficult to prepare and cast as a spell of its effective level.I would still need a 3rd level slot to cast which is the issue, so that doesn't work.

Firstly, quoting PF when we're discussing 3.5 makes it easier to dismiss you; that the same text exists in the 3.5 version excuses you, though, and requires a rebuttal.

Secondly, this is exactly what Practiced Spellcaster does; it is perfectly RAW legal to apply Practiced Spellcaster to Heighten Spell, it's just that you're generally not supposed to, because the idea of casting a 3rd lvl spell in a 2nd lvl slot has a tendency to cause butthurt among the easily upset. Beyond that, we know that there's at least a way of doing this exact thing (casting a 3rd lvl spell in a 2nd lvl slot), because it is explicitly called as as happening when you combine Heighten Spell and Earth Spell.

Thirdly, the text you're quoting is the a rule about Heighten Spell; as a metamagic feat, it serves as a more specific rule than the normal rules of spellcasting, but metamagic reduction/alteration/replacement options are even more specific than metamagic feats. Practiced Spellcaster and similar feats (such as Earth Spell) effectively alter how metamagic feats work.

[Platymus Pus]

1. Krau by itself gives a bonus to caster level, which doesn't work, but the Improved Sigil (Krau) feat heightens your spell by 1 level, which does work.
2. Practical Metamagic reduces the spell level adjustment of a heightened spell by 1 level so you can cast a spell heightened to 3rd level by using a 2nd level spell slot.

I see it now for Krau, but the wording says words such as "as if" and "with no change to spell slot".
You're just casting a level 2 spell "as if" it is in a 3rd spell slot not actually as one.
I don't feel good about my chances on attempting that.

Practical metamagic requires 8 ranks in spellcraft, so I couldn't do that until level 8. It also requires me to be able to spontaneously cast 3rd level magic to begin with. So that's a no.
Already have a metamagic feat, and have the dragonblood subtype.
That's actually impossible to get for me. That's almost as heavy as all the classes I'm multiclassing already.

[DarkSonic1337]

It seems that you're confusing spell slots with spell levels.

You asked for a way to cast a third level spell not a way to gain a third level spell slot. The later is not actually required for the former, which is where your confusion lies.

Most metamagic feats do not actually change the level of the spell despite taking higher level spell slots. Heighten spell explicitly makes a spell count as a higher level, which is where we're getting RAW legal things like heightening spells to be levels higher than the slots used to cast them (earth spell being a rock solid example of this).


If you want actual higher level slots you're going to have to dig a little deeper, with things like extra slot and a crapton of feats (flaws and/or dark chaos shuffle?)


Also for skill ranks remember the cap in 3.5 is your HD+3. You can get 8 ranks in spellcraft at level 5

[MaxiDuRaritry]

(earth spell being a rock solid example of this).I see what you did there.


Also for skill ranks remember the cap in 3.5 is your HD+3. You can get 8 ranks in spellcraft at level 5There are several ways to bypass this. Illithid savant, the Primary Contact feat, bloodlines, and others.

[AvatarVecna]

I see it now for Krau, but the wording says words such as "as if" and "with no change to spell slot".
You're just casting a level 2 spell "as if" it is in a 3rd spell slot not actually as one.
I don't feel good about my chances on attempting that.

Practical metamagic requires 8 ranks in spellcraft, so I couldn't do that until level 8. It also requires me to be able to spontaneously cast 3rd level magic to begin with. So that's a no.
Already have a metamagic feat, and have the dragonblood subtype.
That's actually impossible to get for me. That's almost as heavy as all the classes I'm multiclassing already.

Then go with Earth Spell; it's part of a feat chain, but you can get it at lvl 1 with flaws or bonus feats. Or go with Easy Metamagic; that just requires you possess another metamagic feat...like Heighten Spell. Hell, there's ways to get Practical Metamagic if you're willing to put in the effort: HD shenanigans and item familiars can get around the skill requirement, Versatile Spellcaster+Heighten Spell lets you spontaneously cast 3rd lvl spells (in 2nd lvl slots), and there's a dragonblooded version of most every PHB race, as well as a feat available to sorcerers that can give you the subtype. About the only way for a person to be incapable of qualifying for this early is if dragons themselves do not exist in the world your character exists in; everything else can be cheesed around.

Oh, and that's another way to do it: Versatile Spellcaster+Heighten Spell works just fine, and is easy to get.

[Platymus Pus]

Firstly, quoting PF when we're discussing 3.5 makes it easier to dismiss you;


3.0/3.5/PF are all allowed.
No, not 3.5, All of it. PF just supersedes most of it regarding rules as it is supposed to if you decide to use 3.5 and 3.0 in it.


Secondly, this is exactly what Practiced Spellcaster does; it is perfectly RAW legal

Your caster level for the chosen spellcasting class increases by 4.

This feat does not affect your spells per day or spells known. It increases your caster level only, which would help you penetrate spell resistance and increase the duration and other effects of your spells.
No, I don't see how it is. Maybe you remembered it wrong and are thinking of something else.
I see no mention of raising spell level.


Thirdly, the text you're quoting is the a rule about Heighten Spell; as a metamagic feat, it serves as a more specific rule than the normal rules of spellcasting, but metamagic reduction/alteration/replacement options are even more specific than metamagic feats. Practiced Spellcaster and similar feats (such as Earth Spell) effectively alter how metamagic feats work.
Earth spell requires Heighten Spell spell to begin with along with Earth Sense.
Heighten

The heightened spell is as difficult to prepare and cast as a spell of its effective level.
Earth spell says

you can use the Heighten Spell feat to added effect.

if you cast a spell using a spell slot one level higher
I have to prepare a level 1 spell in a second level spell slot via Heightened spell casted on earth to get the equivalent of a 1st level spell in a 3rd level slot being cast.
Thankfully all the text requirement says, "ability to cast", but on the other hand it also says "3rd level spells" Meaning actual 3rd level spells, not supped up lower level spells into the power of a 3rd spell.

Which is my problem trying to find classes or some combination that blatantly just get 3rd level spells right off the bat.

[ben-zayb]

It would take up 3 feats at 1st level, and you need to be a human, but Heighten Spell + Talfirian Song + Extra Music enables you to cast 4th level spells if you have at least 14 CHA.

[ZamielVanWeber]

I see it now for Krau, but the wording says words such as "as if" and "with no change to spell slot".
You're just casting a level 2 spell "as if" it is in a 3rd spell slot not actually as one.

That seems overly semantic. What are you doing this for if every RAW method we offer seems to be shot down?

[Troacctid]

Heightening a spell makes it count as higher level for all purposes. It's not a fake 3rd level spell, it legitimately counts as 3rd level.

If you won't use a Heighten variant, then the next best way would be to take 5 levels of Wizard or a similar class, which will allow you to get 3rd level spell slots.

[Platymus Pus]

It seems that you're confusing spell slots with spell levels.


No, matter how much you heighten a spell it's still just that spell heightened, not the spell's actual level which is what all of the requirements ask for.
You look up the spells name and it'll be a level 2 or 1 spell and you don't have a 3rd level spell slot. That's when the Dm looks at you and says no.
I need something that is optimized and unarguable. That isn't it.


You asked for a way to cast a third level spell
Which no one has given me yet, at least by a 3rd level spells name.


to a way to gain a third level spell slot
Since this would allow an actual 3rd level spell, yes.



The latter is not actually required for the former, which is where your confusion lies.
Not exactly where it lies. Most of the people are thinking 3.5, I'm thinking of PF with 3.5 elements in it.


Most metamagic feats do not actually change the level of the spell despite taking higher level spell slots. Heighten spell explicitly makes a spell count as a higher level, which is where we're getting RAW legal things like heightening spells to be levels higher than the slots used to cast them (earth spell being a rock solid example of this).
If you're loose with the requirements it works. Earth spell is the best example I've seen, but I still don't actually have the ability to spell cast at 3rd level.
Just the ability to spell cast as 3rd level. But, if I'm suddenly flying I'd lose that casting ability along with 10 levels of a class because I would no longer meet the requirements.
If I no longer meet feat requirements I lose the benefits of that feat as an example. I would assume it's the same here unless shown otherwise.
If not you could just retrain into anything and ignore builds and not worry about losing permanent levels in pathfinder.



If you want actual higher level slots you're going to have to dig a little deeper, with things like extra slot
Extra Slot? Tell me more:smallsmile:


and a crapton of feats (flaws and/or dark chaos shuffle?)
13 feats limit atm, so go for it. I might be able to fit it in there.



Also for skill ranks remember the cap in 3.5 is your HD+3. You can get 8 ranks in spellcraft at level 5
Sorry, rules changed a bit in PF.

You can never have more ranks in a skill than your total number of Hit Dice.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


That seems overly semantic. What are you doing this for if every RAW method we offer seems to be shot down?
Because you're getting shot down as hard as I would if I tried it? RAI trumps RAW. It's not semantics if opposing side has a point.



It would take up 3 feats at 1st level, and you need to be a human, but Heighten Spell + Talfirian Song + Extra Music enables you to cast 4th level spells if you have at least 14 CHA. That sounds very interesting and would fit nicely with my cha build. I'll look into it. The cha will be breaking 20 level 1 at least so 14 isn't much an issue.

[MisterKaws]

Well, this one is quite cheesy, but seeing as you're quite desperate, I think you might like it:

Dragonwrought Kobolds are dragon-type, and for some reason, they have age categories that are the same as true dragons, thus being considered true dragons. True dragons can pick something called Sovereign Archetypes, one of which is the Loredrake archetype. Loredrake gives a +3 to the total Sorcerer levels of a dragon, in exchange for a reduction in HD from d12 to d10, which you don't even have.
Now, a third-level Kobold Sorcerer with Loredrake is considered a 6th level Sorcerer for spellcasting, and thus fits your prereqs.
While you're at it with this cheddar, just go ahead and start at venerable for an untyped +3 to all mentals, with no penalties due to being dragonwrought. Also don't forget to take Greater Draconic Rite (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20060420a) at your 6th level, which would give you an effective Sorcerer level of actual Sorcerer levels+4, and a DMG to the face.

Oh, and just a warning: Talfirian Song is the same as the previous ones, it just heightens spells.

[Troacctid]

Converting between Pathfinder and 3.5 normally involves moving skill prerequisites up or down 3 ranks (to a minimum of 1) to account for the different skill systems. In PF, you need 5 ranks rather than 8. This is similar to how a 3.5 class converted to PF doesn't get x4 skill points at 1st level.

[Necroticplague]

Human for extra feat. Use your feats to get a metamagic feat and Eldritch Corruption. Done.

[DarkSonic1337]

Use Sanctum Spell to make spells you cast count as 1 level higher in your Sanctum, making a 1st level spell count as 2nd level. Use Heighten Spell, Earth Sense, and Earth spell to be able to cast that spell as a third level spell. Take extra slot to gain 1 spell slot 1 level lower than the highest you can cast (so 1 2nd level slot). Extra slot can be taken mulltiple times and with this trick each time you take it you will get a slot 1 higher level than the last.

Pretty cheesy and frankly I'd never use it in a real game (unless I'm playing Chameleon and my DM said to make powerful characters :p), but hey it exists. You're not going to get a "RAI" method for doing this because RAI you shouldn't be casting spells above the level that your class normally gives them to you. That is why you are getting RAW responses (and the more solid ones too.) If your DM is not comfortable with early entry tricks then you're not going to find an answer here. Perhaps just ask your DM if he can change the prerequisites instead?


And if you're playing a pathfinder+3.5 game you have to convert any 3.5 material you port over. Skill requirements should be 3 lower in PF and 3.5 classes carried over won't get 4x skill points at level 1 (and you should look at skills that changed and adjust them accordingly, like changing the "balance" ranks skill effect in balancing lorecall to acrobatics ranks, ect.)

[ZamielVanWeber]

Because you're getting shot down as hard as I would if I tried it? RAI trumps RAW. It's not semantics if opposing side has a point.

If the point is generated by being overly semantic then you lack a point. RAI are house rules, so why not give us the house rules you are working under to start?

[AvatarVecna]

RAI trumps RAW. It's not semantics if opposing side has a point.

This right here is the problem.

You see the title of the thread? That thing you're trying to do, that you came to us for advice about? The game is literally designed to keep you from doing that thing. The game treats the idea of casting 3rd lvl spells before ECL 5 as impossible, and builds around that assumption; the fact that the designers weren't perfect, and that there are holes in the rules that let you break past such assumptions (sometimes holes big enough to drive a truck through), doesn't change the fact that bypassing those rules is treated as "cheating" and will almost always be turned down by reasonable DMs who care about game balance.

You want to convince your DM to let you do this, to let you cast high level spells before the entire game system says you're supposed to? You either need to convince him that the designer's intention should be ignored in favor of the letter of the RAW, or you need to convince him that the designer's intentions should be ignored in favor of giving spellcasters an advantage they so desperately need in order to keep up. Personally, I find the former the easier argument, but to each their own.

[Andezzar]

Use Sanctum Spell to make spells you cast count as 1 level higher in your Sanctum, making a 1st level spell count as 2nd level. Use Heighten Spell, Earth Sense, and Earth spell to be able to cast that spell as a third level spell. Take extra slot to gain 1 spell slot 1 level lower than the highest you can cast (so 1 2nd level slot). Extra slot can be taken mulltiple times and with this trick each time you take it you will get a slot 1 higher level than the last.That only works if you gain the XP necessary to advance a level in your sanctum. You have to fulfil the prerequisites when you level up. You level up immediately after gaining the necessary points (unless you immediately use those points to craft an item). So good luck with that.

[Grod_The_Giant]

If you're of a class that automatically knows the spells of the levels it can cast, use Versatile Spellcaster to sacrifice a bunch of cantrips and 1st level spells to create 2nd level slots, and combine those into third level slots. Now you can cast 3rd level spells. Though you may want to wait until you have at least two 2nd levels spells naturally so you don't have to convince your DM that you can combine the phantom 2nd level spell slots created from the 0 and 1st level slots into 3rds.
This is probably as close as you'll get. If you just want a small dip, as opposed to a low ECL, something fast-advance-y like Ur-Priest might work better (and unambiguously). You could also put a race with spellcasting ability on one side of the gestalt. But...

That thing you're trying to do, that you came to us for advice about? The game is literally designed to keep you from doing that thing.
This. You're looking for a non-cheesy way to break the system, and that just isn't going to happen.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

What's the full build you're going for, and why do you want heartwarder so early? Maybe there's an easier way to get what you want earlier without shenanigans, or maybe there's a similar ability elsewhere. Or we could just find some effective filler to give you useful and interesting abilities in the levels prior to level 5 (or 6).

[Necroticplague]

This is probably as close as you'll get. If you just want a small dip, as opposed to a low ECL, something fast-advance-y like Ur-Priest might work better (and unambiguously). You could also put a race with spellcasting ability on one side of the gestalt. But...

I don't know about other fast-advancement classes, but ur priest itself wouldn't help here, given that it's impossible to enter ur-priest itself before level 4*, and you'd need 3 levels to get the spells.

*=Barring egregious cheese, like lycanthropy->qualify->take a few levels in ur-priest->get cured of lycanthropy. Which, given how the poster isn't willing to except that a Heightened spell is actually of the level that it is, is definitely not going to fly.

[Grod_The_Giant]

I don't know about other fast-advancement classes, but ur priest itself wouldn't help here, given that it's impossible to enter ur-priest itself before level 4*, and you'd need 3 levels to get the spells.
I mean, yes, which was why I specified a small dip as opposed to a low ECL-- ie, a small level adjustment, but not an early one.

[AvatarVecna]

Just real quick, I don't think Versatile Spellcaster lets you sacrifice 4 spells of level X to cast a spell of level X+2, at least not by a strict reading of RAW:
You can use two spell slots of the same level to cast a spell you know that is one level higher. For example, a sorcerer with this feat can expend two 2nd-level spell slots to cast any 3rd-level spell he knows.It says you can cast a spell of level X by expending two slots of level X-1; it doesn't say you can turn two slots of level X to create a slot of level X+1 to be used however you pleased; this is taking place when you're casting the level X spell, and you must either have a level X slot or two level X-1 slots to cast it. If it said "you can use two spells slots of the same level to use a spell slot one level higher", than it would be fine, but the feat specifies actually casting the lvl X spell as being the only way you can substitute lower level slots in.

Mind you, that still means that a Beguiler 3 with Versatile spellcaster can cast their 3rd lvl spells, but that's a similar cheese level to the Heighten Spell stuff (very low cheese level, but still), so it's unlikely to meet the OP's standards.

[Ger. Bessa]

Heartwarder has a bunch of prerequisite feats in addition to lv3 spells. So you have 2 options :

1) Play an elf and DCFS to get all those prerequisite feats and heighten spell, earth sense, earth spell, spell focus and metamagic spell focus (or illuminian power sigil krau or precocious apprentice or DMM:heighten or eldritch corruption) and cheese your way with skills through lycanthropy + psionics to get skills at 8 ranks.

2) Suck it up with martial feats wizard and you'll barely have enough at lv5 for the crappy prerequisite feats. By luck you'll have lv3 spells and 8 rank skills at that level. If you need more feats or want to take some other acf (spontaneous divination) or class (sorcerer), turn to flaws and/or racial bonus feats.

Edit : It's Gestalt, so it may be possible to get enough feats with double class+flaws+race+taint (Eldritch corruption as a bonus feat is available to Loyal neutral characters through moderate taint, so you only need heighten spell + all those prerequisites). The skill ranks is still the hardest limit on early access then.

[Troacctid]

Mind you, that still means that a Beguiler 3 with Versatile spellcaster can cast their 3rd lvl spells, but that's a similar cheese level to the Heighten Spell stuff (very low cheese level, but still), so it's unlikely to meet the OP's standards.

Actually, if you read their spellcasting ability more carefully, they only learn spells once they reach a high enough level to cast them.


When you gain access to a new level of spells, you automatically know all the spells for that level on the beguiler's spell list.

You wouldn't know any spells of the higher level yet, so you'd still need Heighten Spell for the trick to work.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Actually, if you read their spellcasting ability more carefully, they only learn spells once they reach a high enough level to cast them.

You wouldn't know any spells of the higher level yet, so you'd still need Heighten Spell for the trick to work.But you are high enough level to cast them. That's what Versatile Spellcaster does, allow you to cast higher level spells.

[AvatarVecna]

Actually, if you read their spellcasting ability more carefully, they only learn spells once they reach a high enough level to cast them.



You wouldn't know any spells of the higher level yet, so you'd still need Heighten Spell for the trick to work.

It says "When you gain access to a new level of spells", it says nothing about how you gained access. Sure, a Sorcerer would have to wait, because they have to pick spells known based on what spells they have actual slots for, but Beguilers have no such limitation.

EDIT: Ninja'd.

[Troacctid]

But you don't have access to them, because Versatile Spellcaster doesn't let you cast them unless you already know them, and you don't know them unless you have access to them. Which means the only way to gain access to them via Versatile Spellcaster is if you already have access to them some other way.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

But you don't have access to them, because Versatile Spellcaster doesn't let you cast them unless you already know them, and you don't know them unless you have access to them. Which means the only way to gain access to them via Versatile Spellcaster is if you already have access to them some other way.Versatile Spellcaster allows you to cast 3rd level spells, so beguiler (or whatever) gives those spells to you as your spells known. It's right there in the class's text. Since you can cast 3rd level spells, you know all of the beguiler's 3rd level spells, allowing you to cast them.

[AvatarVecna]

Versatile Spellcaster allows you to cast 3rd level spells, so beguiler (or whatever) gives those spells to you as your spells known. It's right there in the class's text. Since you can cast 3rd level spells, you know all of the beguiler's 3rd level spells, allowing you to cast them.

No, I see what he's saying: to learn your 3rd lvl spells, you need to be able to cast 3rd lvl spells; to cast 3rd lvl spells, you have to know something that can be cast in a 3rd lvl slot. In this case, you also need Heighten Spell, which lets you cast a 2nd lvl spell as a 3rd lvl spell, which gives you access to 3rd lvl slots, which gives you knowledge of the Beguiler's 3rd lvl spells.

...maybe. This whole trick is kinda weird.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

No, I see what he's saying: to learn your 3rd lvl spells, you need to be able to cast 3rd lvl spells; to cast 3rd lvl spells, you have to know something that can be cast in a 3rd lvl slot. In this case, you also need Heighten Spell, which lets you cast a 2nd lvl spell as a 3rd lvl spell, which gives you access to 3rd lvl slots, which gives you knowledge of the Beguiler's 3rd lvl spells.

...maybe. This whole trick is kinda weird.You can cast 3rd level spells anyway; you just need 3rd level spells to cast. If you're a 5th level wizard/5th level heartwarder whose spell book was stolen, or who cast all of his higher level spells for the day, do you lose access to your PrC just because you don't happen to have any 3rd level spells available at the moment? Do you lose the ability to re-prepare your higher level spells forever just because you no longer have those 3rd level spells filled? No, of course not. You still have the ability to cast them; you just don't have them on you at the moment. Same deal here.

[Platymus Pus]

Converting between Pathfinder and 3.5 normally involves moving skill prerequisites up or down 3 ranks (to a minimum of 1) to account for the different skill systems. In PF, you need 5 ranks rather than 8.
That actually helps me get it earlier and lightens the requirements for everything else.
I've been building on the assumption that is what I have to do for heartwarder, but the idea changed considering what I can do at 20th level and it's symbolic nature.
I managed it barely without the skill points as they are there.

This right here is the problem.

You see the title of the thread? That thing you're trying to do, that you came to us for advice about? The game is literally designed to keep you from doing that thing. The game treats the idea of casting 3rd lvl spells before ECL 5 as impossible.
It does.
It's an old experienced DM, I can't really pull anything so obvious as those tricks.



This. You're looking for a non-cheesy way to break the system, and that just isn't going to happen.
True, but I can do certain things through hard work.

What I came up with.
Warblade 2 /Paladin of Freedom 2/Cleric 3/ Arcane Duelist 2/ Mystic Wanderer 1/ Heartwarder 10/ //Dread Necromancer 20
Warblade for uncanny dodge so it's hard to lose my AC bonus and some nice stances to do touch attacks that drain 10 levels.
Use it to help qualify for arcane Duelist, originally used fighter 2 for 2 feats, realized I didn't need it.
Paladin of freedom for cha to saves.
Cleric for level 2 divine spells.
Waiting as long as possible for heavy class requirements.

Arcane duelist prestige class for cha to AC
Mystic Wanderer adds sacred cha bonus to AC and requires level 2 divine spellcasting
I meet spellcasting for heartwarder due to Dread Necromancer easily at this point(I originally wanted to reach heartwarder first when I made the thread)
Heartwarder gives me some nice Fluff to work with and is the opposite to the duality to a dread necromancer. Boosts cha by +5 without a book
Turns me into a fey 20th level. Boosts all of the related classes including dread necromancer.

Dread necromancer gives me arcane spellcasting cha based,DR 8, cha based negative energy bursts, cha based fear aura,control over undead based on cha, 50% natural crit resist, Craft Wondrous Item because why not, turns me into a lich 20th level.
Spellcasting of a 14th level cleric and 20th level spellcasting of dread necromancer.
Yes, there is a few homebrew rules going on. They weren't important to the question I asked however because I'm only able to get 20 levels of one class on the right.

What's the full build you're going for, and why do you want heartwarder so early? Maybe there's an easier way to get what you want earlier without shenanigans, or maybe there's a similar ability elsewhere. Or we could just find some effective filler to give you useful and interesting abilities in the levels prior to level 5 (or 6).
I ended up with a lich fey.
Anyhow it's all cha based, even the cleric thanks to key feats.
Of course I could use something better than a cleric here for cha related level 2 divine spell casting at level 3 and having to be CG, but a feat fixes all of that.



You wouldn't know any spells of the higher level yet, so you'd still need Heighten Spell for the trick to work.
Yep, under a strict ruling it falls apart. DM can just rule it as a 1st or 2nd level spell that has the power of a 3rd level spell.
But not an actual 3rd level spell so you won't break the rules over your knee.

[Troacctid]

Yep, under a strict ruling it falls apart. DM can just rule it as a 1st or 2nd level spell that has the power of a 3rd level spell.
But not an actual 3rd level spell so you won't break the rules over your knee.

That's how normal metamagic feats work, but not Heighten Spell.


Unlike other metamagic feats, Heighten Spell actually increases the effective level of the spell that it modifies. All effects dependent on spell level (such as saving throw DCs and ability to penetrate a lesser globe of invulnerability) are calculated according to the heightened level.

All effects dependent on spell level are affected.

If your DM claims that the spell has to "naturally" be 3rd level, regardless of what level it actually is for you specifically, then your Cleric can qualify with Cure Moderate Wounds, which is a 3rd level spell for Druids, but a 2nd level spell for you.

[Grod_The_Giant]

It's an old experienced DM, I can't really pull anything so obvious as those tricks.
"Tricks" might be your problem. Don't try to pull off over on the DM- even if he misses your trick at first, he'll see it once you use it and you'll have the argument then, plus a heaping serving of potential bad feelings. Instead, talk to him during character creation: "I want to do this, using this combo, because I feel that it fits the group's power level in these ways. Thoughts?" Then you work together to make sure that your vision of appropriate power matches his and everyone is happy.

[Platymus Pus]

"Tricks" might be your problem. Don't try to pull off over on the DM- even if he misses your trick at first, he'll see it once you use it and you'll have the argument then, plus a heaping serving of potential bad feelings. Instead, talk to him during character creation: "I want to do this, using this combo, because I feel that it fits the group's power level in these ways. Thoughts?" Then you work together to make sure that your vision of appropriate power matches his and everyone is happy.

He didn't approve of the tricks given. So I went the more hard route by figuring out everything via classes so it's fine.
That sort of build is thankfully acceptable.


If your DM claims that the spell has to "naturally" be 3rd level, regardless of what level it actually is for you specifically, then your Cleric can qualify with Cure Moderate Wounds, which is a 3rd level spell for Druids, but a 2nd level spell for you.
You do know Ranger qualifies for higher level spells than either Druid or Cleric first if we go by that logic right?
It goes by the class naturally.

[MisterKaws]

If your DM is so experienced, I doubt he would let you qualify for Heartwarder with class qualities from the other side of the gestalt, it's cheesy and unbalanced.

[Troacctid]

You do know Ranger qualifies for higher level spells than either Druid or Cleric first if we go by that logic right?
It goes by the class naturally.

Take the Air domain. You can now cast a 3rd level Cleric spell, Wind Wall, as a 2nd level spell.

[Platymus Pus]

If your DM is so experienced, I doubt he would let you qualify for Heartwarder with class qualities from the other side of the gestalt, it's cheesy and unbalanced.


Yes, there is a few homebrew rules going on.

I'm only able to get 20 levels of one class on the right.
It's some alternate gestalt rules like I said, nothing you've ever seen in your lifetime.
Won't allow the tricks mentioned because they break the game far more if allowed in that.

[MisterKaws]

It's some alternate gestalt rules like I said, nothing you've ever seen in your lifetime.
Won't allow the tricks mentioned because they break the game far more if allowed in that.

So a dragonwrought sorcerer breaks the rules more than someone doing CoDzilla with only 2 levels of cleric?

[AvatarVecna]

So a dragonwrought sorcerer breaks the rules more than someone doing CoDzilla with only 2 levels of cleric?

Oh come on, that's hardly a fair assessment. If I didn't know better, I'd say you were implying that these comparisons of relative cheesiness were based on standards that are at best randomly arbitrary and at worst being applied in a biased manner.

[Platymus Pus]

So a dragonwrought sorcerer breaks the rules more than someone doing CoDzilla with only 2 levels of cleric?
CoDzilla is doable with any amount of levels of cleric or druid as long as you can get all of their spells. Straight cleric or druid 20 is pretty much Codzilla.
Much less Cleric 20 // Druid 20 which are base classes I could have done instead and been far more effective in spell selection.
Bringing up something that has nothing to do with the discussion. Is that all you're here for?

[Andezzar]

You can cast 3rd level spells anyway; you just need 3rd level spells to cast. If you're a 5th level wizard/5th level heartwarder whose spell book was stolen, or who cast all of his higher level spells for the day, do you lose access to your PrC just because you don't happen to have any 3rd level spells available at the moment? Do you lose the ability to re-prepare your higher level spells forever just because you no longer have those 3rd level spells filled? No, of course not. You still have the ability to cast them; you just don't have them on you at the moment. Same deal here.Heartwarder is safe, but all PrCs from CW behave exactly that way, because of the stupid tacked on rule of that book. It is even worse, because the book gives no mechanism to get the class features back.
The spellcasting of PrCs from CArc are also safe because spellcasting is not a special (i.e. extraordinary, supernatural or spell-like) ability.

[ATHATH]

I don't know if this has been mentioned, but the feat Mad Faith gives you a third level spell slot.