DM with half-decent system mastery trying to help a player out with a new character

[rrwoods]

So I'm going to be starting an in-person campaign* in a few weeks, and one of my completely-new-to-D&D players got to talking with me about possible character concepts for him to play.

He wants very strongly to play an "agility-based character". I'm going to dig a little deeper with him on what exactly that means, but I'd like to poke the forum here and get some character ideas associated with likely definitions of "agility-based".

My first inkling is Swordsage (mostly because I love me some Tome of Battle), to play a DEX-based striker focused on mobility and damage-per-strike. But,
(a) what else might he mean by "agility-based" -- he plays many JRPGs, which are not a type of game I'm familiar with, and maybe that's influencing "ability-based" in a way I don't understand
(b) what other types of characters might be appropriate?

I've suggested Swordsage to him already but we haven't done anything related to actual character-creation yet. I also suggested Rogue but he's (possibly correctly) not very sold on it. Any help here would be appreciated -- the main thing I want is to make sure my players have fun with their characters, and presenting all the actually-viable options is step 1.



* House rules are minimal/typical (no multiclass XP penalty, Leadership is banned, etc); I subscribe to the gospel of anything-goes; starting at L1; target op-level is T3 (the other three of five total players that have expressed character concepts to me are a for-sure Factotum urchin-type character, possibly going deep on Luck feats but I'm mildly discouraging those, a for-sure typical Crusader, and a likely Dragonborn Lesser Aasimar DFI Bard). If I'm underspecifying enough here that advice isn't possible, lemme know.

[Troacctid]

Swordsage is a fine choice. The class is probably the #1 best at dodging and tumbling and jumping and all the other things he would expect from an agile character, with the exception of archery, which Swordsages don't really do. I think your initial instinct is good. Shadow Sun Ninja and Bloodclaw Master should be presented as options as well.

The other choice is Scout (with Swift Hunter and Swift Ambusher being essentially subclasses). If he's interested in archery, Swift Hunter would be a strong choice. Scouts do a lot of dashing around the battlefield and are a fairly mobile class in general.

There is also Monk, which has the flavor but not the mechanics, and Ninja, which is like a worse version of Swordsage.

[MisterKaws]

Swordsage is a fine choice. The class is probably the #1 best at dodging and tumbling and jumping and all the other things he would expect from an agile character, with the exception of archery, which Swordsages don't really do. I think your initial instinct is good. Shadow Sun Ninja and Bloodclaw Master should be presented as options as well.

The other choice is Scout (with Swift Hunter and Swift Ambusher being essentially subclasses). If he's interested in archery, Swift Hunter would be a strong choice. Scouts do a lot of dashing around the battlefield and are a fairly mobile class in general.

There is also Monk, which has the flavor but not the mechanics, and Ninja, which is like a worse version of Swordsage.

Actually, all martial adepts make great archers (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=10296220), though indeed, Swordsages suffer because of the low BAB, and it's just pretty hard to be as effective as an Eternal Blade archer.

[rrwoods]

I had forgotten (it's been a while since I had this conversation with him) -- he explicitly said he doesn't want to be an archer.

From that it sounds like Swordsage is probably the best choice -- it's fine out to 20, and Monk/Ninja are not anything I'm going to suggest to anyone as "main" classes.

[Xervous]

Owing to the interchangeability of Dexterity <-> Agility in many games I'd wager a bet he's referring to that manner of character. The nimble swordsman who gets by more on precision and skill than sheer brawn.

I'll echo swordsage because easy access to Shadow Blade means you won't have to scrounge around as much for reliable damage boosts to get dex melee viable. A level of hit and run fighter would likely be beneficial if the player finds a consistent means of rendering opponents flatfooted, double dex to damage puts him in a good spot for combat. Perhaps mix in a level of lion totem barbarian for pounce, or a level of cleric to easily nab travel devotion and the TU to fuel it.

I will note here that dex based melee characters usually have a bumpy start given how rogue, swordsage, and similar classes do not have full BAB thus cutting them off from weapon finesse until level 3 in most cases.

[Troacctid]

I will note here that dex based melee characters usually have a bumpy start given how rogue, swordsage, and similar classes do not have full BAB thus cutting them off from weapon finesse until level 3 in most cases.

The secret is to screw Weapon Finesse and just use Strength as your primary stat, with Dex and Wis being secondary. Then you save yourself a feat and you deal a ton of extra damage. (An 18 in Strength represents +6 damage on every hit. That's like an extra 2d6 sneak attack damage, except you don't need to jump through hoops and nothing is immune to it.)

[Grod_The_Giant]

The secret is to screw Weapon Finesse and just use Strength as your primary stat, with Dex and Wis being secondary. Then you save yourself a feat and you deal a ton of extra damage. (An 18 in Strength represents +6 damage on every hit. That's like an extra 2d6 sneak attack damage, except you don't need to jump through hoops and nothing is immune to it.)
So the trick to playing a Dex based character is... not to play a Dex based character? :smallconfused:

At low levels you can go more with throwing weapons or bows-- something that gets Dex to attack by default, when you're early enough that you don't need much (if any) investment to be useful.

[Troacctid]

So the trick to playing a Dex based character is... not to play a Dex based character? :smallconfused:

Ssshhhh, it's a secret. :smalltongue:

You don't need to max out your Strength, but you do want it to be reasonably high, since it's going to be added to your damage regardless, and presumably at x1.5 too. Usually I try to point-buy to a 16 in both Strength and Dex and hit 18 either through racial bonuses or an enhancement item. Then your level-up bonuses can go wherever. Either that, or pick a race or template that just gives a big stat boost--last Swordsage I played was a Marrulurk, so I could put 14s in Dex and Wis and still have 20s after racials.

[KillianHawkeye]

I will note here that dex based melee characters usually have a bumpy start given how rogue, swordsage, and similar classes do not have full BAB thus cutting them off from weapon finesse until level 3 in most cases.

Swashbuckler says "hello!" :smallwink:

[frost890]

So the trick to playing a Dex based character is... not to play a Dex based character? :smallconfused:


I think you are focusing to much on the Dex stat when he says agility-based. Since you used Swordsage I will go off 3.5. Jump goes off of Str. So if he is trying trying to go with a musketeer type that jumps around he needs to have a decent Str/jump. For a new player a ranger that focuses on attacking a lot as with TWF may be what he is thinking when he says agility-based.

[Warrnan]

As far as rogues go here is my standard non-initiator Dex guy: rogue1/ swashbuckler1/ hit and run fighter1 (dotu)/ lion totem barbarian1/ rogue3/ swashbuckler 13/ nightsong enforcer1/ spellthief1

Able learner, craven, weapon finesse, darkstalker, 2 weapon fighting, staggering strike, improved initiative, shadow blade, etc for feats.

Put weapon chambers into each weapon (100g from dungeonscape). Grab some swift action wands and Max your UMD. I like swift invisibility, close wounds, and wraithstrike. This way you can always set up sneak attacks, or hit very armored opponents. Grab some acid weapon crystals and put on both weapons. (3000g from mic). Also a scouts headband from mic is crucial to get sneak attacks off against certain foes.

A shadow hand glove for the required maneuvers to grab the shadow blade feat is a must. Unless you want to dip sword sage. This build was for my TOB hating friend. I usually take island of blades to flank from anywhere and cloak of shadows to have an immediate invis. "Vanish".

This guy has 19 base attack and 10d6 sneak attack less skills and more hp than rogue 20. However, the skills were enough to keep traps, locks, UMD and stealth taken care of, all a rogue needs.

[Manyasone]

As far as rogues go here is my standard non-initiator Dex guy: rogue1/ swashbuckler1/ hit and run fighter1 (dotu)/ lion totem barbarian1/ rogue3/ swashbuckler 13/ nightsong enforcer1/ spellthief1
Damn, I'm a DM myself and I would never allow this hodgepodge of classes. 8 classes bigods ...

[rrwoods]

Damn, I'm a DM myself and I would never allow this hodgepodge of classes. 8 classes bigods ...
... As a DM myself, I would *suggest* this "hodgepodge" of classes to a player, if it helped execute their concept effectively.

This is somewhat off-topic, because this thread is about finding a way to execute on a specific concept that this player wants. But it also is informative to that topic because the DM (me) is the one helping him find a way to execute on that concept, and therefore the DM's philosophy is important since it informs that advice.

As I said in the first post, I subscribe to the gospel of everything-goes. Classes do not represent specialization in a thing any more than their *mechanics* (NOT their names!) say they do. If character concept is best executed by 8 classes, then I would be doing a disservice to my players if I told them "no, sorry, you can't do that -- there's too many class names in your build, try again". Instead, if that combination of classes best represents what the character wants to do mechanically, I will not only *let* them have it, but if they are new I will *suggest* it!

So, to that end: Thank you Warrnan for presenting me that build. It's one I will be offering to the player as an option.

EDIT: Oh, question for Warrnan though: How is this build getting 10d6 sneak attack?

[Xervous]

Damn, I'm a DM myself and I would never allow this hodgepodge of classes. 8 classes bigods ...

And what might be voiced about Cleric 20, Druid 20, or Wizard 20? What reason do you have for disallowing lots of different classes?


As is the case with most things mundane each class doesn't have too many amazing things going for it. Instead of delving in for many levels on one class for a mixture of useful and laughable features you're going around cherry picking the things you need to produce your desired character. Wizards and sorcerers aren't locked into a set progression of spells, they can grab what they want for their purposes. Class dipping is vaguely similar to this for mundanes and non full casters.

[Manyasone]

And what might be voiced about Cleric 20, Druid 20, or Wizard 20? What reason do you have for disallowing lots of different classes?


As is the case with most things mundane each class doesn't have too many amazing things going for it. Instead of delving in for many levels on one class for a mixture of useful and laughable features you're going around cherry picking the things you need to produce your desired character. Wizards and sorcerers aren't locked into a set progression of spells, they can grab what they want for their purposes. Class dipping is vaguely similar to this for mundanes and non full casters.
It isn't about disallowing, it is about being ridiculous about it. I've seen builds like this fail at low levels, simply because they weren't good at anything, with as argument 'yes, but a THAT level, I rule, I just wasn' t there yet'

[Grod_The_Giant]

It isn't about disallowing, it is about being ridiculous about it. I've seen builds like this fail at low levels, simply because they weren't good at anything, with as argument 'yes, but a THAT level, I rule, I just wasn' t there yet'
Eh, that one looks solid throughout. You start with Sneak Attack to make up for low Strength, get Weapon Finesse at 2, Dex to damage at 3, then pounce, then I presume into Daring Outlaw.

[Xervous]

Eh, that one looks solid throughout. You start with Sneak Attack to make up for low Strength, get Weapon Finesse at 2, Dex to damage at 3, then pounce, then I presume into Daring Outlaw.

I feel that Manyasone is speaking in a more general sense, from experience no doubt. When everyone was easing into their first few games of DnD 3.5 and they didn't have an optimizer's bible nor a well studied friend guiding their character creation these sorts hodge podge smatterings of classes proved to be generally a bad idea. If I look at a build from a newer player and see more than a handful of classes in the mix experience has shown me it is most likely going to be a flop of a build.

[Manyasone]

Eh, that one looks solid throughout. You start with Sneak Attack to make up for low Strength, get Weapon Finesse at 2, Dex to damage at 3, then pounce, then I presume into Daring Outlaw.

That may be, but not all of them are like that. I always tell my players that they have to contribute from the start, or they will never get to the level their 'build' comes 'online'. Since I am planning to start Way of the Wicked in the near future this is even more important

[rrwoods]

Different thread please. As I've stated, my philosophy is everything-goes, and that's as far as it matters relative to this thread.

Since it's now buried behind other stuff: How does the build in question get 10d6 SA? I'm not seeing it for whatever reason.

[Bonzai]

Yeah, I would say tough it out a couple levels till you get shadow blade and weapon finess for dex to hit and damage. I've played the concept before and it's worked out well for me.

Last time was as a swordsage/rogue/ shadow caster/ teflamar shadow lord twf shadow pounce build. Even before the combo kicked in, it was dealing respectable damage, and it started to ramp up very quickly.

[Xervous]

Different thread please. As I've stated, my philosophy is everything-goes, and that's as far as it matters relative to this thread.

Since it's now buried behind other stuff: How does the build in question get 10d6 SA? I'm not seeing it for whatever reason.


rogue1/ swashbuckler1/ hit and run fighter1 (dotu)/ lion totem barbarian1/ rogue3/ swashbuckler 13/ nightsong enforcer1/ spellthief1

Assuming the Daring Outlaw feat, rogue 3 + swash 13 = 8d6 sneak attack, nightsong enforcer +1d6, spellthief +1d6

[Nifft]

It isn't about disallowing, it is about being ridiculous about it. I've seen builds like this fail at low levels, simply because they weren't good at anything, with as argument 'yes, but a THAT level, I rule, I just wasn' t there yet'

Exactly like how Wizards 1 sucks, but Wizard 20 totally rules, right?

[Warrnan]

... As a DM myself, I would *suggest* this "hodgepodge" of classes to a player, if it helped execute their concept effectively...
...So, to that end: Thank you Warrnan for presenting me that build. It's one I will be offering to the player as an option.

EDIT: Oh, question for Warrnan though: How is this build getting 10d6 sneak attack?

Yes forgive me. I left out the central feat to the whole build, Daring Outlaw.

I for one feel that melee classes get screwed over pretty hard. This sort of munchkinism maybe brings rogue up to similar level to a swordsage.

The barbarian was only to grab pounce. Trust me I prefer flavor and elegance but this was the only way to approximate one of my favorite archetypes. I've played it up to about level 8 and it is underpowered compared to a simple charging build but puts out respectable damage. However winning Initaitive was easy for a dex rogue with improved initiative and init boosting gear. Often times I would pounce an enemy and delete them with a blur of shortsword slashes. Good times.


It isn't about disallowing, it is about being ridiculous about it. I've seen builds like this fail at low levels, simply because they weren't good at anything, with as argument 'yes, but a THAT level, I rule, I just wasn' t there yet'

This build was played in a game. I put out damage slightly less than the charger barbarian but had tons of utility through use magic device and other rogue type stuff. I took things in the order I did because I wanted "practical optimization". I optimized each level up to be what the rogue needed.

Waiting for a build to "come online" is my pet peeve. This build was decent from level one and I researched it extensively for weeks.


Assuming the Daring Outlaw feat, rogue 3 + swash 13 = 8d6 sneak attack, nightsong enforcer +1d6, spellthief +1d6

Precisely! Good maths, haha

I believe in mechanics over class names. This hodgepodge is a better ninja than the ninja and a better duelist than duelist.

[Manyasone]

Exactly like how Wizards 1 sucks, but Wizard 20 totally rules, right?
Wrong. Grow up.
This discussion has nothing to do with casters

[rrwoods]

Wrong. Grow up.
This discussion has nothing to do with casters

Right, I'm starting a new thread for this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?473957-On-quot-hodgepodges-quot-of-classes&p=20258358#post20258358). Please take it there.