Crafting question

[huginn]

Hello
I was reading the crafting rules and for weapons it seems wrong

To make say a long bow it can take weeks even with 15-20 ranks it may take a couple of weeks if you roll low enough and doesn't a weapon with a high DC can be produced faster then one with a low DC, isn't that backwards

[Jeraa]

Hello
I was reading the crafting rules and for weapons it seems wrong

To make say a long bow it can take weeks even with 15-20 ranks it may take a couple of weeks if you roll low enough and doesn't a weapon with a high DC can be produced faster then one with a low DC, isn't that backwards

Mundane crafting is messed up. Always has been. If you think a longbow is bad, do the math for full plate. Or even worse, adamantine full plate.

And you shouldn't be rolling low. As you aren't in battle or distracted, you can Take 10.

[huginn]

And you shouldn't be rolling low. As you aren't in battle or distracted, you can Take 10.

I was looking at how long it to take make items without using take 10 option
When you use the take 10 the 10 gets added to the DC not what you roll correct? So if I tried making something with a DC of 12 the take 10 will now make the DC 22 correct?
If I have 5 ranks and use artisan tools I would then add 7 and my bonus from INT to my roll and have to get 22 or better to make any progress correct? I make it faster but have a greater chance of failure unless I have enough ranks

[Yuki Akuma]

I was looking at how long it to take make items without using take 10 option
When you use the take 10 the 10 gets added to the DC not what you roll correct? So if I tried making something with a DC of 12 the take 10 will now make the DC 22 correct?

...What? No. Why would you even think that?

When you take 10, you pretend that you rolled the die and got a 10.

[Necroticplague]

I was looking at how long it to take make items without using take 10 option
When you use the take 10 the 10 gets added to the DC not what you roll correct? So if I tried making something with a DC of 12 the take 10 will now make the DC 22 correct?
If I have 5 ranks and use artisan tools I would then add 7 and my bonus from INT to my roll and have to get 22 or better to make any progress correct? I make it faster but have a greater chance of failure unless I have enough ranks

????? You seem to have completely misunderstood what "taking 10" is. When you take 10, you don't roll any dice, Your simply calculate results as if you had rolled a 10. So instead of rolling 1d20+7+INT, you would have a check result equal to 17+INT.

[huginn]

????? You seem to have completely misunderstood what "taking 10" is. When you take 10, you don't roll any dice, Your simply calculate results as if you had rolled a 10. So instead of rolling 1d20+7+INT, you would have a check result equal to 17+INT.

from the craft skill description towards the end
"You may voluntarily add +10 to the indicated DC to craft an item." and it goes on to say I multiply my check craft result with this higher DC

[DrMotives]

from the craft skill description towards the end
"You may voluntarily add +10 to the indicated DC to craft an item." and it goes on to say I multiply my check craft result with this higher DC

That's not taking 10 at all. Taking 10 is something you can do on almost every skill check when the situation allows for it. It's just doing something carefully enough not to screw up with a roll of 1 or so.

The adding +10 to the DC for crafting is because making a higher DC check allows you to craft things faster. It's a crafting specific option where a highly skilled crafter can make things faster.

[huginn]

That's not taking 10 at all. Taking 10 is something you can do on almost every skill check when the situation allows for it. It's just doing something carefully enough not to screw up with a roll of 1 or so.

The adding +10 to the DC for crafting is because making a higher DC check allows you to craft things faster. It's a crafting specific option where a highly skilled crafter can make things faster.

When the first person that replied mentioned taking 10 I misread what he wrote and thought he meant the part in craft skill description that talks about adding 10 not the take 10 and take 20 that is mentioned in the beginning of the skills section

[MisterKaws]

You guys seem to forget that the average high-level Commoner in a metropolis is a level 22 epic Commoner...

Yup, blacksmiths are seriously op.

[Elxir_Breauer]

Another thing to consider in regards to the time requirement is the fact that NONE of the modern methods and equipment are available to speed things along. Given the average time requirement for a Masterwork suit of Full-Plate is around a year or so in the rules, this actually matches pretty well with historical averages (can't remember who it was, but one of the people here on the forum did the math and research to compare). As for a Longbow, you have to find the right stock, treat the wood properly, shape it properly, stress test it til you're satisfied it's not going to break the first time some hulker draws it fully, treat the catgut or whatever you're using for string... All in all, it takes a CONSIDERABLE amount of time to make items that will stand the tests of combat and time. The formula is actually pretty close to accurate for lower level crafters dedicated to their craft.

[jk7275]

Another thing to consider in regards to the time requirement is the fact that NONE of the modern methods and equipment are available to speed things along. Given the average time requirement for a Masterwork suit of Full-Plate is around a year or so in the rules, this actually matches pretty well with historical averages (can't remember who it was, but one of the people here on the forum did the math and research to compare). As for a Longbow, you have to find the right stock, treat the wood properly, shape it properly, stress test it til you're satisfied it's not going to break the first time some hulker draws it fully, treat the catgut or whatever you're using for string... All in all, it takes a CONSIDERABLE amount of time to make items that will stand the tests of combat and time. The formula is actually pretty close to accurate for lower level crafters dedicated to their craft.

I can understand that it would take longer in the 14 century to produce bows or swords then it would today but on the other hand this is a fantasy world where you have magic and IMO dwarfs and other races would have methods better then what some crafter would have in the 14 century. Does anyone deel that it is worth the skill points and downtime it take to make a weapon

[Troacctid]

I can understand that it would take longer in the 14 century to produce bows or swords then it would today but on the other hand this is a fantasy world where you have magic and IMO dwarfs and other races would have methods better then what some crafter would have in the 14 century. Does anyone deel that it is worth the skill points and downtime it take to make a weapon

Dwarves do have technology to speed it up. They have magic forges that provide a +20 bonus to crafting checks, according to Races of Stone.

[Âmesang]

There's also fabricate… :smalltongue:

At any rate, I immediately house-ruled "quick creation" so that instead of being multiples of +10 it's multiples of +1. So, for example, if you have Craft (bowmaking) +5, which allows you to craft a (+0 Str) composite bow by taking 10 (DC 15), you could also craft a regular bow by boosting the DC by +3 (DC 12 to DC 15).

So, 15² = 225 sp worth of weapon, allowing a bow to be crafted in 3.33… weeks, and a composite bow to be crafted in 4.44… weeks.

(Although, with the default rules, 12×15 = 180 sp so the regular bow could be crafted in 4.16… weeks — still a little faster than a composite bow.)

EDIT: In my head I'm imagining a 2nd-level elf expert with 5 ranks in Craft (bowmaking), 15 Int (+2), Skill Focus (+3), masterwork tools (+2), and aid another from an assistant (+2), for a +14 Craft (bowmaking). Taking 10 would allow him to manufacture a +4 Str composite longbow in slightly over 9 weeks (24 × 23 DC = 552 sp / 5,000 sp).

So that's one 2nd-level elf expert (and his assistant) manufacturing five composite longbows a year that would feasibly only be utilized by among the strongest of warriors. Warriors of greater strength requiring greater bows would require greater experts to craft 'em, allowing for potentially a nice, minor quest to track one down (though preferably having said bow already been made. "Ah, 'tis my finest work! I might let you have it… if you can prove your valor and worth!").

[MisterKaws]

expert

Smiths should be Commoners, not experts, because seriously, commoners have an average of 8 levels on the crappiest of villages, and all benefits that come with having at least twice the level of any expert in the same village.

[Âmesang]

Well considering they both have Craft as a class-skill I suppose the particular class is irrelevant…

[MisterKaws]

Well considering they both have Craft as a class-skill I suppose the particular class is irrelevant…

Thing is: commoners are ridiculously high-leveled, so they can get tons of bonuses to crafting, unlike experts.

[jk7275]

On some level I am ok with the crafting system, I don't have much of a problem with full plate or composite bows taking weeks or months to make unless you have a boatload of ranks in it. I have a low level ranger and I feel letting him make a composite bow that gives him his +3 strength bonus in a week or less is a bad idea but if he is level 20 and maxed out crafting then maybe it isn't so bad

Ideally what I want they did was come up with a separate DC for each item instead of grouping a whole bunch items together and giving each item in the group the same DC. Instead of having a weekly check just a a daily check or perhaps half day checks. You just work on the items 4 hour at a time until its done. For arrows and other types of ammo have something that tell you how you can per hour

I am ok with using the items cost for coming up with what you have to pay to get the raw materials but I question using the items cost to determine how long it take to make. Should a candlestick made out of gold take a lot longer to make then one made out of silver simply because gold costs more then silver. When I look at simple weapons vs exotic weapons and how long it takes I just feel they need to change the DC or not use price for seeing how long it takes