Ninja_Prawn's Advanced Crafting Project - Comments Requested!

[Ninja_Prawn]

A long time ago, in a thread far, far away (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=20021387&postcount=12), I promised to write an Advanced Crafting supplement for D&D 5e. And now, after two months of hard work, it is finally ready!

I present to you: the first draft of Ninja_Prawn's Advanced Crafting Rules!
Rulebook (https://www.dropbox.com/s/hss8hp08v4dvrh2/Advanced%20Crafting%20Rules%202.pdf?dl=0) Original version (https://www.dropbox.com/s/fxshenxuvv6ystn/Advanced%20Crafting%20Rules.pdf?dl=0)
Dungeon Master's Reference (https://www.dropbox.com/s/qjnfaxsuwupwdvr/Advanced%20Crafting%20Rules%20-%20DM%20Reference.pdf?dl=0)

To be issued at a later (unspecified) date:
The Alchemist's Cookbook
Codes of Practice for Castle Builders
How to Mine like a Dwarf

This project is mostly on hold right now. I intend to come back to it at some point, or develop it along with my colleagues at Mage Hand Press.

The purpose of this supplement is to address the perceived problems with 5e's crafting rules, to make item creation a fun and viable option for players that want to do it.



Perceived complaint
How this supplement addresses it


Crafting feels like an afterthought that no one paid any attention to.
Dedicated supplement contains crafting-based character options and advice for DMs on how to incorporate it into their games.


Crafting takes too long.
Crafting speed for all items increased; parallel crafting introduced for alchemy, brewing, cooking and herbalism.


Material consumption is too vague.
Recipes for potions etc. included (in The Alchemist's Cookbook). Guidelines on where to find materials in the world.


Insufficient granularity in tools.
New standard tools introduced.


No support for post-medieval settings.
New tools introduced for renaissance, modern and futuristic settings.


Rules for running businesses and building strongholds insufficient and unrealistic.
Rules expanded, including new rules for major engineering projects (in Codes of Practice for Castle Builders).


Is there anything that needs to be added to the DM guide? I feel like it's a little thin.

Is the Journeyman PrC overpowered? I'm not very experienced at making those. Also, can anyone think of a name that isn't gender-specific (without stealing from the feats I've already named)?

Is there anything game-breaking that I might have introduced by accident?

[Giant2005]

I'd just like to say that I long ago abandoned my account here but this homebrew was so awesome that against my better judgement I felt compelled to log back in and express as much. I have already submitted it to my DM in the hopes that it will be allowed in our game.

I do have one minor concern though. Many times throughout the PDF you differentiate between crafting normal items and magical items (Most notably, the spells only help in crafting non-magic items) however the line between what constitutes magic and not magic is never really defined. Sure with most crafting vocations that line is fairly obvious and doesn't really need any form of elaboration. With potions however, I have no idea what counts as magic and what doesn't (Healing potions for example can be crafted as non-magic items but how powerful/rare do they have to be before magic is a requirement?).

It might even be simpler to throw away the magic and non-magic conditions and have those spells limited by rarity. For example, rather than have Safiya's Industrious Worker only effect non-magical crafting, it could instead be limited to common (Or uncommon and below depending on how useful you want it to be) items which is a better defined condition. Of course you would also have to add a clause that states non-magic items are always considered to be common or something to that effect.

[Ninja_Prawn]

Thanks for the review!

You make a fair point and I should probably clarify what counts as magical. I had intended that everything in the DMG would be magical except for basic Potions of Healing (because they're listed in the adventuring gear table in the PHB). I think I'll drop the non-magical requirement from Industrious Worker. That was written ages ago for my chronomancy supplement, so it doesn't take into account the new rules.

Thinking about it though, if potions are the main sticking point, I might just shunt all that into the Alchemist's Cookbook. That will hopefully be a more detailed treatment of potions and stuff anyway.

[Giant2005]

Throwing most of the potions stuff in the Alchemist's Cookbook would certainly make sense (Although please don't do that until the Alchemist's Cookbook is ready for release!) but unless you plan on basically reprinting the spells, feats, classes and general rules with amendments on how the effect potion crafting, you are probably better off better sorting out how they interact with potions now and editing those spells and such in the original document.
The Alchemist's Cookbook would probably end up being a horrible read if it had too many reprints from the original document.

I'm glad to hear about the (potential?) change to Industrious Worker but my concerns would still be relevant for Duplicate Object regarding potions (Which I am almost certain would never be allowed to function with magic items).

I do have one other concern that I didn't mention because it is fairly insignificant but it is also the difference between me caring about the existence of the Journeyman PRC or not. Serious crafters tend to require magic but the Journeyman PRC does not have any magic progression which very nearly makes them mutually exclusive to most people. Sure the Journeyman is useful for mundane crafters and perhaps for those magical crafters that are more interested in low-end throughput rather than high-end crafting but I think most players would be far more interested in the high end magical stuff that the Journeyman PRC would actually stop them from being able to craft. Simply adding continued spell progression to the PRC would solve that issue to high-end and low-end crafters alike would both have reason to progress through it or if you would rather keep the Journeyman as it is, a second PRC more focused on high-end crafting rather than low-end throughput would be appreciated.

[Ninja_Prawn]

Ah, I hadn't realised that... Yes, I see now that the journeyman needs spellcasting to be worthwhile. The question is how to balance it. I'd be ok with dropping some features (some of them don't make much sense anyway), but perhaps there's a better way? It could have half-casting, or a smaller hit die perhaps...

I'd like to hear a few more opinions before I make a decision on that.

[Giant2005]

Fair enough.
Personally, I think you could just keep the features as is, add spellcasting progression, and call it a day. The extra features + the possible extra HP kind of pale in comparison to the high level features the caster would be giving up from their original class anyway. If you want to err on the side of caution and opt to make it underpowered rather than risk it being overpowered (A general mentality I tend to respect), then just have it progress spell slots and not spells known. As I understand it, the spell slots are all that matter to a crafter anyway and losing out on the higher leveled spells is an extra opportunity cost that would certainly ensure the class would be anything but overpowered.

I do have one more (probably final) question/observation. With the way they are written, Expertise and Industrious Worker do not stack at all - Industrious Worker would completely overwrite Expertise in the same way that different AC formulas cannot stack. Firstly, is this intentional? If it isn't, how do you intend them to stack: additively, or multiplicatively?

[Ninja_Prawn]

I do have one more (probably final) question/observation. With the way they are written, Expertise and Industrious Worker do not stack at all - Industrious Worker would completely overwrite Expertise in the same way that different AC formulas cannot stack. Firstly, is this intentional? If it isn't, how do you intend them to stack: additively, or multiplicatively?

Clearly the spell needs to be rewritten. The RAI of the spell is that four hours of work happen in one hour, and that an expert does twice as much work in one hour, so they should stack multiplicatively. I think that's ok; you generally have to go out of your way to get expertise, so it ought to be worthwhile.

[Giant2005]

Clearly the spell needs to be rewritten. The RAI of the spell is that four hours of work happen in one hour, and that an expert does twice as much work in one hour, so they should stack multiplicatively. I think that's ok; you generally have to go out of your way to get expertise, so it ought the be worthwhile.

I agree.
I made myself up a little table with the potions I might want to create and how long it would take to craft them depending on what combinations of Expertise, Industrious Worker and Shortcuts I may have available and by using all 3 the times did seem kind of short. However that shortness of time isn't really a concern because the actual cost of the ingredients to produce high end items are still incredibly high. I'd much rather the prohibiting factor be something that is able to be controlled (Money) over something that isn't even in the DM's control in any reasonable fashion (Time).
For example if I understand everything right, if you have Expertise, cast Industrious Worker and use Shortcuts, a single person could brew a batch of 5 Invulnerability potions in 4.6875 hours. That sounds incredibly fast but such an action would also cost him 937.5 gold, so it is far from something he would be doing a lot of anyway. It is just awesome that he actually has the ability to reasonably brew such potions if he did end up with some cash to burn.

[Ninja_Prawn]

Yeah. One of the major complaints I kept hearing was that it was un-fun and immersion-breaking when it takes weeks to brew a single potion. I think that's one of the major selling points of this homebrew - brewing your own potions is now a feasible option, and might give an alchemist a real advantage in a low magic world where you can't just buy these things in a shop.

[Arkhios]

Yeah. One of the major complaints I kept hearing was that it was un-fun and immersion-breaking when it takes weeks to brew a single potion. I think that's one of the major selling points of this homebrew - brewing your own potions is now a feasible option, and might give an alchemist a real advantage in a low magic world where you can't just buy these things in a shop.

This.

When I saw this guide of yours the other day (I was just about to hit the pillow) I immediately thought I just had to implement it to my low magic world I've been babbling about since I signed up in the forums (lol).

I agree that for a crafter, who is somewhat dependant on being able to cast spells, it would be a huge downgrade of not getting any synergy in spellcasting sense. Losing (up to) 3 levels worth of spells isn't really that bad, if only you'd get spell slot progression at the very least. As for the Hit Die for the PrC, I don't think it's too implausible to drop it down to 1d6, as I see them a bit more scholarly than most characters (that is, investing a lot of their time on research and craft, rather than in some measure of combat training and therefore increased durability - like bards who tend to be jacks-of-all-trades, both in and out of combat). However, how would the spell slot progression work in a low magic world, where it's possible that all spellcasters are absent? Could it be that the PrC didn't require you to be a spellcaster? Perhaps there could be some sort of link between crafting itself and the spell slots (like, a paladin expending slots to use divine smite). Moreover, letting the Journeyman PrC remain available for characters that do not have levels nor otherwise an access to spellcasting feature, would definitely improve the attractiveness of this PrC.

As for the name, how about Wandering Artisan? Synonymous in meaning with Journeyman, with a notion to their adventurous vocation.

[Ninja_Prawn]

Could it be that the PrC didn't require you to be a spellcaster? Perhaps there could be some sort of link between crafting itself and the spell slots (like, a paladin expending slots to use divine smite). Moreover, letting the Journeyman PrC remain available for characters that do not have levels nor otherwise an access to spellcasting feature, would definitely improve the attractiveness of this PrC.

That's an interesting thought, I could easily replace one of the current features with a 'magical crafting' thing that lets you make magic items without needing to expend spell slots. As you say, giving the PrC a spellcasting progression without any 'spells known' (as I was contemplating before) doesn't do anything for people with a martial base class. Giving them full spellcasting is fiddly (and will add a lot of text, possibly messing up my layout & formatting) and doesn't feel right to me. Hmm...

Edit:


As for the name, how about Wandering Artisan? Synonymous in meaning with Journeyman, with a notion to their adventurous vocation.

I like that. I think I may have mentally reserved the word 'artisan' for a feat, but then didn't use it.

[Arkhios]

Judging by how Rune Scribe was laid out, a PrC giving their own spell list is probably something that should be avoided when designing such a class. A comparable progression in spell slots is doable, but agreed, it'll be a lot more text to add. And giving said spell slots to a martial based class without any spells to use them with would be a little odd, indeed.

Perhaps, if you made an 'amorphous' class feature that would change depending whether the character had spellcasting already or not. For a non-caster it could give pseudo-magical abilities, and for a caster it might add the aforementioned spell slots.

Again, this would mean more text, but it might address the issue. Or maybe, you could make either version as a Variant option (think of it as a side-bar).

[Giant2005]

Giving the Journeyman Spellcasting really wouldn't be broken - except for the fact that the Bard's Expertise cannot be applied to tools, multiclassing into Bard would have mostly the same effect.
Compare the first 3 levels of Bard to Journeyman and you get this:

Bard:
D8 HP
1 skill + 1 tool proficiency
Expertise
Jack of all Trades
Full Spellcasting + Cantrips + Rituals
Inspiration
Song of Rest
2 abilities based on your Subclass

Journeyman
D8 HP
2 tool proficiencies
Expertise
Jack of all Trades
Trader's Tongue
Exotic Contacts
Ruggedized Equipment
Sabotage Machinery.

If you take away the shared abilities, you are looking at Full Spellcasting + Cantrips + Rituals, Inspiration, Song of Rest, 2 abilities based on your Subclass Vs Trader's Tongue, Exotic Contacts, Ruggedized Equipment and Sabotage Machinery. Of those latter abilities, Exotic Contacts and Ruggedized Equipment are basically Ribbon abilities and Trader's Tongue and Sabotage Machinery are so circumstantial that you would be hard pressed to compare them favourably to the Bardic abilities.
Even if you give the Journeyman full spellcasting progression in both slots and spells, Trader's Tongue, Exotic Contacts, Ruggedized Equipment and Sabotage Machinery don't really hold up so well compared to the Inspiration, Song of Rest, and 2 abilities based on your Subclass of the Bard. If a DM allows the Bard to use Tool Proficiencies with his Expertise, the Bard is just better.

[Giant2005]

Perhaps, if you made an 'amorphous' class feature that would change depending whether the character had spellcasting already or not. For a non-caster it could give pseudo-magical abilities, and for a caster it might add the aforementioned spell slots.

It would be kind of easy to just add a line like: "Prestige Spellcasting: Choose one class of your choice and gain its Spellcasting or Pact Magic ability. Add any levels of that class you possess (If any) to your Journeyman level and defer to that class table to determine both spell slots and spells known/prepared.

[M Placeholder]

I think there should be something about constructing and augmenting a homunculus, as well as crafting poisons.

[Ninja_Prawn]

I think there should be something about constructing and augmenting a homunculus, as well as crafting poisons.

Poisons will be covered in the Alchemist's Cookbook.

I hadn't thought if living constructs though... I guess they're different enough from other items that they'd warrant their own section. What would you all like to see in such a section? I'm thinking group them into categories, write stat blocks, specify how to build, repair and upgrade them... It'll probably need to be a modular design.

And what are the most important ones to cover, apart from homunculus? I'm thinking golems, marionettes, scarecrows... anything else?

[Ninja_Prawn]

Okay people, I've done a quick update. The only changes are an additional paragraph to define what a magic item is (page 4) and a re-wording of Safiya's Industrious Worker (page 20/21). And a re-sizing of the blacksmith image on page 5.

Having defined a 'magic item', I don't see any need to change Duplicate Object, which was intended to apply to non-magical items only.

I will change the Journeyman, but I haven't decided exactly where it's going yet.

[Flashy]

Making potions of healing mundane means you have to spend way longer crafting them. Since you make progress at only 2gp a day for mundane alchemical items you have to spend 25 hours to craft a healing potion, while you only have to spend 10 hours to craft a potion of hill giant strength.

That actually sort of segues into my general point, which is that I really like this supplement but wonder when exactly in a character's career they'll be able to actually produce magic items. It takes 100 hours to craft a +1 shield or a Cloak of Elvenkind compared to 10,000 hours for a Staff of Fire or Sword of Sharpness, but what does that mean in terms of actual play? When in the level progression will players really see the results of their labor? Say you have an Eldritch Knight who wants to craft a Wand of Magic Missiles. It'll take her 100 hours since she hasn't got expertise, and we'll assume she didn't take Safiya's Industrious Worker. If she starts crafting the second she hits third level, what level will she be when she finishes her wand?

The answer depends entirely on how much time the DM gives her to craft since the exact crafting requirements, access to fixed crafting tools, and other similar necessities are all set by the DM. So let's consider three different groups. One group is granted ~8 hours of craft time per standard adventuring day (moderate craft), one is granted ~24 hours of craft time per standard adventuring day (high craft), and one is granted ~3 hours of craft time per standard adventuring day (low craft). Though these are supposed to be average numbers rather than amount offered per week the idea is to represent a group who crafts two weeks out of a month, a group that crafts three weeks out of a month, and a group that crafts only on weekends. In the moderate craft group our Eldritch Knight takes 12.5 (13) adventuring days to craft her wand, in the high craft group she takes 4.16 (5) days to craft her wand, and in the low craft group she takes 33.33 (34) days to craft her wand. If we assume an average of 6 encounters per adventuring day (which is a heck of an assumption, but it's on the low end of what the DMG recommends so I'm going to run with it) then the number of encounters to craft her wand is 75, 25, and 200 for the various groups. There are a lot of different estimates of the number of encounters required to level up floating around the internet, but my personal table of choice is the Angry GM's 1/4 easy 1/4 hard table (http://theangrygm.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/09/Encounter-Breakdown-Test.png) from this article (http://theangrygm.com/welcome-to-the-megadungeon-how-to-award-xp/). So an Eldritch Knight crafting an uncommon item at 3rd level should finish it about half way through 8th level in the moderate craft group, almost as soon as she hits 5th level in the high craft group, and somewhere in the late teens in the low craft group. On the whole seems like a pretty good curve considering that people who want the "only on weekends" crafting probably aren't the intended audience of this supplement anyway. Even in the low group you could still craft about as quickly as a player in the moderate craft group by stacking expertise and Safiya's Industrious Worker, though rare and higher items are probably not going to happen. On the other hand, the high craft group begins to make things ludicrously quickly (in terms of level progression) when you start to factor in expertise or Safiya, so that's probably not a great idea either. 8 average crafting hours per adventuring day seems to be right around where this system is at its best.

I'm calculating the number of encounters to craft an item as (rarity cost/5) / (average number of craft hours per adventuring day), then multiplied by 6. I multipled average number of craft hours per adventuring day by 2, 4, or 8 when necessary to factor in some combination of expertise and Safiya's Industrious Worker.

Number of Encounters to Craft Permanent Items @ 8hrs/adventuring day


Item Rarity
Standard
Expertise
Safiya
Expertise + Safiya


Uncommon
75
38
25
10


Rare
750
375
250
94


Very Rare
7,500
3,750
2,500
938


Legendary
75,000
37,500
25,000
9,375



This feels right to me. A character who wants to craft but doesn't really invest in features to make themselves craft more quickly probably gets one or two uncommon items in the course of the game, someone who invests moderately gets a reasonable boost, and someone who invests incredibly hard gets to craft a rare item in a little longer than a normal character takes to craft an uncommon item. It might get a little wibbly when characters are churning out three uncommon items every two levels, but this is what checks like recipes are for. Legendary items can never be crafted in the course of normal play, though campaigns that allow downtime on the order of years to decades still make them an option. I really like this.

Random Thoughts

What does a Necklace of Fireballs count as? Is is permanent or single use?
I utterly adore both the shortcut and flourish rules.
Alarm Glyph is basically a version of Glyph of Warding that's actually worth using, which I really like.
It's possible I missed it but I couldn't find anything in the list of tools and products that related to making magical items like wands. I'd love to see that added.

[Ninja_Prawn]

Random Thoughts

What does a Necklace of Fireballs count as? Is is permanent or single use?
I utterly adore both the shortcut and flourish rules.
Alarm Glyph is basically a version of Glyph of Warding that's actually worth using, which I really like.
It's possible I missed it but I couldn't find anything in the list of tools and products that related to making magical items like wands. I'd love to see that added.


Thanks for the feedback!

There's an implicit assumption that runs through this supplement that time spent crafting is mutually exclusive from time spent adventuring. Therefore XP advancement and the concept of 'encounters/day' is put on hold while people are in the workshop. Basically, it assumes that most people aren't slogging through dungeons literally every day of their lives, which seems reasonable to me; the psychological stress alone that that would cause would be unimaginable.

Random responses:
Single use. I will change that to 'consumable for clarity.
Yeah, I'm quite happy with how they turned out.
It's intended to be used to secure goods in a shop, like those magnetic tags we use IRL. If you spot a way to abuse it, let me know. The Dispel version should be used as an item enchantment so a shop clerk can use it repeatedly.
Wands are produced by carpenters, rods by smiths. I may have missed that from the table.

[Flashy]

Thanks for the feedback!

There's an implicit assumption that runs through this supplement that time spent crafting is mutually exclusive from time spent adventuring. Therefore XP advancement and the concept of 'encounters/day' is put on hold while people are in the workshop. Basically, it assumes that most people aren't slogging through dungeons literally every day of their lives, which seems reasonable to me; the psychological stress alone that that would cause would be unimaginable.

Totally! I was just curious how it worked at different levels of occasional adventuring. The 8 hours per "adventuring day" metric I wound up using in that last table was never meant to assume that characters spend literally a day in a tomb and then a day crafting, just that on the whole for every six encounters the players see about eight hours of good solid crafting somewhere. That could be two weeks on two weeks off, a day of adventuring, a week of travel, a week of crafting, and then a couple days of fighting, or whatever. And it assumes that you're even using a combat based approach to exp anyway, which frankly doesn't really fit the general ethos of this sort of game anyway. I was really just curious about how this interacted with the default systems, and how many magic items you could expect a suitably optimized character to be hauling around at different levels of crafting.

[Giant2005]

Single use. I will change that to 'consumable for clarity.

I actually thought the "Single Use" thing was far more clear than the more generic "Consumable" term used in the DMG. I liked the fact that you changed it.
With the "Single Use" term, it is pretty clear what counts and what doesn't (Anything that can be used more than once doesn't count). However with the more generic "Consumable" term, it generates ambiguity with items like the Rod of Absorption which technically falls into the category of "Consumable" but I really don't think that was the intention.

[Ninja_Prawn]

I actually thought the "Single Use" thing was far more clear than the more generic "Consumable" term used in the DMG. I liked the fact that you changed it.
With the "Single Use" term, it is pretty clear what counts and what doesn't (Anything that can be used more than once doesn't count). However with the more generic "Consumable" term, it generates ambiguity with items like the Rod of Absorption which technically falls into the category of "Consumable" but I really don't think that was the intention.

I take your point, but on reflection, I think 'single use' introduces more ambiguity because a lot of limited-use objects (which are intended to be in that category) can be used more than once. In the specific case of the rod of absorption, I could go either way. Is the rod so powerful that it warrants classification as a permanent item? Should I explicitly define 'consumable' as 'anything that disappears or is destroyed when used'? Is it better to just leave it to the DM?

[Giant2005]

I take your point, but on reflection, I think 'single use' introduces more ambiguity because a lot of limited-use objects (which are intended to be in that category) can be used more than once. In the specific case of the rod of absorption, I could go either way. Is the rod so powerful that it warrants classification as a permanent item? Should I explicitly define 'consumable' as 'anything that disappears or is destroyed when used'? Is it better to just leave it to the DM?

There are so many variables and edge cases that it is just too problematic to define without making a hard line like what was originally there with the single use term.
If you aren't taking the hard line, then I'd recommend just leaving the term consumable ambiguous and up to DM interpretation.

EDIT: In hindsight, I'm not even sure the Rod of Absorption would be too much of an issue. Crafting it at 5000 gp is still kind of expensive, although it really does blow Spell Scrolls out of the water in both cost effectiveness and utility. Although that is probably more due to Spell Scrolls themselves still being a bit of a waste of cash. More of a concern would be classifying the Staff of Power as consumable due to its Retributive Strike ability. Crafting a Staff of Power for 5000 gp would be a little too cheap (Although even then it would only happen if the DM wanted it to due to him controlling access to recipes).

[Arkhios]

yello! Just stopping by to check if any upgrades have been made. I'm soon about to introduce these rules, however unfinished they are for now, in our collaborative campaign. :)

[Ninja_Prawn]

yello! Just stopping by to check if any upgrades have been made. I'm soon about to introduce these rules, however unfinished they are for now, in our collaborative campaign. :)

Argh, sorry, I haven't done anything with the PrC yet (everything else is 'finished' though, I think). I've gotten kind of swept up in my next fey thingy...

Ultimately, I think I have to split the concept into two: a PrC without spellcasting and a craft-centric bardic college (which obviously has full casting already). Then I'd probably make one of the PrC features a 'patch' that allows crafting some magic items. But I want to finish fey pt.3 first, because I'm well into that now. :smallfrown:

[Arkhios]

Argh, sorry, I haven't done anything with the PrC yet (everything else is 'finished' though, I think). I've gotten kind of swept up in my next fey thingy...

Ultimately, I think I have to split the concept into two: a PrC without spellcasting and a craft-centric bardic college (which obviously has full casting already). Then I'd probably make one of the PrC features a 'patch' that allows crafting some magic items. But I want to finish fey pt.3 first, because I'm well into that now. :smallfrown:

Heh, no worries, I can relate. I too have more than enough interesting stuff to attend to, and my focus has been somewhere between a fork and a cow. :smalltongue:

Yeah, I kind of figured that might be best way to present the spell-less and spellcaster options both. It does indeed get a bit weird when you make a "subclass" within a prestige class. :D
But really, no hurry, the one player in my group who might be interested in the prestige class isn't a spellcaster (or, scrap that, it might be an EK), but he has some other plans before taking a first level in the prestige class even becomes relevant.

[Ninja_Prawn]

and my focus has been somewhere between a fork and a cow. :smalltongue:

Is that a saying in Finland? I've never heard it before... :smallconfused:

If I don't manage to reconfigure the PrC before your player has need of it, feel free to customise your own. Perhaps I'll be able to incorporate your ideas!

[Arkhios]

Is that a saying in Finland? I've never heard it before... :smallconfused:

not that I know of. I just made up that now. The joys of experimenting with languages and metaphors, I guess :P
Edit: (or a succesfully cast Confusion spell!)

I'll check on it, and be sure to tell you if I come up with anything before you do!

[Ninja_Prawn]

not that I know of. I just made up that now. The joys of experimenting with languages and metaphors, I guess :P

Well it sounds good. Maybe I'll try and make it into a thing.

[ForgottenAvatar]

Hey there,

I glossed over the Rules, and they are awesome. I was wondering when you would be getting around to the Alchemist's Cookbook, as that is the big thing that I am wondering about for my game that will be starting on the 8th.

[Ninja_Prawn]

Hey there,

I glossed over the Rules, and they are awesome. I was wondering when you would be getting around to the Alchemist's Cookbook, as that is the big thing that I am wondering about for my game that will be starting on the 8th.

Well it won't be before the 8th. Sorry. The cookbook is moving up my to-do list; Project Fey is finally complete and the folio has progressed enough that I can leave it for a while, I'm about halfway through preparations for my next game, I'm done with 'regulars as subclasses' for the moment and 'regulars as spells' shouldn't take up too much of my time. The only thing left before I start on the cookbook is the 'history' contest, which I haven't really made any headway on yet. Oh, and I've got to fix that blasted prestige class. Rats. That's more important the alchemy, I think.

After that I anticipate it'll take at least a month to write the cookbook, maybe more if I'm not feeling inspired. So, end of April for a provisional release date?

[ForgottenAvatar]

Ok, that sounds good. I am thinking that could be just about perfect for my game, as it is only every other week.

[TheSethGrey]

I really hope the next rule-book you produce is Codes of Practice for Castle Builders as I like how in depth your writing is, and good rules for castles and engineering is always a good thing.

[Ninja_Prawn]

I really hope the next rule-book you produce is Codes of Practice for Castle Builders as I like how in depth your writing is, and good rules for castles and engineering is always a good thing.

I'm afraid the Alchemist's Cookbook was always going to be next on the list. Since it covers potions, herbalism, cooking and brewing (as well as traditional alchemy), it is likely to be of interest to a lot of people. Major engineering projects is much more specialised.

[WarrentheHero]

I bet if we combine all of our brewers' experience here as the project goes on, we could also put together a really rad Artificer class based on the rules presented here.

The only way to really make an Artificer that doesn't just abandon its origins (*cough* 4e *cough*) right now is to use the RAW crafting rules, which are pretty terrible and will likely result in a comparable terrible class.

But such an endeavor should not be undertaken until at least the Cookbook is out, I think.

[khadgar567]

I bet if we combine all of our brewers' experience here as the project goes on, we could also put together a really rad Artificer class based on the rules presented here.

The only way to really make an Artificer that doesn't just abandon its origins (*cough* 4e *cough*) right now is to use the RAW crafting rules, which are pretty terrible and will likely result in a comparable terrible class.

But such an endeavor should not be undertaken until at least the Cookbook is out, I think.
Yeah what we need for proper artificer
Spellcasting instead of infusions
No desing book shenanigans or need to build device to cast spell ( makes class worthless
self forged artificer path( prc from 4e)
Any aditional

[Arkhios]

Yeah what we need for proper artificer
Spellcasting instead of infusions
No desing book shenanigans or need to build device to cast spell ( makes class worthless
self forged artificer path( prc from 4e)
Any aditional

*counting days just in case so I'm not committing a thread-nomancy by posting this: 20 days! Still legal*

Alright.
I can't fathom where you got the idea that infusions would be best dropped out of the concept for an Artificer. The class was introduced in 3.5 Eberron Campaign Setting for the first time, and it sure as hell did NOT have Spellcasting feature. Infusions was their thing right from the beginning, and that's what should definitely follow to 5th edition.

Infusions is what they do. They do not cast spells. They artifice, a.k.a. craft things which produce wondrous, even magical effects similar to spells.

Dropping infusions and replacing them with spells *would be abandoning the origins*, which is not what we want.

[khadgar567]

*counting days just in case so I'm not committing a thread-nomancy by posting this: 20 days! Still legal*

Alright.
I can't fathom where you got the idea that infusions would be best dropped out of the concept for an Artificer. The class was introduced in 3.5 Eberron Campaign Setting for the first time, and it sure as hell did NOT have Spellcasting feature. Infusions was their thing right from the beginning, and that's what should definitely follow to 5th edition.

Dnd wiki it self which says" artificers are colage graguates " which means this bastards now how to cast ( inseart any spell) from get go infusions are just a way to hog tie the class back to tier 6 ( where the class becomes useless) so getting rid of infusions and giving wizard style slots make class some how useful again
Why i hate desing book or build contraption based model becouse its not inthe classes chasi it already has casting you morons so
( sorry for rant)

[Arkhios]

Dnd wiki it self which says" artificers are colage graguates " which means this bastards now how to cast ( inseart any spell) from get go infusions are just a way to hog tie the class back to tier 6 ( where the class becomes useless) so getting rid of infusions and giving wizard style slots make class some how useful again
Why i hate desing book or build contraption based model becouse its not inthe classes chasi it already has casting you morons so
( sorry for rant)

Excuse me? Where does DNDwiki base this information on? I'm looking at the actual 3.5 Eberron Campaign Setting book, and their class features do not imply they "cast" spells like a wizard or any other caster. They infuse items with magic through other means.
Besides, having spell slots doesn't mean you have to have Spellcasting feature (for example Warlocks have Pact magic instead). Infusions could just as well be a magical technique, which uses Spell slots to power up their infusions, while still not exactly spells.

PS. I find it amusing that people take everything on the internet, especially a medium such as dandwiki.com, for granted, as if the information there was accurate without questions. ;)
PPS. The artificer on that user-generated homebrew page isn't the real 3.5 Artificer. Check your facts.

[Ninja_Prawn]

Um, why are we talking about infusions? I have no intention of re-writing/fixing/whatever the artificer class/subclass.

And khadgar567, please don't flame in my thread. I will report you if you do it again.

[Arkhios]

Um, why are we talking about infusions? I have no intention of re-writing/fixing/whatever the artificer class/subclass.

And khadgar567, please don't flame in my thread. I will report you if you do it again.

Sorry, you're right. The whole artificer discussion is off-topic here.

[khadgar567]

Um, why are we talking about infusions? I have no intention of re-writing/fixing/whatever the artificer class/subclass.

And khadgar567, please don't flame in my thread. I will report you if you do it again.

sorry Prawn artificer is soft spot for me

[Ninja_Prawn]

After that I anticipate it'll take at least a month to write the cookbook, maybe more if I'm not feeling inspired. So, end of April for a provisional release date?

Update: this might have been a bit ambitious. Real-life work has been busy and I keep getting side-tracked by other things. I'll still try to get a draft up in April, but I make no promises.

[JNAProductions]

Update: this might have been a bit ambitious. Real-life work has been busy and I keep getting side-tracked by other things. I'll still try to get a draft up in April, but I make no promises.

Happens. Life is more important than D&D.

[Ninja_Prawn]

Update: things have somehow got even busier in the last few weeks. There will be no more progress on this project for the foreseeable future, but I will come back to it when I can.

[Ninja_Prawn]

Hello again, everyone. I have finally made some progress! Version 2 of the crafting rulebook is done; please check the link in the OP. I'd like some thoughts on the revised prestige classes... there is now one option for spellcasters that doesn't interrupt their progression and another for mundanes who wouldn't benefit from the caster levels but still need to be able to craft magic items.

Changes:
Pages 5-6: added rules for crafting constructs.
Page 8 (Designing Your Own Items): section expanded, rules for prototyping added.
Page 19 (Journeyman PrC): removed Enhanced Equipment, added Arcane Crafting, moved Sabotage Machinery to level 5.
Pages 20-21: added Magesmith PrC.

[Arkhios]

Hello again, everyone. I have finally made some progress! Version 2 of the crafting rulebook is done; please check the link in the OP. I'd like some thoughts on the revised prestige classes... there is now one option for spellcasters that doesn't interrupt their progression and another for mundanes who wouldn't benefit from the caster levels but still need to be able to craft magic items.

Changes:
Pages 5-6: added rules for crafting constructs.
Page 8 (Designing Your Own Items): section expanded, rules for prototyping added.
Page 19 (Journeyman PrC): removed Enhanced Equipment, added Arcane Crafting, moved Sabotage Machinery to level 5.
Pages 20-21: added Magesmith PrC.

At a glance, looking good.
...though, where's Wandering Artisan :smalltongue:

Humour aside, how'd you suppose the two PrC's interact with each other? e.g. In a very unlikely case that someone wanted to pick both PrC's just because they could?

[Ninja_Prawn]

Humour aside, how'd you suppose the two PrC's interact with each other? e.g. In a very unlikely case that someone wanted to pick both PrC's just because they could?

Well there isn't much overlap, so they'd gain a lot of craft-related benefits but lose out in terms of focus and combat-effectiveness. After all, both classes assume you have plenty of levels of another class, which should be the main source of damage etc.

[Mjolnirbear]

Something that occurred to me: the use of attunement. I did not see its mention in this awesome supplement.

If I missed it, I'm sorry. If I didn't, it's important to bring up for several reasons:

1) that player gaming the system to 'invent' unattuned versions of attunement-restricted items
2) the narrative use of an item: attuned to elf only has a flair that it otherwise would not
3) costs or benefits for adding attunement. Maybe it's cheaper to add attunement, or more expensive not to. Maybe putting in an attunement allows adding a 'flourish' at reduced cost or for free. On the other hand, what's to stop the player from making items 'only use able by me' and therefore has no risk of having his toys taken away and used against him. In this case, adding attunement and profiting thereby is even more profitable.
4) guidelines for when to add attunement or not. Maybe attunement is necessary for items that cast spells you would otherwise need to concentrate on (attunement causes an energy bridge between you and the item allowing some rules to be bent?)


One final thing: when you cook up the Alchemist's Cookbook, I'd love it if you could spare some thought to consumables that aren't potions or scrolls. Monte Cook added something to his Arcana Evolved system and I have loved it ever since. No pressure though if you don't... I can add it myself.

This is amazing and I'm grateful for the work you put into it.

[Stan]

It's all very cool. I can't wait for the Alchemist's Cookbook.

[Ninja_Prawn]

Something that occurred to me: the use of attunement. I did not see its mention in this awesome supplement.

That's good thinking. It probably belongs in the DM's guide; I think the ability mess with an item's attunement type is too powerful to just say "you can pay <arbitrary cost> and then do whatever." It needs to go through the DM, and DMs will need guidance on what works and what doesn't.

[Submortimer]

Hey Prawn...

I made a thing, you might like it. (https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B_73NA7vK-0OeDV5c2t0MUxSQlk/view)

[khadgar567]

Hey Prawn...

I made a thing, you might like it. (https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B_73NA7vK-0OeDV5c2t0MUxSQlk/view)

looks to good to be true thank you sir

[Ninja_Prawn]

Hey Prawn...

I made a thing, you might like it. (https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B_73NA7vK-0OeDV5c2t0MUxSQlk/view)

Contrary to popular belief, I don't really like crafting in D&D. But this is still pretty cool! A shame it's not really compatible with my supplement, but I know you have to assume people will be playing by RAW when you write your things.

[Stan]

After helping my son with something, it occurred to me that these rules would be very helpful in a Minecraft inspired campaign. Imagine a party who finds themselves in a low population, dangerous land. Could be shipwreck, a portal, post apocalypse, or an exploratory expedition.

In addition to class abilities, each has a tool set they're proficient with. If you want to be really hardcore, they start with only the equipment from their background. They need to find materials and craft almost everything they need to survive. Maybe they'll find a village here and there.

Pregame, they might want to decide the most important crafts to have. Basic stuff like carpentry might be key to establishing a base. Smithing could get new tools, weapons and armor. Cartography would help them explore without getting lost.

Shortcuts and flourishes would be handy - cutting corners when you're trying to finish things quickly before the next attack or before you run out of food. Flourishes could allow exploration of more biomes with the same tool. Increasing productivity would be big too.

The list of materials by biome would be a guide for where to explore in detail based on party needs.

You'd need an end goal and/or events happening to get beyond drudgery after a while, like escape, finding X, or making Y.

Anyway, enough rambling, data needs extracting.

[Ninja_Prawn]

After helping my son with something, it occurred to me that these rules would be very helpful in a Minecraft inspired campaign. Imagine a party who finds themselves in a low population, dangerous land. Could be shipwreck, a portal, post apocalypse, or an exploratory expedition.

In addition to class abilities, each has a tool set they're proficient with. If you want to be really hardcore, they start with only the equipment from their background. They need to find materials and craft almost everything they need to survive. Maybe they'll find a village here and there.

Pregame, they might want to decide the most important crafts to have. Basic stuff like carpentry might be key to establishing a base. Smithing could get new tools, weapons and armor. Cartography would help them explore without getting lost.

Shortcuts and flourishes would be handy - cutting corners when you're trying to finish things quickly before the next attack or before you run out of food. Flourishes could allow exploration of more biomes with the same tool. Increasing productivity would be big too.

The list of materials by biome would be a guide for where to explore in detail based on party needs.

You'd need an end goal and/or events happening to get beyond drudgery after a while, like escape, finding X, or making Y.

Anyway, enough rambling, data needs extracting.

That sounds awesome. I'd play that game, probably as a dwarven brewer! :smallwink:

The extra rules for large projects (buildings, ships, fortifications, etc.) would be especially important to something like this... I haven't started writing them yet but, if anyone wants to throw out some ideas, I'll be sure to consider them when it does come time to write it!

[Arkhios]

After helping my son with something, it occurred to me that these rules would be very helpful in a Minecraft inspired campaign. Imagine a party who finds themselves in a low population, dangerous land. Could be shipwreck, a portal, post apocalypse, or an exploratory expedition.

In addition to class abilities, each has a tool set they're proficient with. If you want to be really hardcore, they start with only the equipment from their background. They need to find materials and craft almost everything they need to survive. Maybe they'll find a village here and there.

Pregame, they might want to decide the most important crafts to have. Basic stuff like carpentry might be key to establishing a base. Smithing could get new tools, weapons and armor. Cartography would help them explore without getting lost.

Shortcuts and flourishes would be handy - cutting corners when you're trying to finish things quickly before the next attack or before you run out of food. Flourishes could allow exploration of more biomes with the same tool. Increasing productivity would be big too.

The list of materials by biome would be a guide for where to explore in detail based on party needs.

You'd need an end goal and/or events happening to get beyond drudgery after a while, like escape, finding X, or making Y.

Anyway, enough rambling, data needs extracting.

My post-apocalyptic setting isn't far from that, technically I could take the step behind to enforce what you suggested: You craft what you need to survive in a world full of dangers.

Thanks for the idea!

PS. accidentally multi-quoted... Obviously, I'm going to implement Ninja_Prawns project into my campaign. :smallsmile:

[Bharaeth]

Hey Prawn...

I made a thing, you might like it. (https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B_73NA7vK-0OeDV5c2t0MUxSQlk/view)

For Submortimer:

I really like the Craftsman class you have proposed, but had a couple of quibbles, or bits of advice:

For the Hit Points, D10 seems too high - D10 or higher should be the preserve of characters more thoroughly focused on fighting like Barbarians, Fighters, Paladins and Rangers, I think. For a character class focusing moreso on non-combat, like this, I recommend D8 Hit Points to be a more appropriate match

Under the Smithy class feature, the section where you make a day's worth of progress towards an item during a long rest; is this only if you have the correct tools, and also a could a (multi-)character feasibly regain spell slots or reduce exhaustion or replenish other features when they are spending all night with forge, hammer and anvil?

Really like the Tool Belt idea - it's like the Utility Belt talent in Star Wars Edge of Empire! But how would you justify the item disappearing the next time you take a long rest?

Well-Built Equipment - really cool, but I think I would prefer the +1 bonus to be nonmagical, as I question whether the class needs to be magically-orientated

Crafting Techniques: love the idea of these - again, I like RPGs like Edge of Empire or Shadowrun where you can customise your gear

With the Beginner Craftsman and Journeyman Craftsman features, is the Mending and Fabricate access considered to be nonmagical versions of the spells?

Extra Attack: again, like my comment on the Hit Points, I think this ability shouldn't kick in as early as 5th level, as that steals some of the other martial character classes' thunder - maybe at 6th, as with the College of Valor Bard or Bladesinger tradition Wizards of the Sword Coast

I really like touch of the construct damaging from Craftsman's Strike (although, as a quibble, I'd want to change this feature's name, to something like 'Identify Flaw' or 'Target Flaw'; I don't know). Similarly, I also like the skill proficiency element of Master Craftsman.

Crafting Techniques - these are awesome, but I had some specific comments regarding some of them:

With the 'Hollow' beginner weapon technique, removing the heavy property and adding the light property seems a bit redundant - as far as I can tell, there are no weapons with the heavy property that don't also have the two-handed property, which wouldn't be able to be used alongside the light property (unless there are other benefits to 'light' weapons that I've not considered?). Did you intend for the two-handed property to be removed as well in these cases, or is it your intention Hollow greatsword (for example) end us being d10 damage, finesse and two-handed (but effectively not light)?

With the fluff for the 'Mighty' beginner weapon technique, would adding flexible metal really help with the pull? Wouldn't it be better if it said something about integrating different materials like a composite bow, with horn on the inside (belly side) and something stretchy like sinew glued to the outside?

'Switch weapon' is really great!

I like all the beginner armor techniques

The 'Chained' apprentice weapon technique seems a bit too good: you gain reach, resistance to disarming, and you can double your attacks? I wasn't sure why you have the bit about gaining 1 (or 2, if TWF) extra attack(s) - I reckon you should scratch that third bit

'Hooked' by comparison seems too rubbish; if you hit with an attack, you don't do damage, but instead get to spend a bonus action for the privilege of rolling again for your shove check? Even with advantage on the second roll, that could often end up as hitting your target, doing no damage and then your shove attempt failing, for no net gain. I reckon on a hit should still do damage, but allow the bonus action shove

With the 'Spiked' apprentice weapon technique, I find it difficult to imagine how that can apply to a piercing damage weapon. Spiky daggers, shortswords, javelins and arrows? I can much better imagine a longsowrd or axe with spiked edges - I think it would be better to apply to bludgeoning and slashing damage weapons, instead

Moving on to apprentice armor techniques, I had a quick query about the 'Bladed Armor' technique. Can that stack with 'Retractable Shield'? If so, that would make for very busy bracers!

With the 'Basket Hilt' journeyman weapon technique, it seems maybe too powerful if your modified weapon offers the +2 AC from being a shield, too

Is there any reason that the 'Twinshot' journeyman weapon technique doesn't apply to crossbows, too?

'Installed Crossbow' is bad ass fun! Sort of becoming a D&D version of Iron Man

Actually, ignore that last comment: 'Installed Wand' multiple times makes you D&D Iron Man. This seems like too much of a power jump. Why allow this up to 3 times, but not 'Installed Crossbow' twice? 1,500gp and 15 days of work gives you access to 6 cantrips at lvl 10, which is more cantrips than even the lvl 10 Wizard, i think. I would limit this to 1 or 2 uses - one per gauntlet - or make this a higher level technique. Or both

With the 'Primordium Steel Blade' master weapon technique, I realise that by now they are limited by subclass choice, but choosing which extra damage type to use with each attack seems very powerful, in terms of versatility

'Devestating' and 'Penetrating' legendary weapon techniques are perfection!

With the 'Pincer' legendary weapon tehcnique, should that read that until the restrained creature is free, you can't attack again with this weapon? Also, what sort of action is it to free the target?

There is also a typo in the Properties section for the Warpike exotic weapon, reading 'two-hamded' instead of 'two-handed'

[Iqoniq]

This project is amazing. Instantly a requirement for my own games. So badass.

[KoyukiTei13]

There are a few interesting pdfs on the DMs Guild site regarding alchemy/herbalism/general crafting that I wanted to bring to your attention. I like comparing various options before writing my own take of an idea. Sorry if you've seen these before!

http://www.dmsguild.com/product/180321/HerbalismDefined-Refined-and-Usable

http://www.dmsguild.com/product/171344/Recipe-Crafting-for-Consumables

http://www.dmsguild.com/product/183534/Fantasy-Foundry

[Ninja_Prawn]

There are a few interesting pdfs on the DMs Guild site regarding alchemy/herbalism/general crafting that I wanted to bring to your attention. I like comparing various options before writing my own take of an idea. Sorry if you've seen these before!

http://www.dmsguild.com/product/180321/HerbalismDefined-Refined-and-Usable

http://www.dmsguild.com/product/171344/Recipe-Crafting-for-Consumables

http://www.dmsguild.com/product/183534/Fantasy-Foundry

Thanks for the links! More inspiration is always helpful.

[Ninja_Prawn]

Progress update: I've been doing some work on the Cookbook... all of the simple items and most of the complex alchemical compounds are listed. I think I'll focus on the list of ingredients next, since I've had to leave a lot of placeholders in the recipes and it's starting to bug me.

If anyone has any thoughts on where I can find canon or semi-canon information on D&D plants etc., that'd be useful. At the moment I'm mostly relying on realmshelps.net and forgottenrealms.wikia, but that's obviously insufficient for something that's supposed to be setting-agnostic (or at least close to it).

[KoyukiTei13]

I'm not sure there's a list of canon D&D herbs, but real life plants are a good place to start. Video games have some good ideas as well - especially since they're fully fleshed out game mechanics (The Elder Scrolls games are a good example of a full-fledged alchemy systems with plants and food strewn all over the province and in shops.)

Skyrim Alchemy Ingredients (http://elderscrolls.wikia.com/wiki/Ingredients_(Skyrim))
Oblivion Alchemy Ingredients (http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Oblivion:Ingredients)

This is from Runescape

This is from Witcher 3 (http://thewitcher3.wiki.fextralife.com/Alchemy+Ingredients)

World of Warcraft is another great source of alchemy recipes and ingredients (http://www.wowhead.com/skill=171/alchemy#recipes), but you'll have to click through a lot of recipes/ingredients to get a good look.

This is from the Neverwinter Nights game (http://neverwinter.gamepedia.com/Resource)


There's always Wikipedia... (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_plants_used_in_herbalism)

And there's the real-world witches of neo-paganism: https://www.pinterest.com/pin/443534263277847937/, Helpful list of common ingredients (http://www.kitchenwiccan.com/witchs-cupboard/apothecary/), etc.

[JackOfAllBuilds]

Progress update: I've been doing some work on the Cookbook... all of the simple items and most of the complex alchemical compounds are listed. I think I'll focus on the list of ingredients next, since I've had to leave a lot of placeholders in the recipes and it's starting to bug me.

If anyone has any thoughts on where I can find canon or semi-canon information on D&D plants etc., that'd be useful. At the moment I'm mostly relying on realmshelps.net and forgottenrealms.wikia, but that's obviously insufficient for something that's supposed to be setting-agnostic (or at least close to it).

You could check out another work for inspiration that I stumbled across on Reddit. Just google herbalism & alchemy v1.2
He goes into great depth on various ingredients and where to find them

[thzfunnymzn]

I'll be downloading this and using it for my jeweler dwarf. Thanks.

[Markoff Chainey]

Hi Ninja Prawn!

I think you did an awesome piece of work here! Congratulations!!

That said, I am a little disappointed that you built your great work on the whacky idea of the PHB, because it destroys the usefulness of any crafting oriented background, IMO.

This "whacky" idea is the one, that per hour spent, you make something worth 1 gp, no matter what skill you have or else.

This is bad because it neither does reflect the principles of reality, nor does it make a good rule for making the game more playable. It utterly destroys any (crafting) ambition of any PC, because after level 3 there is no reason to engage in the mundane making of things anymore because that 8gp per day is virtually nothing... and becomes less than dust once a PC reached lvl 10 or something.

And it does not correlate with the "theatre of mind" that only works when a game rule corresponds with the principles of the real world. In the real world, a master craftsman can make much more money than an apprentice and the big difference is that an apprentice cannot even hope to accomplish certain items.

To make it all worse, there is one spell already in the PHB and a few that you introduce, that totally destroy any effort in mundane crafting...

My advise how to solve that is to change the basic premise of a fixed gp per hour, no matter what.

I can see two ways - one more complicated and one more easy. I think the complicated one is worth it. I will start with that.

-------------------------------
a complicated approach:
You defined certain levels of items... ordinary, compelling, exceptional, masterful and legendary. You could define a gp / day value for each of those... eg.
ordinary - 1gp / hour
compelling - 3 gp / hour
exceptional - 10 gp / hour
masterful - 20 gp / hour
legendary - 50 gp / hour

and then introduce a "barrier" when a Char is able to perform and lead work on one of these items.. eg.
an ordinary item requires someone with proficiency (=apprentice) and can have as many "helpers" (=anybody) as there is people with proficiency. A compelling item requires someone with proficiency and a bonus of 4 cominbined from proficiency bonus and attributes (=journeyman). An exceptional piece of work requires a bonus of 6 and a masterful 8, a legendary of 10. - The maximum number of supporting people equals the bonus, and a maximum of half of these people are required to have proficiency and tools.

You can also try to exert your skill, but doing so requires the leader of the bunch to make a skill roll against:
ordinary - no roll
compelling - 14
exceptional - 16
masterful - 18
legendary - 20
and when the roll fails, the work is lost, only 60% of the materials can be salvaged.


-------------------------------
a simple approach:
The other way, IMO, that gets you to the more or less same point is to multiply the 1gp / hour with prof. bonus...
I am not sure about the best formula to use to make the time worthwhile on a higher lvl, but something like:
gp per hour = ROUND DOWN( (prof bonus^2) /(6 - relevant attribute tool attribute bonus) )
This would amount for an average lvl 1 crafter into 2^2 / (6-2) = 1 gp / hour
up to a legendary craftsman at lvl 20 to 6^2 / (6-5) = 36 gp / hour

While this is hard to implement so that it is not OP in the beginning and does not suck at higher lvls, it is much simpler.

[Ninja_Prawn]

-snip-

Thanks for the thoughts, Markoff. I'm not completely sure I understand your disappointment, though. Is it because crafting speed doesn't increase with ECL? I don't believe that it should; proficiency in 5e is a yes/no question and class levels generally don't make you any better at skills. Besides, I included rules for rushing jobs, which require ability checks to pass (thus becoming easier as your prof bonus goes up). And I provided prestige classes that do make you better at crafting as you level up, via actual class features.

You mention restricting certain items to people who are proficient, but I already did that, via 'complex items'.

You say 8gp/day is nothing to high level characters, but I don't see why that matters. Being a high-level adventurer doesn't necessarily make you a great merchant, and most adventuring crafters aren't going to be in it for the money. Throwing together some siege weapons when you reach the castle walls is the same task whether you're level 3 or level 20; the fact that the level 20 guy could buy a thousand catapults from a workshop with the loose change in his pocket is neither here nor there.

In conclusion, I didn't set out to completely re-write the PHB, because the fewer changes I make to the base rules, the easier it is for random strangers to integrate my stuff into their games. So far, you haven't convinced me to change that approach.

[khadgar567]

small unnecessary question can we get few meal type items in alchemist cookbook like preparing vine made from demon blood for vampire feast

[Ninja_Prawn]

small unnecessary question can we get few meal type items in alchemist cookbook like preparing vine made from demon blood for vampire feast

Yes. It is my intention to provide both mundane and magical meals.

It's hard cover all the bases, but there will at least be some examples that individual DMs can build upon.

[khadgar567]

Yes. It is my intention to provide both mundane and magical meals.

It's hard cover all the bases, but there will at least be some examples that individual DMs can build upon.

thanks prawn

[Markoff Chainey]

... Is it because crafting speed doesn't increase with ECL? I don't believe that it should; proficiency in 5e is a yes/no question and class levels generally don't make you any better at skills.
... Besides, I included rules for rushing jobs, which require ability checks to pass (thus becoming easier as your prof bonus goes up). And I provided prestige classes that do make you better at crafting as you level up, via actual class features.
... You say 8gp/day is nothing to high level characters, but I don't see why that matters. Being a high-level adventurer doesn't necessarily make you a great merchant, and most adventuring crafters aren't going to be in it for the money.
... In conclusion, I didn't set out to completely re-write the PHB, because the fewer changes I make to the base rules, the easier it is for random strangers to integrate my stuff into their games. So far, you haven't convinced me to change that approach.

Hi! Thanks for your answer!

I want to add my thoughts to some points of your reply..
- Proficiency is not just a yes / no thing. When you have no idea about something at all, you are not allowed to add your prof. bonus, true enough... BUT when you know something, you add your prof. Bonus and that scales with character level - from 2 to 6 and the average attribute bonus raises alongside... so a higher character level does make you better at a skill, because you get a higher bonus.
- you provided really thought-through rules for rushing jobs that allow for a 25% higher gain... but they are very risky for just a 25% gain (like it should be IMO). What is not covered in my opinion is simply that a highly skilled carpenter can craft stuff that an apprentice simply cannot due to a lack of skill and by that earn a lot more money. If you think it through, a world where everybody makes 1 gp / hour, no matter how talented and trained, is really weird and would radically different from our imagination. (I know, logic and D&D.. but that brings me to the next point...)
- everybody using the rules and playing the game is a player character. - they share some special characteristics - they have "levels" that are an indication for their power and they have ressources to manage in order to be successful. I totally agree that in the real world being an awesome martial artist does not make you a great merchant... but the only dudes for which we invent and write rules in the d&d universe are player characters. If the rules are not relevant for them, they are not relevant for the entire universe, so to say, because there is nobody to play by them and experience them. If I, as an adventurer, sacrifice some of my skills and money to learn crafting and buy a toolkit, what do I gain? It might not be for the money, as you correctly say, but if any higher level crafting attempt to get me a cool magical item takes years, that is for naught. (I calculated that from lvl 1 - 20 there is an average of 35 adventuring days following the DMG recommendations... stupid, but true.)
- I totally understand your last point, but the main premise of the PHB kills the crafting for me. So any crafting system I will use must change that.

My overall point is - crafting, in order to have a place in the rule-cosmos for PCs - must be (at least somewhat) relevant from lvl 1 throughout to lvl 20 for a player character. Otherwise you could also expell all the crafting rules and all that is needed is a price list for items... (what would be rather sad IMO)

[Ataboiiwhynot]

Out of curiosity are you still working on The Alchemist's Cookbook and the other projects on this thread?

[Ninja_Prawn]

Out of curiosity are you still working on The Alchemist's Cookbook and the other projects on this thread?

Ah, yes, to an extent. The Cookbook was coming along - I'd say maybe 25% done - but then I broke both my wrists and couldn't write for a while. I'm almost recovered now, so I'll get back to this fairly soon, but it won't be done in a hurry. I will keep the thread updated. :smallsmile:

[joshuadoshua]

Lovely! I've been looking for a solid set of crafting rules and else seems to fit very well. Thanks!!

I see references to The Alchemist's Cookbook, Codes of Practice for Castle Builders, and How to Mine like a Dwarf, but I can't seem to find them anywhere? Are these complete?

[Ninja_Prawn]

Sorry, they're on hold. Like, way on hold. I don't even have a working computer to write them on at the moment, let alone any free time.

It should be noted, however, that my crafting rules (somewhat amended) have been incorporated into this book (https://store.magehandpress.com/collections/complete-classes/products/complete-craftsman). Any future supplements I write will most likely be released through Mage Hand Press. The fastest and cheapest way to get them would be via our Patreon, which would only cost $1/month and give you everything we've ever written, plus the right to vote on what books we do next.