Need help understanding the Shadow Plane

[deathbymanga]

anyone here familiar enough with the planes of D&D to help me out? In my setting the borders between the planes has crumbled and everything is bleeding into everything (the planes still exist individually but now chaos is a lot stronger and people can just physically travel to and fro from one plane to another). After learning how the Etherial Plane works I've found that it can't really exist here anymore since it exists between the planes and that space doesn't exist anymore, but what about the Shadow Plane. I see it's definition getting changed so often with each expansion I'm having trouble trying to figure out what it even does in traditional D&D, let alone my own setting

[Ninja_Prawn]

what about the Shadow Plane. I see it's definition getting changed so often with each expansion I'm having trouble trying to figure out what it even does in traditional D&D, let alone my own setting

My understanding at the moment is that Shadowfell ('the plane of shadow') and the Feywild are echoes or reflections of the Prime Material Plane. Every location in the Material Plane has a counterpart in each of the other two, which is twisted into either a shadowy or faerie form. Shadowfell and the Feywild are the two closest planes to the Material Plane (apart from the Ethereal Plane, which is closest to everything by definition), so they would likely be the first to 'bleed through' in your scenario. Fey and Shadow effects should be the most common and visible.

Shadowfell is populated mostly by undead, shadar-kai and evil fey. It looks like a desolate wasteland shrouded in eternal night. It's quite a scary place.

NB: You should be aware that removing the Ethereal Plane has implications for spells like Blink, Etherealness and maybe others, as well as a few monster abilities (particularly ethereal movement).

[deathbymanga]

My understanding at the moment is that Shadowfell ('the plane of shadow') and the Feywild are echoes or reflections of the Prime Material Plane. Every location in the Material Plane has a counterpart in each of the other two, which is twisted into either a shadowy or faerie form. Shadowfell and the Feywild are the two closest planes to the Material Plane (apart from the Ethereal Plane, which is closest to everything by definition), so they would likely be the first to 'bleed through' in your scenario. Fey and Shadow effects should be the most common and visible.

Shadowfell is populated mostly by undead, shadar-kai and evil fey. It looks like a desolate wasteland shrouded in eternal night. It's quite a scary place.

NB: You should be aware that removing the Ethereal Plane has implications for spells like Blink, Etherealness and maybe others, as well as a few monster abilities (particularly ethereal movement).

don't spells like Blink work by bouncing between multiple planes anyway and so wouldn't work even if the ethereal plane somehow survived?

[Ninja_Prawn]

don't spells like Blink work by bouncing between multiple planes anyway and so wouldn't work even if the ethereal plane somehow survived?

That's up to you as the DM. It's just something to be aware of in case your players ask.

"Wait, how come I can't hit the ghost? It can't become ethereal if there is no Ethereal Plane!"

[deathbymanga]

That's up to you as the DM. It's just something to be aware of in case your players ask.

"Wait, how come I can't hit the ghost? It can't become ethereal if there is no Ethereal Plane!"

well intangibility can exist without needing to phase between planes. Gaseous Form gives you resistance to all attacks while intangible.

but considering I'm ASKING FOR HELP about this I'm not doing so well at just doing stuff myself

[KorvinStarmast]

anyone here familiar enough with the planes of D&D to help me out? In my setting the borders between the planes has crumbled and everything is bleeding into everything (the planes still exist individually but now chaos is a lot stronger and people can just physically travel to and fro from one plane to another). After learning how the Etherial Plane works I've found that it can't really exist here anymore since it exists between the planes and that space doesn't exist anymore, but what about the Shadow Plane.

Looks to me like you are trying to play 4e D&D?

The ethereal plane goes back to the idea of ether (http://scienceworld.wolfram.com/physics/Ether.html)which is old alchemy, old science (Aristotle) and old metaphysics, etc.

The Ethereal Plane need not be constrained by the boundaries of the other planes - if the other planes are cracking and bleeding in, as opposed to all unifying into one plane, there will also be also pockets of where the ethereal plane abuts any and all of them. Think of travel between pockets of the ethereal plane as something along the lines of a worm hole: simple earthbound physics doesn't apply. Try not to be too 3d physics about all of this when you deal with the Astral and Etheral planes.
Consider the Ethereal plane, if you have to, as another dimension that abuts all other planes but is parallel to them as well.

I see it's definition getting changed so often with each expansion I'm having trouble trying to figure out what it even does in traditional D&D, let alone my own setting What do you mean by "traditional D&D" in this case?

[deathbymanga]

Looks to me like you are trying to play 4e D&D?

The ethereal plane goes back to the idea of ether (http://scienceworld.wolfram.com/physics/Ether.html)which is old alchemy, old science (Aristotle) and old metaphysics, etc.

The Ethereal Plane need not be constrained by the boundaries of the other planes - if the other planes are cracking and bleeding in, as opposed to all unifying into one plane, there will also be also pockets of where the ethereal plane abuts any and all of them. Think of travel between pockets of the ethereal plane as something along the lines of a worm hole: simple earthbound physics doesn't apply. Try not to be too 3d physics about all of this when you deal with the Astral and Etheral planes.
Consider the Ethereal plane, if you have to, as another dimension that abuts all other planes but is parallel to them as well.
What do you mean by "traditional D&D" in this case?

"traditional D&D" = greyhawk/FR

I don't want to play 4e. I just want to understand what was changed in 4e and what was leftover into 5e

[KorvinStarmast]

"traditional D&D" = greyhawk/FR

I don't want to play 4e. I just want to understand what was changed in 4e and what was leftover into 5e Sorry, I made the ref to 4e due to the "lore" that Mystra got whacked and magic got changed and things Ethereal got buggy.

When I asked "traditional D&D" what I had in mind was "which edition?"
OD&D
1e
2e
3e
3.xe
4e
5e

From your reply, I take it that "NOT 4e" is your "traditional D&D?"
Or is it something older than that?

[Ninja_Prawn]

Sorry, I made the ref to 4e due to the "lore" that Mystra got whacked and magic got changed and things Ethereal got buggy.

When I asked "traditional D&D" what I had in mind was "which edition?"
OD&D
1e
2e
3e
3.xe
4e
5e

From your reply, I take it that "NOT 4e" is your "traditional D&D?"
Or is it something older than that?

I think the word "traditional" is being used in a lore-only sense, rather than a mechanics sense. It's "traditional" in the sense of the traditional 'heroic fantasy' settings and their TSR/WotC-approved cosmologies, as opposed to custom or homebrewed settings, or something like Eberron.

Part of the problem is that the 'approved cosmology' has tended to change with each edition - that's why the OP can't pin down what "traditional" is.

[deathbymanga]

I think the word "traditional" is being used in a lore-only sense, rather than a mechanics sense. It's "traditional" in the sense of the traditional 'heroic fantasy' settings and their TSR/WotC-approved cosmologies, as opposed to custom or homebrewed settings, or something like Eberron.

Part of the problem is that the 'approved cosmology' has tended to change with each edition - that's why the OP can't pin down what "traditional" is.

yes, thank you, that's exactly what I meant

[Taejang]

Because the same location exists in the Material Plane, Shadowfell, and Feywild, if the three planes are coming together, you should decide what that means. Does one version replace the other two? Do all three blend into one new location, with attributes of them all? Can the Shadowfell now directly connect to Feywild, and if so, how does that affect the temperament of both planes' denizens?

Regardless of what you decide there, you'll get creatures (sentient and otherwise) moving back and forth. The Monster Manual entry for Shadow Dragons gives you a great start to understand what this can mean: creatures will start to be changed by their interactions with the other planes. Anything that spends time on the newly-accessible Shadow Plane (or other similar planes, i.e. see the Grodd Demiplane (http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Grodd)) will change, morphing into shadow equivalents. Sentient beings may go through an alignment shift, or develop paranoia, greed, or other personality quirks. Tamed animals may become more wild. Eventually, physical alterations start to take hold. The same process would happen for creatures in contact with the Feywild.

Thematically, I would consider making the different planes "come together" at similar places. Feywild may be easily accessible from old elven forests, while the Underdark may grant easy access to the Shadow Plane. Pockets of each (such as a hermit's grove or the swampy site of an old battle, respectively) may well exist, possibly in close proximity to each other. A volcano may draw the elemental plane of fire, and so the examples go. This kind of theme will help players navigate the changing landscape somewhat, so they aren't always unsure of where to go or what to expect, while still opening the door for bizarre things you as DM may do for plot purposes.

As for the Shadow Plane itself, the 5th edition DMG and MM do have some details to be gleaned, though it is scattered throughout. Look at the entries about planes near the front of the DMG, and read through them all (some mention contrasts with other planes, such as Feywild's description, which helped me internalize the concepts a bit). Check the MM entries for anything shadow related.

Ninja Prawn's advice is valid in my mind (concerning typical occupants and such). Fomorians, shadow dragons, perhaps evil warlocks, and similar beings are also there, though in smaller numbers. Existing monsters, like goblins, can also exist in the Shadow Plane, and are slightly different because of it.

For the "feeling" of the Shadow Plane, I'd go with bleak. Desaturated reflections of the Material Plane, it is intimidating to behold, depressing to live in, and dangerous to traverse. Like the Underdark, characters visiting it should feel afraid, and if there at length they may struggle to sleep well or have other mental problems arise, at your discretion. If you play with the optional rules for sanity/madness, I would definitely make use of them, remembering that Feywild can also induce a kind of madness, thanks to its chaotic nature.

[deathbymanga]

Because the same location exists in the Material Plane, Shadowfell, and Feywild, if the three planes are coming together, you should decide what that means. Does one version replace the other two? Do all three blend into one new location, with attributes of them all? Can the Shadowfell now directly connect to Feywild, and if so, how does that affect the temperament of both planes' denizens?

Regardless of what you decide there, you'll get creatures (sentient and otherwise) moving back and forth. The Monster Manual entry for Shadow Dragons gives you a great start to understand what this can mean: creatures will start to be changed by their interactions with the other planes. Anything that spends time on the newly-accessible Shadow Plane (or other similar planes, i.e. see the Grodd Demiplane (http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Grodd)) will change, morphing into shadow equivalents. Sentient beings may go through an alignment shift, or develop paranoia, greed, or other personality quirks. Tamed animals may become more wild. Eventually, physical alterations start to take hold. The same process would happen for creatures in contact with the Feywild.

Thematically, I would consider making the different planes "come together" at similar places. Feywild may be easily accessible from old elven forests, while the Underdark may grant easy access to the Shadow Plane. Pockets of each (such as a hermit's grove or the swampy site of an old battle, respectively) may well exist, possibly in close proximity to each other. A volcano may draw the elemental plane of fire, and so the examples go. This kind of theme will help players navigate the changing landscape somewhat, so they aren't always unsure of where to go or what to expect, while still opening the door for bizarre things you as DM may do for plot purposes.

the Underdark isn't really a thing in my setting considering the material plane is an entire cosmos that's getting involved here, not just one territory


As for the Shadow Plane itself, the 5th edition DMG and MM do have some details to be gleaned, though it is scattered throughout. Look at the entries about planes near the front of the DMG, and read through them all (some mention contrasts with other planes, such as Feywild's description, which helped me internalize the concepts a bit). Check the MM entries for anything shadow related.

Ninja Prawn's advice is valid in my mind (concerning typical occupants and such). Fomorians, shadow dragons, perhaps evil warlocks, and similar beings are also there, though in smaller numbers. Existing monsters, like goblins, can also exist in the Shadow Plane, and are slightly different because of it.

For the "feeling" of the Shadow Plane, I'd go with bleak. Desaturated reflections of the Material Plane, it is intimidating to behold, depressing to live in, and dangerous to traverse. Like the Underdark, characters visiting it should feel afraid, and if there at length they may struggle to sleep well or have other mental problems arise, at your discretion. If you play with the optional rules for sanity/madness, I would definitely make use of them, remembering that Feywild can also induce a kind of madness, thanks to its chaotic nature.

thanks a lot for your suggestions

[KorvinStarmast]

I'd recommend taking a look at the 3.5e discussion on "how planes interact" at the d20srd.org. If you treat the Ethereal and Material planes as coexistent then it seems to me that your problem goes away, regardless of what all other planes may be doing. It is fair to say that each plane having its own nature, regardless of the level of osmosis or bleed through being experienced between any two planes, would be consistent with your problem statement in the OP.

(Or, I misunderstood your OP).

As I am AFB at the moment, I can't swear that the planes discussion for 5e is the same, but I think it's real close.

[deathbymanga]

I'd recommend taking a look at the 3.5e discussion on "how planes interact" at the d20srd.org. If you treat the Ethereal and Material planes as coexistent then it seems to me that your problem goes away, regardless of what all other planes may be doing. It is fair to say that each plane having its own nature, regardless of the level of osmosis or bleed through being experienced between any two planes, would be consistent with your problem statement in the OP.

(Or, I misunderstood your OP).

As I am AFB at the moment, I can't swear that the planes discussion for 5e is the same, but I think it's real close.

yeah, that bit from d20srd isn't helpful because all it discusses is how someone interacts with the Ethereal Plane when in it. All it says from a cosmic scale is that the Ethereal Plane exists in the same place as the Material Plane. Ok, HOW does it do this? My setting is a very Science Fiction heavy setting, so I kind of want to make sure there's nothing left out for now

[SpawnOfMorbo]

anyone here familiar enough with the planes of D&D to help me out? In my setting the borders between the planes has crumbled and everything is bleeding into everything (the planes still exist individually but now chaos is a lot stronger and people can just physically travel to and fro from one plane to another). After learning how the Etherial Plane works I've found that it can't really exist here anymore since it exists between the planes and that space doesn't exist anymore, but what about the Shadow Plane. I see it's definition getting changed so often with each expansion I'm having trouble trying to figure out what it even does in traditional D&D, let alone my own setting

If you want pre-4e traditional D&D plane lore, 3.5 stuff...

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?299450-afroakuma-s-Planar-Questions-Thread-III!

You can Google the user name and look for the other question threads.

It's a good place to start your planar learning.

[KorvinStarmast]

yeah, that bit from d20srd isn't helpful because all it discusses is how someone interacts with the Ethereal Plane when in it. All it says from a cosmic scale is that the Ethereal Plane exists in the same place as the Material Plane. Ok, HOW does it do this? My setting is a very Science Fiction heavy setting, so I kind of want to make sure there's nothing left out for now Trying to fold physics and n-dimensional space into magical settings with planes that don't exist in our reality is , as you are finding, tricky in terms of world building -- particularly when you begin to get granular. I have always treated the Ethereal Plane as axiomatic: it simply is there, the trick is to find out how to interact with it or creatures there ... which takes magic, not mechanics.

With that said, I have reached the limit of what I can offer you, and will second SpawnofMorbo's pointer to that planar thread family. It's a great place to get understanding about planes.