Is getting a "Wish" and using it in "safemode" by quoting the PHB as RAW a good idea?

[DiceDiceBaby]

I'm new to D&D 5e, but what I found interesting was the "Wish" spell. I've read a lot of threads on these forums with funny stories about it and many hypothetical ones of how to abuse it using the "Simulacrum" spell without the cost, but I'm wondering if anyone out there had a DM that actually allowed someone to make a "Wish" and, instead of asking for something reality warping and allowing the DM to mess with them (ala, an evil genie), actually read the entry of "Wish" in the PHB and was allowed to harmlessly cast an 8th level spell or lower for free.

My idea is that if I were to ever get a "Wish" in my playgroup, I'd probably ask the DM if getting the "Wish" worked the same way as casting the "Wish" spell, as dictated in the PHB. If the DM says yes, then I'd just use the "Wish" in "safemode" or any of the alternates, and ask for a "Simulacrum" of a Warhorse or something (or cast any other 8th level spell or below for free), instead of using the world changing mumbo jumbo and have to write a law school final exam just to make a wish (and still have the DM find some sort of loophole to mess with me).

Any thoughts on this? Has this actually happened to anyone before? Would it kill the spirit and fun of making a wish if I just went all "rules lawyer" on the DM and told him that he couldn't mess with me, since I'm casting the "Wish" in "safemode"? As far as I know, according to the PHB, making a "Wish" only allows a DM to mess with you if you don't opt for any of the "safe" choices and instead ask for something for the DM to interpret, leading to the whole exhaustion and 33% chance of never using it again.

Or is it presupposed that making a wish with a genie/deity/god/demon etc. is completely and mechanically different from casting the "Wish" spell for all intents and purposes?

I wonder what you all think. :smallsmile:

[McNinja]

I'm curious as well. As a DM, I'd be inclined to use "safemode" (and I probably will, since my NPC is the one that lucked into all the wishes). In general I'd never cause a wish to backfire on a player unless the wish was coming from an efreeti/dao/marid or some other slightly dickish deity or powerful entity. To me, a good-aligned wish-giver would follow the letter and intent of the wish-maker; a wish-giver like an efreeti would follow the letter, but their own intent, not the wish-maker's.

As for different levels of "Wish," I'd say there's the Wish Spell as stated in the PHB, a Wish from a greater deity (which would be more powerful), and the magic of the Fates card, which trumps all.

[Ninja_Prawn]

As a DM, I'd be inclined to treat all Wishes as being the same as the spell as written in the PHB. That would include the abilities of genies, boons from deities, rings of three wishes, everything. If the spell can backfire when you're granting your own Wishes, it stands to reason that the risk is inherent to the spell and not dependent on who is granting it.

I'd also assume that there is no 'safe mode' with Wish. This is something I'd warn my players of beforehand. The uses listed in the PHB are safer, and are always guaranteed to work - a more complex wish might fail completely or be granted only partially - but every use of the spell is subject to the monkey paw law.

If there were a Limited Wish spell, I would allow 'textbook' uses of that to be 'safe'.

[Malifice]

My general rule is safemode of wish (8th level or lower spell) is generally OK as long as its not worded exceptionally poorly, and the player isnt attempting to abuse it.

If the player has to ask me if the particular wish counts as abuse, thats generally not a good sign. If its a fair enough use, then fair enough. If its some kind of infinite wish or simulacrum shennanigans, monkey paw happens.

I let players figure that out on their own. Magical lore is full of stories about the dangers of wish and the hubris of spellcasters though...

[Aelyn]

As a DM, if I were to grant players a small-w wish as a quest reward or similar (as opposed to the Wish spell) I would work on the assumption that the entity granting the wish is either casting the spell Wish or a lesser version* of this on their behalf. The exception is godly benefactors, who instead change reality by granting the recipient a 9th level spell slot and the prepared spell Wish, which has to be cast in the following round (or as appropriate)

As such, if they want to go for a "safe" version of Wish, I will allow it only if both the PC and the granting entity would reasonably be aware of the spell that's being mimicked; how else can the PC ensure that the granting entity truly knows what's being asked for? Also, it's not possible for them to grant a Wish which is the equivalent of a spell with a range of Self, as the recipient isn't the caster.

Bear in mind that as the granting entity is casting Wish, they will endeavour to do so in a safe way which suits their own intent. So it's very rare that an Efreet would do an effect which can't be mimicked with a spell, to avoid the chance of losing the spell, damage, STR penalty etc, and they are perfectly within their rights to mimic any spell they like with it. However, if they are persuaded to use a "monkey's paw" version, the Weave is aware on some level that it's being cast on someone else's behalf, so it's not going to backfire directly on the recipient.

It's worth mentioning that I prefer this approach to minimise the chance of a backfiring Wish. An entity likely to try to bend it will be more inclined to use a "safe" version, so any bending of the effect will be a conscious decision on their part. An entity who would be willing to take the chance of a dangerous effect is more likely to be granting the wish out of genuine gratitude, and if they feel the wording of the wish is likely to backfire, would probably mention this to the recipient before casting it. As a DM, I don't like being vindictive to my players just because I can - only if they deserve it!

* Lesser versions would only happen at quite low levels, because it needs to be at a stage where even a 6th or 7th level spell seems a way off. I would probably homerule "Lesser Wish" to be a 7th level spell, which can safely mimic any spell of 6th level or lower with no risk, or can create objets d'art to a value of 5000 gp or do other effects of a similar power leve with a 10% chance of losing the spell (lower odds because it's not as powerful or worldbreaking a spell as Wish itself) However, most entities will be very unlikely to cast it for anything more than mimicking a spell, as they don't want to lose access to it.

[Dalebert]

Ew, I never thought of getting a paladin mount that way. Brilliant! Thanks for the idea. Of course, by 17th level it's probably not as big a deal as it seems.

[endur]

I'm new to D&D 5e, but what I found interesting was the "Wish" spell. I've read a lot of threads on these forums with funny stories about it and many hypothetical ones of how to abuse it using the "Simulacrum" spell without the cost, but I'm wondering if anyone out there had a DM that actually allowed someone to make a "Wish" and, instead of asking for something reality warping and allowing the DM to mess with them (ala, an evil genie), actually read the entry of "Wish" in the PHB and was allowed to harmlessly cast an 8th level spell or lower for free.


If you only get one wish, go for it all.

If you get more than one wish, use all but the last wish in safe mode, and go for it all with the last wish.

Oh, yes, writing a law school exam for your last wish won't help you anyways. Just ask for what you want.

[KorvinStarmast]

I guess that the logical magical item to go with this discussion is the Wish Condom that ensures safe wishing. :smalltongue:

[Dalebert]

That whole 33% chance of never being able to cast Wish again is painful. That's the biggest drawback if you ask me. It's such a nice spell that I'd hate to not be able to cast it anymore. I was just thinking it's also a great fill-in-the-gaps spell for a sorcerer with limited spell selection.

[Vogonjeltz]

I'm new to D&D 5e, but what I found interesting was the "Wish" spell. I've read a lot of threads on these forums with funny stories about it and many hypothetical ones of how to abuse it using the "Simulacrum" spell without the cost, but I'm wondering if anyone out there had a DM that actually allowed someone to make a "Wish" and, instead of asking for something reality warping and allowing the DM to mess with them (ala, an evil genie), actually read the entry of "Wish" in the PHB and was allowed to harmlessly cast an 8th level spell or lower for free.

My idea is that if I were to ever get a "Wish" in my playgroup, I'd probably ask the DM if getting the "Wish" worked the same way as casting the "Wish" spell, as dictated in the PHB. If the DM says yes, then I'd just use the "Wish" in "safemode" or any of the alternates, and ask for a "Simulacrum" of a Warhorse or something (or cast any other 8th level spell or below for free), instead of using the world changing mumbo jumbo and have to write a law school final exam just to make a wish (and still have the DM find some sort of loophole to mess with me).

Any thoughts on this? Has this actually happened to anyone before? Would it kill the spirit and fun of making a wish if I just went all "rules lawyer" on the DM and told him that he couldn't mess with me, since I'm casting the "Wish" in "safemode"? As far as I know, according to the PHB, making a "Wish" only allows a DM to mess with you if you don't opt for any of the "safe" choices and instead ask for something for the DM to interpret, leading to the whole exhaustion and 33% chance of never using it again.

Or is it presupposed that making a wish with a genie/deity/god/demon etc. is completely and mechanically different from casting the "Wish" spell for all intents and purposes?

I wonder what you all think.

Is there any example of wish where it's not referring back to the spell? I'm pretty sure it always does.

In any case, Wish is a means for casting any spell from any class up to 8th level. That's pretty good.

[DiceDiceBaby]

Thanks, everyone, for your input so far! Very amusing and encouraging things to read. :smallwink:

I think we can all agree that "sensible" Wishes are fine and dandy and shouldn't backfire; the only thing I need help establishing is that if the 8th level or below "safe" is free of the monkey paw law (because it is in the PHB), and "sensible" enough, or if the DM could still wiggle around punishing you for it.

Personally, I like the ideas of punishing wishers for excessive hubris and/or scaling down the wish to say, 5th level spells or below.


Is there any example of wish where it's not referring back to the spell? I'm pretty sure it always does.

In any case, Wish is a means for casting any spell from any class up to 8th level. That's pretty good.

That's what I seek to establish with this thread to see if every god/deity/genie granting wishes is actually casting the "Wish" spell (as stipulated in the PHB) on the behalf of the wisher. If it is, then things like "Simulacrum" would obey the wisher, not the being casting the spell, and if so, then it also implies that, according to the PHB, the wish cannot be meddled with (though, of course, the DM's final word is law). Perhaps the fact that this idea seems alien to some people implies that most people who get a wish immediately opt for the reality warping option rather than read the rules about wishing before making an educated choice. :smalltongue:


Ew, I never thought of getting a paladin mount that way. Brilliant! Thanks for the idea. Of course, by 17th level it's probably not as big a deal as it seems.

Personally, if I were ever given a "Wish" at low levels, this is probably what I'd ask for (specifically worded as: "I wish for a Simulacrum of a Warhorse"). If we go by the spirit of the thread, I could theoretically ask for an Elephant instead, but as it has a CR of 4, I'm probably tempting the DM into messing with me (but again, the PHB says this only happens if I ask for something other than an 8th level or below spell cast on my behalf, which in this case, it would be).

As a mount, it should make a big deal at lower levels; while it will only have half of it's hitpoints and level, if you're never going to use it in combat anyway, you have something to ride and carry your gear, AND, because it's a Simulacrum, it will look and feel like an actual Warhorse... but will never disobey your orders (unlike regular mounts), as it will be totally obedient to you. Might be a fair and practical, if rather boring, thing to "Wish" for.

Then there's wishing for a War Elephant... :smallcool:

Any other thoughts on the matter? Basically, this thread is the antithesis of every other normal "Wish" thread: instead of thinking of ways to break the spell in two using wording or complicated cloning methods, we're just here to think of "fair" ways and wishes to use it by 1) using the PHB as reference so that it can be "safely" cast and 2) not inviting the DM to mess with us by making sure the wishes themselves are non-abusive, but useful.

[MaxWilson]

I think we can all agree that "sensible" Wishes are fine and dandy and shouldn't backfire; the only thing I need help establishing is that if the 8th level or below "safe" is free of the monkey paw law (because it is in the PHB), and "sensible" enough, or if the DM could still wiggle around punishing you for it.

You can never learn the answer to that question by asking the Internet. Only the DM can make promises that are binding on the DM.

Trying to play rules-lawyer with your DM is generally a bad idea, and bringing the opinions of random strangers on the Internet into a discussion with your DM is an even worse idea. Even if it works due to herd instinct on the DM's part, it's still a jerk move.

[DiceDiceBaby]

You can never learn the answer to that question by asking the Internet. Only the DM can make promises that are binding on the DM.

Trying to play rules-lawyer with your DM is generally a bad idea, and bringing the opinions of random strangers on the Internet into a discussion with your DM is an even worse idea. Even if it works due to herd instinct on the DM's part, it's still a jerk move.

See? I'm so new to this game, I don't even know if it's proper etiquette to ask this question online. But thanks for the heads up! I tend to play rules-lawyer in a lot of board games, so I guess I'll have to change my disposition, then.

[MaxWilson]

I would probably homerule "Lesser Wish" to be a 7th level spell, which can safely mimic any spell of 6th level or lower with no risk *snip*

For historical reasons, you should call it "Limited Wish." Beware though: that spell there is potentially more game-breaking than Wish is, in a way similar to Magical Secrets. There are a number of spells from other class lists (Antilife Shell, Raise Dead/Revivify, Circle of Power) which become much more attractive to a wizard when you don't have to use a 9th level spell slot to cast them.

[Dalebert]

I don't know why you'd want a simulacrum of a warhorse when the creature from the spell is already loyal and telepathically connected and all that fun stuph. More importantly, it can heal naturally unlike a simulacrum which is just ticking down toward death and costs something like 100gp / hp to fix. Don't get me started on the absurdity of that price point. It's usually cheaper to just make a new simulacrum altogether unless it has 10hp or less.

[Vogonjeltz]

That's what I seek to establish with this thread to see if every god/deity/genie granting wishes is actually casting the "Wish" spell (as stipulated in the PHB) on the behalf of the wisher. If it is, then things like "Simulacrum" would obey the wisher, not the being casting the spell, and if so, then it also implies that, according to the PHB, the wish cannot be meddled with (though, of course, the DM's final word is law). Perhaps the fact that this idea seems alien to some people implies that most people who get a wish immediately opt for the reality warping option rather than read the rules about wishing before making an educated choice.

Ah, I see.

Ok, in a rules sense, anytime it is referred to as casting the spell, or says just wish like that in italics, it's referring to the spell in the PHB (unless it literally says otherwise). So it would be subject to all those rules.

If your character were getting a free wish cast by another entity, then if it used wish to cast simulacrum, the simulacrum would obey the caster, not your character.

Wish doesn't go haywire unless you make a request beyond the scope of the given examples. Given the extreme downsides of using it to do anything beyond duplicate a spell, I would tend to say it's not worth considering for those purposes unless one had literally no other options available and death was imminent.


Don't get me started on the absurdity of that price point. It's usually cheaper to just make a new simulacrum altogether unless it has 10hp or less.

Well, it would be worth it as long as you have to repair less than 150 hit points (and had used the actual simulacrum spell rather than using wish. Less worth it if the creature was a spellcaster, as you would probably want the spell slots from a new copy.

[Scuronotte]

Thanks, everyone, for your input so far! Very amusing and encouraging things to read. :smallwink:

I think we can all agree that "sensible" Wishes are fine and dandy and shouldn't backfire; the only thing I need help establishing is that if the 8th level or below "safe" is free of the monkey paw law (because it is in the PHB), and "sensible" enough, or if the DM could still wiggle around punishing you for it.

Personally, I like the ideas of punishing wishers for excessive hubris and/or scaling down the wish to say, 5th level spells or below.



Any other thoughts on the matter? Basically, this thread is the antithesis of every other normal "Wish" thread: instead of thinking of ways to break the spell in two using wording or complicated cloning methods, we're just here to think of "fair" ways and wishes to use it by 1) using the PHB as reference so that it can be "safely" cast and 2) not inviting the DM to mess with us by making sure the wishes themselves are non-abusive, but useful.

I can understand that another creature, scroll, or Deck of Many Things bestowing a wish spell can be dangerous depending on the wording or the desired benefit. The damage sustained by the wish user is understandable, but never being able to "cast" the Wish spell seems extreme and unnecessary. Suppose the wisher is not a caster or doesn't gain the benefit of learning the Wish spell. How can you forbid a character ever from gaining benefit from a Wish spell, especially if earned through skill & survival?

It should be a case by case matter, in addition to the judgment of the DM.

[Aelyn]

For historical reasons, you should call it "Limited Wish." Beware though: that spell there is potentially more game-breaking than Wish is, in a way similar to Magical Secrets. There are a number of spells from other class lists (Antilife Shell, Raise Dead/Revivify, Circle of Power) which become much more attractive to a wizard when you don't have to use a 9th level spell slot to cast them.
Oh, I agree that it would be a really powerful spell if a PC had it. That's a reason I didn't specify any class spell lists for it - it's strictly an NPC-only spell, and should only be used as a way to give a Wish-style effect as a quest reward to parties of level 8 or lower without it breaking the game. By level 9, PCs can cast 5th-level spells, so the ability to mimic a 6th-level spell is somewhat underwhelming as a quest reward - it can still be done, but by that point I'd be tempted to give them the standard Wish.

I guess the one exception is that a caster could use Wish to add Limited Wish to their class spell list, at a 33% chance of permanently losing the ability to cast the real thing.

[Spore]

Most of DM's should be relatively fine with using Wishes to restablish the status quo as long as you are not abusing it, e.g. after spending the king's fortune simply wishing for the treasure to reappear. My Pathfinder Halfelf rolled a Goblin on his Reincarnation table and there it is even stated in the entry of Reincarnate that a Wish can reinstate the character with his original body.

Other than that a DM should know that people get greedy and creative when presented with a single casting of a Wish spell, especially if they have almost nothing to loose, i.e. aren't happy wealthy protectors of peace but the people that risked their lives moments ago for a bunch of nomads protecting them from an Ifrit Genie.

And honestly I would expect SOME kind of bigger reward for formulating out a Wish spell decently. I don't want to break games but I really like the flavor of wish spells, even minor ones.