OOTS #1017 - The Discussion Thread

[The Giant]

New comic is up.

[Quild]

Ah crap, they can enter.

Ah crap, they can change their High Priest whenever they need.

[DDRNick]

daaaaang that isn't looking good.

[Ellye]

That's a lot of vampires.

[enq]

So does Roy count as her bodyguard?

(also, hereby*)

[AbyssStalker]

Oh boy! Now the (former) HPoH's malicious intent is undeniable! Come on priests, blast away!

And now we might see what the other bodyguards can do.

Also whats up with the "seriously" look on the vampire to the far right, lol. Looks like someones offended they weren't picked to be HPoH

[greatscott]

That is a lot of charges in the staff!

Soo many vampires...We need some high level clerics to clean things up a bit. Where might we find some?!?

G

[Fitzclowningham]

That's 11 vampires, including the big guy outside. Looks like the staff had plenty of charges.

[Lord Torath]

Are there any penalties for bringing someone other than the High Priest into the nave? Can the other clerics join in now?

Very appropriate thread smiley, I must say.

[Nemeean_lion]

I wonder how they will trick the priests and the other gods regarding the domination of the dwarves.

[Syldar]

Looks like generic female dwarf stone creed priest #1 is over to the right.

Also, "Frontarchy" is now a word in my book.

Edit: First page! Yay! *Throws handful of confetti.*

[Toper]

Oh, man! Now we have to call him the fHPoH all the time!

Or the PoH formerly known as the HPoH. Maybe we should develop some sort of symbol.

[Itrogash]

Oh my. That's a lot of vampire clerics.
I wonder how many levels new HPoH has. If Roy is still a bodyguard, he better start slashing her right away.
Also, if HPoH is not HPoH anymore, how do we call him now?

[TheMiningDwarf]

I'm not sure the other vampire clerics count under the protection thing. Wonder if the other clerics are gonna join in and have an undead BBQ yet?

[Syldar]

Durkula/Durkoff/Lurky Corpsewhiskers/Darkon... need I go on?

[Nemeean_lion]

Oh, man! Now we have to call him the fHPoH all the time!

Or the PoH formerly known as the HPoH. Maybe we should develop some sort of symbol.

No need to be so formal. Durkula will suffice. :smallamused:

[Unregistered]

Well, I expect the other priests to act now...

[Hamste]

That's 11 vampires, including the big guy outside. Looks like the staff had plenty of charges.

It could just be multiple corpses touched like animate dead couldn't it?

[Caustic Soda]

It could just be multiple corpses touched like animate dead couldn't it?

No. Zombies don't have long canines or glowing red eyes.

[Tundar]

Good thing Roy has great cleavage :D

[Larrx]

Well then . . . the staff had more charges left than I anticipated . . .

[mikeejimbo]

Huh, I had been assuming that they'd use the loophole of "teleporting away isn't passing through the arches".

[Darkohaku]

Well, I was wondering where the other priest have been...know I know more of the Church of Hel.

p.s: Dominated vampires count has priest for the church? we know that the former HPoH was dominated until Malak was killed.

[Pyrous]

So that's why Durkula didn't bother getting the staff back, it is probably empty.

[Draconi Redfir]

while i doubt the vampires would be dumb enough to start attacking the other high preists, this does feel like an appropriate time for the other bodyguards to start stepping in.

Way i'd see it they'd avoid conbat until some of the vampires start to attack, otherwise they'll all just taker up posistions next to their respective clerics. only the new HOPH is exempt from the being attacked thing after all.

[Hamste]

No. Zombies don't have long canines or glowing red eyes.

I'm not saying it is animate dead I mean it might be able to target more than one vampire to be like animate dead can target more than one corpse.

[KorvinStarmast]

1. Staff of many charges.
2. Just how much time did Durkula have to track down all of the stone clerics and ushers without attracting Roy's attention for the delay of getting into the nave?
3. The inane conversation with Veldrina's bodyguard (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0996.html) and the exposition/pontificating by various deities took how long? (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0999.html)

Once again smells of "DM Kraft" (in reference to company who makes cheese of dubious origin)

Oh well, the plot will move along next week.

[foobar1969]

Even when the moot is temporarily suspended, even though slaughtering and desecrating the entire host of ushers is technically allowed, bringing additional church members into the nave with hostile intent ought to be a violation of the rules.

Hmm... perhaps they're only there to remove their errant bodyguard. A purely internal church matter during a break might be legal. But if a single one lays a finger on a different high priest, a dozen turn undeads come crashing down on them. For starters.

[DaggerPen]

And here I'd had my money on "allowed to leave with usher escort".

This, uh, this twist is suitably more dramatic. Also - oh crap .

[The gF]

How did they raise all those vampires so fast? Did Durkon/HPoH ever learn Malack's insta-vamp spell that skips the three days in the ground? How would he be able to cast it that many times in a day?

Edit: Oh, right, it was in the staff. That really is a lot of charges.

[Lkctgo]

Seems a bit implausible. So he brings a full contingent (assuming he teleports himself and 5 other vamps) to the dwarven lands... and they have no teleport protection?

[Caustic Soda]

I'm not saying it is animate dead I mean it might be able to target more than one vampire to be like animate dead can target more than one corpse.

Oh. That could make sense, yeah.

[Kurald Galain]

How did they raise all those vampires so fast?
A typical staff has 50 charges, and a typical spell takes a standard action to cast. So even assuming the staff was half depleted, it could easily raise twelve vampires in slightly over one minute.

What takes more time is capturing and draining twelve people; although of course you get the first vamp to help you creating the second, then you have two vamps to help you creating the third, and so forth until you work your way up to a giant vamp.

Yeah, high-level magic is scary like that. So are vampires.


Seems a bit implausible. So he brings a full contingent (assuming he teleports himself and 5 other vamps) to the dwarven lands... and they have no teleport protection?
What, you mean like Cloister? That's Dorukan's personal spell, nobody in the dwarven lands knows it.

Dimensional Lock (as in, Redcloak's library) covers only a 20' area. It's plausible that the Dwarven High Temple is dimensionally locked, but you deal with that by teleporting next to it and walking inside.

[Rebarth]

...
I think, finally, after so long of reading this comic, that I begin to develop an understanding of what the actual outline of it's overall story.
This is a story about how a group of 6 dysfunctional, wisecracking, 4th-wall breaking group of stick figures, are in charge of the extinction of everything and everyone on the entire planet.
Just a hunch.

[Quild]

This will surely raise an issue with the number of bodyguards. Will we have a ranged battle within clerics and vampires?
I guess the vampires can't pick and choose clerics to destroy in order to turn the vote. Even if they are not bodyguards, it would probably be Hel violating the rules in a very bad manner.

Can the bodyguards be changed and Roy be prevented of any intervention?



Oh, man! Now we have to call him the fHPoH all the time!
I refuse to use "Durkula". I'm going to go with this. Thanks.

I'm surprised that fHPoH dropped his title though, he seemed very proud of it.

[Psyren]

Seems a bit implausible. So he brings a full contingent (assuming he teleports himself and 5 other vamps) to the dwarven lands... and they have no teleport protection?

You mean warding the entire dwarven country from teleportation? That seems more plausible to you?

[Forikroder]

im confused wasnt it a rule they could only have one cleric from each god?

[Kryztyfyr]

Wow...one vampire is a big enough threat! The fight to the Dwarven Lands is going to be epic against that many vampires! :smallamused:

--Christopher Chance

[Vendanna]

This will surely raise an issue with the number of bodyguards. Will we have a ranged battle within clerics and vampires?
I guess the vampires can't pick and choose clerics to destroy in order to turn the vote. Even if they are not bodyguards, it would probably be Hel violating the rules in a very bad manner.

Can the bodyguards be changed and Roy be prevented of any intervention?



I refuse to use "Durkula". I'm going to go with this. Thanks.

I'm surprised that fHPoH dropped his title though, he seemed very proud of it.

Before the issue appears, the surplus of vampires could probably go alongside Dead Durkon teleporting back?

[Toper]

Interesting that these vamps are apparently priests of Hel now, despite not being dwarves (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0946.html). Maybe the default is for the vampire spirit to be provided by the deity of the siring vampire, or something.

I wonder whether Roy's bodyguard job applies to the person or the title? Though even if he's the bodyguard of the generic HPoH, Durkula can maybe just fire him, leaving poor unappreciated Belkar to try and save the day by bowling over a queue of vampire high priests. Probably not gonna work. :)

[Grey Watcher]

Y'know, techically, the only priests allowed in are the high priest and his/her two bodyguards. I think all those vampires except the new High Priestess are fair game from some holy wrath smackdown (maybe, we've established that the rules of the Godsmoot are kinda haphazard and not exactly thought out).

[Quild]

im confused wasnt it a rule they could only have one cleric from each god?

One cleric + two bodyguards. That could be up to 3 clerics. But only one as a representative.


Before the issue appears, the surplus of vampires could probably go alongside Dead Durkon teleporting back?
We know the orb can teleport 8 creatures (at least). Maybe it can teleport more.

I suppose that what will happen now is:
New HPoH declares that 2 of the vampires are her bodyguards.
Former HPoH teleports with the other vampires (maybe one will remain).
Roy is asked to immediately leave the Godsmoot or be destroyed.

[CoffeeIncluded]

Okay I think this is the right time to screw the rules.

[Ivrytwr]

That's a lot of vampires.
Hel is playing fast and loose. Something's gotta give ...
Going to go reread the prophesy that got Durkon kicked out.
Thanks Giant.

[Sith_Happens]

So if I'm understanding the Godsmoot rules correctly, Roy mists the new high priest while the other vampires are intruders and therefore fair game for anyone else in the room.

ROUND 2, FIGHT!

[Forikroder]

One cleric + two bodyguards. That could be up to 3 clerics. But only one as a representative.

when Durkon first tried to enter (introduced as a cleric of Thor) the dude said that the representative of Thor was already there and no more can enter

[AchtungNight]

If I were GMing this session, my players would be calling Foul, BS, and "Killer GM!" about now. Or I would, if I were a player and my GM did this.

Of course I can say that about a lot of OotS comics. That's the advantage of having your own freedom to tell a story.

I can hardly wait to see how Roy handles this situation. Keep up the good work, Rich.

[GAAD]

Thank you, Durkula, for proving Redcloak right.

:xykon: I have a crown.
:redcloak: And it sure is shiny, sir.
:xykon: So why shouldn't I be a Lord?
:redcloak: I suppose there have been worse forms of government than Crownocracy.

[Porthos]

1) "Why? I've never met you before" is a VERY nice touch. Bravo.

2) Loophole Abuse at its finest!

Ushers get free reign of the entire complex. Well, show me the Godsmoot rule that says an usher stops being an usher simply because said usher converts to another God and/or it gains a template.

...

That's right. You can't show me that rule, now can you. :smalltongue:

Bet more than a couple of quatloos that's gonna be, ahem, raised as an objection and that, more or less will be the answer.

Of course, they are free to be attacked by others since, as ushers, they aren't protected by the rules of the Godsmoot.

But, hey you want to declare Open War on the Church of Hel, be my guest. I'm sure that will work out quite well for the attacking parties. :smallamused:

No, this is a magnificent plan. One without an obvious counter by the priests and their bodyguards.

[Messenger]

Even if the rules and regulations governing the Godsmoot have proven to have loopholes (such as a bodyguard being able to attack their own cleric), it's a safe bet even without seeing the full list and details of those laws that whatever conventions protecting the attendees there are- including the newly vamped and now marauding followers of Hel- no longer apply, even according to themselves. All the clerics in attendance, even the most Lawful ones, are not going to hold back now in the face of full on treachery and attack.

The real question is: How are they going to stop Durkula from 'porting to the dwarven homelands or at least be able to stymie his plans should he get on his way? Even if it's likely that the said clerics there- which includes some very high level ones- are able to contain the vampires, won't Durkula be gone in a flash upon activation of the orb?

[hroþila]

So if I'm understanding the Godsmoot rules correctly, Roy mists the new high priest while the other vampires are intruders and therefore fair game for anyone else in the room.

ROUND 2, FIGHT!
It's likely that Roy has no place in the Godsmoot now that Durkon has stepped down, and that both would have to leave immediately.

As for Durkon's lackeys entering the hall, it might well be a breach of procedure. But perhaps the other clerics will be reluctant to enforce the rules right away, as that would definitely make things escalate (think of it as a Cold War scenario, where many minor incidents didn't lead to nuclear war even though one side or the other would technically have been justified to retaliate). Or perhaps some of the rules of the Godsmoot are on stand-by right now, as the vote has been called off. And maybe Durkon's resignation makes things more nebulous.

Or, equally likely, a fight is about to break out to cover Durkon's escape.

[Bulldog Psion]

:eek: Well, there goes the neighborhood, in a big way.

This is getting exciting. :smallcool: Though it does look like the Order may have triggered a mass extinction event.

As for the name -- I'll just continue calling him Lurky Corpsewhiskers. Belkar obviously took maximum ranks in (Craft) Superbly Snide Nickname, too. :smallsmile:

[Breccia]

Good news! The staff is out of charges!

[talkamancer]

Oh, Poo. That is all.

[Sesharan]

I wonder if all that is from the staff. Durkula was researching Protection from Daylight an awful lot, after all... who's to say that he didn't also research Advance Vampirization and prepare it a few times? Sounds like a third- or fourth- level spell to me, he could have a half-dozen copies easily with as little fighting as he's had to do. And clearly it was worth it.

[Kish]

Oh boy! Now the (former) HPoH's malicious intent is undeniable! Come on priests, blast away!
I'm sorry, you were under the impression that the other priests weren't attacking the High Priest of Hel because while Hel was ranting about how she would be Queen of the Northern Pantheon in the next world and give Thor's high priestess to Garm for a chew toy, they thought maybe the High Priest of Hel lacks malicious intent?

No, the High Priest of Hel would never have been welcomed into a paladin convention, but that's not relevant here. The rules continue to be designed not to favor or disfavor any particular alignment, and so no one with the wisdom to become a High Priest is surprised by the news that the Goddess of Death has no problems turning people into undead creatures against their will, or that Fenris wants to destroy everything and piss on their graves, for that matter.

[dartom]

Heh, interesting twist.

I must say, however, that I'm not really looking forward to this part of the storyline. I really hope that I will be proven wrong, but so far not-Durkon is shaping up to be a very flat character (bit ironic, considering the same was true about Durkon), and I do not think that the character will be able to carry the weight of being the main villain of the book. We'll see, I guess.

[EmperorSarda]

That is a lot of clerics to kill in so short a time. Between throwing Belkar off the roof and entering the nave, Durkon must have been incredibly efficient with his time.

[Porthos]

All the clerics in attendance, even the most Lawful ones, are not going to hold back now in the face of full on treachery and attack.

Really? How much do you want to bet on that? Figuratively speaking of course.

After all, there are A LOT of priests present that who serve gods that want to end the world.

Opening fire on the Church of Hel pretty much starts Armageddon in the Godsmoot. And stopping that from happening is kinda the whole point of these moots. If one recalls.

Sure, someone who is triggerhappy might be tempted. But as long as the Church of Hel doesn't initiate hostilities, and so far they have attacked NO ONE covered under the protection of the Moot (unless it was in self-defense), I suspect that the folks present are just going to have to sit back and accept it.

If only there was a team of Heroes who might be available to take charge of the situation.

If only. :smallwink:

[Shining Wrath]

Frontarchy is the only logical way to run a church whose clergy are vampires. :smallsmile:

I count 10 vampires entering the room, one of whom is the freshly anointed HPoH, and therefore presumably immune to attack unless she attacks someone else. The vampires don't seem to be attacking anyone, though. And she can probably dub two more her bodyguards. Oddly, I don't see the gal from 996. And we know there's a vampire Goliath out front greeting Belkar. So I'm calling that 12 vampires, plus Vamptor makes 13.

VampDurkon has spent freely of the charges from his staff - not surprising, as the goal has been the destruction of the world at which point unused charges would be wasted. And that may account for why VampDurkon no longer cares whether or not he's carrying it.

And Roy speaks to VampDurkon as though he's a stranger; I do believe he's got it.

[Breccia]

I wonder if all that is from the staff. Durkula was researching Protection from Daylight an awful lot, after all... who's to say that he didn't also research Advance Vampirization?

Nothing, but if too many game-changingly important things happen when our back is turned in a row (see also: Belkar survives) I'd be concerned. To me, that'd defy the narrative style set by literally a thousand strips before, where even the Girdle of Questionable Gender was pre-known.

Also, Durkula probably really wants his upper-level spell slots right now, and I'd be very surprised if Wakey Wakey Vampire Eggs and Bakey was anything lower than 5th level, same as Raise Dead.

Also, I'm curious what the other clerics on hand will do now that Durkula is a valid target. How many of them prepared Grand Circle of Death Star Smite this morning? Or, how many of them will just open a window?

[Grey Pilgrim]

Oh my, this is way worse than I have imagined. You can say I did not see that many vampires coming :smalleek:

[OmnivorousOgre]

Even if Roy is relieved of his duties as a bodyguard, he isn't allowed to leave as per the rules. Don't know how he'll handle this.

[Forikroder]

Ushers get free reign of the entire complex. Well, show me the Godsmoot rule that says an usher stops being an usher simply because said usher converts to another God and/or it gains a template.


yes there is a rule that saids only one cleric of each god is allowed, if they stop being neutral and join a church there not an usher anymore

[Monstar3014]

Great! Now all Roy, as hpoh bodyguard, has to do is slay the new high priest of Hel before Ms. "Front"ula advocates her position or Durkula gets back. Hel loses her rep and her vote and the world is saved!

Step 2 Profit.

[Shining Wrath]

im confused wasnt it a rule they could only have one cleric from each god?

Right you are. VampDurkon abdicated his position as High Priest in favor of the frontrunner. There's only one high priest of Hel in the room.

No rule seems to state that additional clergy cannot attend - probably a bodyguard is also a cleric from time to time.

[hroþila]

Even if Roy is relieved of his duties as a bodyguard, he isn't allowed to leave as per the rules. Don't know how he'll handle this.
I doubt it. "No attendee" only comes after "all who have a formal role" in the previous speech balloon, and Roy just stopped having a formal role.

In all probability, the rule merely exists as a plausible way to make sure all those high-level clerics and bodyguards, especially Veldrina and Wrecan, have to stay behind while the Order goes about its merry business of gate-shattering hijinks.

[Porthos]

Right you are. VampDurkon abdicated his position as High Priest in favor of the frontrunner. There's only one high priest of Hel in the room.

No rule seems to state that additional clergy cannot attend - probably a bodyguard is also a cleric from time to time.

Exactly this. And even if "Durkon" could be attacked, A) he's behind the shield and about to teleport out. And B) there's the minor matter of Starting Armageddon that I keep going on about.

Again, some might be tempted. But, on the flip, there still are A LOT of priests who will rally to the Church of Hel should their members be attacked.

[Emperordaniel]

Vampire horde. Never a Good thing.

[Porthos]

Even if Roy is relieved of his duties as a bodyguard, he isn't allowed to leave as per the rules. Don't know how he'll handle this.

Two words:

:roy: "I quit."

That should just about cover it. :smalltongue:

...

A little more? Fine. He no longer has a formal role in the moot, and therefore can now leave. In fact, he probably HAS to leave.

The question is: Does he quit or does he get fired first. :smalltongue:

[Grey Pilgrim]

yes there is a rule that saids only one cleric of each god is allowed, if they stop being neutral and join a church there not an usher anymore

But they were never neutral, they worshipped an non-personified god/principle. Starting worshipping another isn't going to change their usher status.

[DigoDragon]

If the remaining priests here can't handle a few vampire spawns...

...oh wait, Elan's Rule of Drama says they can't. Dunn dunn dunnnnnn! :smalltongue:

[Forikroder]

But they were never neutral, they worshipped an non-personified god/principle. Starting worshipping another isn't going to change their usher status.

yes it is, there god had no stake in the godsmoot so they were allowed, there new god does have a stake so there not allowed

only one cleric of hel is allowed in the godsmoot just like every other god

[Kish]

Two words:

:roy: "I quit."

That should just about cover it. :smalltongue:

...

A little more? Fine. He no longer has a formal role in the moot, and therefore can now leave. In fact, he probably HAS to leave.

The question is: Does he quit or does he get fired first. :smalltongue:
I'm more wondering how someone who cannot turn into mist or fly is going to physically get past that barrier at the top of the stairs.

(But when I say "wondering," I mean "expecting a one-panel explanation, possibly involving Veldrina casting Wind Walk," not "preparing to shriek PLOT HOLE.")

[happycrow]

"You can't leave all those vampires in here, this is against the rules!"

"Don't be foolish. Why would I want to do that? They're coming with me."

((Vampires enter through the shell and teleport away))

[Emperordaniel]

Aww, I just recognized the usher who showed Roy and Wrecan into the meeting hall. Now I feel sad. :smallfrown:

[Porthos]

Let me try to address the concerns about the ushers getting converted a different way.

IF there was a rule prohibiting the ushers from converting to another faith during the proceedings upon pain of losing usher status..... Then "Durkon" wouldn't have done what he did. The fact that he did do it strongly suggests that it wasn't a contingency thought about and/or the situation never came up.

Rules do tend to be made rules to address people Playing Unfair after the fact, after all. All this says is that no one has tried something like this before. Hardly an unreasonable idea.

Furthermore, the comic was quite blatant about how the ushers had (paraphrasing) "no one to speak for them and no one to care about their fate" (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0995.html).

Finally, we've had MONTHS to look at this plotline. How many of us said "Well, even if the ushers are all converted, they won't be able to interfere with the proceedings because surely there's a rule against it." Not many from what I recall. How many of us suggested that they wouldn't be allowed into the meeting room anymore? Again, not many from what I recall.

So if we who had months to raise this objection beforehand didn't, I'm willing to cut the folks at the Godsmoot a little slack for not seeing this contingency. Sure, they can address it for future Godsmoots....

... if there are any, of course. :smalltongue:

[Valynie]

Since the Godsmoot is in norse lands , it seems logical that most ushers were norse in origin .
so being undead , they would indeed become priests of Hel .
The question is which ones were not norse .

[ericgrau]

It is a bad day to be lawful.

[ErebusVonMori]

Any easier way for Durkula to neutralise Roy is to try and take him with him using the orb.

[Bulldog Psion]

Oddly, I don't see the gal from 996. And we know there's a vampire Goliath out front greeting Belkar. So I'm calling that 12 vampires, plus Vamptor makes 13.


I believe she's there, right next to the new HPoH. About to step into a square of sunlight, specifically. You can't see the part of her hair that's tied back in a bun, but the rest of her hair is the same and she otherwise looks similar other than turning gray.

[PoeticDwarf]

Well if they can kill that big bunch of vampires there is no high priest of hell in the room anymore.

So yeah, it is looking great now

[Forikroder]

Let me try to address the concerns about the ushers getting converted a different way.

IF there was a rule prohibiting the ushers from converting to another faith during the proceedings upon pain of losing usher status..... Then "Durkon" wouldn't have done what he did. The fact that he did do it strongly suggests that it wasn't a contingency thought about and/or the situation never came up.

Rules do tend to be made rules to address people Playing Unfair after the fact, after all. All this says is that no one has tried something like this before. Hardly an unreasonable idea.

Furthermore, the comic was quite blatant about how the ushers had (paraphrasing) "no one to speak for them and no one to care about their fate" (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0995.html).

Finally, we've had MONTHS to look at this plotline. How many of us said "Well, even if the ushers are all converted, they won't be able to interfere with the proceedings because surely there's a rule against it." Not many from what I recall. How many of us suggested that they wouldn't be allowed into the meeting room anymore? Again, not many from what I recall.

So if we who had months to raise this objection beforehand didn't, I'm willing to cut the folks at the Godsmoot a little slack for not seeing this contingency. Sure, they can address it for future Godsmoots....

... if there are any, of course. :smalltongue:

the rules are clear though, ONE cleric per faith there are currently, bare minimum, 3 clerics of hel

[Porthos]

the rules are clear though, ONE cleric per faith there are currently, bare minimum, 3 clerics of hel

No, one representative who speaks for the church is allowed in. As long as none of those other vampires claim to speak for the Church of Hel, they can stay thanks to being ushers.

Loophole Abuse is called ABUSE for a reason. :smallwink:

[Forikroder]

No, one representative who speaks for the church is allowed in. As long as none of those other vampires claim to speak for the Church of Hel, they can stay thanks to being ushers.

Loophole Abuse is called ABUSE for a reason. :smallwink:

no the rules are clear http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0994.html

ONE CLERIC PER GOD

[foobar1969]

But they were never neutral, they worshipped an non-personified god/principle. Starting worshipping another isn't going to change their usher status.
Of all the people in the world, a group of high priests is among the most likely to:


believe that personhood is in the soul, not in the body
understand that a vampire is a separate being from the body's former occupant

Those vampires are not (and never were) ushers of the Stone Temple, they are priests (and perhaps templars) of Hel, wearing usher outfits.

[chrestomancy]

IF there was a rule prohibiting the ushers from converting to another faith during the proceedings upon pain of losing usher status..... Then "Durkon" wouldn't have done what he did. The fact that he did do it strongly suggests that it wasn't a contingency thought about and/or the situation never came up.


FYI I'm not exactly disagreeing with you.

First, Vampire status is a thorny issue (or at least badly staked out!) There's likely different opinions as to if a Vampirised usher is still the same person, and therefore subject to the same rights, rules and exemptions as their living versions were. It could be argued that new vampires should not be treated as the original person, particularly when those arguing are high level Clerics who really should know a fair bit about the undead.

But that's not sufficient, as there are other factors, as you point out. Would it be wise to start a fight with a Priest of Hel, even with arguably no right to be there, within the godsmoot? At the very least, a high priest who did this risks an "enemy" priest taking it the wrong way, and the rules dissolving, breaking the moot. There will be no flag raised - "Rules Broken" - when the letter of the law has not been met - just a dozen opinions that may differ. So initially, shock and fear will keep everyone from acting. Lawful Good priests will start to make the case for the excess vampires to be valid targets, at least to flag to their Evil counterparts that attacks on these targets are not against the rules. Roy could go all-out straight off on the new HPoH, official bodyguard or not, but the 9 other vampires may make this a Bad Idea.

In normal circumstances, an event like this results in everybody booking it, and resolving what rules were broken from a safe distance. In this instance, everybody is forced to stay - for the survival of the world. Any High Priests who care more for their self preservation than the outcome might flee. Most likely is turtling - all the defensive shields go up. If Lurky Corpsewhiskers does take all but 3 with him using the orb, and does so quickly, the chances are he can do so before anybody else takes offensive action. If more than priest+2 remain for more than a dozen rounds, however, it will likely go nuclear. After all, the fate of the world is at stake!

[Crusher]

Holy crap.

How many charges does that staff have?

[HandofShadows]

Ooooooh SHEEP DIP! :smalleek::smalleek::smalleek:

[Crusher]

Interesting that these vamps are apparently priests of Hel now, despite not being dwarves (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0946.html). Maybe the default is for the vampire spirit to be provided by the deity of the siring vampire, or something.

I wonder whether Roy's bodyguard job applies to the person or the title? Though even if he's the bodyguard of the generic HPoH, Durkula can maybe just fire him, leaving poor unappreciated Belkar to try and save the day by bowling over a queue of vampire high priests. Probably not gonna work. :)

Not necessarily. Only the dwarves who had been clerics become priests of Hel, and there are probably a few of those mixed in. The other dwarves and non-dwarves are just thralls. However, who's to say that the High Priest of Hel technically has to actually be a priest of Hel? As the Exarch kinda points out, its not like other folks can *prove* that's not how it works.

[Liberivore]

FINALLY!!! Rich, how dare you slow down the pace of the story with trivial things like holidays and Christmas! Moar!!

/rant ends :smalltongue:

I might be getting this wrong, but I'm pretty sure that Rich has kept some info from us or Durkula just broke a record in terms of missionary work. There's a limit to how many thralls a vampire can have, meaning most if not all of those are free-willed. Which means that Durkula successfully converted each and every free-willed vampire to convert to his religion and then help him destroy the planet they "live" in. Impressive. :smalleek:

Actually, the conversion part is understandable: they want to put their cleric-levels to use and most(?) other divinities refuse undead and/or Lawful Evil alignement. The impressive part is that none of them went "screw you, I'm gonna make the most of my undeath to found an empire somewhere, I'm not interested in being destroyed and I (unlike you) have no grudge against dwarves." As Durkula explained, a vampire's soul is created to fill a hole in the heart of the subject: it's goals/ideals aren't entirely removed from those in life. So Durkula must have been very damn convincing.

That or lack of representation in the Godsmoot really frustrated the Creed of Stone. Or, possibly, Hel promised them a really cushy afterlife. I suppose that not being able to leave the temple without the Protection From Daylight spell could have weighed in, but I doubt it.

tl;dr Why do free-willed vampires want the world to end? :smallconfused: Durkula must have promised them something. Or Rich has yet another plot twist planned. Or I'm nitpicking details.

[Porthos]

no the rules are clear http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0994.html

ONE CLERIC PER GOD

That's not what it says. At all.

Only the formal high priest of each of the Northern Gods amy attend and Thor's emissary has already arrived. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0994.html)

But ushers may attend. In fact they HAVE to be able to attend.

Now if there was a formal rule that states that ushers no longer are ushers if they convert, then you might have something. If there isn't though, and I strongly suspect there isn't (otherwise why have "Durkon" do what he did) you have TWO rules that contradict each other.

What to do, what to do.

Too bad the Gods aren't around anymore to take a vote on this matter. :smalltongue: Also too bad that only one thing was scheduled to be voted on.

Guess we're just gonna have to have a Mexican Standoff lest one party push things too far due to rules conflicting.

Maybe if the Fate of the World wasn't at hand, these priests could sit down and decide which rule has precedence. Too bad that there are probably folks there who won't like a ruling that goes against them if it was pressed. Better to just let things be deadlocked in stasis if it is even deadlocked.

====

What I am trying to say is if one side attacks the ushers for a supposed rule violation the other side will fire back to protect their interests. If you want to consider it a case of the rules breaking down, fine. I'm sure "Durkon" doesn't particularly care as long as there is still at least one High Priest of Hel standing when all is said and done. :smalltongue:

============

EDITED TO NOT DOUBLE POST


Of all the people in the world, a group of high priests is among the most likely to:


believe that personhood is in the soul, not in the body
understand that a vampire is a separate being from the body's former occupant

Those vampires are not (and never were) ushers of the Stone Temple, they are priests (and perhaps templars) of Hel, wearing usher outfits.

Now this is a reasonable objection, IMO. But it's tricky given the actual rules of D&D and template status and the like. I can't say one way or the other on this one, but I'll be interested to see if Rich addresses it either in-comic or out.

[hroþila]

The impressive part is that none of them went "screw you, I'm gonna make the most of my undeath to found an empire somewhere, I'm not interested in being destroyed and I (unlike you) have no grudge against dwarves." As Durkula explained, a vampire's soul is created to fill a hole in the heart of the subject: it's goals/ideals aren't entirely removed from those in life. So Durkula must have been very damn convincing.
They have had precious little time to weigh their options and do any soul-searching. Perhaps "just after rising, surrounded by Evil vampires who seem to be perfectly loyal to Hel" is not the best time to affirm your individuality and pave your own path in unlife. Going with the flow is the most natural thing these unnatural aberrations could do.

[Anarion]

This comic really shows vampirism as a sort of plague. Hel could never get a high priest, and now from a single vampire, she has a large potential following of mid level clerics.

[Forikroder]

theres no contradiction, they LEFT the neutral party and joined one of the gods so now there no longer creed of stone but church of hel and only one member of the church of hel is allowed in the building

[Porthos]

theres no contradiction, they LEFT the neutral party and joined one of the gods so now there no longer creed of stone but church of hel and only one member of the church of hel is allowed in the building

My point is that you don't know if converting religions stops someone from being an usher. You simply can't point to the comic that says as such. Not as far as I know, at any rate.

Now, as I said above, I am sympathetic to the argument that these are different people and aren't ushers because the spirits in control of the meatsack were never ushers in the first place.

But if that isn't a roadblock, then I fail to see where you have established that coverting/chganging religions automatically stops one from being an usher.

[Giggling Ghast]

Just how much time did Durkula have to track down all of the stone clerics and ushers without attracting Roy's attention for the delay of getting into the nave?

One vampire spawn turns another, and then those two turn two more, and then those four blah blah blah.

[PallentisLunam]

Frontarchy :smallbiggrin: beautiful, great comic.

Hopefully the young personalities of the vampires lead to recklessness or hotheadedness or something so they attack somebody besides Roy and they all get dusted on the spot by a dozen high level clerics.

[Heksefatter]

Wow, Durkula is really a piece of ....

[Forikroder]

My point is that you don't know if converting religions stops someone from being an usher. You simply can't point to the comic that says as such. Not as far as I know, at any rate.

Now, as I said above, I am sympathetic to the argument that these are different people and aren't ushers because the spirits in control of the meatsack were never ushers in the first place.

But if that isn't a roadblock, then I fail to see where you have established that coverting/chganging religions automatically stops one from being an usher.

point to where it saids "every member of the creed of stone has to be allowed full access to the cathedral"

you cant

you CAN point to where it saids only one cleric of each god is alowed inside

MY argument has evidence from the comic, YOURS does not

[Shining Wrath]

yes it is, there god had no stake in the godsmoot so they were allowed, there new god does have a stake so there not allowed

only one cleric of hel is allowed in the godsmoot just like every other god

There's a distinction between "High Priest" and "cleric" you are missing. You must demonstrate from canon that there has NEVER been a bodyguard who was a cleric of the High Priest they were guarding. Good luck.

[The Pilgrim]

Heavens, how many charges does that staff have?

[Forikroder]

There's a distinction between "High Priest" and "cleric" you are missing. You must demonstrate from canon that there has NEVER been a bodyguard who was a cleric of the High Priest they were guarding. Good luck.

the exarch literally saids ONLY THE FORMAL HIGH PRIEST OF EACH PANTHEON MAY ATTEND and denies Durkula entry since hes a cleric and there allowed only 2 bodyguards theres a hell of alot more then 2 vampires there AND Durkulas 2 bodyguards were already named and assigned so hes not allowed to bring in more

[Tom Tearcamel]

I wonder if Durkon (vamp spirit) was hasty in choosing his replacement. She's probably a thrall now, but by her coloring she appears to have been be a southerner, so presumably she's a cleric of Rat.

[GreatWyrmGold]

Ah crap, they can change their High Priest whenever they need.
The perks of being a frontarchy.


This will surely raise an issue with the number of bodyguards.
That was my thought. I mean, wasn't there a rule about only two bodyguards per cleric? If I'm counting right, they're at least seven over the limit. That should at least earn a yellow card.


Interesting that these vamps are apparently priests of Hel now, despite not being dwarves (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0946.html). Maybe the default is for the vampire spirit to be provided by the deity of the siring vampire, or something.
Since when was Malack a priest of Hel?
Probably just the death god of the corpse's homeland.


Or, how many of them will just open a window?
If a dozen vampires charging into the chamber after their patron literally declared her intent to destroy the world and rule the next doesn't count as a hostile action, surely getting a little fresh air wouldn't.


Wow, Durkula is really a piece of ....
Rotten undead flesh? Yes he is.


Now this is a reasonable objection, IMO. But it's tricky given the actual rules of D&D and template status and the like. I can't say one way or the other on this one, but I'll be interested to see if Rich addresses it either in-comic or out.
Identity isn't a rules question, it's a lore question. The lore has been pretty clearly-stated.


My point is that you don't know if converting religions stops someone from being an usher. You simply can't point to the comic that says as such. Not as far as I know, at any rate.
"...They're administrating this meeting as a neutral party" (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0994.html) (emphasis mine). This suggests that being a neutral party is tied to their administrative role. Priests of Hel aren't neutral, hence they can't administrate the meeting, hence they can't be ushers.
Not conclusive, but let's see the evidence suggesting that neutrality doesn't matter.


Really? How much do you want to bet on that? Figuratively speaking of course. After all, there are A LOT of priests present that who serve gods that want to end the world.
I wouldn't be so sure. Who wanted to end the world, aye, but now that Hel reveals that she's using them to get enough power to forcibly take over the next world? I imagine some of them have had, shall we say, changes of heart.
* Tyr: Likely not eager to let Hel get a strategic advantage over him.
* Heimdall: From one point of view, not getting on the bad side of the potential god-queen would be the cautious option...but this changes if enough gods gang up on her.
* Sunna: I don't think we have enough of a read on her to decide how she might change her mind.
* Njord: With how frivolous her reasons were, I can see his decision changing easily with a recent tragedy.
* Skadi: Think life will thrive if Hel, goddess of death, takes the helm?
* Hoder: See Sunna.
* Fenrir: ...Okay, Fenrir's probably going to stick with his sister.
* Vafthrudnir: His reasons don't change much, and his motives don't suggest any particular reason to dislike Hel.
They might want to destroy the world later...but there's a way to prevent Hel from becoming queen, most of them have reason to do so.

Hel's popularity took a big dip. Assuming the Godsmoot full of gods who hate what she did for one reason or another will do nothing is foolish. After all, the protections of the Godsmoot can be revoked if, say, 10-13 out of eighteen gods (including Hel) stopped giving a damn. Majority vote. Heck, they could plausibly get a supermajority even without Sunna, Hoder, or Vafthrudnir.

[Lerch]

Could Durkula be a "mythic" vampire?

Create Mythic Spawn: At 8th rank, a mythic vampire can expend one use of mythic power when using create spawn to cause the victim to rise as undead in 1 hour instead of 1d4 days. The mythic vampire can expend two uses of mythic power when using create spawn to create a mythic vampire instead of a vampire spawn or non-mythic vampire.

Just wondering.

[Porthos]

point to where it saids "every member of the creed of stone has to be allowed full access to the cathedral"

you cant

you CAN point to where it saids only one cleric of each god is alowed inside

MY argument has evidence from the comic, YOURS does not

Where's that Balder man with those demigod priests?" "All he needed to do was go to the top of the stairs and call for an usher. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1005.html)

Furthermore, the Head Usher says "I will escort you to the Great Nave personally. Your bodyguards will be shown to the balcony. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0994.html)

Later, Roy notes that the Head Usher who was escorting "Durkon" probably went back to guarding the door. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0997.html)

Iron clad proof? No. But ushers who can't usher is a bit silly, no? :smalltongue: Plus the whole "Why would 'Durkon' do this if he didn't think he could get away with it" point. :smallwink:

[Cirin]

No rule seems to state that additional clergy cannot attend - probably a bodyguard is also a cleric from time to time.

Durkon wasn't going to be allowed in originally because there already was one cleric of Thor in attendance, he had to whisper to the usher that he was attending as the High Priest of Hel to be allowed in.

That certainly seems to indicate that it's strictly one Cleric per deity at the Godsmoot, without much room for exceptions.

[happycrow]

Having read the Shape Stone and Wall of Stone spell srd, it seems likely to me that there are a LOT of Creedsters raised up by GontoHel (and following vamp-tree logic). It doesn't seem like it's something a small cadre could do in a day no matter what their level.

[IlanaAeryn]

I don't get the frontarchy joke. :smallfrown: Could anybody help here?

[WindStruck]

And this is why none of the other gods invite Hel to their special events.

[Porthos]

Not conclusive, but let's see the evidence suggesting that neutrality doesn't matter.

That "Durkon" is presumably not stupid enough to engage a plan that leads to his automatic disqualification/destruction?

I mean, I suppose it's an Appeal to Authority of a sort. But I tend to think that "Durkon" is attempting it is proof enough of a sort that he thinks it has a high chance to work.


*list of gods snipped*

Only takes one priest to start the pie fight. Once that pie fight starts, who knows what kinda snarls will develop in the plot. :smallamused:

[Markozeta]

Reading back through - all the hints were there. The lack of ushers coming when HPoBeldar called, the fact fHPoH showed up without ushers. All the hints were there. Great job. If I was a player though, I'd see about destroying the building. Nobody says the bodyguards can't attack the building to allow some sun in. By the next day none of them will be protected. That really cuts down on fHPOH's time to run through the dwarf lands to get a vote.

[Forikroder]

Where's that Balder man with those demigod priests?" "All he needed to do was go to the top of the stairs and call for an usher. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1005.html)

Furthermore, the Head Usher says "I will escort you to the Great Nave personally. Your bodyguards will be shown to the balcony. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0994.html)

Later, Roy notes that the Head Usher who was escorting "Durkon" probably went back to guarding the door. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0997.html)

Iron clad proof? No. But ushers who can't usher is a bit silly, no? :smalltongue: Plus the whole "Why would 'Durkon' do this if he didn't think he could get away with it" point. :smallwink:

okay so aparently this is really complicated question

WHERE DOES IT SAY THAT MEMBERS OF THE CREED OF THE STONE ARE ALLOWED ACCESS INTO THE CATHEDRAL (including the voting area) THAT CANNOT BE REVOKED AT ANY POINT IN TIME AND SUPERCEDES ANY OTHER RULES SET UP IN THE GODSMOOT

[Shining Wrath]

no the rules are clear http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0994.html

ONE CLERIC PER GOD

The formal high priest plus two bodyguards, who may be of any class. Show me where it explicitly and clearly says a bodyguard cannot have even a single level in cleric. Until then, drop it.

[Porthos]

I don't get the frontarchy joke. :smallfrown: Could anybody help here?

Patriarchy = Rule by Men.
Matriarchy = Rule by Women.
Frontarchy = Rule by Whoever Is In Front of the Line (when a succession is needed).

[brian 333]

I want to chime in and say that the former members of the Creed of Stone are no longer ushers because their spirits no longer rule their bodies. The animating forces of their corpses are new beings and, as such, do not gain any protection from the rules of the moot restricting access to only one representative and two bodyguards. Which apparently they did not have any protection anyway as ushers or Durkula's actions would have been enough to disqualify him for violation of the neutrality of the site.

Were I a cleric of the moot, I would raise this objection: The Former High Priest of Hel violated the neutrality of the site, and thus Hel's vote, made while he was HPoH, is disqualified. The new HPOH violated the rule that limits attendance to one priest and two bodyguards. At the very least she would have to stand by as the other clerics eliminated the extra vampires from their moot. Also, if the Former HPoH uses his vampiric ability to dominate the dwarven elders, he is again guilty of violation of the neutrality of the moot.

This is why I prefer simple rules instead of complex ones. A complex labyrinth of rules begs for loopholes to be found and abused, while clear, direct, and simple rules cover almost any scenario. The Godsmoot is a neutral site, and those attending may not interfere with the actions of any other attendee. Durkula was definitely an attendee, and any interference such as the 'conversion' of the Creed of Stone or the manipulation of Lord Dvalin's vote by domination of the dwarven elders is a rules violation.

[IlanaAeryn]

Thank you. Joke needing to be explained still == not funny... oh, a reminder I didn't want.


Patriarchy = Rule by Men.
Matriarchy = Rule by Women.
Frontarchy = Rule by Whoever Is In Front of the Line (when a sucession is needed).

[Shining Wrath]

FINALLY!!! Rich, how dare you slow down the pace of the story with trivial things like holidays and Christmas! Moar!!

/rant ends :smalltongue:

I might be getting this wrong, but I'm pretty sure that Rich has kept some info from us or Durkula just broke a record in terms of missionary work. There's a limit to how many thralls a vampire can have, meaning most if not all of those are free-willed. Which means that Durkula successfully converted each and every free-willed vampire to convert to his religion and then help him destroy the planet they "live" in. Impressive. :smalleek:

Actually, the conversion part is understandable: they want to put their cleric-levels to use and most(?) other divinities refuse undead and/or Lawful Evil alignement. The impressive part is that none of them went "screw you, I'm gonna make the most of my undeath to found an empire somewhere, I'm not interested in being destroyed and I (unlike you) have no grudge against dwarves." As Durkula explained, a vampire's soul is created to fill a hole in the heart of the subject: it's goals/ideals aren't entirely removed from those in life. So Durkula must have been very damn convincing.

That or lack of representation in the Godsmoot really frustrated the Creed of Stone. Or, possibly, Hel promised them a really cushy afterlife. I suppose that not being able to leave the temple without the Protection From Daylight spell could have weighed in, but I doubt it.

tl;dr Why do free-willed vampires want the world to end? :smallconfused: Durkula must have promised them something. Or Rich has yet another plot twist planned. Or I'm nitpicking details.

Assuming each of those persons was formerly a Northern Pantheon person, each of those persons is now a vehicle driven by an evil spirit explicitly created by Hel to serve her and do her bidding in the world. Conversion may be assumed to be automatic.

[Porthos]

okay so aparently this is really complicated question

WHERE DOES IT SAY THAT MEMBERS OF THE CREED OF THE STONE ARE ALLOWED ACCESS INTO THE CATHEDRAL (including the voting area) THAT CANNOT BE REVOKED AT ANY POINT IN TIME AND SUPERCEDES ANY OTHER RULES SET UP IN THE GODSMOOT

We don't know all the rules. THAT'S MY POINT! :smallsmile:

My other point is Since "Durkon" is attempting it, it seems there ISN'T a rule against what he is trying to do. :smallsmile: And what he is doing seems to be within everything we already know if ushers don't lose their status by converting/being vamped.

Don't over think this, in other words.

====

By the way, when it comes for an Out of Comic reason for all of this, it's pretty apparent that they have so many vampires here so Roy can't kill them all and we won't have a repeat of the last 17 strips.

If the rules already established have to be bent or were hidden so we didn't know about them ahead of time, that's a small price to pay for a little thing that we call "drama" and "suspense". :smallwink:

[Forikroder]

The formal high priest plus two bodyguards, who may be of any class. Show me where it explicitly and clearly says a bodyguard cannot have even a single level in cleric. Until then, drop it.

he already has 2 bodyguards, and the exarch didnt say "unless your a bodyguard" he saids "you just ahve to wait outside"

[KorvinStarmast]

The question is: Does he quit or does he get fired first. :smalltongue: I think termination began when he attacked DurkonVampire in the first place. Valid cause for termination: as bodyguard, attacking he whom you are guarding is typically grounds for termination.

A few other stray issues from previous pages:


tl;dr Why do free-willed vampires want the world to end?
To avoid over eating? With a full world and all of that blood, the temptation to become Fatpires might be overwhelming.

One vampire spawn turns another, and then those two turn two more, and then those four blah blah blah.
OK OK, the last frame after Durkula tosses Belkar out the window sets up that gal as a breeder. Got it.

[Kish]

Could Durkula be a "mythic" vampire?

Create Mythic Spawn: At 8th rank, a mythic vampire can expend one use of mythic power when using create spawn to cause the victim to rise as undead in 1 hour instead of 1d4 days. The mythic vampire can expend two uses of mythic power when using create spawn to create a mythic vampire instead of a vampire spawn or non-mythic vampire.

Just wondering.
The High Priest of Hel is highly unlikely to be anything from Pathfinder, no.

[PoeticDwarf]

That's 11 vampires, including the big guy outside. Looks like the staff had plenty of charges.

It are 10 vampires entering right?

[Grey Pilgrim]

I want to chime in and say that the former members of the Creed of Stone are no longer ushers because their spirits no longer rule their bodies...
Yes, this is a reasonable argument from an outside point of view. But we have seen that inside the comic the knowledge about the true nature of a vampire is very uncommon. Could be that even when talking about bunch of presumably high level priests only a very few of them would have the knowledge. Those few may indeed claim such an objection in the future. Or they may not. But remember that it is safe to assume that for the most of the attendies (is that a word?) the ushers may simply still be ushers. With a new fancy template.

[Shining Wrath]

he already has 2 bodyguards, and the exarch didnt say "unless your a bodyguard" he saids "you just ahve to wait outside"

The formal high priest is now the gal at the front of the line. The erstwhile high priest plus his buddy who misted his way into the room with the orb are about to decamp.

[Bulldog Psion]

It are 10 vampires entering right?

Yes, I'm counting 10 entering.

There's also Gontohel.

There's at least one "Goliath" outside, as people have been calling it. I'm guessing that both "Goliath" guards were vamped, though.

[137beth]

Frontarchy is my new favorite word.

[One Skunk Todd]

So they are all Creed of Stone members due to the amulets right? Does this mean all their spell slots are likely expended from raising the temple? Or does vamping restore spells?

ETA: Are all the CoS people clerics?

[Forikroder]

The formal high priest is now the gal at the front of the line. The erstwhile high priest plus his buddy who misted his way into the room with the orb are about to decamp.

they all still broke the rules

[wkwkwkwk1]

Great comic! Both funny and horrifying! :smallbiggrin:

[GreatWyrmGold]

Could Durkula be a "mythic" vampire?
Create Mythic Spawn: At 8th rank, a mythic vampire can expend one use of mythic power when using create spawn to cause the victim to rise as undead in 1 hour instead of 1d4 days. The mythic vampire can expend two uses of mythic power when using create spawn to create a mythic vampire instead of a vampire spawn or non-mythic vampire.
Just wondering.
1. Where is the mythic vampire from?
2. Has there even been an hour since the Mechanae landed?


Durkon wasn't going to be allowed in originally because there already was one cleric of Thor in attendance, he had to whisper to the usher that he was attending as the High Priest of Hel to be allowed in.
That certainly seems to indicate that it's strictly one Cleric per deity at the Godsmoot, without much room for exceptions.
The only exception I can think of is if the extra clerics were just bodyguards of the acting High Priest.
Which means Hel can have three vampire clerics, if she can dismiss Roy and Belkar from their bodyguard duties.


I don't get the frontarchy joke. :smallfrown: Could anybody help here?
The suffix -archy means "rule by," as in "monarchy" (rule by one), "matriarchy" (rule by women), "anarchy" (no rule), etc. "Frontarchy" would therefore mean "rule by the guy in front". Well, sort of.


That "Durkon" is presumably not stupid enough to engage a plan that leads to his automatic disqualification/destruction?
I mean, I suppose it's an Appeal to Authority of a sort. But I tend to think that "Durkon" is attempting it is proof enough of a sort that he thinks it has a high chance to work.
We're not arguing if Durkon's plan will work, we're arguing if its success makes sense. And it really doesn't. All of those clerics are allowed in because they're neutral, but now they aren't.


Only takes one priest to start the pie fight. Once that pie fight starts, who knows what kinda snarls will develop in the plot. :smallamused:
I don't think brief and mostly one-sided disagreements among the gods are enough to make snarls. I mean, the Snarl didn't become evident until after the world was created, and the disagreements seem to have been present from the beginning.
In fact, I'm not sure Snarls can form from divine disagreements over things other than creation. I mean, the Snarl formed from threads of creation getting entangled by divine arguments over how they should lie—what's the parallel here?


Yes, this is a reasonable argument from an outside point of view. But we have seen that inside the comic the knowledge about the true nature of a vampire is very uncommon.
Among people with no ranks in Knowledge (religion), such as the members of the Order, sure. But high priests presumably invest heavily in the skill, and are of high level. Telling me that not one high priest would recognize that vampires are new beings is just silly.
And that's not even considering that they just had a practical demonstration that vampires aren't the original person playing out in front of them.
And it would only take one.


So they are all Creed of Stone members due to the amulets right? Does this mean all their spell slots are likely expended from raising the temple? Or does vamping restore spells?
I don't believe it did for Durkon. They'll need to wait for sunset.
And they still have their low-level spell slots.

[Silverionmox]

But they were never neutral, they worshipped an non-personified god/principle. Starting worshipping another isn't going to change their usher status.

Nonsense. The Creed of the Stone is dead. Durkon is dead. They both are different persons, and just like Durkon's body is now the body of Hel's (ex-)High Priest, the bodies of the ushers are now in use by Hel's vampires.

Most of them are neither Hel's High Priest nor her bodyguard, so they are valid targets for whatever mass destroy undead or repel undead spells all those good priests have ready (besides the help from their bodyguards).

All they need to do is hold them off Roy and Belkar while they dust the significantly less powerful recently vampirized, out-of-spells cleric that is now Hel's High Priest before the dwarven council has been called and has decided. Then the tie is broken.

[Porthos]

We're not arguing if Durkon's plan will work, we're arguing if its success makes sense. And it really doesn't. All of those clerics are allowed in because they're neutral, but now they aren't.

*shrug*

Makes sense to me. Rather brilliantly, actually. Again, IMO. Mostly because I am quite familiar with the concept of twisting crazy rules to suit ones purposes (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0278.html). :smallwink:

It all hinges on whether or not an usher can be kicked out of usher duty. Well, that and the vamping angle.

...

Say, I wonder if there might be a comic coming up covering that or not. :smalltongue: :smallwink:

[Aeliren]

What a shocking display of frontism!

Also, does that now make him the Vampire Formerly Known as the High Priest of Hel?

[hroþila]

Maybe the ushers being there is against the rules, and the rest of the Godsmoot will deal with it at some later time, instead of the nanosecond they step into the hall uninvited.
But maybe they still count as ushers and are therefore allowed inside, as long as they behave. Sure, they're different souls and different people, and the gods know this. But the gods also know that's how they agreed vampirism worked: the vampire spirit pretty much takes over the victim's persona.

[PallentisLunam]

Just throwing it out there, who says that a high priest has to be a cleric at all? It seems pretty clear from Durkula and Gontor's interaction that their actions are bound by their church's internal rules and they can make up those rules it suit their current needs and nobody can challenge them. So if they say that their high priest need not be a cleric then they don't.

[Pyrous]

Most of them are neither Hel's High Priest nor her bodyguard, so they are valid targets for whatever mass destroy undead or repel undead spells all those good priests have ready (besides the help from their bodyguards).

Good luck figuring out which of them are not a bodyguard before they teleport to dwarven lands.

[PallentisLunam]

What a shocking display of frontism!

Also, does that now make him the Vampire Formerly Known as the High Priest of Hel?

No, because tVFKatHPoH is not a very good shorthand.

[Rogar Demonblud]

Now that is an XP enriched environment. Time for Roy to get his Van Helsing on and recoup that lost level.

Also, THIS is why you dust vampires on sight.

[Doug Lampert]

Huh, I had been assuming that they'd use the loophole of "teleporting away isn't passing through the arches".

Nothing significant will be decided in favor of Our Heroes by rules minutia. We haven't been given the full text of the Godsmoot rules because they are IRRELEVANT or actually harmful to the problems Our Heroes are working on.

If a tool is going to be used to resolve a plotline then good storytelling says it needs to be present in the story PRIOR to resolving a major plot point.


Really? How much do you want to bet on that? Figuratively speaking of course.

After all, there are A LOT of priests present that who serve gods that want to end the world.

Opening fire on the Church of Hel pretty much starts Armageddon in the Godsmoot. And stopping that from happening is kinda the whole point of these moots. If one recalls.

Sure, someone who is triggerhappy might be tempted. But as long as the Church of Hel doesn't initiate hostilities, and so far they have attacked NO ONE covered under the protection of the Moot (unless it was in self-defense), I suspect that the folks present are just going to have to sit back and accept it.

If only there was a team of Heroes who might be available to take charge of the situation.

If only. :smallwink:

Yep, if there were such a team of heroes we could even be reading a comic about them and named after their group rather than a comic called, "High Priests of the Northern Pantheons".

Just as the problem won't be solved by Rules Minutia of a set of rules we haven't been given, it also won't be solved by a bunch of newly introduced characters acting in ways we've been told they don't act. [Godsmoot attendees don't actually attack each other, Our Heroes can break that rule because breaking the rules is what heroes do, the villains can break that because breaking or abusing the rules is also what villains do, the newly introduced high priests are only allowed to do so if Roy or someone else pretty well forces them into it.]


I want to chime in and say that the former members of the Creed of Stone are no longer ushers because their spirits no longer rule their bodies. The animating forces of their corpses are new beings and, as such, do not gain any protection from the rules of the moot restricting access to only one representative and two bodyguards. Which apparently they did not have any protection anyway as ushers or Durkula's actions would have been enough to disqualify him for violation of the neutrality of the site.

Were I a cleric of the moot, I would raise this objection: The Former High Priest of Hel violated the neutrality of the site, and thus Hel's vote, made while he was HPoH, is disqualified. The new HPOH violated the rule that limits attendance to one priest and two bodyguards. At the very least she would have to stand by as the other clerics eliminated the extra vampires from their moot. Also, if the Former HPoH uses his vampiric ability to dominate the dwarven elders, he is again guilty of violation of the neutrality of the moot.

This is why I prefer simple rules instead of complex ones. A complex labyrinth of rules begs for loopholes to be found and abused, while clear, direct, and simple rules cover almost any scenario. The Godsmoot is a neutral site, and those attending may not interfere with the actions of any other attendee. Durkula was definitely an attendee, and any interference such as the 'conversion' of the Creed of Stone or the manipulation of Lord Dvalin's vote by domination of the dwarven elders is a rules violation.

Simple rules? Like: "Can't interfere with any other attendees actions."

So making speeches intended to change people's minds or actions (see Roy) is a CLEAR VIOLATION and he must be SMOTE! Not to mention the even worse violation when he attacked the HPoH.

Meanwhile the HPoH was simply doing what vampires do when he vampirized all those Ushers (who aren't actually attendees anyway) and thus is entirely within the rules and attempts to attack him or his successor are clear violations.

I think you're missing that simple rules don't AVOID loopholes, they are NOTHING BUT LOOPHOLES! Because it's all in how you interpret those simple rules, and Durkula can make a fine case that he's the one staying within your simple rules while Roy is the only one violating them.

So the HPoH does what he's doing without interference, and the High Priest of Fenris (for example) can attack Roy for his massive violation, yep, those simple rules would be a real help. A real help to the Evil gods who want to destroy the world that is.

Simple rules work for a group where everyone is basically on the same page about what they want and what the rules mean. They fail at getting groups that would like to kill each other to have a way to meet peacefully, guess which type of group the Godsmoot is? It needs rules that work when everyone has a different idea of what should be being done on even as basic a question as "do we all want to live" or "do we want the world destroyed".


Nonsense. The Creed of the Stone is dead. Durkon is dead. They both are different persons, and just like Durkon's body is now the body of Hel's (ex-)High Priest, the bodies of the ushers are now in use by Hel's vampires.

Most of them are neither Hel's High Priest nor her bodyguard, so they are valid targets for whatever mass destroy undead or repel undead spells all those good priests have ready (besides the help from their bodyguards).

All they need to do is hold them off Roy and Belkar while they dust the significantly less powerful recently vampirized, out-of-spells cleric that is now Hel's High Priest before the dwarven council has been called and has decided. Then the tie is broken.

This assumes that all the priests will want to help dust or hold off vampires, which isn't true.
It assumes that Roy is still a bodyguard, and that bodyguard goes with the office being guarded rather than the person being guarded, which may or may not be true.
It assumes that the priests are willing to closely read the rules we don't have and that we don't know what they say about vampires, and come to the conclusion you want them to come to rather than the one that story structure says they are going to come to.

It's in fact still perfectly reasonable for the priests to say, "Well, we can't do anything because the Ushers are allowed to be here and that cleric is the High Priest of Hel." In fact that's at least as reasonable under the rules as we know them as anything else, and its the option that leads the story to the next point, so...

[Porthos]

Good luck figuring out which of them are not a bodyguard before they teleport to dwarven lands.

This is also a point. In the case of the ushers NOT being allowed to stay in the room, even though they were able to bypass the glowy gate thing somehow, all "Durkon" has to do is teleport them out.

He can take up to eight creatures (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0967.html), including himself. There are 12 vamps in the room. 8 port out, 1 remains and elects two new bodybguards (after formally firing Roy). That does leave a vamp that has to leave the room or be dealt with I suppose. But that's what future strips are for. :smallwink:

So even if the other priests raise a stink about these interlopers, the vast majority of them can leave if they are indeed ordered to leave forthwith.

[Rift_Wolf]

First off; love this comic and feel a bit sad going back and finding a lot of the pre-vamped Creed in the background. Even the Frontiarch!

My take on the ushers being let in; even if they're now counted as Hel's church, that doesn't mean they can't come in. The barrier at the door might be one-way letting people in, as we've seen no evidence to contradict this. As for the rules; Durkon was allowed into the voting Hall as an observer. I'm not expecting 'not Creed anymore? Holy Smites!', more 'members of Hels church? Polite request to leave!'

I'm having trouble with the speed of vamping, but can easily rationalise it; the staff HpoH carried into the room isn't necessarily the same one he got from Malack. It's possible that Exarch did a lot of the busy work behind the scenes while HpoH Attended the vote.

I'm looking forward to the next page though; the Whiskers Cliffhanger is still unresolved!

[Aeliren]

On another note, it appears that four of the vampires were the Creed members that used to tend the entrance in Strip 994 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0994.html). The abdicated High Priest of Hel's successor is the blue-haired woman, and also present are the bald shaved man next to the giant, the blond usher and the brown-haired dwarven Creed member, all of varying shades of dead now.

[Jasdoif]

All of those clerics are allowed in because they're neutral, but now they aren't.Assuming that is in fact how the rule goes....The Creeders had no protection from the rules of the Godsmoot (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0995.html) in the first place, so I'm not sure their alter transmogrified vampire egos would have less protection from the rules.

[Basement Cat]

But...only High Priests and their two personal bodyguards are permitted into the forum. The HPoH can be smug in the extreme about exploiting the rules but by flooding the room with followers he's breaking the rules.

Ironically it doesn't matter that his followers are all vampires. It just matters that he's brought in more than two bodyguards.

[Jasdoif]

But...only High Priests and their two personal bodyguards are permitted into the forum. The HPoH can be smug in the extreme about exploiting the rules but by flooding the room with followers he's breaking the rules.

Ironically it doesn't matter that his followers are all vampires. It just matters that he's brought in more than two bodyguards.It doesn't actually matter. The retinue he brought in has no more protection than their bodies did when they were alive, and HPoH claims to be about to leave so he is unlikely to be held accountable personally for breaking any rules.

[Porthos]

so I'm not sure their alter transmogrified vampire egos would have less protection from the rules.


It doesn't actually matter.

So are you in fact saying that all this arguing is moot? :smallamused:

[rman]

So is Roy still the HPoH's bodyguard? The HPoH changed, but that should just mean Roys connection shifts to the new HPoH.

As the rest of the vampires will be quite lower in clerical levels, this just means a little delay before there is no more HPoH.

It will be 1 vs 1. Roy vs the current HPoH until there are no more HPoH's around. The non-HPoH vampires cannot assist without breaking the rules.

- edit, adding -
Clearly at this point another High Priest can use their "Knowledge Vampires" and assert the vampires are new entities and not members of the Creed and thus can be blasted on the spot as interlopers. All the ones that are not currently the HPoH.

[Aegis J Hyena]

Well, damn. Even a sexy shoeless god of war can't deal with that many blood thieves...

[PallentisLunam]

Well, damn. Even a sexy shoeless god of war can't deal with that many blood thieves...

Never underestimate the belkster

[Grey Watcher]

Oh boy! Now the (former) HPoH's malicious intent is undeniable! Come on priests, blast away!

And now we might see what the other bodyguards can do.

Also whats up with the "seriously" look on the vampire to the far right, lol. Looks like someones offended they weren't picked to be HPoH

Do you perhaps mean the High Priestess of the Hunter Goddess Whose Name Escapes Me who just happens to be standing behind the vampires?


Aww, I just recognized the usher who showed Roy and Wrecan into the meeting hall. Now I feel sad. :smallfrown:

I'm pretty sure every Creed of Stone priest we've seen has appeared on-panel as a vampire now. The new High Priestess was one of the door guards, and, with the exception of the Large-sized fellow about to throw down with Belkar, every priest we've seen and then some is now in the Nave being all threatening and vampiry.

[Millstone85]

That's 11 vampiresEleven! 11 mighty vampires, ah ah ah!

[Jasdoif]

So are you in fact saying that all this arguing is moot? :smallamused:It does seem like it should be a low priority topic for debate, yes.

Something like why HPoH needs the Exarch to accompany him seems like a more interesting point, since it's far more likely to influence events. Presumably they're both headed to Dwarvesmoot, but it seems like a dangerous assumption to make...and not just because I'm keeping my eyes peeled for HPoH targeting the Gate directly to render the 'moots moot.

[Killer Angel]

Eleven! 11 mighty vampires, ah ah ah!

The ones we actually see. Who knows, maybe they're even more. .. :smalleek:

[Grey Watcher]

Eleven! 11 mighty vampires, ah ah ah!

On the eleventh day of Christmas, Rich Burlew gave to me...

Eleven Vampire Clerics!

[Mightymosy]

FINALLY!!! Rich, how dare you slow down the pace of the story with trivial things like holidays and Christmas! Moar!!

/rant ends :smalltongue:

I might be getting this wrong, but I'm pretty sure that Rich has kept some info from us or Durkula just broke a record in terms of missionary work. There's a limit to how many thralls a vampire can have, meaning most if not all of those are free-willed. Which means that Durkula successfully converted each and every free-willed vampire to convert to his religion and then help him destroy the planet they "live" in. Impressive. :smalleek:

Actually, the conversion part is understandable: they want to put their cleric-levels to use and most(?) other divinities refuse undead and/or Lawful Evil alignement. The impressive part is that none of them went "screw you, I'm gonna make the most of my undeath to found an empire somewhere, I'm not interested in being destroyed and I (unlike you) have no grudge against dwarves." As Durkula explained, a vampire's soul is created to fill a hole in the heart of the subject: it's goals/ideals aren't entirely removed from those in life. So Durkula must have been very damn convincing.

That or lack of representation in the Godsmoot really frustrated the Creed of Stone. Or, possibly, Hel promised them a really cushy afterlife. I suppose that not being able to leave the temple without the Protection From Daylight spell could have weighed in, but I doubt it.

tl;dr Why do free-willed vampires want the world to end? :smallconfused: Durkula must have promised them something. Or Rich has yet another plot twist planned. Or I'm nitpicking details.

Reasons are for 'tagonists.

[Gift Jeraff]

I wonder if Durkon (vamp spirit) was hasty in choosing his replacement. She's probably a thrall now, but by her coloring she appears to have been be a southerner, so presumably she's a cleric of Rat.

She has the same stone amulet as the others. I'd reckon that the Creed of the Stone and other elemental churches are open to all regions of the world.

[Seto]

Damn, he's good at being Evil.

[Jasdoif]

On the eleventh day of Christmas, Rich Burlew gave to me...

Eleven Vampire Clerics!Oh good, do you know how hard it is to get all eleven pipers to be quiet? I've yet to see an entire set that can tell the difference between a request for a silent night and a request for Silent Night.

[JoeyTheNeko]

dannnng. this is going to be a major problem.

[wyrmhole]

Hel's plan hinges on getting a binding vote in favor of ending the world, which hinges on her priest's vote, which hinges on her and her priest following the rules and not getting evicted. Which is why, as she said, she has studied the rules. So she could exploit them. Theories that Durkula was breaking the rules and would lose that way have come up before, and haven't come to pass. Theories that he was undermining his own goals through reckless actions like vamping the Exarch turned out to be false, they were actually part of the (backup) plan. Hel knows the rules, Durkula knows the rules through Hel. We don't know them well enough to say for sure whether this action breaks them, but Hel and Durkula would, and yet they're doing it. That they'd let themselves be tripped up over a blatant rules violation at this point in the plan makes no sense. It contradicts everything we know about Hel and her plan.

Plus it would be the worst way to resolve the conflict, narratively.

Roy could trick Durkula into breaking the rules, but he like us is just picking them up as he goes along and so that's doubtful to happen.

I confidently predict that Durkula didn't break the rules, and if the comic addresses the possibility it will be by Durkula smugly explaining why it doesn't break the rules. If I'm wrong, and Durkula loses via him or his vamps doing something explicitly against the rules with no trickery involved, I'll eat my forum icon.

[Bilgore]

Never underestimate the belkster

Indeed.

I am a bit concerned that his prophecy from the Oracle hasn't been fulfilled literally yet, but we may see Belkar hack his way to the front of the line yet.
The prophecy may work to his advantage, if he's drained and converted.
We've seen Durkon's losing struggle against Durkula.
But we've also seen 2/3 of Belkar's conscience. Is one vampire really expecting a match against two devils and a slaad, or even remotely prepared?

[Euclidodese]

Wow... Roy vs 11 vampires, I don't rate his chances that highly, heck, to take that many blood-suckers out you'd need to be some sort of steel-clawed, hydrolic-armed, atomic-powered, world-eating super-warrior with the reflexes of a mayfly and the strength of a wild rhinoce-

"-You rang!" :belkar:

[Euclidodese]

Well, damn. Even a sexy shoeless god of war can't deal with that many blood thieves...

:belkar: "Baby. A lot of people have lost a lot of money betting against The Belkster."

[wumpus]

Does this free all the gods to go back on the "no backsies" rule? All you have to do is send your high priest[ess] out of the building and suddenly your vote no longer counts. I was pretty sure at least one of them was willing to change it.

[Stabbey]

So was the staff-shaped thing HPoHel brought into the main chamber in 997 a different staff, not actually Malack's staff?

Because, see, I could buy that HPoHel used the staff to fast-vamp a couple of the Creed of the Stone members, but I really can't see him personally fast-vamping THAT many, not when Veldrina thought that they were already running late for the vote. (No one was going to hold up the vote waiting for the High Priest of Hel to appear, since no one knew there was such a thing).

I could buy HPoHel fast-vamping some people and handing Malack's staff over with instructions to use it to fast-vamp others, that's the only real way I can see it working. The only problem is HPoHel showing up in 997 with what appeared to be Malack's staff.

***

Also, the good news is that only ONE Vampire can be High Priest of Hel at a time. Only one priest and two bodyguards are allowed in here. The rest? They're intruders, and the clerics should be free to assist in wiping them out.

[HolyDraconus]

Interesting. And by proclaiming how the church works, its possible every single vamp is protected by the rules due to any of them at any time being able to become high priest. So interference from the other clergy is still unlikely, and Roy may have to fight each of them solo because of it. Get that green boost ready, I suppose.

[Ruck]

okay so aparently this is really complicated question

WHERE DOES IT SAY THAT MEMBERS OF THE CREED OF THE STONE ARE ALLOWED ACCESS INTO THE CATHEDRAL (including the voting area) THAT CANNOT BE REVOKED AT ANY POINT IN TIME AND SUPERCEDES ANY OTHER RULES SET UP IN THE GODSMOOT

Where does it say it CAN be revoked? Why is it on other people to disprove a hypothesis you haven't provided any evidence for?

It's certainly possible that the rules of the Godsmoot say the vampirized Creed of Stone are no longer neutral clerics, but there's no specific evidence for it, and so far all you've done is a) assert it over and over and b) demand people prove a negative.

[Wowlock]

I know the rules of the moot but come on now. You can't literally show hostile actions against other representatives + the whole dwarven race and just get away with a technicality. O.o We need that big High Cleric battle or I will be quite disappointed >_>

Besides, Hel showing her hand like this would put her into the 'Dog house' of her pantheon to the point where she MUST be punished in some way.

[Pyrous]

Indeed.

I am a bit concerned that his prophecy from the Oracle hasn't been fulfilled literally yet, but we may see Belkar hack his way to the front of the line yet.
The prophecy may work to his advantage, if he's drained and converted.
We've seen Durkon's losing struggle against Durkula.
But we've also seen 2/3 of Belkar's conscience. Is one vampire really expecting a match against two devils and a slaad, or even remotely prepared?


He's a halfling, he's supposed to be jolly...
Why isn't he jolly?
WHY ISN'T HE JOLLY???

[wyrmhole]

I know the rules of the moot but come on now. You can't literally show hostile actions against other representatives + the whole dwarven race and just get away with a technicality. O.o We need that big High Cleric battle or I will be quite disappointed >_>

Besides, Hel showing her hand like this would put her into the 'Dog house' of her pantheon to the point where she MUST be punished in some way.

Oh come on, you know the comic doesn't have the special effects budget (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0456.html) for that!

[lukewarm]

"Hereby"

I'd expect of a lot of jockeying for position in a frontarchy. Still better than a firstarchy.

[goodpeople25]

Great strip!:smallbiggrin:
And am i the only one loving Gontorhel here? It's a little thing but that smile he gives when the fHPoH says he needs him, and that arm cross along with the punch line is just awesome to me.


But Honestly are we still debating perceived rule violations? And some of these seem to sound like things that might be dealt with in future comics to paraphrase the Giant.
And as for the creed of blood's status under the moot, they just rushed in here even if they are in violation what's the point in regards to this comic? Do you think that the barrier should keep them out despite it never being stated to able to do that? Or that the high priests have magic rule violator senses that let them know these are rule violaters and to negate being snuck up on? Or the violaters getting giant glowing Smite Me signs?
Anyway my point is the rules seem to be governed/enforced by the high priests (and possibly some are them are delegated to the neutral party/ushers) not by the gods or magic. And enforcing something that isn't a direct violation could quite possibly cause a free for all to break out and i think most of the priests want to avoid that.
And do we even know for sure if their is a punishment to the God's vote, if their followers commit a rule violation that dosen't cause their priests to go boom? Taking a god's vote away seems something they wouldn't/couldn't do. And for the new HPoH killing her for entering the main part when not the HP seems extreme especially since by that logic they have to kill Roy too.

[wyrmhole]

And for the new HPoH killing her for entering the main part when not the HP seems extreme especially since by that logic they have to kill Roy too.

Haha, now that idea I actually like.

HPoOdin: "Sorry but the rules say all of you must be punished. Don't worry; we'll resurrect you along with all the turned vampires once the Moot is over."

Roy: *sigh*

[PallentisLunam]

Haha, now that idea I actually like.

HPoOdin: "Sorry but the rules say all of you must be punished. Don't worry; we'll resurrect you along with all the turned vampires once the Moot is over."

Roy: *sigh*

That would require tens of thousands of GP in diamonds...... but on the other hand maybe the creed of stone would have large quantities of diamonds as holy relics

[Onyavar]

Also, if HPoH is not HPoH anymore, how do we call him now?

Undurkon.


1. Staff of many charges.
2. Just how much time did Durkula have to track down all of the stone clerics and ushers without attracting Roy's attention for the delay of getting into the nave?
3. The inane conversation with Veldrina's bodyguard (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0996.html) and the exposition/pontificating by various deities took how long? (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0999.html)

Once again smells of "DM Kraft" (in reference to company who makes cheese of dubious origin)

Oh well, the plot will move along next week.

You sum it up nicely. There was no way enough time and left charges (by my assumption!) that Undurkon created 12 vampires (or more) between comics 996 and 997. UNLESS, maybe Durkon found a dummy staff and sent one of his higher level buddies to use the REAL staff of Malack on all dead bodies they could create. That would explain at least how he could hunt down so many.

Of course, nothing is impossible! Still, it means WHOA, Malack had a freaky power-staff - remember, each insta-vampire took several charges, and it was already used a few times before. No wonder that Tarquin dismissed his concerns about wasting the mummies.


One cleric + two bodyguards. That could be up to 3 clerics. But only one as a representative.

Exactly. I wonder how Undurkon plans to circumvent that rule. He'd need to immediately leave the knave with all but 3 vampires who may stay behind. Otherwise, the former ushers are fair game (like they were to Undurkon)!

[Kalirren]

Wait. If Durkula just abdicated, he's -not- Hel's representative anymore, and the other priests & bodyguards can blast him. They may well do just that. I dunno about any of the other vampires, but Durkula is in trouble.

[shepwy]

Dang, Durkula got busy off-screen with the whole vampire-making thing. Not sure even Belkar will be much help at this point. :smalleek:

[PallentisLunam]

Wait. If Durkula just abdicated, he's -not- Hel's representative anymore, and the other priests & bodyguards can blast him. They may well do just that. I dunno about any of the other vampires, but Durkula is in trouble.

But he is still a member of the church of Hel, which technically so is Roy, and that's where the protection comes from. Not just from being high priest.

[Basement Cat]

Eleven! 11 mighty vampires, ah ah ah!

I think I'm the only one who got your Sesame Street Count Von Count reference. Probably because of the season. :smallwink:

OT: Legitimate question: Are the other vampires high enough to cast Proxy when the time comes? Moreover would any of them have it prepared?

There's no way Rich would permit a plot hole like that, after all. :smallbiggrin:

[Peelee]

1)Ushers get free reign of the entire complex. Well, show me the Godsmoot rule that says an usher stops being an usher simply because said usher converts to another God and/or it gains a template.

...

That's right. You can't show me that rule, now can you. :smalltongue:


Actually, I can.

The Creed of the Stone is a religious sect that worships Elemental Earth itself. They're administering this meeting as a neutral third party. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0994.html)

So, the church of Hel and the Creed of the Stone are distinctly separate religious bodies. Changing religion thus changes administrator status, stripping ushers of their free-reign ability.

Booyakasha!

[KorvinStarmast]

Never underestimate the belkster
I think you mean Belkie (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0622.html) :smallcool:


You sum it up nicely. There was no way enough time and left charges (by my assumption!) that Undurkon created 12 vampires (or more) between comics 996 and 997.

Of course, nothing is impossible! Still, it means WHOA, Malack had a freaky power-staff - remember, each insta-vampire took several charges, and it was already used a few times before. No wonder that Tarquin dismissed his concerns about wasting the mummies.

1. As I puzzle over this, it is possible that Durkon/Durkula spent some of the off screen time on the airship, between the death of Malack and arrival at Godsmoot, recharging staff charges. (I am not sure how that works in 3.5e, so I won't hazard a guess) If this evil plot of Hel's is a serious plot that has been brewing for some time, having that staff charged up would be a prequel, required step zero, before entering the moot.

2. I don't get a sense of how much time passes while the various are channeled and proxies happen and they go on to state their positions ... that is the time period wherein Durkula has the chance to convert quite a few, or at least get a few converted/raised/staffed and then pass the staff to others who then keep it going.
But as noted by someone else, they may be just a distraction in the larger plan to get him and GonToHel out of the moot and into the Dwarven lands to get shaggy with some death and destruction per the prophecy.

The frames are read, but how long each frame takes in time ... :smallconfused:

[PallentisLunam]

I think you mean Belkie (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0622.html) :smallcool:

His most worshipful barefoot majesty?

[KorvinStarmast]

His most worshipful barefoot majesty?

I don't think we can use "majesty" as an honorific as he is some kind of semi-deity (Sexy Barefoot God of War, not King of War) but his most worshipful deity of barefoot carnage and slaughter should not be underestimated.

As his compadre Mr Scruffy is already laying waste to various rodents on the ship, one per panel, without breaking a sweat (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1014.html), a little parallelism with Belkar getting shaggy and shivvy with various miscreants when he reappears on screen would be apt.

[multilis]

If Hel can attack the ushers, then others can attack the ushers. As well the former High priest of Hel has given up diplomatic immunity so anyone with fast draw could block teleport away, and try to kill. As far as battle between the gods goes, Hel has struck first.

Do the other high priests really want to wait till this group gets all their spells recharged next day? Makes most sense to at least eliminate all but the new high priestess as soon as possible.

[schmunzel]

...
I think, finally, after so long of reading this comic, that I begin to develop an understanding of what the actual outline of it's overall story.
This is a story about how a group of 6 dysfunctional, wisecracking, 4th-wall breaking group of stick figures, are in charge of the extinction of everything and everyone on the entire planet.
Just a hunch.

I told you that would I be Hel, I just would let them have a go at that last gate.

sch

[Tolvan]

Oh, crud. That can't be good...

[rman]

Hel's plan hinges on getting a binding vote in favor of ending the world, which hinges on her priest's vote, which hinges on her and her priest following the rules and not getting evicted. Which is why, as she said, she has studied the rules. So she could exploit them.

The Dwarven guy, Davlin first King of the Dwarves, is going to listen to the Dwarven council. Except if the council gets vamped they are *rules exploit* for the don't destroy the world side, no longer dwarves, so no longer members of the Dwarven council.

So the real threat has to be something other than vamping the council. Also the threat has to be worse than destroying the world. Because if they vote yes then the world gets destroyed. And to freely vote they have to be correctly apprised of the options.

*rules exploit* for Hel, do they have to be properly informed to vote. The Dwarven God said he would listen to the council. Will his Dwarven Oath require him to listen to the council even if they are coerced or deceived?

[wolfdreams01]

I feel like Durkon has been stretching the rules quite a bit and they should be totally at the breaking point by this strip. After all, if he can leave and have his vote count by simply "assigning a replacement high priest" then what is to stop any other priest from changing their vote by doing the same thing? It's not really fair DMing when the villains can exploit a rule but PCs aren't allowed to take advantage of it.

I recognize that this exactly isn't a D&D campaign, but still, it feels a bit hokey to me. Of course, I'm not a mind-reader maybe Rich will turn all this around in the next strip when we see the consequences of Durkon's plan, but I can only react to what we as the audience are aware of at the present moment.

[Keltest]

I feel like Durkon has been stretching the rules quite a bit and they should be totally at the breaking point by this strip. After all, if he can leave and have his vote count by simply "assigning a replacement high priest" then what is to stop any other priest from changing their vote by doing the same thing? It's not really fair DMing when the villains can exploit a rule but PCs aren't allowed to take advantage of it.

I recognize that this exactly isn't a D&D campaign, but still, it feels a bit hokey to me. Of course, I'm not a mind-reader maybe Rich will turn all this around in the next strip when we see the consequences of Durkon's plan, but I can only react to what we as the audience are aware of at the present moment.

Durkon isn't changing his vote. Other than that, I agree, if Durkon's plan works totally as advertised beyond the order's interference, im going to be less than impressed.

[wyrmhole]

The Dwarven guy, Davlin first King of the Dwarves, is going to listen to the Dwarven council. Except if the council gets vamped they are *rules exploit* for the don't destroy the world side, no longer dwarves, so no longer members of the Dwarven council.

So the real threat has to be something other than vamping the council. Also the threat has to be worse than destroying the world. Because if they vote yes then the world gets destroyed. And to freely vote they have to be correctly apprised of the options.

*rules exploit* for Hel, do they have to be properly informed to vote. The Dwarven God said he would listen to the council. Will his Dwarven Oath require him to listen to the council even if they are coerced or deceived?

I've been assuming the plan was to Dominate the council into voting yes. With whatever means is used to convey that vote, possible Swirly Eye Giveaway problems, and knowledge of whether Dvalin would be oath-bound to listen to the council even if dominated factored into the plan somehow.

[Grey Watcher]

I think I'm the only one who got your Sesame Street Count Von Count reference. Probably because of the season. :smallwink:

Oh I got it. I just felt compelled to one-up it.

[eilandesq]

My thought is that the vampires are meant to be a distraction to let Durkula make his getaway--I will be seriously surprised if the priests (a large majority of whom at this point probably would be inclined to stop Hel's scheme as would their deities) will be inclined to suffer the presence of a (at best) not sanctioned gang of vamped HelClerics on the loose at the Godsmoot. However, blowing them up will take some time if collateral damage is to be avoided. The question is if the new HPoH can hold out in the A-L shell for long enough to get the vote done.

[Rogar Demonblud]

The Antilife shell is disappearing with Durkon. He's the one who cast it. One of these clerics is going to have to go gaseous and hide up high to survive what Roy's about to uncork, otherwise the vote thing gets resolved.

[8BitNinja]

Everyone's 500,000th favorite paladin is back (that's me) after my christmas break

Can we call Simon Belmont now? I'll get some candlesticks and chicken in place for him

[Thunder'sFall]

Oh, geez. How are they possibly going to get out of this situation?

[toapat]

Oh my. That's a lot of vampire clerics.
I wonder how many levels new HPoH has. If Roy is still a bodyguard, he better start slashing her right away.
Also, if HPoH is not HPoH anymore, how do we call him now?


Hel's Priest formerly known as High

[Keltest]

Oh, geez. How are they possibly going to get out of this situation?

Off the top of my head, the room full of clerics (who just heard Durkon explain how he is not the original entity, only evil) might have something to say to a group of undead who aren't allowed to be in there.

[Silverionmox]

Good luck figuring out which of them are not a bodyguard before they teleport to dwarven lands.

None, until they have been announced as such. They cannot be announced as such because it would require Roy and Belkar, who currently are taking up the bodyguards slots, to abdicate. If the High Priest could appoint and dismiss bodyguards at will, he would have gotten rid of Roy (and Belkar) a lot sooner.

[GAZ]

This is how I see the present situation: The front vampire is the High Priest of Hel and the only enemy Roy is allowed to attack. She can attack him without fear of repercussion from the gathered clerics. If Roy manages to cut her down, the second vampire is now HPoH by rules of frontarchy. Any vampire other the current front of the line can claim to still be a member of the Creed of the Stone and a neutral usher. Those vampires are safe from the gathered clerics as long as they don't attack first. As soon as a HPoH falls, the next vampire claims to be a new convert of the Church of Hel and frontarch High Priest. I don't think the good guys can win by rules lawyer-ing, since the bad guys have all the angles covered.

[PallentisLunam]

This is how I see the present situation: The front vampire is the High Priest of Hel and the only enemy Roy is allowed to attack. She can attack him without fear of repercussion from the gathered clerics. If Roy manages to cut her down, the second vampire is now HPoH by rules of frontarchy. Any vampire other the current front of the line can claim to still be a member of the Creed of the Stone and a neutral usher. Those vampires are safe from the gathered clerics as long as they don't attack first. As soon as a HPoH falls, the next vampire claims to be a new convert of the Church of Hel and frontarch High Priest. I don't think the good guys can win by rules lawyer-ing, since the bad guys have all the angles covered.

The purest embodiment of Lawful Evil

[Shoelessgdowar]

"You can't leave all those vampires in here, this is against the rules!"

"Don't be foolish. Why would I want to do that? They're coming with me."

((Vampires enter through the shell and teleport away))

Slight problem with that plan. They have to get past Roy, and once one triggers an AoO by passing by him, they all die from Great Cleavage, including the New HPoH, poof, Hel loses. This was a huge mistake. They broke the rules by entering. Durkula should have told them to get the orb and go on ahead without him, while he kept up the ruse. Also, forget Dwarven Lands... they can't port out, the lock is on the departure, not the arrival.

Rule 1: Only one non-bodyguard Priest of each Deity may enter as the High Priest.
Rule 2: Only two bodyguards (either of both of which may be a Priest) per Representative

Rule 1: Durkula is the one Priest
Rule 2: Belkar and Roy are the bodyguards.

Every new Vampire that entered, including the new HPoH is in violation. As soon as Durkon abdicates, he is in violation as he is no longer the High Priest. All Vampires are in violation, the New High Priest did not vote before being in violation, Hel's vote is negated before she has a valid representative again. Vote Carries, world spared, Vampires are violators and executed. Hel has no Priests again. Roy has Durkula True Resurrected.

[eilandesq]

This is how I see the present situation: The front vampire is the High Priest of Hel and the only enemy Roy is allowed to attack. She can attack him without fear of repercussion from the gathered clerics. If Roy manages to cut her down, the second vampire is now HPoH by rules of frontarchy. Any vampire other the current front of the line can claim to still be a member of the Creed of the Stone and a neutral usher. Those vampires are safe from the gathered clerics as long as they don't attack first. As soon as a HPoH falls, the next vampire claims to be a new convert of the Church of Hel and frontarch High Priest. I don't think the good guys can win by rules lawyer-ing, since the bad guys have all the angles covered.

The trick is to not let the vampires who haven't uttered a sound do so:

--clerics vaporize all of the vampires but the one in front (though it will mean bypassing useful spells like sunburst, since that would probably hit everyone in the room;

--Roy (hopefully) carves up the HPoH quickly (now that he knows the trick, he can probably get himself worked up again with less problem).

The main risk is that the HPoH quickly mistforms and heads to the ceiling.

[PallentisLunam]

Slight problem with that plan. They have to get past Roy, and once one triggers an AoO by passing by him, they all die from Great Cleavage, including the New HPoH, poof, Hel loses. This was a huge mistake. They broke the rules by entering. Durkula should have told them to get the orb and go on ahead without him, while he kept up the ruse. Also, forget Dwarven Lands... they can't port out, the lock is on the departure, not the arrival.

Rule 1: Only one non-bodyguard Priest of each Deity may enter as the High Priest.
Rule 2: Only two bodyguards (either of both of which may be a Priest) per Representative

Rule 1: Durkula is the one Priest
Rule 2: Belkar and Roy are the bodyguards.

Every new Vampire that entered, including the new HPoH is in violation. As soon as Durkon abdicates, he is in violation as he is no longer the High Priest. All Vampires are in violation, the New High Priest did not vote before being in violation, Hel's vote is negated before she has a valid representative again. Vote Carries, world spared, Vampires are violators and executed. Hel has no Priests again. Roy has Durkula True Resurrected.

There's no way it's that simple after all of Hel's planning.

[Myta]

Any vampire other the current front of the line can claim to still be a member of the Creed of the Stone and a neutral usher. Those vampires are safe from the gathered clerics as long as they don't attack first.

Well they can claim it, but these claims can be ignored since they are nonsense. Anyone can attack them.
We can safely assume that there is no rule that states that if someone gets vamped he keeps the same status. Its also safe to assume that letting them keep their status after they are not neutral anymore, hell not even the same person anymore, just an evil spirit posessing the body, violates the spirit of any law there is concerning the neutrals.
It might be possible that some rules could be interpreted in such a way, but unless you are lawful evil, there is no reason to do so.

[Silverionmox]

This assumes that all the priests will want to help dust or hold off vampires, which isn't true.

All the vampires that are neither high priest nor bodyguard are in violation of the Godsmoot rules, which are taken seriously. If they aren't, they would face attempts at hostile takeover at every single one.


It assumes that Roy is still a bodyguard, and that bodyguard goes with the office being guarded rather than the person being guarded, which may or may not be true.

If that was true then Hel's High Priest could have gotten rid of both Roy and Belkar a lot earlier.



It assumes that the priests are willing to closely read the rules we don't have and that we don't know what they say about vampires,

No. Entering the Godsmoot is restricted to one high priest and two bodyguards per god. That is a well-known and clear rule.



and come to the conclusion you want them to come to rather than the one that story structure says they are going to come to.

The structure of reality says that all food that you eat turns to **** eventually, that night comes after day and everyone dies... but that's not a reason to eat ****, to never get out of bed or to commit suicide. Point is that inaction on part of all of the high priests would require an additional motivation, which probably is yet to come.



It's in fact still perfectly reasonable for the priests to say, "Well, we can't do anything because the Ushers are allowed to be here and that cleric is the High Priest of Hel." In fact that's at least as reasonable under the rules as we know them as anything else, and its the option that leads the story to the next point, so...

As per the established loophole, Roy has the right to attack Hel's High Priest without interference. If the ushers (assuming that the collected high priests of *the* undead-savvy class of one third of the world are totally clueless about vampirism or undead soul changes, which puts a stretch on my suspension of disbelief to begin with) intervene, they're attacking a legal attendant of the godsmoot and therefore will be in violation and need to be removed. But you're just making the assumption that the ushers are allowed inside, even though there's no reason at all to assume that.

Hell, just a simple "detect alignment" can verify that these guys certainly aren't the neutral ushers they used to be... plenty of paladins in the audience that haven't got anything else to do.

[Neoriceisgood]

Gonna get an all out brawl with the other body guards now, or what?


OOTS pages always make me want the next one.:smalltongue:

[JSSheridan]

Thanks Giant!

[Jasdoif]

All Vampires are in violation, the New High Priest did not vote before being in violation, Hel's vote is negated before she has a valid representative again.The votes don't belong to the high priests, they belong to the gods. Hel's vote still stands as long as she has a high priest in the room.

[Myta]

But Shoelessgdowar is still right in that the new high priest already violated the rules. He entered while being neither high priest nor bodyguard.
Thus it might be valid to remove him, hight priest or not.

[Renegade Paladin]

Roy's still the bodyguard of the High Priest of Hel, and for all the other high priests the rest of them are chaff who have no business in the chamber. I somehow doubt any of the lesser clerics of the Creed of Stone are a match for Durkula - or by extension, Roy.

[JT]

The trick is to not let the vampires who haven't uttered a sound do so:

--clerics vaporize all of the vampires but the one in front (though it will mean bypassing useful spells like sunburst, since that would probably hit everyone in the room;

To paraphrase a certain (f)HPoH... "The church of _____ cannot be held liable if a sunburst just so happens to ignite above where you foolishly chose to stand."


Not likely to happen quite that way, but my guess is that the other high priests are going to start bending the rules as well, since Hel's decision to have her priest forcibly convert the Creed of Stone priests to bother her faith and her preferred (non)life type is past minor bends or internal church conflict. The (new)HPoH is probably safe, as are her two bodyguards, but the former Creedite ushers, and the Exarch, and the (f)HPoH should all be targets.

My further guess is that the (f)HPoH escapes destruction from this, because having NPCs resolve the main conflict here trivializes the OOTS.

[wyrmhole]

Oh, geez. How are they possibly going to get out of this situation?

With the teleport orb, obviously.

Oh wait, you meant the good guys. Yeah, no idea. ;)

[Jasdoif]

But Shoelessgdowar is still right in that the new high priest already violated the rules. He entered while being neither high priest nor bodyguard.
Thus it might be valid to remove him, hight priest or not.To remove him, sure. The newly designated high priestess of Hel, however, now has a formal role and is supposed to remain sequestered. Removing her would be invalid.

There could be a rule indicating she should be removed for unauthorized entry, and there could be a bylaw stating the removal takes precedence over the sequestering. Lacking either, though, the rules of the Godsmoot offer her protection from the other high priests and their bodyguards.

[Kryztyfyr]

Eleven! 11 mighty vampires, ah ah ah!

I also got this joke!

Truly, the real horror begins when The Count appears! Congratulations, that's the only time I feel happy about having watched Sesame Street. :smallbiggrin:

--Christopher Chance

[subanark]

Hel has most likely thought through this plan pretty well. So it is unlikely that she or any of her vampires are willingly breaking the rules.

Not sure if there is any rule about the Ushers fighting with the body guards though. So it could be Roy up against a bunch of possibly low level vampires. However, Roy may be able to talk himself out of this if the vampires have been freed. Or maybe one of the high priests will find a loophole and assist Roy.

Pretty sure this is far from over with, as we all want to see how the dwarven council is manipulated. Rule of story telling: If a plan fail it does so at the end or the beginning (usually comedy), never in the middle.

[schmunzel]

Actually, I can.

The Creed of the Stone is a religious sect that worships Elemental Earth itself. They're administering this meeting as a neutral third party. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0994.html)

So, the church of Hel and the Creed of the Stone are distinctly separate religious bodies. Changing religion thus changes administrator status, stripping ushers of their free-reign ability.

Booyakasha!

The point is probably that they were Creed of Stone at the point in time they have been chosen to administer the meeting.
Now they wouldnt be chosen anymore. Which *might* be moot, as they already have been chosen.

But to cut the argument short, they apparently have been able to get through the barrier.
Which probably might be evidence that they are still seen as Ushers.
(At least by the shiny barrier that they likely cast themselves.)

Summed up this might mean, that there are no rules in place to cover the vampirization of the appointed Ushers, which *might* leave a loophole big enough to prevent the Priests from acting.
Even the *fear* or *uncertainty* on what this situation might mean and how this situation should be handled *might be* enough to prevent the Priests from acting or trigger *undefined* responses.
Perhaps in several (unforseen) ways ??

I would laugh if the dwarfs at the end of the ark vote (under domination) for world destruction and the Godsmoot greetet the incoming vote with a disqualification of Hel for cheating :P

sch

[Peelee]

The point is probably that they were Creed of Stone at the point in time they have been chosen to administer the meeting.
Now they wouldnt be chosen anymore. Which *might* be moot, as they already have been chosen.

But to cut the argument short, they apparently have been able to get through the barrier.
Which probably might be evidence that they are still seen as Ushers.
(At least by the shiny barrier that they likely cast themselves.)

Summed up this might mean, that there are no rules in place to cover the vampirization of the appointed Ushers, which *might* leave a loophole big enough to prevent the Priests from acting.
Even the *fear* or *uncertainty* on what this situation might mean and how this situation should be handled *might be* enough to prevent the Priests from acting or trigger *undefined* responses.
Perhaps in several (unforseen) ways ??

I would laugh if the dwarfs at the end of the ark vote (under domination) for world destruction and the Godsmoot greetet the incoming vote with a disqualification of Hel for cheating :P

sch

Conflict of interest is a usually a continuous requirement; just because you were exempt at the start doesn't mean that it applies permanently. I have yet to see any claim that negated this, though your argument that they were able to get through the barrier comes damn close (I have had some suspicions about the barrier since it first went up).

[Zmeoaice]

Well I suppose there have been worse forms of government than a frontacracy.

[PallentisLunam]

Well I suppose there have been worse forms of government than a frontacracy.

A backarchy comes to mind.

[Xihirli]

You know, when Durkula first rose he only had a few spells left because Durkon had already used his. And we KNOW that most of the members of the Stone Church used up their high-level spells. Roy should be able to finish them off before Durkula and the other guy get back.

[ScHClutter]

So, something that I feel people are overlooking in this situation is that since they are such a large group of vampires, they could presumably drag down one or two high priests who voted "no" to world destruction before they all get dusted (although possibly not, I will admit I'm not super familiar with D&D rules). So even if they're breaking rules, what does it matter? Attacking them is risking speeding up world destruction. Effectively, they're enforcing their own variation of the rules through sheer numbers.
Also, I didn't read all the way through the thread, so if someone already pointed this out, or debunked this idea, my bad.

[wyrmhole]

You know, when Durkula first rose he only had a few spells left because Durkon had already used his. And we KNOW that most of the members of the Stone Church used up their high-level spells. Roy should be able to finish them off before Durkula and the other guy get back.

Ugh, no, it's the Church of Creed! It used to be the Church of Apollo, but when the Snarl destroyed the East/Greek pantheon Apollo escaped by using his last name and pretending not to be a god anymore, but a mortal boxer.

;)

[Thanatosia]

That is a lot of charges in the staff!

1. Staff of many charges.

How many charges does that staff have?

Heavens, how many charges does that staff have?
Not sure why people seem to think the stave charges are an issue. Staves have 50 charges normally, and the only spells we've seen it use are the protection from sunlight and rapid vamping ones. Malak prepared and used the protection from sunlight out of his normal spellslots and so only had it in the staff for dispell situations; and he hadn't created progeny since Nale killed his brood years ago. So the staff seemed an emergency backup plan kit for a vampire, rather then a tool of regular use, so it was probably nearly fully charged.

[Kish]

Oh, geez. How are they possibly going to get out of this situation?
(Let me state up-front that this post is not about being annoyed by Thunder'sFall and that I have nothing against Thunder'sFall.)

Clearly, now, they'll finally declare that the rules state that the former High Priest of Hel has no right to exist and, in fact, neither does any other vampire. The gods will then erase all vampires from existence, and erase Hel for ever daring to have a vampire priest. The rest of this book will be nothing but humorous scenes of vampires getting blown up.

Or maybe every keystroke dedicated to the "the vampires are breaking the rules!" idea is a pointless waste, the former High Priest of Hel will teleport out with the Exarch, and the rest of this book will be about the Order going after them to stop Hel's scheme in a way that doesn't hinge on her scheme being invalid from the start.

I have no clue which of these will be the case, but I bet Rich knows.

I know the rules of the moot but come on now. You can't literally show hostile actions against other representatives + the whole dwarven race and just get away with a technicality. O.o We need that big High Cleric battle or I will be quite disappointed >_>

Besides, Hel showing her hand like this would put her into the 'Dog house' of her pantheon to the point where she MUST be punished in some way.
This argument hinges on the belief that the gods as a group favor Lawful Good. It's one of the top reasons why I hate Dragonlance (the High God).

Chaotic Evil deities are just as legitimate in the Godsmoot as Lawful Good ones. Everyone there understands and accepts that Fenris wants them to die horribly and that a significant proportion of the gods have intentions which can only be diplomatically described as baleful toward mortals in general. No one makes an issue of "How dare you try to promote your portfolio and its agenda!" because, even presuming some gods care more about mortals as individuals than the callous Thor, they know that's what created the Snarl. And Death is not an invalid portfolio.

[GreatWyrmGold]

*shrug*
Makes sense to me. Rather brilliantly, actually. Again, IMO. Mostly because I am quite familiar with the concept of twisting crazy rules to suit ones purposes (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0278.html). :smallwink:
I'm familiar with the concept, too. I'm also familiar with the concept of taking concepts too far.


Maybe the ushers being there is against the rules, and the rest of the Godsmoot will deal with it at some later time, instead of the nanosecond they step into the hall uninvited.
But maybe they still count as ushers and are therefore allowed inside, as long as they behave. Sure, they're different souls and different people, and the gods know this. But the gods also know that's how they agreed vampirism worked: the vampire spirit pretty much takes over the victim's persona.
I suppose that's another topic of discussion—if the Godsmoot is screwed or if we're about to see all the butt a dozen High Priests can kick. (Sadly, there's not enough vampire for all of them.)


Assuming that is in fact how the rule goes....The Creeders had no protection from the rules of the Godsmoot (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0995.html) in the first place, so I'm not sure their alter transmogrified vampire egos would have less protection from the rules.
The Creeders didn't lack protection from the rules, they lacked protection from Durkon. Furthermore, the situation described doesn't involve "protection from the rules" at all—it involves a given group of people being on the short list of people allowed to enter the Godsmoot temple. The high priests and their bodyguards are allowed in for obvious reasons, the Creeders are allowed in because they made the temple, the vampires wearing their husks are not either group and hence are presumably not allowed.


Oh come on, you know the comic doesn't have the special effects budget (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0456.html) for that!
The animation budget's skyrocketed since then—why not the SFX one?


But he is still a member of the church of Hel, which technically so is Roy, and that's where the protection comes from. Not just from being high priest.
The first panels of the second page of 994 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0994.html) say "representative," and all other mentions of the rules refer to the representative of the gods (sometimes referring to them with synonyms like "priest," but "representative" can't mean just any priest).


1. As I puzzle over this, it is possible that Durkon/Durkula spent some of the off screen time on the airship, between the death of Malack and arrival at Godsmoot, recharging staff charges. (I am not sure how that works in 3.5e, so I won't hazard a guess).
I don't think there are official rules for it anywhere in 3.5. Definitely not in core.


2. I don't get a sense of how much time passes while the various are channeled and proxies happen and they go on to state their positions ... that is the time period wherein Durkula has the chance to convert quite a few, or at least get a few converted/raised/staffed and then pass the staff to others who then keep it going.
Typical speaking rates are, IIRC, 70-100 words per minute. (I know the upper bound is right.) Round down to 50 to account for pauses, and assume the High Priest of Odin isn't taking long breaks whenever Roy and Wrecan talk (except when they interrupt), and assuming the mean speech bubble has about 10 words (and counting larger ones as more and smaller less—I'm not an idiot), then 997 takes about two minutes, 998 about nine, and 999 about seven. Round up two minutes for things like the extended shocked pause at the beginning of 998 and we have twenty minutes. Obviously, this is only a rough estimate, but we can safely assume the Godsmoot took about 20 minutes from when Roy and Wrecan entered to when Durkula followed. Throw a few on a few minutes for the two fighters getting to the temple and a sizable error bar and we can guess Durkula had 20-30 minutes to do his dastardly deeds.
This is, of course, meaningless without some estimate of how long it takes the vampire to find and turn each cleric, but given the size of the temple (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0992.html), I'm guessing it would take multiple minutes for each (with the finding and catching-up-to steps taking most of that time, and said time getting longer as the Creeders' ranks dwindled).
A liberal estimate suggests Durkon just has enough time to turn the dozen-ish vampires we see. He definitely does if he found a break room where several Creeders were relaxing, but I'm not sure Durkon could resist several decent turn-undead effects or spells cast on him each round for long enough to turn them. And this assumes the spells Durkon needed to cast on them didn't take more than a few rounds each—even a one-minute casting time cuts a third to a half off of his time.


*rules exploit* for Hel, do they have to be properly informed to vote. The Dwarven God said he would listen to the council. Will his Dwarven Oath require him to listen to the council even if they are coerced or deceived?
That depends on if Dvalin cares about what the dwarves actually want or if he is just obligated to ask them. Considering that, being the First King of the Dwarves, he used to be one...I'm guessing he cares. (And is also obligated, preventing him from doing the obvious thing.)


But Shoelessgdowar is still right in that the new high priest already violated the rules. He entered while being neither high priest nor bodyguard.
Thus it might be valid to remove him, hight priest or not.
With all the loopholery apparently working just in Hel's favor, I'd like to see the non-Hel gods at least try something like this. (Even if rule details or vampiric abilities prevent it from actually working.)
I mean, seriously Durkula, (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1009.html) "if a balcony just so happens to collapse"? You weren't even trying...


The point is probably that they were Creed of Stone at the point in time they have been chosen to administer the meeting.
Now they wouldnt be chosen anymore. Which *might* be moot, as they already have been chosen.
No, the dwarves who used to inhabit the husks which have been animated by Hel's vampiric spirits were chosen. Durkula has made it clear to both the readers and anyone at the Godsmoot who listens closely (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1011.html) (or believes one of Durkon's best friends, I guess) that his vampires ain't the originals.


But to cut the argument short, they apparently have been able to get through the barrier.
Which probably might be evidence that they are still seen as Ushers.
(At least by the shiny barrier that they likely cast themselves.)
The barrier at the entrance of the temple?
I'm pretty sure the rules stretch farther than the available spells.


So, something that I feel people are overlooking in this situation is that since they are such a large group of vampires, they could presumably drag down one or two high priests who voted "no" to world destruction before they all get dusted (although possibly not, I will admit I'm not super familiar with D&D rules). So even if they're breaking rules, what does it matter? Attacking them is risking speeding up world destruction. Effectively, they're enforcing their own variation of the rules through sheer numbers.
A few things worth noting. First, turn and rebuke undead are more available to the clerics than turn/rebuke clerics are to the undead. Second, the high priests presumably used fewer high-level spells on the way to the temple than the Creeders used to make it. Third, Hel would lose any remaining goodwill she had with any god if she showed such blatant disregard for the rules.


(Let me state up-front that this post is not about being annoyed by Thunder'sFall and that I have nothing against Thunder'sFall.)
Clearly, now, they'll finally declare that the rules state that the former High Priest of Hel has no right to exist and, in fact, neither does any other vampire. The gods will then erase all vampires from existence, and erase Hel for ever daring to have a vampire priest. The rest of this book will be nothing but humorous scenes of vampires getting blown up.
Or maybe every keystroke dedicated to the "the vampires are breaking the rules!" idea is a pointless waste, the former High Priest of Hel will teleport out with the Exarch, and the rest of this book will be about the Order going after them to stop Hel's scheme in a way that doesn't hinge on her scheme being invalid from the start.
I have no clue which of these will be the case, but I bet Rich knows.
There are ways for Hel's plan to succeed without X action being within the rules of the Godsmoot.


This argument hinges on the belief that the gods as a group favor Lawful Good. It's one of the top reasons why I hate Dragonlance (the High God).
Chaotic Evil deities are just as legitimate in the Godsmoot as Lawful Good ones. Everyone there understands and accepts that Fenris wants them to die horribly and that a significant proportion of the gods have intentions which can only be diplomatically described as baleful toward mortals in general. No one makes an issue of "How dare you try to promote your portfolio and its agenda!" because, even presuming some gods care more about mortals as individuals than the callous Thor, they know that's what created the Snarl. And Death is not an invalid portfolio.
Wait...why does alignment matter? Thor and Loki are both against destroying the world. The ones who want to destroy the world don't have obvious alignments (to those unfamiliar with Norse mythology, at least), but if the gods of Fire Giant and Monsters as well as those of Valkyries and the Watch both want to, I'd say it's not an alignment-specific issue either way. Evil ain't a big happy family.

[eilandesq]

(Let me state up-front that this post is not about being annoyed by Thunder'sFall and that I have nothing against Thunder'sFall.)

Clearly, now, they'll finally declare that the rules state that the former High Priest of Hel has no right to exist and, in fact, neither does any other vampire. The gods will then erase all vampires from existence, and erase Hel for ever daring to have a vampire priest. The rest of this book will be nothing but humorous scenes of vampires getting blown up.

Or maybe every keystroke dedicated to the "the vampires are breaking the rules!" idea is a pointless waste, the former High Priest of Hel will teleport out with the Exarch, and the rest of this book will be about the Order going after them to stop Hel's scheme in a way that doesn't hinge on her scheme being invalid from the start.

I have no clue which of these will be the case, but I bet Rich knows.

This argument hinges on the belief that the gods as a group favor Lawful Good. It's one of the top reasons why I hate Dragonlance (the High God).

Chaotic Evil deities are just as legitimate in the Godsmoot as Lawful Good ones. Everyone there understands and accepts that Fenris wants them to die horribly and that a significant proportion of the gods have intentions which can only be diplomatically described as baleful toward mortals in general. No one makes an issue of "How dare you try to promote your portfolio and its agenda!" because, even presuming some gods care more about mortals as individuals than the callous Thor, they know that's what created the Snarl. And Death is not an invalid portfolio.

I think the objection is more that the major purpose of the rules of the Godsmoot is to keep gods and their lackeys from screwing around and subverting the vote, because any of the gods could find themselves on the wrong end of a particular set of shenanigans (and even in the case at hand, there are presumably a substantial number of evil Northern gods who are getting their dwarf souls confiscated if Hel prevails, too.) The current sequence of events suggests that the dominant sentiment in the room is going to go towards finding a way to thwart Hel, because there are gods on the "yes" side who would change votes if they could (Heimdall, at least), and the evil gods on the "no" side either don't want to help Hel either, or have their own reasons for voting "No" and helping Hel just isn't important enough to them.

Also, there's a certain high priest of a sun god in that room who doesn't want to go against his god (even if it means the literal end of the world), but who probably would really like to smite the heck out of a bunch of vampires whose continued existence isn't required to follow his god's wishes, and who has just the right portfolio to do it without real effort.

[goodpeople25]

(Let me state up-front that this post is not about being annoyed by Thunder'sFall and that I have nothing against Thunder'sFall.)

Clearly, now, they'll finally declare that the rules state that the former High Priest of Hel has no right to exist and, in fact, neither does any other vampire. The gods will then erase all vampires from existence, and erase Hel for ever daring to have a vampire priest. The rest of this book will be nothing but humorous scenes of vampires getting blown up.

Or maybe every keystroke dedicated to the "the vampires are breaking the rules!" idea is a pointless waste, the former High Priest of Hel will teleport out with the Exarch, and the rest of this book will be about the Order going after them to stop Hel's scheme in a way that doesn't hinge on her scheme being invalid from the start.

I have no clue which of these will be the case, but I bet Rich knows.

This argument hinges on the belief that the gods as a group favor Lawful Good. It's one of the top reasons why I hate Dragonlance (the High God).

Chaotic Evil deities are just as legitimate in the Godsmoot as Lawful Good ones. Everyone there understands and accepts that Fenris wants them to die horribly and that a significant proportion of the gods have intentions which can only be diplomatically described as baleful toward mortals in general. No one makes an issue of "How dare you try to promote your portfolio and its agenda!" because, even presuming some gods care more about mortals as individuals than the callous Thor, they know that's what created the Snarl. And Death is not an invalid portfolio.
I pretty much agree, though i am slightly confused with the callous Thor part i mean sure most/some of the time he's irresponsible but recently he has been anything but callous so yeah I'm puzzled :smallconfused:

[Keltest]

(Let me state up-front that this post is not about being annoyed by Thunder'sFall and that I have nothing against Thunder'sFall.)

Clearly, now, they'll finally declare that the rules state that the former High Priest of Hel has no right to exist and, in fact, neither does any other vampire. The gods will then erase all vampires from existence, and erase Hel for ever daring to have a vampire priest. The rest of this book will be nothing but humorous scenes of vampires getting blown up.

Or maybe every keystroke dedicated to the "the vampires are breaking the rules!" idea is a pointless waste, the former High Priest of Hel will teleport out with the Exarch, and the rest of this book will be about the Order going after them to stop Hel's scheme in a way that doesn't hinge on her scheme being invalid from the start.

I have no clue which of these will be the case, but I bet Rich knows.

This argument hinges on the belief that the gods as a group favor Lawful Good. It's one of the top reasons why I hate Dragonlance (the High God).

Chaotic Evil deities are just as legitimate in the Godsmoot as Lawful Good ones. Everyone there understands and accepts that Fenris wants them to die horribly and that a significant proportion of the gods have intentions which can only be diplomatically described as baleful toward mortals in general. No one makes an issue of "How dare you try to promote your portfolio and its agenda!" because, even presuming some gods care more about mortals as individuals than the callous Thor, they know that's what created the Snarl. And Death is not an invalid portfolio.


I have no doubt that the story is not going to abruptly end with the clerics deciding "screw it" and vaporizing all the undead. However, at this exact moment in the story, we have a group of beings clerics are well equipped to deal with, a group of clerics who are generally inclined to antagonize or otherwise deal with the first group, and a set of rules that appear to say that they are allowed or possibly even required to.

From that, we can reasonably conclude that either an explanation of the rules will occur that specifies that no, they aren't allowed to, or they are allowed to and will commence with the destruction of 90+% of the Church of Hel. Hence the speculation.

[kojar]

I feel like this is dragging on for way too long. I hope it ends soon.

[IQubic]

Is that Veldrina as the new HPoH?!?! If so I see that a few things should happen soon:
1: Durkula gets kicked out of the moot for attacking another representative.
2: The Western Pantheon loses their vote.
3: The vote is now 1 for No (South) and 1 Undecided (North) and 1 Invalid (West).
4: The vote now proceeds to go to figuring out the state of the Northern Pantheon.
Then from there we get two options:
A: North votes Yes and we get a perfect tie 1 Yes and 1 No and 1 Invalid.
B: North votes No and the world is destroyed.

Though, if that's not Veldrina, then I place my bet on Roy's vote somehow becoming the final deciding factor, and Roy has to choose between Durkon and The World.

[Porthos]

Conflict of interest is a usually a continuous requirement; just because you were exempt at the start doesn't mean that it applies permanently. I have yet to see any claim that negated this, though your argument that they were able to get through the barrier comes damn close (I have had some suspicions about the barrier since it first went up).

The point is, you are presuming that if an usher coverts they stop being an usher. It's certainly a reasonable presumption. I just don't agree in this case. Especially since they got in somehow.

Still, I will say there is the possiblity that they aren't supposed to be there. Good thing (for them) that most of them can be gone in about six seconds time. :smalltongue:

====

The other thing to consider, as I said, is that I just refuse to think that "Durkon" is so stupid as to pull a gambit that is flatly against the rules.

He might have to argue his case and then port out with his fellows if he loses. Granted in advance. But I find it hard to believe that Baron von Sucksalot is so clueless as to not see the ramifications of what is going down.

Mind, I could be wrong. Often am. But I strongly suspect that what ever objections are made and whichever of them are actually upheld to "Durkon"'s detriment, it won't matter a heck of a lot when all is said and done.

To put it another way, what is the purpose of all these vamps if they're just gonna get dusted by everyone in the room? What is their purpose if it is gonna nullify Hel's vote?

Probably isn't as clear cut as I have been arguing. But I suspect that "they're all in violation; dust them" ain't gonna be the answer either. :smallwink:

[Clistenes]

I'm not sure the other vampire clerics count under the protection thing. Wonder if the other clerics are gonna join in and have an undead BBQ yet?

At least the new high priestess is protected. And when she dies, the next high priest too...etc. I guess the bodyguards could join and kill the non-high priest vampires before Roy kills the new high priestess, but the thing is, as vampires/vampire spawn, the will still "live" two hours in mist form after being "slayed"... I don't know how is Roy going to win this, unless Ranjo and Giggles arrive to save the day...

[Fitzclowningham]

My take:

The Creed of the Stone built the temple, and probably cast the wards that restrict ingress/egress from the voting chamber. The simplest set of rules that would serve their purpose would go something like:

1) Allow entry and block exit for high priests and their bodyguards until voting is complete and the issue is decided.
2) Allow freedom of movement for the ushers, so they may prefer their duties, and, through them, allow the high priests co communicate outside of the voting chamber as needed.
3) If they had been trying to account for every possible contingency, the rules would have prohibited attacks on the ushers. Since they clearly didn't plan this way, not having the wards verify the identities of the souls in the ushers is just another (fateful) oversight.
4) The identities of everyone involved are validated once, at the time of their entry. After that, they are assumed to be valid. If this is correct, then:
5) The (former) Creed still has the run of the place.
6) Roy and Belkar, both having been admitted as bodyguards of the HPoH, continue in that designation, and are not prohibited from attacking her.
7) The (former) Creed, with the exception of the HPoH, are still fair game for everyone.

Sound reasonable?

[Jasdoif]

The Creeders didn't lack protection from the rules, they lacked protection from Durkon.They lacked protection from HPoH through the rules of the Godsmoot, yes. If attacking them carried a risk of repercussions in the Godsmoot, he might not have attacked them.


Furthermore, the situation described doesn't involve "protection from the rules" at all—it involves a given group of people being on the short list of people allowed to enter the Godsmoot temple. The high priests and their bodyguards are allowed in for obvious reasons, the Creeders are allowed in because they made the temple, the vampires wearing their husks are not either group and hence are presumably not allowed.Here's the thing: Assuming the vampires aren't allowed, what action could be taken against them that wasn't forbidden against their living forms, since their living forms had no protection in the first place?

Or to look at it from a different angle...why is there so much attention being given to this particular background detail, when it will have little-to-no influence on the course of events? Whether or not the rules forbid them from being present in the room, they're clearly present in the room.

[PallentisLunam]

At least the new high priestess is protected. And when she dies, the next high priest too...etc. I guess the bodyguards could join and kill the non-high priest vampires before Roy kills the new high priestess, but the thing is, as vampires/vampire spawn, the will still "live" two hours in mist form after being "slayed"... I don't know how is Roy going to win this, unless Ranjo and Giggles arrive to save the day...

I thought I remembered reading something about a vampire without a coffin dies instantly when reduced to 0 hp, but I can't find it anywhere... Regardless the vamps couldn't have had time to build coffins so it's ambiguous what happens to them when they are knocked down to 0 or lower

[Aka-chan]

Y'know, I just thought of something. Lurky Corpsewhiskers is headed to some kind of dwarven clan council, right? We've seen several of Durkon's older relatives in flashbacks--what if one of them is a clan head? Might we see a confrontation between "Durkon" and Sigdi, Thirden, or Durkon's other uncle (whose name escapes me at the moment)?

[Rogar Demonblud]

I thought I remembered reading something about a vampire without a coffin dies instantly when reduced to 0 hp, but I can't find it anywhere... Regardless the vamps couldn't have had time to build coffins so it's ambiguous what happens to them when they are knocked down to 0 or lower

They get turned to mist, they float about for 2 hours, they die (for reals this time).

[DaggerPen]

I am deeply confused by why we're arguing over whether the vampires are still recognized as Stone Creed members when the whole reason they're vampires in the first place is that the Creed members weren't protected by the Godsmoot rules.

Two scenarios:

1. For some reason, the vampirized Creed members still count as ushers. Under the rules of the Godsmoot, they have no protection, and thus the priests may decide how to attack them or not as they see fit (the new HPOH and possible bodyguards excepting).
2. The vampirized Creed members do not count as ushers anymore. Under the rules of the Godsmoot, they have no protection, and thus the priests may decide how to attack them or not as they see fit (the new HPOH and possible bodyguards excepting).

I suppose it's possible that there's a rule that any interlopers must be executed on sight, but I don't really see that making any difference except in whether a few high priests abstain from attacking/buff the vampires or not.

Mind you, I suspect it will all be a (heh) moot point, because the (f)HPOH is likely aware of these same loopholes and has more use for the Creed members to help take dominate a bunch of dwarven council members than standing around in the Godsmoot without the slightest bit of protection.

I suspect that Roy and Belkar will shortly be losing bodyguard status, in the first place so Roy can leave and in the second place because leaving two backups and taking the rest seems like the smartest move for the (f)HPOH.

As for whether the new HPOH was allowed in in the first place:

1. I suspect the rules do not cover a scenario where a high priest becomes a high priest while on the floor, and in lieu of a clear rule against it, I would imagine that the "No attacking or removing high priests" rule stands.
2. Technically the (f)HPOH abdicated BEFORE the new one entered the chamber, so, you know, by the internal policy of the Church of Hel, she was already the new high priest and thus permitted entry. Find where in the rules it says otherwise.

(As for the question from last thread of what the Godsmoots of years past mostly voted on? I'd put solid money on "at least the first half every time is spent cleaning up the shenanigans from the LAST Godsmoot. These sorts of weirdly specific, exact wording rules combined with the makeup of the pantheons speak to a time honored tradition of pulling stuff no one thought of.

"Okay, the first resolution on this year's table - policy regarding high priest abdication mid proceedings?")

[BenbaBoffin3025]

There seems to be a lot of talk about whether or not a person should be allowed to enter the Moot if they have no official purpose, but there does not seem to be a lot of discussion about what precautions have been taken to prevent an illegal entry.

I had an idea about the barrier. It's possible that the barrier acts as a sort of screening device, possibly one which you need a password to enter through in the first place. If I designed it, I would do it that way. BUT, like so many other things (say, maybe an Anti-life shell), I bet the barrier only works for living beings. It may be that the barrier only keeps out Living people with no official purpose, and the fHPoH and all his lackeys walked right through.

It also would make sense for there to be a potential flaw like that. After all, it's not every Godsmoot that the nefarious goddess of death sends a scheming undead abomination to mess up everyone's day. It could just be an oversight.

Oh, and if anyone does not like this idea, that's fine. It's all pure speculation anyway.:smallbiggrin:

[BriarHobbit]

Nice. Now, as long as the new evil HP of Hel minds her manners and those other minions behave, this could work for Durkula. Otherwise, there are going to be a number of piles of dust. I remain a bit surprised that there was no provision to protect the Exarch and his people, but that appears to be the situation.

[PallentisLunam]

I had an idea about the barrier. It's possible that the barrier acts as a sort of screening device, possibly one which you need a password to enter through in the first place. If I designed it, I would do it that way. BUT, like so many other things (say, maybe an Anti-life shell), I bet the barrier only works for living beings. It may be that the barrier only keeps out Living people with no official purpose, and the fHPoH and all his lackeys walked right through.
...
Oh, and if anyone does not like this idea, that's fine. It's all pure speculation anyway.:smallbiggrin:

Personally, I find this about as plausible if not more so than most of the theories proposed so far. Everybody is suffering from a lack of hard facts. We don't really know what the barrier is for or how it works. Same with most of the rules for the Godsmoot as a whole. We'll just have to wait and see what comes next.

[8BitNinja]

Ever heard of monster infighting?

Doomguy has that covered

IDDQD
IDKFA

[Jasdoif]

Ever heard of monster infighting?

Doomguy has that covered

IDDQD
IDKFABut given that OotS' setting is closer to Heretic's than to Doom's, that first part could be a real killer.

[Messenger]

Really? How much do you want to bet on that? Figuratively speaking of course.

After all, there are A LOT of priests present that who serve gods that want to end the world.

Opening fire on the Church of Hel pretty much starts Armageddon in the Godsmoot. And stopping that from happening is kinda the whole point of these moots. If one recalls.

Sure, someone who is triggerhappy might be tempted. But as long as the Church of Hel doesn't initiate hostilities, and so far they have attacked NO ONE covered under the protection of the Moot (unless it was in self-defense), I suspect that the folks present are just going to have to sit back and accept it.I'm still willing to bet a good amount on it.

Your reasoning in itself rides on the idea that Hel's servants haven't attack anyone beyond Roy and the Order('s animals). We shall soon see if that remains true in the face of the HPoH calling in most of those he vamped in order to ensure their plot succeeds.

Furthermore, you're working on the assumption that the HPoH's vamping of the ushers and others and calling them in does not constitute a violation of neutrality and the rules of the Godsmoot. My point is as much speculation as yours- or maybe even more so- but I doubt the Godsmoot's rules would be that particularly abusable or evadable in a world of adventurers, monsters, and all the schemes that go along with them.

Of those gods who voted to end the world, some have apparently (or at least likely) changed their minds even if they cannot change their votes. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1001.html) The original votes were cast without Hel's scheme in mind. If their clerics are now allowed to act, even if they voted for the end of the world, they're not going to side with Hel.

[Seward]

I feel like Durkon has been stretching the rules quite a bit and they should be totally at the breaking point by this strip.

Agreed. I've been enjoying this arc less and less because it seems like the clerics are playing the lawful stupid idiot ball, even though more than half aren't lawful. Why aren't any of them looking for loopholes to save the world?

Also durkula should have been misted when he gave Roy 3 shots at him in gaseous form. Roy should have ripped him into little cutlets - he'd hit a gaseous form on a "2" with full power attack.

So I'm unhappy both from a 3.5 rules standpoint and just a "this plot isn't making any sense" standpoint. Durkula's playing too fast and loose and is paying no price for it, and his backup plan is even stupider. How is a dominated dwarven council going to "count" as giving any kind of ruling to a freaking GOD? Even a demigod is capable of just waiting until they aren't dominated to get their vote. He can TELL. Sheesh.

[ShaneWegner]

If every High Priest in the room could universally agree that these 11 or so Usher clerics represented an unforgivable threat and that they should unify against them, then no problem. They could light them up.

But.

We've seen that the gods are contentious and can't agree. That's practically the whole thesis of this entire world here. (Hence the Snarl.)

It's going to be about 50-50 on the whole "Hey should we light all these vampires up right now?"

Which means that as some clerics are trying to toast them, others are buffing them and giving them negative energy (or even worse, smiting other High Priests).

With a 50-50 balance tug-of-war, 11 vampires could tip the tide. Roy isn't well set up to turn that kind of tide.

Plus the airship situation is still in trouble. And so is Belkar.

And again, all that divine energy might allow a thin spot for the Snarl to chip away at. Which could arguably be Hel's hidden purpose anyway. I don't know what the HPoH is implying he will do. I guess it was kill dwarves or something? If he went to the last Gate, Redcloak and Xykon (who are presumably slowly wading through lots of very magic-resistant Serini monsters) would probably just pwn them.

If this rumble was Hel's plan all along, that's quite the Thanatos Roulette she's playing there. Maybe every outcome works out well for her.

[Gift Jeraff]

Reread page 2, panel 2: http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0994.html

All theistic priests have protection at the Godsmoot. Even back when Wrecan thought Durkon wasn't playing a formal role, he told Belkar this.

[Ravens_cry]

Well, then if I may suggest a possibility for a win for Team: Let's-Not-Destroy-The-World-'Kay?, perhaps one of the priests will get injured by the mob (horde, murder, what's a group of Vampires called?).