Differences between Caitiff and Thin Blood...

[Bloodtomb]

Is there any significant difference between Caitiff and Thin Blood? Although the main concern comes from that what if one does not want to be in a clan but then again Thin Bloods and Caitiff are often mixed together that, it seems the message I'm getting that in order to be potent, then you must be in a clan which can be troublesome.

So I wonder if it's possible to separate Caitiff and Thin Bloods and be as separate things and also can you make the existence of clanless vampires actually a thing? One idea I have that Caitiff don't actually have generation but instead they have Blood Potency since Generation would be a clan trait that their "blood potency" is locked due to a curse and they're punished for raising through diablabrie while Caitiff Vampires don't suffer from this which their blood is more 'fluid' they can increase their power without diablabrie at all mainly with age. While Thin Bloods in the other hand are the direct result of the generation 'thinning' from each embrace is also part of the same curse as well. Also maybe Caitiff can have a unknown origin as well which maybe they're descended from Vampires who do not trace back their lineages to the Antediluvian Clan Progenitors therefore they don't have same curse that the clans share.

Any thoughts on this?

[This be Richard]

As I understand it: pretty much all thin bloods are caitiff, but not all caitiff are thin bloods. That is to say that if you're of sufficiently weak generation, your blood is too weak -- thin -- to carry clan with it, so you end up as a clanless caitiff. With that said, stronger-generation caitiff (though rare) are not completely unheard of, especially in the event that they improved their generation after the embrace through diablerie.

If you want to introduce significant numbers of clanless vampires with potent blood, I'd personally just allow for large numbers of strong-generation caitiff that nonetheless still trace back to the Antediluvians and ultimately Caine. Introducing new mechanics and/or alternate sources of vampirism opens cans of worms I'd personally rather leave shut.

[Anonymouswizard]

Oh boy, Caitiff as a term is used in weird ways (it's also apparently offensive to someone or something?) There are four meanings the word can have, depending on context:

Not having a Clan metaphysically. This means no Clan Disciplines, but no Clan Weakness. This is what most players mean when they say 'Caitiff'. Nobody is sure why it happens.
Not having a Clan socially, beause you left it or were thrown out. For some clans (*cough* Nosferatu) this is a massive penalty, for others it might not be important, and for some you might end up hunted down (Tremere).
Occasionally it's used to mean a vampire of high generation. This is wrong, the correct term is 'Thin-Blood' for those of the 14th and 15th,, or 'high generation' for others.
In a bit of early installment weirdness, it is also a synonym for Anarch. Caitiff wasn't really defined in 2e.


The confusion comes because they can overlap. Caitiff approximately means Clanless, Thin-Blood means 14th or 15th generation (or, in older times, the lowest generation). Many Thin-Bloods are Caitiff, and most Caitiff are of a high generation (~10+, but they can naturally occur at any generation), but you do get things such as 14th generation Cainites with a Clan (not overly common, but it happens), although all 15th gen are Caitiff.

In terms of Caitiff and curses, them not having generation makes little sense. Vampires have three curses:

The Curse of Caine, this is required for Vampirism (despite name, Caine may not actually exist).
The Curse of Generations, this was inflicted by Caine to try and stop Vampires from killing their sires by making them weaker, as the 3rd generation did. Diablerie is a work-around, where by consuming a soul you can become a lower generation.
Clan curses, these were inflicted by Caine on the Antediluvians as a punishment. They are the thing such as the Brujah's temper and the Nosferatu's ugliness.


Type 1 Caitiff (to take a leaf from the Brujah, True Caitiff) have not inherited curse 3, which simply affected the descendants of an Antediluvian. Curse 2, however, was applied to the entire 'Vampire race', and so True Caitiff should not be able to break it just because they are not affected by the Clan Curse. As a side note, not being affected by it would not have them use Blood Potency instead of Generation, it would give them 10 dots in the Generation background, and their Childer 10 dots in Generation, and so on.

Despite what this post might say, I like Caitiff, I just don't think that they should use Blood Potency. I have a character concept I want to use that is a Caitiff (13th generation) with a unique discipline who plans to lower his generation and start an officially recognised Bloodline (not capital 'B', this means a 'minor clan' instead of a recognised lineage).

[LibraryOgre]

As others have said, Caitiff means you don't have a Clan, Thin Blood means you're such a weak vampire that you've got serious penalties (usually are 14th or 15th generation).

[sktarq]

to make matters more confusing particularly low generation vampire would tend to use either as insults of "low value", "bastard", and "outsider" in somewhat interchangeable ways against targets that have a clan and are not of exceptionally thin blood.

also 13th Generation is often but not universally considered thin blood (14th+ is unquestionably thin blood)

Catiff can also be embraces at lower than 13th Gen if somewhere in their ancestry someone was 13th+ generation and started to drink down some souls. So if their sire diabalarized from 13th down to 10th gen and THEN embraced your character they could well be an 11th Gen Caitiff on their first night. The Sabbat's Pander entry goes into this a bit.

[Bloodtomb]

Introducing new mechanics and/or alternate sources of vampirism opens cans of worms I'd personally rather leave shut.

Yet what if someone didn't like the Noddest Biblical literalism of Vampire and they wanted to change it?

Well the main reason comes from a quote from my locked threads (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=19347783&postcount=2) I've created long ago regarding the subject about Spirits:


Vampire often dives headlong into Noddist biblical literalism and would probably label them demons.

This is where the main problem comes in with Abrahamic centric settings especially when trying to introduce spirits in a Vampire game it seems which I find this very problematic since I rather prefer a setting where All Myths are equally true rather having one religion dominating all the others.

[Anonymouswizard]

Yet what if someone didn't like the Noddest Biblical literalism of Vampire and they wanted to change it?

Well the main reason comes from a quote from my locked threads (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=19347783&postcount=2) I've created long ago regarding the subject about Spirits:

Assuming you don't want to use Requiem? My suggestion for 'non-Cainite Kindred':

1) The Followers of Set are right, the Clan founders are the original vampires. This now gives 13th gen as the final generation, a nice number for it to be.
2) Allow people to become third generation vampires through some method, or exchange Generation for Blood Potency.
3) Get rid of Caitiff, or make up an alternative reasoning.


This is where the main problem comes in with Abrahamic centric settings especially when trying to introduce spirits in a Vampire game it seems which I find this very problematic since I rather prefer a setting where All Myths are equally true rather having one religion dominating all the others.

The only 'Abrahamic' setting I really like is Demon: the Fallen, which takes a stance of 'you're all wrong' and very subtly implies the stance might be wrong. Christianity is the closest religion to being correct and is still significantly wrong (see: the entirity of the book of Genesis and a good portion of the New Testament might have some significant errors and omissions*). It's a far better Abrahamic setting than Masquerade, although I see why some people prefer Descent.

[The Glyphstone]

Yet what if someone didn't like the Noddest Biblical literalism of Vampire and they wanted to change it?

Well the main reason comes from a quote from my locked threads (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=19347783&postcount=2) I've created long ago regarding the subject about Spirits:



This is where the main problem comes in with Abrahamic centric settings especially when trying to introduce spirits in a Vampire game it seems which I find this very problematic since I rather prefer a setting where All Myths are equally true rather having one religion dominating all the others.

You'd honestly be better off just slagging the whole thing down to scratch and building your own setting, then trying to slap-patch Masquerade, as was discussed in your previous thread on this same topic here: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?418999-quot-Re-Thinking-quot-WoD-s-canon-or-lore


Great Modthulhu: I'd strongly suggest not going any further into that line of discussion (by anyone), since it will result in this thread being locked the way the previous one was. Keep the topic of this thread on the Caitiff/Thin Blood issue as originally posted.

[Bloodtomb]

Assuming you don't want to use Requiem? My suggestion for 'non-Cainite Kindred':

1) The Followers of Set are right, the Clan founders are the original vampires. This now gives 13th gen as the final generation, a nice number for it to be.
2) Allow people to become third generation vampires through some method, or exchange Generation for Blood Potency.
3) Get rid of Caitiff, or make up an alternative reasoning.

Well I would most likely pick number two which rather the way I would rather prefer that the Caitiff (as in point 3, why get rid of them?) to be Vampires who don't have the generation curse or rather Vampires who transcended the concept of clan by breaking the curse.

{{scrubbed}}

[Anonymouswizard]

Well I would most likely pick number two which rather the way I would rather prefer that the Caitiff (as in point 3, why get rid of them?) to be Vampires who don't have the generation curse or rather Vampires who transcended the concept of clan by breaking the curse.

The three are meant to be one solution.

Again, the core assumption is that generation is a separate curse.


{{scrubbed}}

[Bloodtomb]

{{scrubbed}}

[LibraryOgre]

The Mod Wonder: That which doth eternal lie. Ignore Modthulhu, thread may die.

[Occasional Sage]

The Mod Wonder: That which doth eternal lie. Ignore Modthulhu, thread may die.

Best moderator post I can remember. Now I'll have Metallica playing in my head through my commute.

[SilverSheriff]

Alright, I'm going to have a crack at this considering I was the Brujah clanhead in a National LARP.

*cracks fingers, spends 15 minutes quickly stenciling the tattoos of the character and dons the suit, tie, and bowler hat of an 1890s Doctor*

"Well son, the thing about Caitiff is that they're sort of an odd mutation of the bloodlines, they're the clanless, the unfortunates that do not manifest the powers of blood passed on generation after generation until....."

*looks Nervously around and spots the City's Toreador Elder*

"Nevermind that last word... Gehenna and.... -They-.... do not exist.... Caitiff tend to manifest odd patterns of the blood powers, you might find a Kindred who was sired by a Gangrel, and while that childe may manifest Fortitude and Animalism they have instead manifested say..."

*looks over shoulder again, then leans in to whisper*

"Obtenebration?"

*waits for a reaction from the Elder and is satisfied when she doesn't seem to react*

"There is no explanation to the phenomenon of course, and with my next point; Thinbloods, thinbloods are sort of in the same boat as, except they could (provided they aren't themselves Caitiff) still manifest the powers of their sires, they just have trouble activating their powers... sort of like ED? I suppose I should simply sum up my little rant here... Caitiff can be thinbloods, thinbloods can be Caitiff, but not all Caitiff are thin and not all thin are Caitiff."

[Chen]

Even by White Wolf cannon thin bloods are different than Caitiff. Like the 7th generation Caitiff prince of Cairo...

http://whitewolf.wikia.com/wiki/Mukhtar_Bey