Rules Q&A Need to force alignment shift on non-willing character! [Archive]

TomeGnome

2016-01-04, 12:31 PM

Arbane

2016-01-04, 12:38 PM

Deck of Many Things.

Our campaign is very story driven

I think I found your problem, but I don't know a good solution to it.

That said.... okay, you're stuck with this. How does this mage feel about his formerly-fellow evildoers? Friends or barely-tolerated co-workers?

TomeGnome

2016-01-04, 12:52 PM

By the nature of an involuntary, radical alignment shift, he already feels great regret at what atrocities we have committed together (overthrowing the dwarven fortress protecting the land from the invading armies of the orcs, kidnapping an elven prince, turning on our contact for a job and supplanting the rightful heirs to his estate through the most underhanded of tactics, etc) and sees us as everything he stands against.

Uncle Pine

2016-01-04, 12:57 PM

So you're an Evil party and your campaign is "very story driven". This suggests me that you aren't simply a bunch of murderhobos on a rampage and that you're more likely to be a group of mature people who enjoy roleplaying shades of Evil beyond "I hit him with my axe for no reason". Thus, you shouldn't be new to physical and mental torture, and since you all are his former fellows you should have at least some info on his past.
Why was your Wizard Evil to begin with? What led him down the path of a Chaotic Evil character? A trauma? His faith in an otherwordly abomination? Was it power? Or the lack of faith in both the current institution and the common idea of "Good"? Know your former ally's past and then break him again in the most ruthless ways. Don't trick him into becoming Chaotic Evil: turn him into a Chaotic Evil character again. If I figured your group out, that ought to make for some serious and enjoyable roleplay.

... Or you could just turn him into a lycanthrope and then cure him as soon as he becomes CE.

daremetoidareyo

2016-01-04, 01:15 PM

Seconding that lycanthropy suggestion. You're gonna need to make some knowledge checks and actively hunt for some wererats.

Also consider using planar binding to bind a fiend that specializes in corruption. Some succubus nookie can go a long way.

Another option, one that your friend might hate, is to simply kill him/her. Once they are dead, you need to defile the living heck out of their corpse (or stuff it into a bag of holding) so that the DM can't use the character against you in the future. Otherwise, the former ally is a significant threat to you and will plague you for years to come. The player can roll up a new CE thing, the old character is dead and no longer a risk to yall. Problem solved. This is D&D, break your heart and move on.

ATHATH

2016-01-04, 01:39 PM

Maybe you can get another deck and try to get him to draw Balance again?

You could Dominate him and use him as a source of Sanctified spells (Create Lantern Archon can be used as fuel for spells with Soul components).

How high of a level are you? He might be able to teleport some of you to a Redeemery and convert the entire party to the light side (an atonement story arc might be cool).

You could also just stab him in the middle of the night and recruit his twin brother.

Inevitability

2016-01-04, 01:41 PM

Your 'friend' still has his old spellbook, right? And said spellbook probably contains at least a few [Evil] spells.

What you want is to somehow get him under your control (Charm Person/Dominate Person/Diplomacy if he's no longer a PC), then make him cast these [Evil] spells over and over until he becomes evil again.

You might need to top off Charm Person with Hypnotism, or at least present a situation where only Evil spells are a viable way out.

Red Fel

2016-01-04, 01:41 PM

Long story short, we are an evil party in core-only game, and our wizard just drew Balance from the Deck of Many Things. Our campaign is very story driven, so we need to change him back or it's goodbye to our little band of brothers.

We can't go to outside source books for spells like Mind Rape, there's no way to swing willingness to use Atonement (an alignment shift means he doesn't want to be evil again and will refuse any attempts to change him back), and our DM took one look at the Helm of Opposite Alignment and went "That's stupid so I'm retconning that to not be permanent."

I think you just found your answer.

The Helm instantly forces an alignment change. Your DM says that's stupid, and therefore not permanent. Balance does the exact same thing, with the added looming threat of a negative level. By your DM's logic, something that forced should not be permanent. Point that out to him.

If he insists that Balance, being part of an Artifact (the Deck), is permanent, then point out that the DM has created a situation which will force a player to retire his character. Appeal directly to the DM.

I'm not saying that he shouldn't have included the Deck, but if run a campaign that precludes X, I would necessarily not give the players the ability to involuntarily X, unless I was prepared to give them a way to un-X in the same immediate manner. Point out that, for all the talk about the game being story-driven, unless he is prepared to provide them with a quest for an object that can reverse the card (he doesn't have to just hand you the cure, but he should make one available), his inclusion of Balance in the Deck has basically forced a character's retirement.

Players should be creative in coming up to solutions to problems. But where the DM created the problem, and blocks possible solutions proposed by the players, the burden is on the DM to provide the players with the opportunity to resolve the matter.

TomeGnome

2016-01-04, 01:45 PM

I think Lycanthropy is our best option. I spit that one at our DM and he is at least intrigued.

The big issue is, we actually have a bunch of wishes to burn that we got from the Deck. Our DM was really rigid at first on what is/isn't allowed, but the more we argued, the more we all realized that it's nebulous for a reason, and if you're dumb enough to make risky wishes, more power too you. So we're likely going to wish him to become evil again (courtesy of our dimwit fighter who's had 6 intelligence sucked away), and have the answer be that he becomes infected with Lycanthropy.

Getting a new character is out. We all (including our DM) want to see this play out, and the whole purpose of our campaign was to be an evil one. Converting to good would not only ignore the unwillingness of any alignment to become another, it would defeat the whole point of the campaign.

We have some good ideas to play with here. Thanks, everyone! :)

ExLibrisMortis

2016-01-04, 02:19 PM

You can turn a character into a half-clay golem by attaching four new limbs. That forces a DC 33 Will save to avoid becoming a NE construct. You take a -6 Intelligence hit, so it's not practical for a wizard, but you may be able to detach the limbs and cast regenerate to remove the template. Consult your DM.

Forced undeadifying may also work.

TomeGnome

2016-01-04, 02:21 PM

Quertus

2016-01-04, 02:37 PM

our wizard just drew Balance from the Deck of Many Things.

our DM took one look at the Helm of Opposite Alignment and went "That's stupid so I'm retconning that to not be permanent."

We have a Lawful Good mage in a group of Chaotic Evil adventurers.

We can't go to outside source books for spells like Mind Rape

Permanent balance is ok, but permanent helm is not? Is your DM usually inconsistent / a ****?

You have several options.

Even with a temporary helm of opposite alignment, the character should now be willing for atonement.

Wish or miracle can safely duplicate 8th level spells, or equivalent effects. Permanently changing someone's alignment is an equivalent effect, by virtue of WotC having repeatedly published several such spells. I'd say the DM would have to be a **** not to let this work; ymmv.

Explain his situation to the wizard - he can leave, at which point he knows y'all will do bad, bad things. He can fight, at which point he dies. Or y'all can sit down and talk things out. His new alignment almost mandates the last option. Then, as others have said, if you know his back story, use it to turn him. Roleplay it out, or just pick up X days / years later, now that the whole party is evil. Or good. Or some mix that can get along. Heck, I would love the story of evil showing true brotherhood, and all spontaneously converting to good.

Let him leave, let him become the next BBEG (BBGG?) He should have a high treasure to threat/XP ratio anyway.

Or let him leave... at which point he becomes an NPC, and is subject to diplomacy. Make him your fanatical follower, and convince him to (re)join the dark side. At which point, he is a valid PC again. Or a fun NPC. Whichever.

Oh, and I wouldn't let "in an extradimensional space, the entrance to which is on your person" count as on your person. Otherwise, by holding a key to hell, you count as holding every single cursed item in hell. :smalleek:

Segev

2016-01-04, 02:47 PM

You refer to your group as a "band of brothers." This is encouraging in a description of a CE party: how do the PCs feel about each other? Is the LG Wizard still a valued party member that it pains the others to see leave? Do they want him "cured" because they actually like him and hate to see him suffering this cursed (literally) guilt? Or is it because they like his power and want to use him, but can ditch him and replace him if needs be?

If the latter, then yeah, mind-control magics are a viable option. Or other forms of coercion, such as holding hostages that his new, weak-minded morals would guilt him into working with you to protect.

But if it's friendship (and yes, evil can have friends), then coercion is out, at least in the long run. In the short run, "it's for your own good" is a perfectly viable Evil justification for inflicting trauma on the poor deluded fool, but only really as a tactic to keep him from doing something stupid while under the effects of the curse (like going out and leaving the party to join some do-gooders and weaken or expose himself further).

Another short-term possibility, if it really is friendship, is to voluntarily acquiesce to his moral and ethical restrictions in order to keep him around. "If you stay with us, you can keep us from 'being evil'." It won't do long-term for a number of reasons, the biggest meta-reason being that you, as players, don't want a game about nasty people doing good because one person begs them to. But it could let you keep him around while you seek a solution. If you've got clever types - particularly a cleric - who can "counsel" him and try to talk him back into evil and chaos, that is one option. But it'll be at least as hard as it is for him to talk you guys into redeeming yourselves.

Lastly, there's the fact of that negative level. It's there because it's meant to be what discourages players from simply ignoring their new alignment and playing as before. That doesn't sound like it's NORMALLY a problem for you guys. But it implies that the curse actually scourges the soul with guilt or pain for going back to its old ways. Perhaps you can appeal to the wizard's intellect and his friendship for you guys and convince him that he can only prove he's really changed if he overcomes the curse and still wants to reform. The only way to do that is to act as he did before until the magically-induced guilt has run its course (and rent his soul, costing him a level).

i.e., convince him to act CE until his alignment shifts and he loses the level. It will fix him. The argument you use is that he's not "really" good unless he can do it without the curse making him feel bad, and that good performed to avoid pain is just selfishness which will ultimately hurt others even more. Or some other malarkey like that.

OldTrees1

2016-01-04, 02:58 PM

RP it out. The character probably still has the same basic personality just with a radically different alignment. So the character probably has the same weak points that could draw them into evil, and probably still has the amoral(neither moral nor immoral) reasons for staying with your lot. Tempt the good-doer with the possibility of redeeming more of you while you work on tempting them back to evil(they'll just have to tank that negative level).

TomeGnome

2016-01-04, 03:14 PM

I think the negative level could be restored using spells. It doesn't specify otherwise at least.

In any case the problem with RPing it out is that you can't treat forced alignment change the same way as alignment change through decisions. We kept coming back to the text of the helm:

"the affected individual does not make any attempt to return to the former alignment. (In fact, he views the prospect with horror and avoids it in any way possible.)"

You could consider this an effect of the helmet, except that the helmet specifically states that it loses function once it is used, and that you don't even need to wear it anymore once the alignment shift occurs. That rigidity is a factor of the alignment shift itself. Seeing as the helm is more forgiving than the Deck (since a Wish or Miracle can cancel it), I doubt that the unforgiving Deck will be so lenient.

That to me speaks to a complete unwillingness to hear reason. The PHB talks about alignment as being a factor of your actual personality and nature. If he is Lawful Good, he is that way for a reason. The thing is, the deck remakes reality so that *poof*, the character is as straight-edge as can be. We all (DM included) WISH we could roleplay it out, but honestly... short of just houseruling that it happens, there is no real wiggle room.

As far as equivalent spell effects, there is no equivalent in core 3.5 that allows for unwilling alignment change, so there's nothing we can copy. The closest is Atonement, and again, need to be willing. Using the temporary form of the helm with Atonement wouldn't work, because Atonement specifically states that the choice cannot be made under duress or under the effects of compulsion or magical interference.

Like I said, though, we reached a compromise on Wish. We all agreed that this method allows for the most fun. Basically, we're using the vague nature to make a wish that isn't specified, but we may incur unwanted effects, e.g.: Lycanthropy. We got this, guys. :)

SangoProduction

2016-01-04, 04:17 PM

Just need to somehow convert some of the player's levels to Paladin. THEN the DM will force him to change alignments so that he falls.

Barstro

2016-01-04, 04:34 PM

What you want is to somehow get him under your control (Charm Person/Dominate Person/Diplomacy if he's no longer a PC), then make him cast these [Evil] spells over and over until he becomes evil again.

My view is that one cannot become bad simply because he was forced to do bad things. The soul wasn't willing, so alignment isn't effected.

On the other hand, I've never taken D&D's version of "evil" to simply be horrific. To my mind, it's more of an ends justifying the means.

Tarquin, for instance, really wants his kingdom to run smoothly. He simply does it through manipulation and slavery.

If your turned PC were shown that doing things the "good" way is at best, slow, and at worst, just not going to work; he might come around. (there's no way I used commas and a semicolon correctly in that sentence).

I concur with the earlier post that the best in-character way to do this is to find out why he was evil in the first place. He might be persuaded to turn back. Hopefully his new goodness also causes him to want to save his companions and they will have time to give this persuasion.

John Longarrow

2016-01-04, 04:44 PM

If you are high enough level to be playing with a deck of many things, you are probably 11th level or better.

Wish your friendly neighborhood LG Wizard was now a lich. Similar level adjustment, much better match to wizard, and his alignment goes to any evil. May be LE, but that is much closer to your group than he is now. Also could be something he was aiming towards anyhow.

Best part, your DM may allow the template without being saddled with the phylactery.

J-H

2016-01-04, 05:03 PM

There's also Quest/Geas. It's on the cleric list, so you don't even need to find a scroll of it if you have a cleric.

Seto

2016-01-05, 07:47 AM

The character is not willing, but I assume the player is ? If that's the case, a rp approach (by corruption and stuff) should work if you spend some time on it.

TomeGnome

2016-01-05, 08:52 AM

The character is not willing, but I assume the player is ? If that's the case, a rp approach (by corruption and stuff) should work if you spend some time on it.

Yes, the player is extremely willing. The DM is just being a bit of a hardass at the moment on the whole "being good means you don't want to be evil" angle. He's lightening up though. It just took a lot of debate.

Jowgen

2016-01-05, 09:25 AM

FCII describes a process by which Devils convert non-LE souls they acquired to LE to make them appropriate Baator fodder. From what I recall, they place them in a sort of prison where you either start acting evil (e.g. killing you cell-mates) and Lawful (i.e. do things for the guards), or your situation becomes increasingly unbearable.

Based of that, I think a straight-forward in-game solution would be to force the character into moral strong dilemmas. For example, you could capture some CG cleric and then present your LG-wizard with a choice: either you torture the cleric for "information", in which case he'll end up dead at the end, or he tortures the cleric himself for information and then the cleric is let go afterwards. If your DM has any respect for how BoVD and the Fiendish Codexes describe evil acts to affect alignment, then this should at least be a serious hit to the LG status. In fact, if the DM is nice about it; the conversion back to evil/rediscovery of who he is might work so well that by the end of the torture, he kills the cleric anyways. A "his journey to the dark side will be complete" type thing. :smallsmile:

TomeGnome

2016-01-05, 09:38 AM

For example, you could capture some CG cleric and then present your LG-wizard with a choice: either you torture the cleric for "information", in which case he'll end up dead at the end, or he tortures the cleric himself for information and then the cleric is let go afterwards.

This is actually better and more colorful than any of the roleplay solutions that we could manage to think up. The problem lies in him actually following through. He could agree to torture them and then find some way to spring them. I don't remember off the top of my head what spells are in his repertoire, but he might be able to find a way. Short of imposing an anti-magic field, he always has a change to escape. It's sort of a false dichotomy, saying either this happens or this other thing happens, when really, there are always other solutions, and his Int score is now in the mid twenties after some of his draws from the Deck. We can definitely discuss this for the sake of flavor though.

Segev

2016-01-05, 09:54 AM

I alluded to this before, but feel it worth highlighting now: the reason the negative level exists is because D&D doesn't actually have mechanics for ENFORCING alignment. There is absolutely nothing preventing a Neutral Evil assassin from refusing to kill people who aren't horrific monsters, from giving charitably of his time and money to helping widows and orphans, from being kind, honest, and generous with even his worst enemies, and only taking jobs from upright (but desperate) people who need somebody killed who really deserves killing.

In other words, nothing to stop him from acting CG through and through. The only tool the DM has, by the RAW, to influence/discourage this behavior is telling him, "You know, keep this up and you're going to stop being NE and start being CG." If the assassin doesn't care, then the alignment changes and nothing more comes of it. (It's an argument as to whether he has to still be Evil to take more levels in his class, but there are no rules for Assassins losing their class features for changing alignment.)

The only (mechanical) reason Paladins and, to a lesser extent, Clerics fear this "punishment" for acting against their alignment is that they lose their class features.

By the RAW, if you afflict somebody with a curse that switches their alignment, there is nothing preventing the player (and thus, the character) from saying "okay, I'm Good now, but I'm still going to slaughter those widows and orphans because I want to." There is nothing ENFORCING your now-LG wizard refusing to behave exactly as he did before...except that negative level.

Mechanically, that's the reason it's there: it's the enforcement mechanism designed to simulate the "abhorrence" and refusal to change back. The player (and thus, character) is supposed to be so fearful of a negative level that won't go away that he will behave "appropriately" for his new alignment.

Now, I know that doesn't help with the RP angle. You guys are big on RP, and your wizard player is going to want to RP the alignment change as described, even without the mechanical punishment. However, since he's on board with restoring the CE alignment OOC, and it's just his character that's opposed to the idea, having him act CE on whatever excuses you can come up with, until the shift happens and he suffers the negative level, is a viable path.

In other words, as long as you can come up with a satisfying RP excuse for him to act CE until his "true self" breaks through the curse, go ahead and do it. The mechanics actually support you, here, by virtue of their desperate attempt to prevent more munchkinly players from simply ignoring the curse. They give you your "if he doesn't play along" clause, thus also giving you the permission, mechanically, not to play along.

Inevitability

2016-01-05, 09:55 AM

My view is that one cannot become bad simply because he was forced to do bad things. The soul wasn't willing, so alignment isn't effected.

That may be your view, but the rules say otherwise. A lot of Exalted vows, for instance, are lost even if you break them under magical compulsion.

BowStreetRunner

2016-01-05, 10:00 AM

Even with a temporary helm of opposite alignment, the character should now be willing for atonement.

I would recommend attempting this.

Jowgen

2016-01-05, 10:10 AM

This is actually better and more colorful than any of the roleplay solutions that we could manage to think up. The problem lies in him actually following through. He could agree to torture them and then find some way to spring them. I don't remember off the top of my head what spells are in his repertoire, but he might be able to find a way. Short of imposing an anti-magic field, he always has a change to escape. It's sort of a false dichotomy, saying either this happens or this other thing happens, when really, there are always other solutions, and his Int score is now in the mid twenties after some of his draws from the Deck. We can definitely discuss this for the sake of flavor though.

Hmmm... well, as I naturally don't have access to all the character sheets and houserules, I can't really suggest a fool-proof plan for ensuring he complies with the... de-habilitation? ... process.

Alternative to the above, you might be able to reverse engineer some of the Redeemery-protocol to work the other way. Some un-holy Poison Rings or another source of temporary negative levels to reduce saves and available spells, combined with a Babbling Wheel for HD-independent Hypnotism and some Charm-effects could go a long way in inducing the necessary attitude adjustment for him to start doing CE things again of his own "free" will.

Really though, the ideal thing you'd want is that one Dragon mag spell that places a seed of evil in a creatures soul and causes it to grow over time until alignment change is accomplished. Too bad you only seem to have core-access.

Andezzar

2016-01-05, 10:34 AM

Forced undeadifying may also work.Be careful with that. Not all ways of making intelligent undead forces an alignment shift to evil, even though all undead ping as evil on Detect Evil.

John Longarrow

2016-01-05, 01:09 PM

For the lycanthrope idea, I'd suggest wording of "I wish he was reincarnated as a were rat" rather than just getting the template. Avoids all the issues in game of learning to control your new form. Also prevents you from having to put him down before he bites someone, unless you all want to be were rats...

Andezzar

2016-01-05, 01:12 PM

John Longarrow

2016-01-05, 01:26 PM

That could be interpreted as making him a born lycanthrope. You do not want that.

Born is LA 3 instead of 2, but it avoids the whole Control Shape issue, especially if you don't want him going feral on the party.

Andezzar

2016-01-05, 01:30 PM

A wizard losing 4 instead of 3 caster levels. The point about afflicting him with lycanthropy and was to cure him afterwards to avoid the nerf of that template.

Sith_Happens

2016-01-05, 01:42 PM

The point about afflicting him with lycanthropy and was to cure him afterwards to avoid the nerf of that template.

Which you can only do if he's an Afflicted Lycanthrope, so even more reason to not risk making him a Natural one.

The Viscount

2016-01-05, 04:18 PM

TomeGnome

2016-01-05, 05:04 PM

Have your Wizard make several wishes for Pazuzu to grant. The first one's free, but after that they shift alignment toward CE a step at a time. All you need is to succeed on the knowledge check. If necessary, tell the wizard it's for something else, since the Good character might not want this.

I'm pretty sure of all of us, he's the only one who would be aware of this. If he even suspected that Pazuzu was an unseemly character, he would outright refuse, or at least so our DM would rule. That being said, that would be hilarious if he didn't know.

Segev

2016-01-05, 05:27 PM

I'm pretty sure of all of us, he's the only one who would be aware of this. If he even suspected that Pazuzu was an unseemly character, he would outright refuse, or at least so our DM would rule. That being said, that would be hilarious if he didn't know.

If any of you are not CE, you could summon up Pazuzu yourself and then discuss what you're after with him. He might even have a wish he could suggest to you to facilitate your wizard friend calling on him without realizing the consequences. His whole purpose behind the wish-granting is to make people turn CE, so knowing there's an LG wizard to be "redeemed" to the dark side should make him quite cooperative.

It's so good a bargain he might even forgive you for calling upon him while you ARE CE. (Usually, it's a bad idea because he has what he wants so calling on him just gets you dragged to the Abyss.)

The Viscount

2016-01-06, 03:49 PM

There's always Remorseless Charm from Champions of Ruin. It doesn't explicitly change alignment, but essentially makes the target evil anyway, and lasts until break enchantment, which isn't exactly common. You may only need to use this to get the character back to playable levels, or you can use it to buy you some time. Granted you have to be able to make or buy the painting, but it's not a big thing. Also by strict RAW the spell doesn't work because it's cast on the material component painting, but it's just a silliness that's solved with normal common sense.

TomeGnome

2016-01-06, 05:35 PM

There's always Remorseless Charm from Champions of Ruin.

Can't. :/ Core books only. I think Lycanthropy is still our best option, which I think our DM may use once we make a vague wish to make our brother evil again. It'll kinda be monkey's paw-ish, and result in extra effects we didn't count on, which honestly will make roleplay a lot more lively anyway. Pazuzu is a good fallback providing he fails his knowledge roll to know who Pazuzu really is.

Segev

2016-01-06, 06:02 PM

Pazuzu is a good fallback providing he fails his knowledge roll to know who Pazuzu really is.

If you go with Pazuzu, try to get in touch with the demon prince first and let him know that, if he can manage to show up in disguise or something, it might work better. Doesn't help with the summoning requirement, though.

John Longarrow

2016-01-06, 07:05 PM

If you already have wish available, you can do soooo many fun things to make sure things go your way. Get in contact with Pazuzu ahead of time. Get a magic item that 'summons an angle for those of pure of heart' (queue Pazuzu showing up) then work with Pazuzu to have several encounters that the wizard will want to summon help for.

Especially since its a drawn out con, Pazuzu'd love this kind of stuff.

Quertus

2016-01-06, 09:22 PM

As far as equivalent spell effects, there is no equivalent in core 3.5 that allows for unwilling alignment change, so there's nothing we can copy. The closest is Atonement, and again, need to be willing. Using the temporary form of the helm with Atonement wouldn't work, because Atonement specifically states that the choice cannot be made under duress or under the effects of compulsion or magical interference.

You clearly missed the point here. Summoning a bag of jelly beans is clearly an "equivalent effect", even though there is no spell in core to allow this. Cleaning your clothes is obviously an equivalent effect. Folding a piece of paper is clearly an equivalent effect. 10d6 child damage in a 20" radius is clearly an equivalent effect, even though there is no way in core to do that. And duplicating the effects of any published spell, core or otherwise, is also obviously an equivalent effect.

Now, your DM could disagree with WotC's use of game balance, and argue that such spells are at the wrong level, just as they could argue that fireball should be a 9th level spell, or mundane classes should get 100 extra bonus feats to try to balance them with full casters. But, RAW, even if the spells somehow do not exist in the game, they are still equivalent effects for power balance purposes.