Deck of Many Things: Broken?

[Middle Snu]

My DM has, for no reason I can discern, handed our party (9th-level) a Deck of Many Things. So far, no character has drawn a card.

Is there any particular reason why my character (9th-level Wizard) cannot simply use Summon Monster to have monsters draw cards for him, then command them to hand over the benefits (wishes, gold, magic, etc)? If not... well, this item seems a little broken.

[Tor the Fallen]

Is there any particular reason why my character (9th-level Wizard) cannot simply use Summon Monster to have monsters draw cards for him, then command them to hand over the benefits (wishes, gold, magic, etc)? If not... well, this item seems a little broken.

Is there any particular reason an artifact of the power to conjure a castle out of thin air wouldn't also know who was *really* drawing cards from it?

In other words; DM fiat/common sense.

[TheOOB]

Well, the item is an artifact. It's not so much broken as it breaks the game.

Heres the lowdown, the more random things are in D&D, the less it favors the players and the more likely it is to cause problums. Thats why the rod of wonder is a poor item, why a greatsword is (usually) superior to a greataxe, and why enemies with large, random damage ranges are dangerous.

The deck of many things is about as random as it can get. Not only is it random, but effects can either completely ruin a character, or make them really overpowered in a short time. Most DMs who have used the deck of many things before learn that the only purpose of the deck is when you want to end the campaign, and you want it to end with a bang(perhaps literally), apart from that reason the item really has no good reason for existing, and should be avoided like pun pun or a rust monster.

As for the summoned creature thing, I'd say that since summoned creatures are an extension of their master, the deck would have the card effect the master. Thats purely an ad hoc ruling though.

[Jack Mann]

It can't give you experience. Summoned creatures don't leave behind any of their possessions, but it's unclear if this would apply to belongings gained while summoned. You could probably have it wish on your behalf. Most of the other effects wouldn't be transferable.

[CASTLEMIKE]

The item isn't broken just very random. It's cool if your PC gets 4 wishes or 50,000 experience points or a magic weapon or a castle or other cool benefit.............

Your PC doesn't have to draw any cards. This is an artifact your group could trade it for some other item of benefit to the group in game.

According to the DMG text the magic is bestowed upon the person who drew the card for better or worse.

Deciding to draw a certain number of cards say 3 for the purposes of this thread and then the PC decides only to draw one no matter what the PC does the other two cards will flip out on their own for him or her and affect them.

[MeatGrindah]

Hmm.

Our DM just handed my Warblade with a Deck of Many Things. Inside a Bag of Devouring. :smallconfused:

AT LEVEL 2! :smalleek:

[Rad]

If you use a deck of many things in the first place, then you do not care for balance at all, so it makes no sense to wonder if it is broken or not.
Even if used "properly" the item will never do anything else than skrewing the game balance

[Turcano]

Effects from a bag of many things are bestowed upon the person who drew the card, so it's pretty clearly non-transferable. The deck of many things is also schmuck bait, and its presence is compelling evidence that your DM secretly hates you and wants you to suffer.


Hmm.

Our DM just handed my Warblade with a Deck of Many Things. Inside a Bag of Devouring. :smallconfused:

AT LEVEL 2! :smalleek:

Your DM isn't even being subtle about it.

[Falconsflight]

Wait, so you were handed a deck of many things? Someone in your party has a deck of many things in his pocket or whatever? HE HE HE... HAVE Fun with it! Screw with the DM, He expects you to draw a card. Don't. Go into town, a tavern. Play a card game, do a magic trick.
"pick a card, any card."
Suddenly that level 1 comoner has 10k exp points.

[Jack Mann]

Oh, Deck of Many Things? That brings back so many terrible memories... You think your DM's bad? Read this:


Okay, so, a new DM asks me to join his game. I figure, what the hell, what could go wrong? So I rolled up a shifter monk, longstrider that eventually took cliffwalk as a second trait.

Now, he's come up with (or else found on the internet, I was never sure just which) something called a shoulder dragon. It was a symbiotic creature that you could get in his campaign. His deal for me was this: I could have two magic items at start up (we began at level two), or I could have this creature that would raise in abilities as I leveled up. I figured, what the hell, and chose the dragon.

Oy. Well, first, he didn't mention something to me. These things need to eat. What do they eat? Platinum. Which, he'd decided, is ten times as rare in his campaign. If it doesn't get fed, he gets weaker, and so do I. But because he hadn't mentioned it to me when he sold me on the idea, he gave me a fair supply of "dragon feed"; over a thousand platinum. Righto.

So, I've got this dragon on my back. It gives me several benefits. Natural armor, an extra 1d4 flame damage from my unarmed strike, and a bonus to grapple from the dragon's tail, if I recall correctly.

Now, we go on an adventure, do some things, and then, by accident, my character finds a deck of cards the DM decided to put in to spice things up. Three guesses what it was, kiddies. Was it an innocent pack of playing cards? Nope. Was it a deck of illusions? Try again. Deck of many things? Ding ding ding! You've got it. I draw two cards. I get wish and experience.

Now the DM suggests I use the wish to get the deck of many things back, but with the choice of getting a better chance of something good.

Cut to a scene of the rules on the floor, clothes ripped, weeping, trying to cover themselves up after the brutal assault they just took. We are all now level 12. I also have a monk's belt, ring of protection +3, and a gauntlet of the dwarven forge, though I can't remember which we actually got from the wishes. Monk's belt, probably.

Now, I mentioned how the dragon's abilities improved with time? Oy. My natural armor is now +12. I'm getting an extra 1d8 damage with my unarmed strikes. I have +11 to my grapple from the dragon. And it also raised my ability scores (as did the wishes, though I actually didn't abuse them as much as the DM would have let me). My stats were the following: 23 22 16 24 28 14. No, I don't know how the damned thing raised my Int and Wis. It was apparently just that good. My AC was 43, which is pretty respectable for a monk.

Of course, one of the other characters, from the start of the game, had a pair of special rapiers. One was just something where he could throw the blade. The other, however, would cause any body part it hit to completely disappear. If you hit someone on the arm, they would lose that arm. If you hit someone on the head, they would lose their head. If you hit them on the torso, their entire body would disappear, and they would never be seen again. Imagine a vorpal weapon, except any hit will take them out permanently.

There was also some random cursing and whatnot. I ended up changing gender at night for some reason (it's kind of fuzzy as to why, but it's there on my character sheet). Also, there was a demon of some sort who injected a cursed poison into my arm. It was going to slowly seap up through my system until something or other happened, unless I happened to go on a quest.

I just had my character cut off his arm. After all, he's a shifter. What does an animal do when its limb is caught in a trap?

I don't think I played anymore sessions of the game after that.

[Stephen_E]

Deck's of many things are Artifacts.

You only draw from the deck if you wish to, and you specify the total number you draw before you draw any. This implys you can't draw unless you know you're drawing from a deck of many things, and you can't be compelled. It's an artifact, I think it overides any petty magic, upto and including 9th level spells.

So -
1) No, you can't summon something and get them to draw a card and handover the goodies, disregarding that very few of the goodies are stuff that can be handed over.

2) No, it's not broken, but it is alignment defining on the Chaotic/Lawful axis.
Lawful Players (not PCs) will 90%+ hate it, Chaotic players will 90% love it.

3) Is it worth drawing from. If you are 10th+ level, yes, but keep in mind that each draw has a 1/22 chance of taking out your PC for at the minimum the near future, but providing a plot hook for the rest of the party (The Void), 1/22 a personal Mordakeins Disjunction with 100% on you only. Ok at lower levels, but a killer at high level (Talon), 1/22 alignment change, not a problem for most characters, but Chaotic Barbarians, True Neutral Druids, Monks and Paladins effectively have a 50% higher chance of been screwed. Everything else is good or managable.

4) Does it unbalance the game? At appropriate levels, No. None of the effects are powerful enough to unbalance the game unless half the party draws the Void or something. Indeed it can actually provide plothooks, as Artifacts often do. If you give it to a 2nd level character then yes, it'll unbalance the game the same as any minor atrifact will at 2nd level. Why do people say it unbalces the game? See point 2)

Stephen

[KIDS]

I can't find any reasonable way to abuse the Deck of Many Things. It's not broken, it's just silly and too random for a majority of players, though I can completely understand why people like it.

[Like a Lion]

The way things are written, Augury and other divinations will let you abuse the DoMT. Don't expect DMs to let that fly, though.

[Callix]

Augury will just say "Weal and Woe". If you draw, some cool stuff happens, and the deck disappears. Or, some awful stuff happens, but at least that awful Deck is gone. Finally, the DM can just say that artifacts are beyond mortal magic to predict. The outcome is truly random. (chaos theory anyone? If you drew when you cast the spell, it would have been good. You didn't. You were casting the spell. So, when you drew, you drew the Void.)

[Jack Mann]

First, you're rather wrong about Augury. The deck leaving after your draw is not good or bad. You've already drawn your cards, and you can't draw again anyway. If you're imprisoned or stripped of your wealth by a card, that's a pretty clear case of woe. If you gain a level, that's straight in weal category. What happens to the deck afterward does not, generally, help or hinder you (except in the unlikely case that in falls into the hands of your enemies or allies).

And yes, most DMs won't allow it. And?

Lion's point was that as the rules are written, you can use those spells to up your chances of getting something good (or at least avoiding something bad). There is nothing in the rules that would prevent this. Notice that in his second sentence, he goes on to say that most DMs won't let it fly. They probably will say the spell can't work on an artifact. But that's a houserule, rule zero. Read this thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=47350), or at least the first post. I don't feel like repeating myself there.

And finally, to paraphrase Morbo the newsmonster, Chaos Theory does not work that way! If it's truly random, then chaos theory does not apply.

[Dausuul]

I can't find any reasonable way to abuse the Deck of Many Things. It's not broken, it's just silly and too random for a majority of players, though I can completely understand why people like it.

You don't need to abuse it. It abuses itself.

[Callix]

Sorry. Can't seem to put anything right today. By RAW, there are abuses. The simplest way to avoid is not to use artifacts. But the potential is there.

[Citizen Joe]

Yea, the Deck of Many Things is never good for balance. But I did have some fun when I got the Vizier card back in 2nd Edition. Its supposed to answer one question for you, but I saved that question for a while. Eventually, the party ran into some sort of sphinx creature (can't remember the name of it). But it asks a nonsensical question with no answer, like "What is the speed of Blue?" Well it turns out that this creature attacks if you guess wrong, but if you guess right, it explodes into a nasty chain lightning attack but there's a small chance that you get a clue to the whereabouts of the Spelljammer. So it asks its question and I say, "I call for help from the Vizier to answer the riddle." He shows up and says "RUN AWAY!"

[Matthew]

Citizen Joe - Now that's a great story.

[Middle Snu]

The Aftermath

Short Story-I broke the deck.

Long Story-As a party, we decided to sell the Deck. Most of the party went to seek out buyers, while I (Level 9 Wizard) teleported away to hide from anyone trying to steal the deck. We made plans to link up in a month.

During the month, my character learned dominate person and purchased a total of 50 slaves. Then I dominated them and made them pick three cards each. My character quickly netted (with a nonstandard deck, as it turns out):

A Pegasus
A hippogriff,
Anightmare
150 gems worth 1000 GP each
+2 to Intelligence (wishes)
A guy who knows the furture and can answer one question
Another guy who can answer any question
Boccob's Blessed Book
2 small keeps.
Remember, this is all transferable loot.

I used one of the question-answering guys to ask "how many cards can I draw from this deck before getting a negative effect?" The answer was 5, which netted me personally
25 valuable pieces of jewelry
2 Wishes
1 Wish
A Nymph falling in love with you
And +2 to any ability score

Then I teleported back, the party none the wiser to my newfound acquisitions.

So yes, the Deck of Many Things is breakable.

[Stephen_E]

The Aftermath

Short Story-I broke the deck.

Long Story-As a party, we decided to sell the Deck. Most of the party went to seek out buyers, while I (Level 9 Wizard) teleported away to hide from anyone trying to steal the deck. We made plans to link up in a month.

During the month, my character learned dominate person and purchased a total of 50 slaves. Then I dominated them and made them pick three cards each. My character quickly netted (with a nonstandard deck, as it turns out):

<snipped>
So yes, the Deck of Many Things is breakable.

Anything is breakable if the GM allows it. Since you have to choose to draw from the Deck, and you were choosing, not the dominated people, all the effects should've targeted you, not the slaves.

Using a dominated person to draw from a deck of many things is no different from using a Mage Hand.

The deck of many things can be broken by the simple effect that it is a minor artifact, so if you give it to a low level campaign it throws everything out.

As for other "it's broken because I can get others to draw and take their stuff". The Deck quite clearly has the power to know how many cards you've chosen to draw, and makes you draw once you've chosen. To think it'll be fooled by using a dominated patsy is simply ridiculous. If you talk people into drawing for themselves and dominating afterwards, well that'd get some of the stuff like the jewels, but things like the Keep are trickier - Wiz -"I've come for my keep", Officials - "I'm sorry sir, but the keep belongs to person "x". ", Wiz "He signed it over to me freely of his own will", Officials "Can you prove that sir", Wiz "He's here to tell you him self". Officials "Very good Mr "x" if you can just confirm that inside a circle of Prot from Evil and a Zone of Truth. What's that Mr "X"? He cast a spell on you and made you say those things! We'll have to do something about that". And if they get something like a Wish, you better hope they fail that will save, or you're probably going to be a dead 9th lev Wiz.

Stephen

[Awetugiw]

He did specify he was using slaves, so the keep thing would probably work.

[puppyavenger]

a rust monster

Why they are great to put in the bottem of pit's.:smallbiggrin:

And my charector has a pet one

[Saph]

Short Story-I broke the deck.

<snip>

So yes, the Deck of Many Things is breakable.

Eh. If your DM's that lax on rules, you're pretty much guaranteed to break the game sooner or later.

Can't really fault you from a player's perspective, but from a DM's perspective this is a bad ruling. If you have any combination that gives the PCs infinite (or effectively infinite) wealth, it's a good sign that you need to rethink your reading of the rules. In this case, it's normally one of the standards of D&D that non-epic magic doesn't work for tricking/avoiding the bad effects of artifacts. If you rule that they do work, then many of the artifacts become functionally equivalent to free money, and handing one out as treasure is like handing out a million GP . . . to only one character. Bad idea.

- Saph

[DaMullet]

The deck of many things says that you shuffle it after every draw, except the Joker and Fool. You can't predict it past one card in any case. The cards get put back after they're read.

[cubecrazymonkey]

I'm really not a fan of the deck- in my campaign, one character drew the 50,000 XP, and an effect that would grant him a level upon his next kill. So he found a mouse, and leveled to 13 while the rest of us were at 7. It threw off the campaign horribly... The DM upped our encounters to match his new strength, so he (a barbarian) was the only one doing damage and the rest of use would drop in just a hit or two from the monsters we faced. We realized pretty quick what the problem was, and we've since rebalanced things, but its frustrating how much that can mess up the game.

At least there was some karmic retribution: After the first character made out like a bandit, the player had his second character draw and was immediately imprisoned deep inside the earth. :smallamused:

[MaxKaladin]

I'm really not a fan of the deck- in my campaign, one character drew the 50,000 XP, and an effect that would grant him a level upon his next kill. So he found a mouse, and leveled to 13 while the rest of us were at 7. It threw off the campaign horribly... The DM upped our encounters to match his new strength, so he (a barbarian) was the only one doing damage and the rest of use would drop in just a hit or two from the monsters we faced. We realized pretty quick what the problem was, and we've since rebalanced things, but its frustrating how much that can mess up the game.There's a rule that says you can't go up more than one level at a time so he should have gone up only two levels from that. One for the 50,000xp stopping one xp shy of the next level and then leveling up again when he kills the next monster.

[bosssmiley]

Deck on Many Things (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/artifacts.htm#deckofManyThings) = artifact (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/artifacts.htm).

Brokenness is not really a valid question where artifacts are involved. They are supposed to do legendary, mind-boggling, campaign-altering, outright impossible stuff. This is part of why PCs aren't allowed to make them (and why 2nd Ed. devoted a whole book to the things!). :smallwink:

[Amphimir Míriel]

When my first DM (from the eighties) moved, he gave away most of his gaming stuff... among that stuff were some photocopies of a Dungeon Magazine that had a 1st ed AD&D adventure called House of Cards

It is basically a dungeon where every door has a card from the Deck of Many Things (facing the door, no way to know which card is on which door). To make long story short, the only way to open the door was to draw the card... And the party has to draw all the cards in order to finish the adventure... ouch! I guess the wishes get spent undoing the effects of the Void, Donjon and Fool cards... :smallwink:

[evisiron]

We got one of these suckers in our Evil campaign today. Of course, we volunteered the NPC with the party to try first, and got the fool.

Realising what it was, we tried to tilt the odds in our favour by having people draw the cards for us to get rid of the bad ones (didn't realise it reshuffled in character yet).

I was rather pleased. We set up a 'fortune tellers' stall were the teller said "State the number of cards and draw that many". We then had my assassin sit behind the customer studying him for three rounds in case he struck gold and we could take his stuff.

Following results:
1. Got the keep and wandered off
2. Got gems (which we stole and sold)
3. Got the major magic item, but the guy drew the 'lose all your possessions' one and the sword dissappeared. D'oh.
4. Summoned wraith. Guy died, we made it out alive.

We decided to leave it at that, so I wrote a note saying 'Finders Keepers...', wrapped the deck in the note, and tucked the lot into the corpses pocket for the next person to find.

So overall, not too bad.

[sleeping fishy]

i agree w/ the folks who said it breaks games cuz its a freakin ARTIFACT... but its worse than most, because its so random, so it ruins some players & boosts others.

[RandomNPC]

broken like a thing that has been broken.

still fun. our group had stopped the first plot of the BBEG and took his keeps, giving each one a name based on one of the characters. then the fighter drew ruin, guess what keep fell apart.

the deck is 11 good and 11 bad, some are kinda argueable, but thats the idea. it's like rolling a % to see if you rip up your character sheet and give away all your books, or keep playing this week.

[Stephen_E]

I'm really not a fan of the deck- in my campaign, one character drew the 50,000 XP, and an effect that would grant him a level upon his next kill. So he found a mouse, and leveled to 13 while the rest of us were at 7. It threw off the campaign horribly... The DM upped our encounters to match his new strength, so he (a barbarian) was the only one doing damage and the rest of use would drop in just a hit or two from the monsters we faced. We realized pretty quick what the problem was, and we've since rebalanced things, but its frustrating how much that can mess up the game.


Not sure what Deck you were using, but the 3.5 Deck of Many Things gives you 10,000 xp, not 50,000, and you have to single handedly kill the next hostile monster, or monsters encountered. I'm sorry, it what concievable way was that mouse a hostile monster?





broken like a thing that has been broken.
<snipped>

the deck is 11 good and 11 bad, some are kinda argueable, but thats the idea. it's like rolling a % to see if you rip up your character sheet and give away all your books, or keep playing this week.

You're playing DnD. Combat involves rolling dice to hit, do damage, and make saves. I guess that's like rolling a % to see you rip up your character sheet and give away all your books, or keep playing this week. <roll eyes>

Unless you're an alignment based class there 1 card that finishes your character except at high/epic levels (the Void), 1 card that splits the party and creates a plot hook that the party must follow to retrieve the PC, or requires a 9th lev spell to avoid losing the PC, DMs choice (the Donjon), and one that screws a high level character - Lose all magic items permanently (Talons). All the other cards range from great to annoying and/or dangerous, but with potential upsides (Fighting Dread Wraiths can be bad news, but if you're prepared they are beatable, and think of all the xp, and anyone in the party can share by smacking your Wraith, helping you win, as well as getting their own Dire Wraith to gain xp from).

Note: With the Skull - Dread Wraith appears and attacks drawer, the additional Dread Wraith that appear and attack anyone who assists should be given the oprion of "opting out" against sufficiently tough parties. This avoids the level 23 party buffing up and hoping someone draws the skull, and then leaping in to assist, and using it as a Dread Wraith/XP generator. But that's part of the GMs job.

Stephen

[sleeping fishy]

You're playing DnD. Combat involves rolling dice to hit, do damage, and make saves. I guess that's like rolling a % to see you rip up your character sheet and give away all your books, or keep playing this week. <roll eyes>


lol, as if cards that totally kill imprison or ruin the character were the same as combat

[Kurald Galain]

Not sure what Deck you were using, but the 3.5 Deck of Many Things gives you 10,000 xp

2nd edition deck gives you more XP, because you need more XP per level in that edition. 1st ed, ditto. Also, some of the other powers were more nebulously defined.

The concept of getting no experience from a fight that wasn't challenging was also not particularly clear in 2nd ed (and since the XP table was kind of exponential it was less big of a deal if a 15th level character would still get 200 XP from killing some orcs). In fact, it was explicitly stated that, for defeating a monster, a fighter would get bonus XP equal to 10 x monster HD x fighter level.

[CASTLEMIKE]

Not sure what Deck you were using, but the 3.5 Deck of Many Things gives you 10,000 xp, not 50,000, and you have to single handedly kill the next hostile monster, or monsters encountered. I'm sorry, it what concievable way was that mouse a hostile monster?

Stephen

You are incorrect the King of Diamonds gives you a Wonderous Magic Item and 50,000 XP in 3.5 DMG page 278.

Maybe it was an attack mouse with a 5% chance of giving him a disease or a 1 HP injury. He would have been defeated if it had gotten away and never got the level.

It's a game he took a 50/50 chance and he got lucky.

[Stephen_E]

You are incorrect the King of Diamonds gives you a Wonderous Magic Item and 50,000 XP in 3.5 DMG page 278.

Maybe it was an attack mouse with a 5% chance of giving him a disease or a 1 HP injury. He would have been defeated if it had gotten away and never got the level.

It's a game he took a 50/50 chance and he got lucky.

Apologies. I looked for the xp card, not Wonderous item and xp.
Although that still ignores the point that you can't gain more than 1 level from a source, so a 1st lev PC with 0xp that draws that card will go to 2nd level and 2,999 xp. The other 47,001 xp will be lost.

If the GM ruled that a mouse was a hostile monster then that's the GM deciding to gift him a level, not the Deck giving him a level.

Stephen

[Stephen_E]

Originally Posted by Stephen_E
You're playing DnD. Combat involves rolling dice to hit, do damage, and make saves. I guess that's like rolling a % to see you rip up your character sheet and give away all your books, or keep playing this week. <roll eyes>


lol, as if cards that totally kill imprison or ruin the character were the same as combat

Ruin is lose all non-magical equipment. Whoop-de-doo. In anything but a low magic game that represents a small chunk of your wealth. If it's a low magic game what the hell are you doing with a Deck of Many Things.

Re: Imprison: Yes, this card can have a major effect depending our your level and how your GM plays it, but since it happens to be a spell that the bad guys can conceivably cast at you, yes, it is something that could happen in a standard combat.

The void is the only significantly bad card that isn't duplicating something that could happen in a combat. 1 in 22. If those odds really concern you don't draw.

Stephen

[BabbageCliolog]

My DM has, for no reason I can discern, handed our party (9th-level) a Deck of Many Things. So far, no character has drawn a card.

Is there any particular reason why my character (9th-level Wizard) cannot simply use Summon Monster to have monsters draw cards for him, then command them to hand over the benefits (wishes, gold, magic, etc)? If not... well, this item seems a little broken.

Well, you got two options. Use the deck and face the consequences or don't. I'd vote for an all or nothing for the group. Either decide to drop it down the first pit you get to or blackmail your GM with it by stating that every PC will pick the maximum number of cards - all 22 since the rules state that each card replaces into the deck (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/artifacts.htm#deckofManyThings) - thereby resulting in a TPK if he doesn't stop this foolishness and change the deck into something like a Deck of Illusions (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#deckofIllusions) or drop it completely from the game.

If you use it, the campaign will be effectively over with several bad draws (and probably even with some of the good ones).

/BC

[Stephen_E]

Well, you got two options. Use the deck and face the consequences or don't. I'd vote for an all or nothing for the group. Either decide to drop it down the first pit you get to or blackmail your GM with it by stating that every PC will pick the maximum number of cards - all 22 since the rules state that each card replaces into the deck (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/artifacts.htm#deckofManyThings) - thereby resulting in a TPK if he doesn't stop this foolishness and change the deck into something like a Deck of Illusions (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#deckofIllusions) or drop it completely from the game.

If you use it, the campaign will be effectively over with several bad draws (and probably even with some of the good ones).

/BC

A clear example of a Lawful player discussing the Deck of Many Things.

Just to clear up one mistake. Because you replace cards and reshuffle after each card is drawn, it is possible to draw 22 cards and get the 1d4 wishes 22 times. This is unlikely, but not impossible.

Otherwise the silly hyperbole about Decks of Many Things will end the campaign for a 9th lev party are just that, silly hyperbole. My personal reccomendation is to draw between 1-3 cards. Beyond that you're just increasing your chance of getting screwed without significantly incresing your reward. Before deciding to draw have Deathward and Prot from Evil cast on you. plus any other buffs that are useful. If you group collect treasure and only divide it out at convient times, draw the cards before do a split.

Drawing is a PC by PC choice because the Deck is riskier for some compared to others. Wizards, Paladins, Monks, Chaotic Barbarians and Neutral Druids are more at risk than other PCs. Work out how to handle treasure gains and losses before starting draws. -
Will treasure gained be added to the party swag? (Gem, Key, Sun, Throne)
Will party funds be used to replace losses? (Ruin, Talons)
Will one shot advantages be used for the party or the PC? (Moon, Vizier)
Will the party try and help/rescue a PC (Donjon, Flames, The Void)

My last experiance with the Deck I was the only person willing to draw. We were playing a very shared wealth game, but the party decided that I wouldn't be reinbused for any losses, but were rather unhappy when I said "in that case I don't need to share any benefits". I was going to Choose a draw of 3 cards, but at the last moment changed my mind and said I'll draw 2. I got the Keep and 3 wishes. Some of the party goy snarkey about me keeping them for myself and not having them count as part of my personal wealth for split purposes, but my GM who thought they were a bunch of wusses (another Chaotic) pointed out that they were of lawful alignment, and that they'd be breaking their agreements.

We looked at what the 3rd draw would've been....... The Void. :smallbiggrin:

Stephen

[BabbageCliolog]

A clear example of a Lawful player discussing the Deck of Many Things.

Not quite . . .


Just to clear up one mistake. Because you replace cards and reshuffle after each card is drawn

Where does it state "reshuffle" after each card drawn. I've read the description (see link). It only states that you replace cards, not reshuffle.


, it is possible to draw 22 cards and get the 1d4 wishes 22 times. This is unlikely, but not impossible.

Actually, the chances of that are 22 to the 22nd power. That's very unlikely. And where does it state to reshuffle?


Otherwise the silly hyperbole about Decks of Many Things will end the campaign for a 9th lev party are just that, silly hyperbole.

An artifact to a 9th level party *does* end a campaign. It's a campaign-breaker. The CL is 20! Would a single (or 11) 20th level opponents be appropriate to a group of 4 9th level characters? That's not *silly hyperbole* to me.


<snip rest>

Avoid it and hit your GM over the head with a PHB. That's probably the best way to deal with this.

/BC

[Stephen_E]

Where does it state "reshuffle" after each card drawn. I've read the description (see link). It only states that you replace cards, not reshuffle.

It says it's possible to draw the same card twice. This is only possible if you reshuffle/cut after each draw. or use some other way to break the card order. Therefore you should be reshuffling/cutting after each draw, or using non-sequential drawing.


An artifact to a 9th level party *does* end a campaign. It's a campaign-breaker. The CL is 20! Would a single (or 11) 20th level opponents be appropriate to a group of 4 9th level characters? That's not *silly hyperbole* to me.

An Artifact isn't an opponent. An Artifact that requires a CL20 to make doesn't = 1 or 11 20th level opponents.

So a Book of Vile Darkness is a gamebreaker to a 9th level party. Hmm..., so a Evil spellcaster receving a +1 inherent bonus to Wis, and a level increase, and neutral PCs touching it receiving 5d4 damage, and good PCs take 5d6 damage + Good PC's stupid enough to then try and read it have more unpleasant things happen. Yeah.., that so ends a campaign.

Yes your statement is hyperbole.



Avoid it and hit your GM over the head with a PHB. That's probably the best way to deal with this.

/BC

And thus you make my point about hyperbole......

I'm coming to the view that the Deck of Many Things is much like the Spiked Chain. There is a sizable chunk of people out there who hate it. They'll tell you it's broken, but when you try to get a clear definition of why it's broken you get lots of hyperbole and emotional output, but ussually when it comes down to it the objections seem to be more about how the item operates, rather than what it actually outputs in game terms.

Stephen

[Grug]

Oh, Deck of Many Things? That brings back so many terrible memories... You think your DM's bad? Read this:

That sounds fun, not bad.

[Dausuul]

It says it's possible to draw the same card twice. This is only possible if you reshuffle/cut after each draw. or use some other way to break the card order. Therefore you should be reshuffling/cutting after each draw, or using non-sequential drawing.



An Artifact isn't an opponent. An Artifact that requires a CL20 to make doesn't = 1 or 11 20th level opponents.

So a Book of Vile Darkness is a gamebreaker to a 9th level party. Hmm..., so a Evil spellcaster receving a +1 inherent bonus to Wis, and a level increase, and neutral PCs touching it receiving 5d4 damage, and good PCs take 5d6 damage + Good PC's stupid enough to then try and read it have more unpleasant things happen. Yeah.., that so ends a campaign.

Yes your statement is hyperbole.



And thus you make my point about hyperbole......

I'm coming to the view that the Deck of Many Things is much like the Spiked Chain. There is a sizable chunk of people out there who hate it. They'll tell you it's broken, but when you try to get a clear definition of why it's broken you get lots of hyperbole and emotional output, but ussually when it comes down to it the objections seem to be more about how the item operates, rather than what it actually outputs in game terms.

Stephen

Spiked chains... well, they're way better than any other exotic weapon in the PHB, so either they're broken or all the other exotic weapons are underpowered.

*thinks about that for a bit*

Okay, so spiked chains aren't broken. :smallbiggrin:

As for the deck of many things, it has potential to mess with a game, but it probably won't break a high-level campaign. Low-level campaigns are likely to be thoroughly messed up by the huge influx of wealth. But then, a low-level campaign would likewise be messed up if you dropped in, say, a staff of the magi.

[BabbageCliolog]

It says it's possible to draw the same card twice. This is only possible if you reshuffle/cut after each draw. or use some other way to break the card order. Therefore you should be reshuffling/cutting after each draw, or using non-sequential drawing.

Actually, it *IS* possible to draw the same card again if you simply place it somewhere in the deck without reshuffling. In fact, if I was GMing, I'd just stick it in the deck. No shuffling required.


An Artifact isn't an opponent. An Artifact that requires a CL20 to make doesn't = 1 or 11 20th level opponents.

Donjon = no save.
Void = no save.
Skull = defeat 16HD Dread Wraith.

What CR would you say ANY of these is?


So a Book of Vile Darkness is a gamebreaker to a 9th level party.

Is the Book of Vile Darkness an artifact?


Yes your statement is hyperbole.

My statement is my opinion. That doesn't make it hyperbole - "obvious and intentional exaggeration."

It isn't an exaggeration. The Deck of Many Things is a campaign breaker for a 9th level party IMHO.


I'm coming to the view that the Deck of Many Things is much like the Spiked Chain.

The spiked chain is not a artifact.

"Artifacts are extremely powerful. Rather than merely another form of magic equipment, they are the sorts of legendary relics that whole campaigns can be based on. Each could be the center of a whole set of adventures—a quest to recover it, a fight against a opponent wielding it, a mission to cause its destruction, and so on."

The Void card is *Poof* no save. Just random draw. In practically every other game situation, you at least get to *do* something, even against a spiked chain.

/BC

[Stephen_E]

Actually, it *IS* possible to draw the same card again if you simply place it somewhere in the deck without reshuffling. In fact, if I was GMing, I'd just stick it in the deck. No shuffling required.

Technically this can be described as shuffling, since you're mixing the order, even if in a very limited way.




Donjon = no save.
Void = no save.
Skull = defeat 16HD Dread Wraith.

What CR would you say ANY of these is?

Dread Wraith = CR11
Donjon has 2 settings. One is the imprisonment spell, with no save, but lets face it, the Imprisonemnt spell is around the "need to roll a 20" for anyone without a Strong Will save AND a decent Wis. So you're looking at the difference between a single spell cast by 17th level Wizard, and a 1/22 chance of drawing the card (and the Wizard can do a lot more than cast the one spell).
The other is GM decides to imprison PC somewhere with the party having to track down and rescue him, and he trying to free himself.
Both of these are whatever CR the GM desires, but the 1st is limited to a max CR17.
Void: Requires a Wish or Miracle to find location before rescue can be performed. Thus this is probably a CR17+ encounter. The "+" is because the GM then gets to set down how hard the adventure is.



Is the Book of Vile Darkness an artifact?

Yes. A Minor Artifact as the Deck of Many Things is. In fact it's the entry above it. Requires CL 19 instead of CL 20 to make.



My statement is my opinion. That doesn't make it hyperbole - "obvious and intentional exaggeration."

Fair point. I thought you were using hyperbole, but given the vehmanance with which you've defended your POV I'll concede you aren't using hyperbole. Is there are word for "obvious, misguided exaggeration"? :-)



It isn't an exaggeration. The Deck of Many Things is a campaign breaker for a 9th level party IMHO.

22 cards - Lets see which of these are campaign breakers for a 9th lev party.
Balance - Change alignment. No break.
Comet - Kill next monster and gain level. No break.
Donjon - Imprisonment - requires 9th lev spell to negate, or GM campaign hook. No break.
Euryale - -1 on all saving throws. No break.
The Fates - a personal one shot - "get out of jail free" No break.
Flames - Death feud with outsider. No break.
Fool - lose 10,000xp (1 level) and draw again. No break.
Gem - Gems or Jewelery. Loot. No break.
Idiot - 1d4+1 permanent Int drain. Requires Restoration to heal. No break.
Jester - Gain 10,000 xp (1 level) No break.
Key - Gain Major Magic Weapon - see table 7.9. No break.
Knight - gain a 4th lev Fighter Cohort. No break.
Moon - 1d4 wishes. No break.
Rogue - 1 NPC friend will betray you. No break.
Ruin - lose all current non-magical wealth/equipment. No break.
Skull - Defeat Dread Wraith CR11 or be destroyed. No break.
Star - +2 Inherent bonus to stat of choice. No break.
Sun - Gain beneificial Wonderous item and 50,000xp (1 level) No break.
Talons - Lose all magical equipment. No break.
Throne - +6 Dip bonus + Small Keep. No break.
Vizier - one shot "WTF is going on". Use within 1 year. No break.
The Void - Soul is trapped on Far Plane or World. 9th lev spell to reveal location. Ends campaign for one PC.

So ONE card is a campaign ender for ONE PC.
Care to review your opinion. I'm quite willing to argue card by card if you dispute my assessments.




The spiked chain is not a artifact.
/BC

The similarity is, as I noted, in the responce it raises in people.

Stephen

[Renx]

Just a comment, I don't think the Keep would be transferable until you find out exactly where it IS :P So Dominate Person wouldn't help with it until then.

Also, isn't there a rule about how many people the Deck works for until it disappears? Maybe '1 group of people'.

Anyway, IMO the Deck of Many Thing is ...interesting to throw at players. I once saw a DM pull a stunt on someone who tried the Augury way. He asked 'What will I get' or something similar, and as a result thought he was getting Wishes. So, of course, he pulls a card happily.

The DM grins "You feel a small shift, like someone walked on your grave." then rolls the dice.

He got the Void.

General consensus was that he got what he deserved, was looted and the items sold to his next character.

//Edit1: Interesting house rule about the Deck: Wild Mages get to change the result by +1 or -1 :P

[Stephen_E]

I would say that if the GM is house moding the possible Draws he should make clear exactly what changes he's making.

From a game POV any halfway decent bard should have all the details on the thing. Afterall they're great story items.

From a Metagame perspective, if you don't know exactly what your chances are it should be tossed in the nearest Ravine. The GM may think he's made fair changes, but he isn't doing the drawing. To draw from a Deck of Many Things without knowing what's in it, is like choosing a class to play which the GM has changed, but he won't tell you the changes until you decide to play it.

Stephen

[Saph]

I would say that if the GM is house moding the possible Draws he should make clear exactly what changes he's making.

From a game POV any halfway decent bard should have all the details on the thing. Afterall they're great story items.

No, he should have some of the details on the thing.

Good GMs will pretty much never tell you everything about an artifact. If there's no mystery, there's no interest.

- Saph

[The White Knight]

When we received a Deck of Many Things in a campaign once, our Fighter/Psion reached for a pair of d10s and rolled them. He then proceeded to declare "I will draw 46 cards" (or some other arbitrarily ridiculous amount in that area, decided by his percentile roll). He lucked out, getting the "avoid any situation" and "gain 1d3 wishes" results a few times each early on, allowing him to evade nearly every significantly negative effect that came throughout the course of the remaining cards. It was gawdawful.

[Jimmy Discordia]

All right, I'm hearing a lot of Deck of Many Things bashing going on here, so I feel compelled to chime in. Being more-or-less Chaotic Neutral (with maybe some slight Good tendencies) in real life, the Deck is one of my favorite magic items, because it shakes things up. A good DM will do what it takes to bring the world back into balance if any of the really good/really bad results are drawn... a great one will do it in a way that's at least halfway logical.

But game balance isn't what the Deck is about. It's a minor artifact, and if there were DM schools (are there?) one of the first things they'd teach you at them is that artifacts of any caliber are going to seriously throw the world out of balance, at least in the short run. That's what makes them fun - at least for a while, you get to mess about with Things Man Was Not Meant To Know, or at least Not Meant To Mess About With. The really bad cards have "adventure hook" written all over them - if the DM isn't prepared to run an adventure like that, he shouldn't bring a Deck into the game.

With that said, does anyone else remember the Tarot Deck of Many Things? I can't remember the original source, but it showed up in the 2E Encyclopedia Magica. Now that was a cool item. For those of you who missed it, you took a standard Tarot deck, shuffled, cut, inverted half the cards, and shuffled again. There were defined effects for every single card, and whether they were good or bad depended on which way they were facing when you turned them over. 156 major random magical effects in one item - good times. It's a pity I never got an excuse to put one of those in a campaign. I think that one wins as my favorite magic item/artifact ever.

[CASTLEMIKE]

Apologies. I looked for the xp card, not Wonderous item and xp.
Although that still ignores the point that you can't gain more than 1 level from a source, so a 1st lev PC with 0xp that draws that card will go to 2nd level and 2,999 xp. The other 47,001 xp will be lost.

If the GM ruled that a mouse was a hostile monster then that's the GM deciding to gift him a level, not the Deck giving him a level.

Stephen

The Deck of Many Things is an artifact which can have major effect on a campaign either beneficial or detrimental to the PCs usually it will have a mixture of both as parties are composed of groups. One or two players will elect not to draw and one or two will elect to draw a single card and there is almost always the guy who will draw three or more because it is a game.

Sometimes in a low level game like the example in this thread someone gets lucky and levels up to legendary maybe with a few wishes or a keep and a lot of time then retires that character and gets to roll up a new one with a few bennies from the DM and it was memorable for everybody. If you roll draw bad you either go on a few adventures to rescue the PC or you make a new one.

The PCs have the choice of choosing to draw one or more cards or electing not not to draw any. The DMs are few and far between who wouldn't allow the PCs to trade it in for something beneficial to the party if all party members elected not to draw.

Like life it doesn't come with a rulebook. It is a game artifact and while PCs may know some generalities regarding it according to legends like it can grant riches, wishes or a castle there is a corresponding chance it will destroy you or your possessions and each draw tempts fate so it is unwise to take more than a few draws and even a single draw could destroy you. Some DMs will tweak it.

I disagree regarding your interpretation of the deck. Level 11+ is considered "Legendary" for the purposes of the Legend Lore spell. That single draw can make a PC a Legendary Hero it is that powerful.

It's an artifact which SPECIFICALLY says it grants the PC a medium wonderous item and 50,000 XP without any text saying any of it will be lost to the PC leveling up (1 in 22 chance).

If you tweak that card down against the party now it isn't a 50/50 Good/Bad magic artifact it's more like 47/53 Good/Bad for a low level party some benefit.

For game balance are you going to tweak down the Fool or Joker from Losing 10,000 XP to only drop the PC a single level?

Lastly there is nothing in the text that says the encounter with the hostile monster has to be an equivalent level CR hostile monster. The PC drew the card and most DMs grant them the award without gimping them.

[Telonius]

EDIT: Argh, stupid site, not letting me post in time ... please ignore this.

[Poppatomus]

Sympathetic to your overall position, I think its a cool item to throw in, but disagree with your list as follows.


22 cards - Lets see which of these are campaign breakers for a 9th lev party.
Balance - Change alignment. No break.


can break a party by forcing it to fight among themselves rather than continue the campaign. Also, while a cool roleplaying challenge, may make one person's character something that person no longer wants to play.



Flames - Death feud with outsider. No break.


Maybe I'm remembering the power level of this wrong, but especially for a low/mid level party this is earth changing.



Moon - 1d4 wishes. No break.
Ruin - lose all current non-magical wealth/equipment. No break.
Talons - Lose all magical equipment. No break.


Both Depend on power level of campaign, but inclined to agree. more on the first and second than the third though.



Skull - Defeat Dread Wraith CR11 or be destroyed. No break.


CR11 encounter, but there's one for each person involved. meaning that, even if the character(s) in question are level 11 themselves its a 50/50 shot they die. a party of 4 9th level characters, all of whom want to help each other, end up fighting four CR11 characters, whats the ***. CR on that?

[The White Knight]

a party of 4 9th level characters, all of whom want to help each other, end up fighting four CR11 characters, whats the ***. CR on that?

15, to be exact :smalltongue:

This actually happened to us before too, on a separate instance of playing with a deck of many things. At about 5-6th level(ish). It was cleverly wished away with deck-granted wishes mid-battle when things had gone horribly, horribly awry.

[BabbageCliolog]

Technically this can be described as shuffling, since you're mixing the order, even if in a very limited way.

Technically a cat is a dog because they're both mammals. That's not shuffling. Shuffling is not adding one card to a deck of 22 cards. Shuffling is moving all 22 cards around.


Dread Wraith = CR11
Donjon has 2 settings. One is the imprisonment spell, with no save, but lets face it, the Imprisonemnt spell is around the "need to roll a 20" for anyone without a Strong Will save AND a decent Wis. So you're looking at the difference between a single spell cast by 17th level Wizard, and a 1/22 chance of drawing the card (and the Wizard can do a lot more than cast the one spell).

So, no save. No chance to reverse without finding a 17th level wizard to aid. Broken to me.


The other is GM decides to imprison PC somewhere with the party having to track down and rescue him, and he trying to free himself.
Both of these are whatever CR the GM desires, but the 1st is limited to a max CR17.

Yeah, right. So, is the adventure over in a single game session? Or is the finding the imprisoned PC a long-campaign adventure? How many sessions will that take to finish the CR 17? 5? 10? Maybe 15? What's the player going to do in the meantime? That's a break.


Void: Requires a Wish or Miracle to find location before rescue can be performed. Thus this is probably a CR17+ encounter. The "+" is because the GM then gets to set down how hard the adventure is.

So again, a possible long-campaign to find them. That's a break.


Yes. A Minor Artifact as the Deck of Many Things is. In fact it's the entry above it. Requires CL 19 instead of CL 20 to make.

I don't have my DMG so I was going off of the SRD. Does the Book of Vile Darkness allow no save for the bad stuff?


Fair point. I thought you were using hyperbole, but given the vehmanance with which you've defended your POV I'll concede you aren't using hyperbole. Is there are word for "obvious, misguided exaggeration"? :-)

Every game I've played in where we got the Deck of Many Things the campaign broke pretty much when people started drawing cards. It's a breaker, IMHO. No misguide there.


22 cards - Lets see which of these are campaign breakers for a 9th lev party.

I'm going to comment on the breaking ones IMO.


Balance - Change alignment. No break.

Breaks the Barbarian, Paladin and Bard PCs. Maybe a few others, like Cleric or Druid as well.


Donjon - Imprisonment - requires 9th lev spell to negate, or GM campaign hook. No break.

Break. See above.


Flames - Death feud with outsider. No break.

Could be a break because the GM might decide on a very powerful outsider that is beyond CR 9.


Skull - Defeat Dread Wraith CR11 or be destroyed. No break.

Break for a 9th level party. CR 11 is for 4 9th level PCs, not one. What is that equivalent for 1 9th level PC? And it could potentially get to be 4 dread wraiths for a party of 4 9th level PCs. Break, break, break!


Talons - Lose all magical equipment. No break.

Break! A 9th level PC without magic items is not the same as a 9th level PC with magic items. CRs then go up.


The Void - Soul is trapped on Far Plane or World. 9th lev spell to reveal location. Ends campaign for one PC.

Break, see above.


So SIX card are campaign enders.

Corrected.


Care to review your opinion.

Nope. Still broken.


I'm quite willing to argue card by card if you dispute my assessments.

Still broken, IMO.


The similarity is, as I noted, in the responce it raises in people.

Yeah, a spiked chain is like a Deck of Many Things like a cat is like a sidewalk because ice cream has no bones. No similarity.

/BC

[BabbageCliolog]

<proponent of the Deck of Many Things>

Stephen

Stephen,

Here's a thought experiment to show you how broken the Deck is.

You have a 9th level PC. Any PC you want. I'm the GM. You find a Deck of Many Things. How many cards do you draw?

/BC

[Stephen_E]

General comments.

I was judging the Campaign breakyness for a 9th lev party. That been the OP criteria/situation.

Re: Getting 50,000 xp: The primary source for leveling up is the PHB. It says no matter how much xp you get you can't gain more than one level. The Deck says you get 50,000 xp. It doesn't say "this ignores standard rules for gaining levels" therefore it follows said rules.

Definition of "Campaign breaking"" This could be quite extensive, but in short I mention a couple of "this is" and "this isn't".
Campaign breaking :- TPK; Eliminating enough of the party, without having a cohesive method of inserting new PCs, that the party cohesion is shattered; completely skewing the party power levels in a way that is both obvious and annoying/frustrating to the players. Commonly having level differences of 5 or more will do this.
Not Campaign breaking :- Eliminating a PC, unless the entire campaign is based around that PC; Having a PC fall back a level or two, or jump a level or two due to death/magical items ecetre; Someone getting 50% more wealth, or a more powerful magic item than other members (unless the item is hugely more powerful, and even then it tends to screw the receiving PC more than the party).

Drawing vast amounts of cards: If you get lucky and draw more Fates than Voids AND never draw Donjon (even if you use the Fate to avoid the Imprisonment, you still can't draw more cards) you can accrue enourmous power if the GM rules each card as a seperate encounter (a dubious rulling IMHO, but possible). In general I'd reccomend you follow the old 1st ed? rule that limits you to upto 3 cards. This restricts players from going for the "All or Nothing" approach, in an attempt to put the GM in the situation of giving them huge amounts of stuff or killing their characters.

Now specific responses to BC.



Stephen,

Here's a thought experiment to show you how broken the Deck is.

You have a 9th level PC. Any PC you want. I'm the GM. You find a Deck of Many Things. How many cards do you draw?

Two.

Note: I'll draw 7 rounds before Dawn just outside a enclosed light protected area, and have a Death Ward + other generic buffs cast on me before drawing.

Do you need a specific PC build?


Technically a cat is a dog because they're both mammals. That's not shuffling. Shuffling is not adding one card to a deck of 22 cards. Shuffling is moving all 22 cards around.

Neither dictionary definition I've read requires all the cards to be moved.
One required the order to be changed, the other required mix up by sliding them over each other. If you slide one card in amongst the others you a)changing the order, and b)mixing by sliding them over each other.

As I said, it is a very poor shuffle, but technically it is a shuffle. You're the person who went to a dictionary to defend your statements as not been hyperbole.


Quote:
Donjon has 2 settings. One is the imprisonment spell, with no save, but lets face it, the Imprisonemnt spell is around the "need to roll a 20" for anyone without a Strong Will save AND a decent Wis. So you're looking at the difference between a single spell cast by 17th level Wizard, and a 1/22 chance of drawing the card (and the Wizard can do a lot more than cast the one spell).


So, no save. No chance to reverse without finding a 17th level wizard to aid. Broken to me.

DnD is full of stuff with no saves. So clearly by your definition DnD is broken. Why do you play it? Indeed why are we having this discussion. At 9th level requiring the party to get access to a 9th lev spell is tough, but no where near impossible in any campaign that has Decks of Many Things around (high magic level)

Quote:The other is GM decides to imprison PC somewhere with the party having to track down and rescue him, and he trying to free himself.
Both of these are whatever CR the GM desires, but the 1st is limited to a max CR17.


Yeah, right. So, is the adventure over in a single game session? Or is the finding the imprisoned PC a long-campaign adventure? How many sessions will that take to finish the CR 17? 5? 10? Maybe 15? What's the player going to do in the meantime? That's a break.

The trapped PC can try and free himself. Basically it can be a campaign end for a single PC if the GM and Party declare it to be so. This isn't a Campaign break. Or are you one of those people who think PC death ends a campaign unless they're brought back to life?


I don't have my DMG so I was going off of the SRD. Does the Book of Vile Darkness allow no save for the bad stuff?

Some stuff you get a save, some you don't.


[QUOTE=BabbageCliolog;2759752]Every game I've played in where we got the Deck of Many Things the campaign broke pretty much when people started drawing cards. It's a breaker, IMHO. No misguide there.

And none of the campaigns I've been in broke with the finding of a Deck of Many Things. This suggests that the problem isn't inherent to the Deck, but to the GM and/or players, and how they react to the Deck.



I'm going to comment on the breaking ones IMO.


Quote:Balance - Change alignment. No break.

Breaks the Barbarian, Paladin and Bard PCs. Maybe a few others, like Cleric or Druid as well.

Do you consider Helm of opposite Alignment campaign breaking?
You have the option of RPing your alignment back, and Barbarians are only effected if they're Chaotic, and even then they only lose Rage. Bards are only affected if they're Chaotic, and simply can't advance until they change back. Clerics depend largely on the campaign handling of Clerics. Druids only if they're true neutral. Paladins will suck the big one, and have to either get a helm of opposite alignment or heaps of Alignment change RP + an easy atone in either case. Then again Paladins probably shouldn't be drawing from Decks of Many Things.


Quote:Donjon - Imprisonment - requires 9th lev spell to negate, or GM campaign hook. No break.


Break. See above.

See above my response.

Quote:Flames - Death feud with outsider. No break.


Could be a break because the GM might decide on a very powerful outsider that is beyond CR 9.

Aside from an Outsider of Party CR+3 been managable, walking into a store to buy some rations can be a campaign breaker because the DM MIGHT decide there just happens to be a Tarrasque hiding inside. Get real.:smallannoyed:

Quote:Skull - Defeat Dread Wraith CR11 or be destroyed. No break.


Break for a 9th level party. CR 11 is for 4 9th level PCs, not one. What is that equivalent for 1 9th level PC? And it could potentially get to be 4 dread wraiths for a party of 4 9th level PCs. Break, break, break!

This is where knowledge of what's possible comes in. When drawing from a Deck you should always have a Deathward on you, and a Ghost Touch weapon, or spells targeted for the job of Wraith killing. If your build really isn't up to taking on a Wraith then the best anti-wraith PC should be standing by. If Dread Wraith is drawn the anti-wraith type does one full round attack and then turns to deal with his own Dread Wraith, while you finish of the damaged/incapacitated wraith. Also drawing just before Dawn (i.e. 5-10 rounds) is a good idea.

CR 11 is in neutral setting. When prepped things like Dread Wraith drop in CR.
Simply immunity to their Con drain and ignoring their incorpreality miss chance is a big hit.

Quote:Talons - Lose all magical equipment. No break.


Break! A 9th level PC without magic items is not the same as a 9th level PC with magic items. CRs then go up.

Pfft. At 9th lev it's not that big a deal. It hurts, yes, but it's not a game breaker. It's not even a Character breaker. "Umm, guys I'm out of magical equipment". "Here have the parties spare low level magic weapon, and we'll head over to the shop and get you a good non-magical set of armour. What the hell, I just picked up a load of wealth. I'll buy you a new set of magical armour". Don't tell me you're one of those players who thinks it's all over whenever something bad happens.

Quote:The Void - Soul is trapped on Far Plane or World. 9th lev spell to reveal location. Ends campaign for one PC.


Break, see above.

So one player having to go back to character Gen is campaign breaking to you? Right..... that puts your opinions in a certain perspective.




Corrected. Quote:So SIX card are campaign enders.

Correction. So ZERO cards are campaign breaking, unless you only play "safe" DnD where nothing really goes wrong, no PC ever dies, or is at real risk of dying, and all challenges are overcome without serious risk.

I've played in such campaigns, and they can be fun, but they are limited, and yes, I don't expect things like Decks of Many Things to appear in them. I also don't define DnD feats/rules/equipment/spells by that style of campaign.





Yeah, a spiked chain is like a Deck of Many Things like a cat is like a sidewalk because ice cream has no bones. No similarity.

/BC

And The Soviet Union had no similarity to the US. They were both Super Powers, but hey, they were different in other ways so "no similarity".

Since you haven't addressed my point of why they were similiar I can only take it that you at least suspect my comparison is correct, and would rather sidestep by trying to ridicule without touching the actual point. Nice way to go.

Stephen

[BabbageCliolog]

General comments.

Meh. It's an artifact. AN ARTIFACT. That makes it a powerful magic item, well beyond any regular magic item, even if it is a minor artifact. It's a game breaker for a 9th level party IMO.

Artifacts should not be treated as simply *everyday* magic items. That's not high fantasy (like DnD *should* emulate).


Two.

Note: I'll draw 7 rounds before Dawn just outside a enclosed light protected area, and have a Death Ward + other generic buffs cast on me before drawing.

Do you need a specific PC build?

Do you have any in-character knowledge of the Deck? How would you know when/what to buff yourself with?

Oh, and you drew the gems and the Void. Game over.


Neither dictionary definition I've read requires all the cards to be moved.
One required the order to be changed, the other required mix up by sliding them over each other. If you slide one card in amongst the others you a)changing the order, and b)mixing by sliding them over each other.

As I said, it is a very poor shuffle, but technically it is a shuffle. You're the person who went to a dictionary to defend your statements as not been hyperbole.

Try doing that in a poker game. That's not even technically a shuffle. Adding one card to a deck does not a shuffle make.

A, B, C, D, E, F, G, H, I, J, K, L, M, N, O, P, Q, R, S, T, U, V

Draw A, then place it back in the deck.

B, C, D, E, F, G, H, I, J, K, A, L, M, N, O, P, Q, R, S, T, U, V

Order B-K remains the same. L-V are advanced by one, yet remain in the same order.

That's not a shuffle.


<snip stuff I've already explained and I'm too tired to argue>


This is where knowledge of what's possible comes in. When drawing from a Deck you should always have a Deathward on you, and a Ghost Touch weapon, or spells targeted for the job of Wraith killing.

How would any PC have this knowledge in-character, unless they really researched it? No mention of that, conveniently.


Correction. So ZERO cards are campaign breaking, unless you only play "safe" DnD where nothing really goes wrong, no PC ever dies, or is at real risk of dying, and all challenges are overcome without serious risk.

Not playing "safe" DnD. Playing EPIC DnD. 9th Level does not fit an Artifact. Much higher levels are required, in fact.


And The Soviet Union had no similarity to the US. They were both Super Powers, but hey, they were different in other ways so "no similarity".

Wrong comparison. The USSR and the US are in the same "scale" - both nations. The spiked chain is a easily available weapon while the DoMT is an ARTIFACT. In no way are they *remotely* similar, except that neither has bones. A better comparison would have been the US vs. a VW Jetta. Ones on an EPIC scale, the other is a common item.


Since you haven't addressed my point of why they were similiar I can only take it that you at least suspect my comparison is correct, and would rather sidestep by trying to ridicule without touching the actual point. Nice way to go.

I did touch the actual point. Your point was comparing apples to the SUN, and I pointed that out. A spiked chain is not an artifact. The DoMT is not a easily available weapon. In what way are they similar? Yep, neither is like a sidewalk.

Dude, I don't agree with you. I don't have to agree with you. You don't have to agree with me. Fine.

The DoMT is broken for a 9th level party IMO. That's what I've been saying all along. It will break a campaign. Actually, the DoMT is broken no matter what. It's a crap-trap magic item designed to play on the greed and stupidity of gamers. It's a Wand of Wonder in Artifact clothing, without any of the charm. It's a Gary Gygax dungeon type of magic item "Door #1 has a pile of 500 Billion GP! Door #2 has an angry Ancient Red Dragon! And Door #3 has a talking goat!" I wouldn't use it. I wouldn't want it. And if I was in a game with it, I'd seriously point out to the GM that it's a campaign breaker.

/BC

[Aquillion]

Augury will just say "Weal and Woe". If you draw, some cool stuff happens, and the deck disappears. Or, some awful stuff happens, but at least that awful Deck is gone. Finally, the DM can just say that artifacts are beyond mortal magic to predict. The outcome is truly random. (chaos theory anyone? If you drew when you cast the spell, it would have been good. You didn't. You were casting the spell. So, when you drew, you drew the Void.)
Actually, if you read the text for Augury:


Weal (if the action will probably bring good results).
Woe (for bad results).
Weal and woe (for both).
Nothing (for actions that don’t have especially good or bad results).Augury, per RAW, predicts probabilities, not actual events. A Deck of Many Things will always "probably" bring good effects (something like, what, nine times out of eleven or something?) So you will always get Weal, without exception.

Sure, the Woe can be so horrible that it would scare many players off, but Augury doesn't measure degrees of horribleness, just whether something will probably bring good results or not... a 70% chance of finding a single copper coin vs a 30% chance of dying in painful agony as all your items are irrevocably destroyed and your levels permanently drained to one would augury as "Weal".

[Kurald Galain]

Augury should definitely be capable of other answers, like "reply hazy, try again.".

[Stephen_E]

Do you have any in-character knowledge of the Deck? How would you know when/what to buff yourself with?

Oh, and you drew the gems and the Void. Game over.


No. PC gone, and back to Char Gen, with the party somewhat wealthier. Game's still fine. Character death happens <shrug>.







How would any PC have this knowledge in-character, unless they really researched it? No mention of that, conveniently.


I've mentioned previously that the Deck of Many Things begs to be in Bardic tales. Bardic Knowledge should be able to get you the details if they bouncing around enough for a 9th lev party to get one.



Not playing "safe" DnD. Playing EPIC DnD. 9th Level does not fit an Artifact. Much higher levels are required, in fact.


That's your opinion. I can't see any analyse that back up that opinion. Minor Artifacts are viable from around 9th level up. Remember that minor artifacts aren't even unique. There can easily be dozens of each of them wandering around the world.





Dude, I don't agree with you. I don't have to agree with you. You don't have to agree with me. Fine.

The DoMT is broken for a 9th level party IMO. That's what I've been saying all along. It will break a campaign. Actually, the DoMT is broken no matter what. It's a crap-trap magic item designed to play on the greed and stupidity of gamers. It's a Wand of Wonder in Artifact clothing, without any of the charm. It's a Gary Gygax dungeon type of magic item "Door #1 has a pile of 500 Billion GP! Door #2 has an angry Ancient Red Dragon! And Door #3 has a talking goat!" I wouldn't use it. I wouldn't want it. And if I was in a game with it, I'd seriously point out to the GM that it's a campaign breaker.

/BC

No you don't have to agree with me, but thank you for making my point.

To other posters:-
The strong dislike for Deck of Many Things is largely based on emotional issues that people have with it. It doesn't match their view of what DnD should be/how it should be played.

If your DM tosses a Deck your way decide how you feel about the concept. If it offends you, don't draw. It's not like it counts as your magical loot for the level, as it has no market value. But if you don't draw don't go rabid at the other players if they do. They're entitled to play for their enjoyment as well, and if they're happy with how the Deck works, that's fine for them.

The other thing to keep in mind is that you're RPing a character. How would your character feel about it. All adventurers are risk-takers to some degree, but is your PC the sort that maintains she controls their envioriment and doesn't see themselves as actually taking risks. In that case you probably shouldn't draw unless you do something to give the illusion that you're fiddling the results (i.e. Augury ecetre). If your PC is the inveterate gambler type then he probaly should be drawing even if you don't like the concept personally, that's why it's called "roleplaying".

Stephen

[DisgruntledFrog]

I'm planning on using a Deck of Many Things in an upcoming encounter in my game but am a little worried about how much damage it may/will do. So I'd appreciate some opinions if people are willing to give them!

Basically, the PCs will come across a Dusk Hag fortuneteller who will offer to tell their fortunes. Of course, the tarot cards used will be the deck of many things. The offer will be a 1, 3 or 5 card draw only and unlike how the deck normally operates I'm planning on working effects of the deck into the game over the next month or so game time. The PCs will essentially be warned that the good/bad will be coming and I'll work the specifics of it into the game some how rather than pile it all on at once.

Other background that might help;
- The players have 3 characters each in the town they are based in. They can change to another character at anytime.
- All PCs are level 10.
- All powerful magic items and large amounts of wealth are kept in a central repository for use by any PC.

Given the above, do you think the deck used in this way can/will cause much irreparable harm?

[CASTLEMIKE]

That sounds pretty cool if the PCs are forewarned a little and not railroaded because some people hate the deck and it seems like they always draw bad cards. Much as you might like it the PCs might hate it particularly losing a PC that has a lot of time invested in it.

Give them a reason to see the hag. Maybe it's a slightly variant deck slightly tweaking the results. The Hag is a Half Fiend or Half Celestial (+0 Soul Locked Divine Oracle) with the Divine Prophet feat bound to the Deck like a Dryad to her tree and has a little control over the deck say 60/40 pull out some of the worst cards and best cards and substitue some others. She can give a card to any one who kills her.

A local noble drew a bad card for whatever reason like the hostile outsider who will kill him on the next full moon unless someone who draws at least a single card defeats him. This gives the PCs some choice in using the artifact.

A bad draw can kill a character or ruin a campaign if it is totally random.

I would suggest that the PCs in the party get a little forewarning and learn that the fortune teller has an uncanny knack for predicting major future events good and bad.

Some kind of Wild Fate Spinning Divine Oracle maybe even with the Divine Prophet feat would certainly gives the PCs a head's up. Some people and rumors say she causes great misfortunes on some to balance out the great fortunes she bestows on others.

I would not require any or all of the characters to draw.

[DisgruntledFrog]

@CASTLEMIKE: There will be no pressure on the PCs to have their fortune's told and there will be ominous warnings given about her power, the fact that the fortunes always come true and that there is real risk involved. I don't want to give away the fact that the deck will be involved, although a couple of my players will probably guess. I think you're right that I should tone it down a little. I may remove a few of the bad results that are tricky to work in to my game.

The fortune-teller is one of a caravan of miscellaneous outsider and fey "gypsies" cursed to wander the Demon Wastes (it's an Eberron campaign). The caravan will be spotted by scouts from their town (they are re-settling Desolate) and the PCs given the option of investigating (they will, they bite very easily). The fortunetelling is purely an optional side note to add flavour and depth (and fun), the real purpose of the caravan is something else entirely.

[BabbageCliolog]

That's your opinion. I can't see any analyse that back up that opinion.

That's because you've ignored my points, just like I've ignored yours. We're either going to be blood enemies or best friends. :smallamused:


Minor Artifacts are viable from around 9th level up. Remember that minor artifacts aren't even unique. There can easily be dozens of each of them wandering around the world.

In a Monty Haul game, artifacts are available at 9th level. What's next? You kill Cthulhu with a +5 Holy Avenger, then storm Asgard?

Monty Haul aside, why shouldn't even minor artifacts be unique? Isn't that inherent in the definition of an artifact? That they are unique? That not every Tom, **** or Harry 20th Level Wizard can make one? That they are Epic in scale, only for the top notch heroes?

Oh, wait. Maybe it's one of those "Pieces of the True Cross" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/True_Cross) sort of artifacts. Everyone's got one, even the barkeep and the peasant down the lane.


No you don't have to agree with me, but thank you for making my point.
To other posters:-
The strong dislike for Deck of Many Things is largely based on emotional issues that people have with it. It doesn't match their view of what DnD should be/how it should be played.

Actually, I didn't make your point. Not one bit.

Firstly, your statement that dislike of DoMT is based upon "emotional issues" is a bald assertion. You assume that it's based on emotion but that couldn't be farther from the truth, which leads to . . .

Secondly, I didn't make your point because I base my opinion not on emotion but on nearly 30 years of gaming experience - not just DnD, but many, many other game systems as well. I could list my curriculum vitae for gaming but I fear it would be too long. My experience, as a player and a GM, are why I dislike it. In no way is emotion involved. The DoMT is broken. I can easily point out dozens of other situations/powers/skills/whatever in dozens of other game systems that are equally broken. I don't use those broken bits in my games when I run them and I certainly point out they're broken when I am a player. Not to be pedantic, but I'd like to make another point . . .

Thirdly, your blatant attempt to paint an emotional response as "bad" or "wrong" is obvious. This isn't math or science, where evidence are needed to support our positions. Opinions about gaming *can* be emotional, because we tie it to pleasure (an emotion), fun/joy (another emotion) and use it as a means of recreation and stress release. If this was a science debate, then I could understand (and support) your point on "emotional issues" being "bad" and "wrong," but this isn't one of those cases. It's a game, that we do for fun, an emotional rush we get. Hence, an emotional response is equally valid as any other response.

And finally, how DnD is played is up to the players, emotional, experienced, and all.


If your DM tosses a Deck your way

I note that you failed to even touch upon the spiked chain and the DoMT. You compared them to the USSR vs. the US, when they aren't even on the same scale. Is the DoMT a common weapon? Is the spiked chain an artifact?


The other thing to keep in mind is that you're RPing a character.

Yeah, thanks, but I'm actually quite familiar with the concept.

/BC

[Stephen_E]

I'm planning on using a Deck of Many Things in an upcoming encounter in my game but am a little worried about how much damage it may/will do. So I'd appreciate some opinions if people are willing to give them!

Basically, the PCs will come across a Dusk Hag fortuneteller who will offer to tell their fortunes. Of course, the tarot cards used will be the deck of many things. The offer will be a 1, 3 or 5 card draw only and unlike how the deck normally operates I'm planning on working effects of the deck into the game over the next month or so game time. The PCs will essentially be warned that the good/bad will be coming and I'll work the specifics of it into the game some how rather than pile it all on at once.

Other background that might help;
- The players have 3 characters each in the town they are based in. They can change to another character at anytime.
- All PCs are level 10.
- All powerful magic items and large amounts of wealth are kept in a central repository for use by any PC.

Given the above, do you think the deck used in this way can/will cause much irreparable harm?

Drop "The Void". Everything else can be worked into the game in the way you talk about. Gaining the 1d4 Wishes and changing alignment can be dealt with via a Ring of 3 wishes and a Helm of Opposite Alignment.

Stephen

[Awetugiw]

"It appears our good friend has suddenly turned evil!"
"Well, fortunately, we always have this helm of opposite alignment with us. You hold him, I'll put it on him."

In most situations I can come up with a good/evil alignment change will take a character out as certainly as death itself. Law/Chaos might work.

[Shhalahr Windrider]

In a Monty Haul game, artifacts are available at 9th level. What's next? You kill Cthulhu with a +5 Holy Avenger, then storm Asgard?
There's a difference between being Viable and being Available.


Monty Haul aside, why shouldn't even minor artifacts be unique? Isn't that inherent in the definition of an artifact? That they are unique?
No. The working definition of artifact is that it is an item whose secrets of creation have been lost. That no one can create them. This definition does not imply uniqueness. In fact, the entire designation of "Minor" versus "Major" artifacts is based upon the fact the Minor Artifacts (http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/35/sovelior_sage/magicItemsICA.html#minor-artifacts) are not necessarily unique, but Major Artifacts (http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/35/sovelior_sage/magicItemsICA.html#major-artifacts) are.


That not every Tom, **** or Harry 20th Level Wizard can make one?
Doesn't mean the one Tom that could didn't make 10 of 'em before the secret to their creation was lost forever.


That they are Epic in scale, only for the top notch heroes?
And you've never read any epic story that featured a group of heroes utilizing different copies of the same artifact? I'd think the Dragonlances (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dragonlance_%28weapon%29#Dragonlance) would count here. For something more general—maybe even the bulk of Tolkien's rings of power. (I've only read the Lord of the Rings, nothing that would give me any idea as to the level of sameness between the rings given to the various races, so I could be wrong. Correct me if I am.)


Oh, wait. Maybe it's one of those "Pieces of the True Cross" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/True_Cross) sort of artifacts. Everyone's got one, even the barkeep and the peasant down the lane.
There's a pretty wide spectrum of availability between "Not Unique" and "Insanely Common." I trust one should find a more useful place in that spectrum for your epic items.