3.5 Sorcerer Spellcasting

[Devigor]

So, I noticed something about the sorcerer in the system reference document... "These new spells can be common spells chosen from the sorcerer/wizard spell list, or they can be unusual spells that the sorcerer has gained some understanding of by study. The sorcerer can’t use this method of spell acquisition to learn spells at a faster rate, however." This is also in my 3.5 PHB.

I do not find it unreasonable if sticking to an all-core (+srd material), but with splatbooks, anyone willing to dive into pages and pages of spell blocks can whip up something out of hand. They can't learn spells earlier than normally allowed on the class list, but for spells not on the class list, they can learn them at the lowest level.

I am creating a sorcerer in a generally core-only (PHB, MM, DMG) game. Reasonable feats from other books are allowed if I run them past my DM. She said I can do whatever I like, so long as it doesn't ruin the game for the other players.

Now... She is very good at preparing encounters to give non-casters and casters even footing. Wizards are all NPC's, clerics have to follow deity rules, druids have their abilities (even wild shape) restricted to outdoors in a chosen terrain type, and sorcerers are mostly untouched.

My questions here are:
• Would it be reasonable to allow my sorcerer to learn cleric/druid spells? Why or why not?
• If answering yes or no, what lore restrictions and self-handicaps would be a quarter of a trade-off for such a massive power spike (I mean, Divine Power, Divine Favor, and Divine Might are individually powerful, then put together for the full trinity is ridiculous)? I say "quarter of a trade-off" because nothing really beats having Miracle available at high levels...
• What spells from lists that aren't full-casters, or that get unique low-level spells (assassin, bard, etc.) would you suggest my sorcerer learn?

[DrMotives]

From the 3.5 PHB:

These new spells can be common spells chosen from
the sorcerer/wizard spell list (page 192), or they can be unusual
spells that the sorcerer has gained some understanding of by study.
For example, a sorcerer with a scroll or spellbook detailing an
unusual sorcerer/wizard spell (one not on the sorcerer/wizard spell
list in this book) could select that spell as one of his new spells for
attaining a new level, provided that it is of the right spell level.

The second sentence makes it clear that getting non-sorc or wiz spells wasn't the idea, this is just about getting non-core spells. Getting spells from other casters' lists isn't supported when you read the whole paragraph. That being said, requiring sorcerers to have written text of non-core spells was probably made by the same designer who insisted they have delayed access to higher level spells than clerics, wizards, & druids do. It's a needless worry that sorcerers are too powerful, which just hasn't held up. But that line isn't a bonus to sorcerers, it's a nerf.

You can get use the Arcane Disciple feat to add a whole cleric domain to your spell list though, that's explicitly RAW legal & by intended purposes. If this was something a sorcerer could already do without a feat though, the feat description would probably talk about prepared arcane casters only, which is does not.

[Troacctid]

I generally read this clause as "Sorcerers can use the spell research rules just like anyone else."

[Devigor]

Ah, I see. A valuable and relevant reply, but it still didn't quite answer my question. I assume it is a "no" to the first one.

As for spell research, the DM said that they aren't allowed for two reasons. The first is that it needlessly complicates things for her. Similarly, the second is that there are already so many different spells, there's little point in trying to duplicate/recreate/innovate anything further to do with spells.

[TheBrassDuke]

From the 3.5 PHB:


The second sentence makes it clear that getting non-sorc or wiz spells wasn't the idea, this is just about getting non-core spells. Getting spells from other casters' lists isn't supported when you read the whole paragraph. That being said, requiring sorcerers to have written text of non-core spells was probably made by the same designer who insisted they have delayed access to higher level spells than clerics, wizards, & druids do. It's a needless worry that sorcerers are too powerful, which just hasn't held up. But that line isn't a bonus to sorcerers, it's a nerf.

You can get use the Arcane Disciple feat to add a whole cleric domain to your spell list though, that's explicitly RAW legal & by intended purposes. If this was something a sorcerer could already do without a feat though, the feat description would probably talk about prepared arcane casters only, which is does not.

I had my own questions a while back. In the end it's DM's call, and in 3.0 sorcerers could learn spells from other class lists. Go for it, but tread even with your DM.



"(snip) ...If you go through the Core (3.5 PHB) spellcasters, they all have essentially the same [statement] for the first sentence under their spellcasting section; it swaps out a few words (Arcane/Divine, class name, spell list), and there's some conditionals for the two classes that don't have spell casting from level 1), but it's essentially the same sentence:

Bard: "A bard casts arcane spells, which are drawn from the bard spell list."

Cleric: "A cleric casts divine spells, which are drawn from the cleric spell list. "

Druid: "A druid casts divine spells, which are drawn from the druid spell list. "

Wizard: "A wizard casts arcane spells which are drawn from the sorcerer/ wizard spell list. "

Paladin: "Beginning at 4th level, a paladin gains the ability to cast a small number of divine spells, which are drawn from the paladin spell list"

Ranger: "Beginning at 4th level, a ranger gains the ability to cast a small number of divine spells, which are drawn from the ranger spell list."

The Sorcerer, though, has extra conditionals: "A sorcerer casts arcane spells which are drawn primarily from the sorcerer/wizard spell list. " (Emphasisadded).

Of the core base casters, the Sorcerer is the only one who, right on the first sentence of the spellcasting segment, uses a conditional modifier that implies exceptions. A little later, it even adds (none of the other Core casters get an analog to the second half of this sentence): "These new spells can be common spells chosen from the sorcerer/wizard spell list, or they can be unusual spells that the sorcerer has gained some understanding of by study."

If you pick up the PHB, go to the magic overview, and start pulling out where it specifies how characters learn spells, there's also an interesting exception. For the Wizard, it's level up, copying from scrolls/spellbooks, or independent research (pointing to the DMG). For Divine spells, it's level up or independent research (pointing to the DMG). For Sorcerers and Bards, though, independent research isn't listed - new spells are learned on level up only, and it adds the sentence "With the DM's permission, sorcerers and bards can also select the spells they gain from new and unusual spells that they have gained some understanding of (see Spells in the sorcerer description, page 54)." It then follows it up with an example, that lists "or he might have learned an unusual spell from an arcane scroll or spellbook." (both quotes from the 3.5 PHB, page 179).

For everyone except the Sorcerer, their Spells section has them casting from the class list. With the Sorcerer, it's "primarily" from the class list. For learning new spells, for the Wizard and all Divine classes, it's the automatic spells from level up, spell research (pointing to the DMG), or (in the case of the Wizard) copied spells. For the Sorcerer and Bard, spell research is not listed, but it is noted that they can get other spells.

That's not what most people expect to see, though, so when it's seen, it's usually assumed that the "Primarily" in the Sorcerer spell section refers to spell research (despite the fact that no other Core base class uses that word, but they can all do spell research, and spell research isn't listed as an option under the methods for gaining spells for the Sorcerer in the Magic section). There's no listed mechanics for it, but the Core Sorcerer isn't restricted to the Sor/Wiz list, and does not need to use spell research to get outside of it."


It's a case where the RAW explicitly calls out "ask your DM if you want to go outside this bound."

Essentially, yes, the DM has to make the call. But the RAW are saying "this isn't rule zero." They're agreeing that the DM should consider it. Whether a given sorcerer can learn a given spell is a house rule in the sense that it will be up to the DM and thus will vary from house to house, but it's not a "house rule" in the sense that it's leaning on rule zero to "fix" or "change" something in the RAW. It's one of the few areas where D&D 3e actually leaned in the "rules light" direction of DM judgment calls.

From a PO standpoint, it means that DMs are encouraged to consider both RP plotlines ("My sorcerer's spent a lot of time with these druids; can he learn that goodberry spell they're using all the time?") and one of the supposedly-intended (but not well-supported in fluff) uses of the sorcerer chassis: theme casters. That is, I'm given to understand that sorcerers were at some point intended to be the go-to class for building "ice mages" and "fire mages" and "shapeshifters" and "enchantresses." Yes, "Enchanter" is a wizard specialization, but the "casts entirely within theme, without necessarily regard to school" class was to be the sorcerer. In that light, a sorcerer with a particular theme might be expected to draw from other lists to keep that theme. A "storm mage" sorcerer might pick up call lightning; a "fire mage" might like flame strike; an "earth mage" might pick up earthquake. A "friend to his summons" summoner might pick the planar ally line rather than the planar binding line.


From a TO standpoint, it means that our RAW-based discussions can still include some theorizing centered around whether a sorcerer is building towards and within a theme that is appropriate to allow a given spell. It gives us, as theoreticians, a little more leeway to say "it seems reasonable that a DM might allow..." rather than having to say "that's pure house rule territory." If nothing else, it makes it arguably legal in Iron Chef and Zinc Saucier competitions to cherry pick appropriate spells for the theme being built towards without having an automatic red flag called on an illegal spell choice. (i.e. points might be docked - and heavily - for an abuse of this permission, but if it "feels right" to the judge he doesn't have to dock points for technically cheating.)


From a further PO standpoint, when giving build advice, it is a hook on which we can hang a hat for suggesting, "ask your DM if your sorcerer can take XYZ spell, because it seems perfect for what you're going for with this theme and the RAW do say sorcerers can learn unusual spells and that their spells are only drawn 'primarily' from the sor/wiz list."

Original post here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?423413-Sorcerers-learning-non-Sor-Wiz-Spells)

[Devigor]

That was exactly what I was thinking was the answer to the first question. Thank you. Any ideas on which spells, then, that could be RP'd as the character not knowing he was casting a spell? So far, RP-wise, magic of others "fizzles" around him (improved counterspelling and versatile spellcaster), and he doesn't realize he uses magic. He thinks that when he roars at someone to stay still (hold person), that they do it because he speaks with authority, not because he cast a spell.

[MisterKaws]

I'm pretty sure that sentence is there because Sorcerers get quite a bit of exclusive spells, I'd allow it as long as the party does not suffer from it, and Dragonblood Spell-pact from Dragons of Faerun is made specifically for trading spells, and gives no mention about being only between sorcerers.

[Chronos]

If a player wanted one or two specific spells from some other list, I might allow it on a case-by-case basis, but the default answer is going to be no. There's a reason they didn't just slap "sorcerer" on the level list of every spell ever.

[Âmesang]

This topic is certainly relevant to my interests since my longest-running character's a sorceress.

I can certainly see the argument for having sorcerers learn spells from other classes' spell lists based solely on flavor — the idea that they have a closer relationship to magic than any other class because it's a natural part of their very being, and who knows where they get such power from: Dragons? Elementals? Aberrations? Outsiders? So if you're aiming on building the class towards a theme-base, it can work in that regard.

Then again, when I played, I tried to keep things simple (at least since my group didn't take things too seriously), so the vast majority of spells my sorceress knows were drawn from the core sorcerer/wizard spell list with a few upgrades; greater mage armor, (Rary's) interplanar telepathic bond, and a permanent superior resistance for her and her familiar.

Then again again, one of my character's goals is to track down "Slerotin's Manifesto" (or at least a copy), a thousand-year-old journal kept by the last Mage of Power of the Suel Imperium, a journal that contains within it a unique spell crafted by the Mage himself, Slerotin's fortitude.

…a spell that was written up only in 2nd Edition. So, I'd say that certainly counts as an "unusual spell," no? In-game it's a little known spell from an ancient document that's rarely seen the light of day since the fall of a great empire generations ago; out-of-game it's a spell that's from a completely different edition, let alone source book (although it was extraordinarily easy to update, and comes with the likewise little-used dual school labeling seen once again in the Player's Handbook II and Dragon Magic).

I'm actually not sure where I'm going with this anymore. Kind of felt like a weird tangent drawn from my own (limited) experience playing a sorcerer. I guess what I'm trying to say is that I'd probably lean more towards "unusual spells" being sorcerer/wizard spells from non-Core sources, especially spells crafted by individual mages of generations/editions past. After all, Mordenkainen, a wizard, can easily research a brand-new spell, and if Bigby, another wizard, wants to learn it, he need only borrow Mordy's spellbook and copy it into his own spellbook.

Not quite so easy for sorcerers since, as far as I could tell, magic is supposed to be native/natural/intuitive to them. They don't really learn how to wield magic, per se, they just do it; but the mechanics of their spellcasting isn't all that different from wizards, and since they're free to use scrolls it shouldn't be out-of-the-ordinary for them to study a spellbook source and, through Spellcraft, understand the makings of the new spell written down.

So I can still see the argument for having sorcerers learn spells from other class lists; really, it's just taking my previous statement one step beyond (especially if said sorcerer is trained in Use Magic Device and can study other classes' scrolls — why isn't UMD a sorcerer class skill?!), but I prefer to take the simpler, unusual sorcerer/wizard spell route just to keep things, well… simple. :smalltongue:

[Talionis]

There is also an alternate class feature for sorcerers to be able to add a domain spell to there list, most of the spells you mentioned are in the War Domain.

With everyone else, I would default NO! But I'd listen and might allow it if it were especially flavorful and helped to create parity in characters power level.

The lists are there and different for a reason. If you were to allow a Sorcerer to add Cleric spells by research, I'd strongly consider making the fourth level cleric spell Divine Power a Fifth or Sixth level Sorcerer spell. Thus the Sorcerer can get it just later than the cleric.

[LTwerewolf]

There is also an alternate class feature for sorcerers to be able to add a domain spell to there list, most of the spells you mentioned are in the War Domain.

With everyone else, I would default NO! But I'd listen and might allow it if it were especially flavorful and helped to create parity in characters power level.

The lists are there and different for a reason. If you were to allow a Sorcerer to add Cleric spells by research, I'd strongly consider making the fourth level cleric spell Divine Power a Fifth or Sixth level Sorcerer spell. Thus the Sorcerer can get it just later than the cleric.

Sorcerer already would get it a level later.

[Beheld]

If a Sorcerer is casting a spell from a better chasis and better spell system like the Cleric or Druid list, then for that round and that slot, he's kind of a loser. Since he already gets everything a level late, and is therefore already kind of a loser, and he spontaneously casts from one spell of his highest level on the levels he has the same spells as everyone else, and is kind of a loser... Whatever, just let the Sorcerer learn a spell off any 9th level list and it won't even matter.

[Telonius]

I'll go against the grain and say, "Yes," to this one generally. As long as the Sorcerer isn't trying to break the game, I'd allow it. It gives some much-needed differentiation from the Wizard. My personal description of the two classes, is that the Wizard studies magic, but the Sorcerer is magic. Casting the spell is something innate to the character. Maybe they awakened some arcane healing spell (like Bards and some Dragons have); I don't see any reason why they wouldn't be able to.

Especially yes if it happens to fit within a character's theme. Ignatius Flameheart the Fire Sorcerer wants to learn Flame Strike or Fire Seeds? Absolutely. As long as it's not a lower level than something already on the Sorcerer list (Fire Trap for instance), go nuts.

[Âmesang]

I always like that "is magic," line… and that reminded me that some dragons can cast cleric/domain spells as sorcerer spells, so there is an in-game precedent for it.

If dragons have a whole class spell list to pick and choose from, why not other sorcerers (even if only to a lesser degree)?

(Though I wouldn't necessarily allow other sorcerers to blatantly pick-and-choose; perhaps just have them track down a friendly dragon and request an arcane cleric/domain scroll they could study in exchange for some quest.)

[TheBrassDuke]

If a player wanted one or two specific spells from some other list, I might allow it on a case-by-case basis, but the default answer is going to be no. There's a reason they didn't just slap "sorcerer" on the level list of every spell ever.

Although, again, sorcerers were able to cast spells from any other spell lists back in 3.0; the wording is carried over, not elaborated on, etc.

It's really a fun consideration, though.

[ericgrau]

From the 3.5 PHB:


The second sentence makes it clear that getting non-sorc or wiz spells wasn't the idea, this is just about getting non-core spells. Getting spells from other casters' lists isn't supported when you read the whole paragraph. That being said, requiring sorcerers to have written text of non-core spells was probably made by the same designer who insisted they have delayed access to higher level spells than clerics, wizards, & druids do. It's a needless worry that sorcerers are too powerful, which just hasn't held up. But that line isn't a bonus to sorcerers, it's a nerf.
I think this applied to other casters too. PHB spells are the "normal" spells, and the other ones are exotic and found by adventuring. This and any difficulty accessing prestige classes has melted away as optimizers have made a habit to freely pick and choose and many DMs have made a habit of going along with it.

Freely picking and choosing has opened up the fun of more options but it also removes the fun of discovery. Or ditto for finding, proving yourself to and joining an organization in the case of PrCs.

I agree with the other poster that based on the context "other" means other sor/wiz spells, as in outside the PHB spell list. Likewise there is a section in the SRD called "spell lists". It's more likely that any attempt to give them access to other lists is a house rule, though like any house rule it might be interesting.

[Jack_Simth]

I see I've got a quote. Even got my screen name spelled correctly this time! Doesn't usually happen without a copy/paste, and that tends to keep the capitalization.


That was exactly what I was thinking was the answer to the first question. Thank you. Any ideas on which spells, then, that could be RP'd as the character not knowing he was casting a spell? So far, RP-wise, magic of others "fizzles" around him (improved counterspelling and versatile spellcaster), and he doesn't realize he uses magic. He thinks that when he roars at someone to stay still (hold person), that they do it because he speaks with authority, not because he cast a spell.
Many of the enchantments could be fluffed that way. Charm person? He's just being smooth and likeable. Suggestion? Why of course people follow reasonable advice (even when I'm tricking them)! Rage? Obviously my taunts are just that effective!

Anything that doesn't have an obvious physical impact, really. See Invisibility, detect magic, and arcane sight might just be that he knows how to squint right to see things.


I'm pretty sure that sentence is there because Sorcerers get quite a bit of exclusive spellsThey do now, they didn't then. You've got essentially the same write-up in the 3.0 PHB... which was before any of the 3.0 splatbooks, and well before things like Races of the Dragon.

There is also an alternate class feature for sorcerers to be able to add a domain spell to there list, most of the spells you mentioned are in the War Domain.Now, sure. At PHB printing? Not so much.

It's more likely that any attempt to give them access to other lists is a house rule, though like any house rule it might be interesting.
Less of a house-rule and more filling a hole in the rules. It's fairly clear that there should be something there, but no specifics are clearly listed. Kinda like how in Simulacrum it leaves it open ended to what abilities are appropriate to a creature of reduced hit dice ("the appropriate hit points, feats, skill ranks, and special abilities for a creature of that level or HD") and thus, it's perfectly RAW for the DM to say that a simulacrum of that Efreeti can't grant Wishes because it only has 5 HD, and that particular special ability isn't appropriate for a creature of that HD (it's also not really particularly appropriate for a creature with 10 HD, but that's a different matter...). Some fill the hole with "Use the spell research rules". Some fill the hole with "Pick non-core spells" (not that all the other classes spellcasting classes -which lack the clause - don't do that anyway). A lot fill it with 'nobody noticed it and everyone went with sor/wiz stuff for the sorcerer anyway'. Some fill it with 'Huh, never noticed that; yeah, sure, pick up Cure Light Wounds from the Bard list if you want it'. None of those answers are wrong. It's a hole. What's supposed to be there, isn't. It needs filling any time it's noticed and relevant at a gaming table. But there's no 'pure raw' answer for what goes in the hole.

[Devigor]

Hmm... Seems like, due to the opposed answers, the big "DM call" is the real one for the first question, and non-copout at that. Good. :3 That's how I prefer it, keeps things relevant on a game-by-game basis.

Thanks for the suggestions on spells. :) That was my line of thought, just difficult to RP the best spells that way. Glitterdust? No real way. Fly? Ehhh... Call Lightning is one I wanted, and it's fairly simple. Mad? Lightning bolts smite his enemies, and he's like, "wow I'm lucky".

[Troacctid]

Well, instead of Call Lightning, you could take Storm Bolt as a feat and get your lightning at will as a supernatural ability.

Edit:

Although, again, sorcerers were able to cast spells from any other spell lists back in 3.0; the wording is carried over, not elaborated on, etc.

It's really a fun consideration, though.

Where are you getting this? I just checked the 3.0 PHB and this is the text:


Spells: A sorcerer casts arcane spells, the same type of spells available to wizards. A sorcerer’s selection of spells is extremely limited. Your sorcerer begins play knowing four 0-level spells (also called cantrips) and two 1st-level spells of your choice. At each level, the sorcerer gains one or more new spells, as indicated on Table 3–17: Sorcerer Spells Known. (Note: The number of spells a sorcerer knows is not affected by his Charisma bonus, if any; the numbers on Table 3–17 are fixed.) These spells can be common spells chosen from the sorcerer and wizard spell list (page 168), or they can be unusual spells that the sorcerer has gained some understanding of by study. For example, a sorcerer with a scroll or spellbook detailing an unusual sorcerer/wizard spell (one not on the wizard/sorcerer spell list in this book) could select that spell as one of his new spells for achieving a new level, provided the spell is the right level. In any case, the sorcerer can’t learn spells at a faster rate due to this means.

I don't see anything there about spells from other lists--in fact, it seems even more clearly restricted to the Sorcerer/Wizard list than the 3.5 version.

[ericgrau]

Less of a house-rule and more filling a hole in the rules. It's fairly clear that there should be something there, but no specifics are clearly listed. Kinda like how in Simulacrum it leaves it open ended to what abilities are appropriate to a creature of reduced hit dice ("the appropriate hit points, feats, skill ranks, and special abilities for a creature of that level or HD") and thus, it's perfectly RAW for the DM to say that a simulacrum of that Efreeti can't grant Wishes because it only has 5 HD, and that particular special ability isn't appropriate for a creature of that HD (it's also not really particularly appropriate for a creature with 10 HD, but that's a different matter...). Some fill the hole with "Use the spell research rules". Some fill the hole with "Pick non-core spells" (not that all the other classes spellcasting classes -which lack the clause - don't do that anyway). A lot fill it with 'nobody noticed it and everyone went with sor/wiz stuff for the sorcerer anyway'. Some fill it with 'Huh, never noticed that; yeah, sure, pick up Cure Light Wounds from the Bard list if you want it'. None of those answers are wrong. It's a hole. What's supposed to be there, isn't. It needs filling any time it's noticed and relevant at a gaming table. But there's no 'pure raw' answer for what goes in the hole.
It's right here:
"These new spells can be common spells chosen from
the sorcerer/wizard spell list (page 192)...

For example, a sorcerer with a scroll or spellbook detailing an unusual sorcerer/wizard spell (one not on the wizard/sorcerer spell list in this book)"

Rather than getting a spell from the core/PHB sor/wiz spell list, the sorcerer can get other spells, meaning other sor/wiz spells not other spells in general from other class lists. Saying that it's your "interpretation" that spells besides the PHB sor/wiz spell list must mean all other caster lists is the big stretch that isn't intended at all. It's an understandable mistake, especially when using the SRD instead of the PHB, but once you look at it more closely it's pretty clear that it means "other than the core/PHB sor/wiz spells" so to extend that to "all spells period" is a bit of an abuse of the word "other". Especially when it gives an example of a non-core sor/wiz spell.

[Hiro Quester]

On what spells to learn, there are a few spells in the Bard list that will be well worth researching.

Sirine's Grace (Bard 4): +4 enhancement to Dex and CHA, and add your CHA bonus as a deflection bonus to AC (plus a swim speed and free movement underwater). Take advantage of your sizable charisma bonus.

Improvisation (Bard 1): get 2xCL luck points, to spend (up to 1/2 CL each) improving a skill checks, attack rolls or ability checks.

[Jack_Simth]

It's right here:
"These new spells can be common spells chosen from
the sorcerer/wizard spell list (page 192)...

For example, a sorcerer with a scroll or spellbook detailing an unusual sorcerer/wizard spell (one not on the wizard/sorcerer spell list in this book)"

Rather than getting a spell from the core/PHB sor/wiz spell list, the sorcerer can get other spells, meaning other sor/wiz spells not other spells in general from other class lists. Saying that it's your "interpretation" that spells besides the PHB sor/wiz spell list must mean all other caster lists is the big stretch that isn't intended at all. It's an understandable mistake, especially when using the SRD instead of the PHB, but once you look at it more closely it's pretty clear that it means "other than the core/PHB sor/wiz spells" so to extend that to "all spells period" is a bit of an abuse of the word "other". Especially when it gives an example of a non-core sor/wiz spell.
The other casters lack that clause. The Bard is not listed as one of the classes that can do spell research. Does this mean that a Bard is strictly restricted to PHB spells withouth house-rules from the DM? Is spell research or finding an NPC who knows the spells in question the only way for a Cleric to get spells outside the PHB (without house rules otherwise from the DM)? Answers of "yes" to those questions are implied by your choice of argument.

[Troacctid]

The other casters lack that clause. The Bard is not listed as one of the classes that can do spell research.

Uh, yes it is. DMG 198.


A spellcaster of any kind can create a new spell.

It's even specifically called out.


The number of spells that sorcerers and bards can know is strictly limited; members of those classes can never exceed these limits even through the research of original spells.

[Jack_Simth]

Uh, yes it is. DMG 198.



It's even specifically called out.
Ah, sorry. They just can't learn the spells they research, as they only get them at level up. My bad. Still. The argument use also implies that a Wizard needs to find a wizard that has the non-core spell to get it, or spend spell level * 1,000 gp and weeks of research, to get it. Can't take it on level up. Ditto for a Cleric, Druid, Paladin, Ranger, et cetera. They don't even get the slight exception of "primarily".

[Anthrowhale]

This does not settle the debate for sorcerers, but if a player is looking for something like a "sorcerer that can also cast cleric spells", the generic spellcaster (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/genericClasses.htm#spellcaster) explicitly allows that.

[ZamielVanWeber]

This does not settle the debate for sorcerers, but if a player is looking for something like a "sorcerer that can also cast cleric spells", the generic spellcaster (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/genericClasses.htm#spellcaster) explicitly allows that.

But generic classes are not meant to be mixed with non-generic classes so it would only work in a fairly specific game.

[Anthrowhale]

But generic classes are not meant to be mixed with non-generic classes so it would only work in a fairly specific game.

Similarly, people often consider using the prestige Paladin even though most games use the Paladin class.

Generic Spellcaster = Sorcerer - familiar - spell/level of top two levels + feat at L1/L5/L10/L15/L20 + better skills + access to some nonmagical class abilities as feats + access to cleric and druid lists.

Given the lack of ACFs, Spellcaster and Sorcerer end up being pretty similar in terms of design flexibility.

[Devigor]

DM said that I can pick from any class list, following the "storm magic" theme, otherwise only sorcerer.

I did in fact pick up the Storm Bolt feat and have heighten spell + electric jolt. Higher level spells known will eventually include Wind Wall, Control Winds, Control Weather, etc.

It looks like the vote is split both ways on the legality.