To Feat or not to Feat (Paladin)

[Oramac]

So I'm starting a game on Tuesday playing a Worgen Paladin (my own homebrew race, loosely based on Warcraft race), and I'm thinking ahead about how I want to build it.

We're using a 33 point buy with stats:

Str: 16 + 2 (racial)
Dex: 10
Con: 13
Int: 8
Wis: 10
Cha: 16 + 1 (racial)

I know I'm going Oath of Vengeance with a Greatsword, but I'm debating whether or not to take Great Weapon Master or the extra ASI. If I take the ASI I'll be able to get Str, Con, and Cha all up to 20, but if I take the feat, Con will only get to an 18.

Just how important is it to have GWM versus the extra +1 to the Con save? Any thoughts/advice are welcome!

[RulesJD]

So I'm starting a game on Tuesday playing a Worgen Paladin (my own homebrew race, loosely based on Warcraft race), and I'm thinking ahead about how I want to build it.

We're using a 33 point buy with stats:

Str: 16 + 2 (racial)
Dex: 10
Con: 13
Int: 8
Wis: 10
Cha: 16 + 1 (racial)

I know I'm going Oath of Vengeance with a Greatsword, but I'm debating whether or not to take Great Weapon Master or the extra ASI. If I take the ASI I'll be able to get Str, Con, and Cha all up to 20, but if I take the feat, Con will only get to an 18.

Just how important is it to have GWM versus the extra +1 to the Con save? Any thoughts/advice are welcome!

First, drop Cha to 15 +1 and get Con to 15 (drop Dex -1 as well). Then, as your first feat, take Resiliency (Con) to make it an even 16. Never want odd numbers in ability scores unless you plan on taking a feat that has +1 to that ability or its a dump stat.

You actually want Resiliency (Con) first so you can maintain concentration on your buff spells (Bless and Haste). After that, take GWM. 18 STR + Bless running is more than enough to have GWM almost always hit, especially with the advantage from OoV. After those two feats (assuming your game goes long enough) bump Charisma for the boost to saves after level 6.

[Foxhound438]

you end up losing out on 20 hp if you take the feat, and 1 in con saves. Neither are particularly bad, since fot the former you have an extra 100 hp on lay on hands to use (likely won't need it most of the time anyways) and in con saves you have aura of prot, meaning you still have a +9, aka even a nat 1 doesn't lose a spell on less than 21 damage taken (saves and checks don't auto fail on nat 1 by RAW). Compare that to the extra 20 dpr on your 2 swings plus an entire attack if you get the bonus action swing, and GWM looks pretty good for you.

[Oramac]

Thanks guys! I'd originally planned the first ASI to get a +1 Con/Cha and bump those to 14/18, respectively. But it seems that may not be as important as I previously thought. And I like the idea of having proficiency in Con saves too.

Thanks again!

[djreynolds]

I'm not sold on resilient con. I understand its implications, but that early in a build it is +2 or +3, and there are plenty of concentration checks that you will fail, almost no matter what you do. Whereas at 6th level you will add charisma to all rolls. So, IMO, humbly, heavy armor master at 4th and throw that is con. Save resilient con till later.

So take heavy armor master, its better early on than later. Or strength or charisma. +5 to hit at 4th level is really big

[RulesJD]

I'm not sold on resilient con. I understand its implications, but that early in a build it is +2 or +3, and there are plenty of concentration checks that you will fail, almost no matter what you do. Whereas at 6th level you will add charisma to all rolls. So, IMO, humbly, heavy armor master at 4th and throw that is con. Save resilient con till later.

So take heavy armor master, its better early on than later. Or strength or charisma. +5 to hit at 4th level is really big

Yeah, that makes 0 sense. At level 6, you should be autosucceeding on concentration saves with Resiliency (Con). That alone is worth the feat, much less the fact that there are a ton of nasty effects that key off of Con. HAM is a broken feat at level 1, decent up to 5, and largely useless beyond that.

Paladin = nigh requirement of Res (Con) because you'll be concentrating on spells in heavy melee combat.

[djreynolds]

Yeah, that makes 0 sense. At level 6, you should be autosucceeding on concentration saves with Resiliency (Con). That alone is worth the feat, much less the fact that there are a ton of nasty effects that key off of Con. HAM is a broken feat at level 1, decent up to 5, and largely useless beyond that.

Paladin = nigh requirement of Res (Con) because you'll be concentrating on spells in heavy melee combat.

I think you can wait on resilient con, max out strength first. I'm not saying not to get resilient con, but at 4th, I'd max out my attack stat. Then max out charisma. And then grab GWM or shield master. He can wait till level 14 to get resilient con.

Concentration checks are 10 or half the damage as the DC, which ever is higher. HAM could make that roll possibly 1.5 less in damage if you think about it.

[BiPolar]

What level are you starting at? I'm confused when you talk about Getting your main stats up to 20 unless you're just theorizing a level 20 build. A lot of what you're asking has some dependence on what level you begin.

[Oramac]

What level are you starting at?

We're starting at level 1, but the DM has already said he plans to fast-track us up to about level 10 before we really "start" the actual campaign.

[BiPolar]

We're starting at level 1, but the DM has already said he plans to fast-track us up to about level 10 before we really "start" the actual campaign.

Gotcha, Here's what I'd recommend (I'm currently playing a human variant vengeance paladin in one game):

Starting Stat Block:
Str: 16 + 2 (racial)
Dex: 9
Con: 14
Int: 8
Wis: 9
Cha: 17 + 1 (racial)

You're definitely going to be failing Dex/Wis saves left and right, but that's okay given the big boost you've got in your attacks and spellcasting.

GWM isn't as great as you think. I almost never use the -5/+10 anymore (currently level 8), but I do use the bonus action extra attack on crits/kills. However, that also means that if I'm running Hunters Mark (which is much better than -5/+10, in my opinion...at least for multiple baddies) then I have to calculate if I'm going o kill someone (don't move the mark) or if I'm not (going ot move the mark) so that I don't preclude the ability to get an extra attack as the GWM feat will eat up your bonus action. Also means you can't prep a spell smite (which I also rarely use, spell slots too precious and the effects aren't interesting until you get Wraithful (2nd level spell) or Blinding (3rd level.)

You also need to say how you end up playing. Are you casting Bless a lot and needing to maintain concentration? Then consider Resilient. Are you more of a pure front line fighter and need to hit more? Take the ASI and get 20 STR.

See how your character progresses and how you like to play him :)

[Oramac]

[Truncated]

See how your character progresses and how you like to play him :)

Good point.

The only thing is, we're using a 33 point buy, but can't buy higher than a 16 to begin. Other than that, I think waiting to see how it plays is a good idea.

I do know one of the other characters is going to be a Witch Hunter from the Vin Diesel D&D game. (can't post links yet, but just search "D&D witch hunter" and it's the first link that pops up)

[RulesJD]

Gotcha, Here's what I'd recommend (I'm currently playing a human variant vengeance paladin in one game):

Starting Stat Block:
Str: 16 + 2 (racial)
Dex: 9
Con: 14
Int: 8
Wis: 9
Cha: 17 + 1 (racial)

You're definitely going to be failing Dex/Wis saves left and right, but that's okay given the big boost you've got in your attacks and spellcasting.

GWM isn't as great as you think. I almost never use the -5/+10 anymore (currently level 8), but I do use the bonus action extra attack on crits/kills. However, that also means that if I'm running Hunters Mark (which is much better than -5/+10, in my opinion...at least for multiple baddies) then I have to calculate if I'm going o kill someone (don't move the mark) or if I'm not (going ot move the mark) so that I don't preclude the ability to get an extra attack as the GWM feat will eat up your bonus action. Also means you can't prep a spell smite (which I also rarely use, spell slots too precious and the effects aren't interesting until you get Wraithful (2nd level spell) or Blinding (3rd level.)

You also need to say how you end up playing. Are you casting Bless a lot and needing to maintain concentration? Then consider Resilient. Are you more of a pure front line fighter and need to hit more? Take the ASI and get 20 STR.

See how your character progresses and how you like to play him :)

Please, for the love of god, don't listen to this advice.

GWM + 16 str + Bless is more than enough to hit almost all enemies at level 10+ In order, these should be your priority, assuming Human Variant and 27 point buy (not whatever rolled stats he started with):

Str 15 + 1 Racial
Dex 8
Con 15 (Then +1 Res (Con))
Wis 8
Int 8
Cha 15 + 1 Racial

Level 1: Res (con)
Level 4: GWM
Level 8: Cha ASI boost

In combat, usually Bless first round until you get access to Haste. Haste is your ultimate goal because it gives you advantage on Dex saves which will be weak. Bless will make up for GWM loss and put you into ridiculous numbers for damage even before Smites.

Also, look into multiclassing. Paladins get a LOT from level dips into Sorc and/or Warlock. Personally I recommend at least 2 (ideally 3) levels of Warlock for short rest rechargable Bless/Cure Wounds/Hex, +5-7 temp HPs per kill, +Cha to EB for having a ranged option, and Devil's Sight for Darkness shenanigans when stuff goes south. I recommend 1 level of Sorc for Shield and Tides of Chaos/Wild Magic surges for when you want basically at-will advantage. Pick these three up whenever you want, but I did it on mine after level 6 Paladin and never regretted it. Makes you ridiculously survivable (Shield + Temp HP + at-will advantage for Concentration saves), huge damage with GWM + Bless + short rest smites, and ridiculous utility if you go 3 Warlock because you can pick up Guidance, Sacred Flame, Thorn Whip, et al. Throw in a bunch of Sorc cantrips and you're all set.

There really isn't a stronger build in D&D 5e in terms of excelling at pretty much everything. Paladins are typically gimped by their lack of recharging on a short rest and few spell slots. This solves both those problems and adds so much more. Once you get +cha to all saves and Bless up almost constantly, you're not going to fail many saves. Your Temp HP on kill will give you huge survivability. Being a Paladin makes your damage pretty ridiculous. And all those cantrips means you have a TON of utility between Minor Illusion, Guidance, Mending, Message, Mold Earth, etc.

*edit* Do NOT go past Paladin 11 by the way. Take more levels of Sorc (metamagic for Quickened Bless/Haste, Counterspell) and/or Warlock (rechargable level 3 smites/Fireball for dealing with hordes/eventually a Familiar with an extra invocation).

[BiPolar]

Good point.

The only thing is, we're using a 33 point buy, but can't buy higher than a 16 to begin. Other than that, I think waiting to see how it plays is a good idea.

I do know one of the other characters is going to be a Witch Hunter from the Vin Diesel D&D game. (can't post links yet, but just search "D&D witch hunter" and it's the first link that pops up)

Ah, I missed that, sorry! I'd keep the 16s, but still try and start Con at 14. Get the bonus for the concentration saves rather than a negligible boost at dex/wis/int saves.

Do you have a cleric that is willing to run Bless, or will you need to?

[BiPolar]

Please, for the love of god, don't listen to this advice.

GWM + 16 str + Bless is more than enough to hit almost all enemies at level 10+ In order, these should be your priority, assuming Human Variant and 27 point buy (not whatever rolled stats he started with):

Str 15 + 1 Racial
Dex 8
Con 15 (Then +1 Res (Con))
Wis 8
Int 8
Cha 15 + 1 Racial

Level 1: Res (con)
Level 4: GWM
Level 8: Cha ASI boost

In combat, usually Bless first round until you get access to Haste. Haste is your ultimate goal because it gives you advantage on Dex saves which will be weak. Bless will make up for GWM loss and put you into ridiculous numbers for damage even before Smites.

Also, look into multiclassing. Paladins get a LOT from level dips into Sorc and/or Warlock. Personally I recommend at least 2 (ideally 3) levels of Warlock for short rest rechargable Bless/Cure Wounds/Hex, +5-7 temp HPs per kill, +Cha to EB for having a ranged option, and Devil's Sight for Darkness shenanigans when stuff goes south. I recommend 1 level of Sorc for Shield and Tides of Chaos/Wild Magic surges for when you want basically at-will advantage. Pick these three up whenever you want, but I did it on mine after level 6 Paladin and never regretted it. Makes you ridiculously survivable (Shield + Temp HP + at-will advantage for Concentration saves), huge damage with GWM + Bless + short rest smites, and ridiculous utility if you go 3 Warlock because you can pick up Guidance, Sacred Flame, Thorn Whip, et al. Throw in a bunch of Sorc cantrips and you're all set.

There really isn't a stronger build in D&D 5e in terms of excelling at pretty much everything. Paladins are typically gimped by their lack of recharging on a short rest and few spell slots. This solves both those problems and adds so much more. Once you get +cha to all saves and Bless up almost constantly, you're not going to fail many saves. Your Temp HP on kill will give you huge survivability. Being a Paladin makes your damage pretty ridiculous. And all those cantrips means you have a TON of utility between Minor Illusion, Guidance, Mending, Message, Mold Earth, etc.

*edit* Do NOT go past Paladin 11 by the way. Take more levels of Sorc (metamagic for Quickened Bless/Haste, Counterspell) and/or Warlock (rechargable level 3 smites/Fireball for dealing with hordes/eventually a Familiar with an extra invocation).

Ouch, man. That hurts. The stat block I gave him was on HIS 33 point buy system.

Personally, I wouldn't dip. You need the paladin progression and any delays are going to hurt you as a paladin. Delays your auras, Haste (turns that into waiting until 10th+level), etc. The -5/+10 argument has been all over this board and it can go either way. Personally, I would just rather make a hit for 10 points less then risk a miss for 10 points. 10 points is a much bigger deal at lower levels and as you move up, I personally haven't been willing to accept the risk for an additional 10 points, when a miss (if I'm adding divine smites) is much more of a significant loss. BUt that's really going to be on a person-by-person risk analysis basis.

As for not progressing beyond 11, you'd be missing an ASI/Feat at 12, so you really need to go to 12 unless you want to waste another 3 very long levels to get to that point again. Cleansing touch to end a spell effect at 14 is also HUGE. Friend is Held? No problem, fixed. ANd 15 with a vengeance paladin gives you an additional attack via reaction tos omeone who is under your vow of enmity. If you're up against the Big Bad (which you should always be), and on haste, you'll have 4 attacks, all of which can get Smites (3 attacks with haste, 1 reaction attack).

And getting to 18 gives you a 30' aura of protection. With a likely +5 modifier, that's a huge boon to your companions without having to be in fireball formation.

But sure, adding a warlock dip gives you a lot, but you're also giving up a lot of what a pure pally gives you.

Neither are bad options, but to say "for the love of god, don't listen to this advice" i think is disingenuous at best.

[Oramac]

assuming Human Variant and 27 point buy

I appreciate the advice, but we're using a 33 point buy, and I'm playing a Worgen (homebrew race, posted in the homebrew section), not human variant.


Ah, I missed that, sorry! I'd keep the 16s, but still try and start Con at 14. Get the bonus for the concentration saves rather than a negligible boost at dex/wis/int saves.

Do you have a cleric that is willing to run Bless, or will you need to?

I honestly don't know if there'll be a Cleric or not. The only other character I'm sure of will be the Witch Hunter.

[BiPolar]

I appreciate the advice, but as I mentioned in the OP, we're using a 33 point buy, and I'm playing a Worgen (homebrew race, posted in the homebrew section), not human variant.



I honestly don't know if there'll be a Cleric or not. The only other character I'm sure of will be the Witch Hunter.

Then most likely, you'll be the bless king. That takes your concentration, limiting you to pretty much divine smites while you fight. There will definitely be opportunities not to cast bless and play with some other spells, but it sounds like the d4 Bless Buff is going to do the most help for your party.

EDIT: My character has a 15 Con and resilient. We use proficiency die rather than the set bonus. For me, that means I need to roll a 3 or higher to make a standard Concentration save (18 Cha, aura of protection). I'm okay with that and my 15 constitution. It's not an autosave, but it's damn close. But given that, I'd agree with leaving Cha at 15+1, and giving Con another point. That way at 4th level you can pick Resilient for +1 Con to 16 or ASI for +2 STR to 20 or +2 Cha to 18.

[Oramac]

But given that, I'd agree with leaving Cha at 15+1, and giving Con another point. That way at 4th level you can pick Resilient for +1 Con to 16 or ASI for +2 STR to 20 or +2 Cha to 18.

Yea that's basically what I'm thinking about doing at this point. The level 4 Resilient(con) gives me a +10 con save at level 10, not counting the Bless spell, so that's good. And I can still take GWM or an ASI and get Str/Cha up shortly after that.

[RulesJD]

I appreciate the advice, but we're using a 33 point buy, and I'm playing a Worgen (homebrew race, posted in the homebrew section), not human variant.



I honestly don't know if there'll be a Cleric or not. The only other character I'm sure of will be the Witch Hunter.

In that case just boost Wisdom/Dex to shore up whichever you prefer. I'd recommend Wisdom since Haste gives you advantage on Dex saves and because failing Wisdom saves is usually quite a bit nastier. Not sure what your homebrew race offers, but just delay each thing I recommended by 1 ASI point. Res (Con), GWM, Cha.

You can go Pala 12 for the ASI if you're that desperate for +1 ability change, but you'd get more out of a Sorc/Warlock dip. 3 levels in warlock = short rest Lesser Resto. 3 levels in Sorc = cast Lesser Resto from Paladin and do it as a bonus action with metamagic, leaving you to enjoy your 3 attacks/round with Haste up (that you also likely cast as a bonus action with metamagic.

Keep in mind, this all only matters as much if your DM keeps track of Concentration saves. If the DM doesn't seem to call you on them very much, you can probably bypass Res (Con).

[Oramac]

Keep in mind, this all only matters as much if your DM keeps track of Concentration saves. If the DM doesn't seem to call you on them very much, you can probably bypass Res (Con).

Also a good point. I won't know the answer to that until next week.

The race gives me a +2 Str and +1 Cha for stats. As for multiclassing, from an RP standpoint the character would be more likely to try and kill a lock than multiclass into it, so that's probably out, but the Sorcerer dip could be interesting.

[RulesJD]

Also a good point. I won't know the answer to that until next week.

The race gives me a +2 Str and +1 Cha for stats. As for multiclassing, from an RP standpoint the character would be more likely to try and kill a lock than multiclass into it, so that's probably out, but the Sorcerer dip could be interesting.

You could try playing the whole "to defeat my enemy I must become them" route, but if not, take levels in Sorc. I would hiiiighly recommend at least 1 level dip into Sorc right off the bat to get Tides of Chaos + Shield spell + cantrips. Shield spell alone is easily worth a one level delay for a Paladin and that's the easiest way to get it. Use Tides of Chaos as often as you can (the wild magic surges aren't that bad and most are pretty helpful) and have Shield trigger the surges. For your second Sorc spell I would recommend Chromatic Orb or Thunderwave just as a way of triggering the surges without getting hit.

I tend to flavor Wild Magic Sorc as being soooo devoted to your god/goals that you kind of go into a barbarian-esqe madness and channel your deity's divine spirit to such an extent that it can sometimes be a bit TOO devoted.

Keep in mind, that levels in Sorc are FULL CASTER levels, which means you get higher level spell slots quicker. Even if you don't have spells of that level you can use them to upcast or more likely to convert into metamagic/Smites.

[djreynolds]

I think me and MR RulesJD see eye to eye, except on resilient con. Which he says take now and I say take later.

But if you select as your fighting style GWS, then please take GWM. You have so many smites available to you in a day and BBGs need big hits, and GWM helps your other non-smite attacks kick butt. And this is why people stress resilient con early because bless in concentration. I prefer to find ways to get advantage, vows, wolf totem, etc.

If you select duelist style or protection, go shield master.

At level 1, you will have an 18 strength. I would make that 20 at level 4. Then at 8th, this is when I would take GWM, or flip flop the them. Then charisma at 12 and resilient con at 16. If you want resilient con at 1, human variant, take it. But with bounded accuracy, GWM coupled with forms of advantage is very good. So good, you may forget you have smites available and use spells for bless, or hunter's mark, or shield of faith (all which are concentration).

And if you can squeeze in war caster, that opportunity attack spell, such as hold person for OoV is very nice

[Corran]

And if you can squeeze in war caster, that opportunity attack spell, such as hold person for OoV is very nice
I am not sure about how good hold person is, if it is used as an OA via warcaster. The way I read the spell description, the target of the spell must fail 2 saving throws before you or any ally can benefit from the paralysis effect. Meaning that this spell should be reerved to be used with your action, especially if you play right after the enemy you are targeting with the spell. And they still will lose a turn if they fail the first saving throw (that they make when the spell is cast).

[djreynolds]

Choose a humanoid that you can see within range. The target must succeed on a Wisdom saving throw or be paralyzed for the duration. At the end of each of its turns, the target can make another Wisdom saving throw. On a success, the spell ends on the target.

I can definitely see your point, because he may get another roll before you go again on your turn. But for the time being he is held and that is nice.

But then again you are paladin and you could just smite him instead, but I do like loading the bases for friends.

[Corran]

So I'm starting a game on Tuesday playing a Worgen Paladin (my own homebrew race, loosely based on Warcraft race), and I'm thinking ahead about how I want to build it.

We're using a 33 point buy with stats:

Str: 16 + 2 (racial)
Dex: 10
Con: 13
Int: 8
Wis: 10
Cha: 16 + 1 (racial)

I know I'm going Oath of Vengeance with a Greatsword, but I'm debating whether or not to take Great Weapon Master or the extra ASI. If I take the ASI I'll be able to get Str, Con, and Cha all up to 20, but if I take the feat, Con will only get to an 18.

Just how important is it to have GWM versus the extra +1 to the Con save? Any thoughts/advice are welcome!
I am assuming you spent 3 points rasining str from 15 to 16, before applying the racial bonus. Same for charisma. Only this way I can see 33 points being spent. My advice, regarding how to spend your points (assuming you can achieve a 16 by spending a total of 9+3=12 points), and having in mind that the racial bonuses are +2 str / +1cha, is this: str 16+2=18, dex 9, con 15, int 8, wis 10, cha 15+1=16 (for a 12+1+9+0+2+9=33 points spent).

Since you are going OoV with greatsword, GWM is your best bet. You take GWM at 4th level. You can use it against high AC enemies that are under you vow of enmity, or against enemies with appropriate AC (there are guides on this). At 8th level you take resilient con. You want those con saves to be rocking at 9th level, when you get access to haste, your best friend!

[Corran]

I can definitely see your point, because he may get another roll before you go again on your turn. I read it like that he gets to roll 2 saves before anyone else gets to act on his turn. Meaning he gets one saving throw when you cast the spell (during his turn), and a second one at the end of his turn, so he will have rolled 2 saves by the time anyone else gets to act. A bit silly, but I guess the spell was just balanced this way, which makes it (if my reading is correct) a bad choice for an OA (as you double risk the best part of the spell - getting to have the enemy lose his turn will work the same way, whether you cast the spell as a reaction during the enemy's turn, or during your turn, but for the paralysis effect to be effective, that comes down to when you time the casting of the spell, making it the most efficient if you cast it right after that enemy has taken his turn, meaning that both you and all your allies will have a turn against a paralysed enemy, and making it the least effective if you cast it during the enemy's turn, as he will get 2 saves, one when you cast the spell, and one when his turn ends, that is 2 saves in the same turn, the enemy's turn).

[djreynolds]

I read it like that he gets to roll 2 saves before anyone else gets to act on his turn. Meaning he gets one saving throw when you cast the spell (during his turn), and a second one at the end of his turn, so he will have rolled 2 saves by the time anyone else gets to act. A bit silly, but I guess the spell was just balanced this way, which makes it (if my reading is correct) a bad choice for an OA (as you double risk the best part of the spell - getting to have the enemy lose his turn will work the same way, whether you cast the spell as a reaction during the enemy's turn, or during your turn, but for the paralysis effect to be effective, that comes down to when you time the casting of the spell, making it the most efficient if you cast it right after that enemy has taken his turn, meaning that both you and all your allies will have a turn against a paralysed enemy, and making it the least effective if you cast it during the enemy's turn, as he will get 2 saves, one when you cast the spell, and one when his turn ends, that is 2 saves in the same turn, the enemy's turn).

After the first failed save he is paralyzed and now his turn is over. Its like say I was going to attack a wizard, but crossed in front of the fighter and he killed me, I never get to make that attack. So once you fail your save, your turn is now over, and this held person must wait by the original initiative roll for his turn on the next round to reroll, and someone will get a nice target

[Spore]

According to this GWM is inferior to a Strength increase. They however calculate this under the circumstance that you always use the -5/+10 option. And they ignore scaling effects as well as changing enemy AC.

Based on simply damage output,
Pick Great Weapon Master

Assumptions before reaching 4th-level:

You hit 65% of the time (+6 bonus to Attack Rolls)
You are using a Greatsword (the best weapon to pick Great Weapon Fighting with)
Disregard critical hits
DPR is calculated as (%hit)(ave. weapon damage + str mod) or 65% x (8.33 + 4)

Currently, on a normal hit, you will do 8.0145 DPR, 10.82 DPR if made with Advantage (such as the effect of your Vow of Enmity).
If you pick Strength +2 at 4th-level,

Your attack bonus and damage rolls increase by 1, resulting to a DPR of 9.33 (70% x (8.33 + 5)), if with Advantage, 12.13.
If you pick Great Weapon Master,

Assuming you use the feat all the time, your attack bonus decreases by 5, and damage increases by 10, resulting in a DPR of 8.932 (40% x (8.33 + 4 + 10)). That's just slightly higher than what you started with.

However, when you have Advantage on the roll, your DPR increases to 14.29
TL;DR

On normal attacks, picking strength is slightly better than GWM. If made with Advantage, GWM is miles better.


Source: http://rpg.stackexchange.com/questions/65843/picking-attribute-boost-or-feats-as-high-stat-5e-paladin

[Corran]

After the first failed save he is paralyzed and now his turn is over. Its like say I was going to attack a wizard, but crossed in front of the fighter and he killed me, I never get to make that attack. So once you fail your save, your turn is now over, and this held person must wait by the original initiative roll for his turn on the next round to reroll, and someone will get a nice target
Hmmm, if this is the case, then cating hold person as a reaction via warcaster, during an enemy's turn, is actually one of the best ways to use this spell. Still though, I am not convinced about the enemy not getting 2 saves during that turn. Since a held creature still always gets a save at the end of its turns. And since the spell requires a save in the first place for the target to be paralyzed, I cannot see why he wouldnt get two saves in the situation we describe. I am not 100% sure though, I'll just quickly post a question in the RAW thread, and I will come back here with whatever answer I will get. This is interesting...

[djreynolds]

Hmmm, if this is the case, then cating hold person as a reaction via warcaster, during an enemy's turn, is actually one of the best ways to use this spell. Still though, I am not convinced about the enemy not getting 2 saves during that turn. Since a held creature still always gets a save at the end of its turns. And since the spell requires a save in the first place for the target to be paralyzed, I cannot see why he wouldnt get two saves in the situation we describe. I am not 100% sure though, I'll just quickly post a question in the RAW thread, and I will come back here with whatever answer I will get. This is interesting...

Thanks ahead of time, I often muck up rules and you guys fix them. For instance, I was the jerk using savage attacker on melee sneak attacks... even the DM thought it was legal. And I was wrong.

I'm guessing on AoO, your movement stops to finish the results of that AoO, and you can either move on, or if you were hit by a polearm master with sentinel, your movement is stopped. Now you can do something, but plan A is out.

[BiPolar]

I'm going to keep playing devil's advocate here. I've been playing a pure paladin and I love it. Yes, multiclassing does open up some very very sweet things, and you can always figure out a RP reason why to multiclass, but picking when you want to do it is going to be tough.

If you multiclass before level 4, you are delaying the GWM/Resilient/ASI choice. It also means you delay your extra attack at 5th level. That's HUGE. And 6th level is the start of your Aura of Protection - which is HUGE for you and a big help to your party if they're close (also means you're in fireball formation.)

Yes, you can add a lot more flavor and expanded abilities my multiclassing, but you are going to delay your bigger Paladin stuff. I multiclassed in another character (non-paladin), and have since come to regret the decision. I love the extra stuff I got, but it's delayed my progression for my main class and I wish I hadn't.

[Oramac]

According to this GWM is inferior to a Strength increase. They however calculate this under the circumstance that you always use the -5/+10 option. And they ignore scaling effects as well as changing enemy AC.

Based on simply damage output,
Pick Great Weapon Master

Assumptions before reaching 4th-level:

You hit 65% of the time (+6 bonus to Attack Rolls)
You are using a Greatsword (the best weapon to pick Great Weapon Fighting with)
Disregard critical hits
DPR is calculated as (%hit)(ave. weapon damage + str mod) or 65% x (8.33 + 4)

Currently, on a normal hit, you will do 8.0145 DPR, 10.82 DPR if made with Advantage (such as the effect of your Vow of Enmity).
If you pick Strength +2 at 4th-level,

Your attack bonus and damage rolls increase by 1, resulting to a DPR of 9.33 (70% x (8.33 + 5)), if with Advantage, 12.13.
If you pick Great Weapon Master,

Assuming you use the feat all the time, your attack bonus decreases by 5, and damage increases by 10, resulting in a DPR of 8.932 (40% x (8.33 + 4 + 10)). That's just slightly higher than what you started with.

However, when you have Advantage on the roll, your DPR increases to 14.29
TL;DR

On normal attacks, picking strength is slightly better than GWM. If made with Advantage, GWM is miles better.


Source: http://rpg.stackexchange.com/questions/65843/picking-attribute-boost-or-feats-as-high-stat-5e-paladin

Thanks for this! Looks like getting advantage is really important. I'll keep that in mind for sure!


I'm going to keep playing devil's advocate here. I've been playing a pure paladin and I love it. Yes, multiclassing does open up some very very sweet things, and you can always figure out a RP reason why to multiclass, but picking when you want to do it is going to be tough.

If you multiclass before level 4, you are delaying the GWM/Resilient/ASI choice. It also means you delay your extra attack at 5th level. That's HUGE. And 6th level is the start of your Aura of Protection - which is HUGE for you and a big help to your party if they're close (also means you're in fireball formation.)

Yes, you can add a lot more flavor and expanded abilities my multiclassing, but you are going to delay your bigger Paladin stuff. I multiclassed in another character (non-paladin), and have since come to regret the decision. I love the extra stuff I got, but it's delayed my progression for my main class and I wish I hadn't.

This was my original intent: to play a "pure" paladin with no multiclassing. It's still something I'm debating on, and may end up doing anyway. I'll see what happens when we get started.


Hmmm, if this is the case, then cating hold person as a reaction via warcaster, during an enemy's turn, is actually one of the best ways to use this spell. Still though, I am not convinced about the enemy not getting 2 saves during that turn. Since a held creature still always gets a save at the end of its turns. And since the spell requires a save in the first place for the target to be paralyzed, I cannot see why he wouldnt get two saves in the situation we describe. I am not 100% sure though, I'll just quickly post a question in the RAW thread, and I will come back here with whatever answer I will get. This is interesting...

Thanks for this! I fully intend to use the spell, but knowing when to use it is really important.

[RulesJD]

Thanks for this! Looks like getting advantage is really important. I'll keep that in mind for sure!



This was my original intent: to play a "pure" paladin with no multiclassing. It's still something I'm debating on, and may end up doing anyway. I'll see what happens when we get started.



Thanks for this! I fully intend to use the spell, but knowing when to use it is really important.

1. Those numbers assume a lot of things, like the base to-hit % and it doesn't include crits which favors GWM (automatic hit). So no, that calculation isn't that useful, ESPECIALLY when you factor in the extra 2.5 to hit for GWM with Bless running.

2. The only problem with Hold Person is that it competes with your Bless and then later Haste. It is a fantastic spell that if you can get a party mate to either be the Bless caster or the Hold Person caster, goes realllly well with an auto-critting GWM + Smiting Paladin.

[BiPolar]

1. Those numbers assume a lot of things, like the base to-hit % and it doesn't include crits which favors GWM (automatic hit). So no, that calculation isn't that useful, ESPECIALLY when you factor in the extra 2.5 to hit for GWM with Bless running.

2. The only problem with Hold Person is that it competes with your Bless and then later Haste. It is a fantastic spell that if you can get a party mate to either be the Bless caster or the Hold Person caster, goes realllly well with an auto-critting GWM + Smiting Paladin.

And after you use Hold Person once, don't expect your DM to give you too many more humanoids :)

[Spore]

And after you use Hold Person once, don't expect your DM to give you too many more humanoids :)

This is borderline impossible not to feel hamfisted after a while. The DM might however pressure the caster of said Hold Person enough to make it impossible for him to use an action on it. Or in the words of my healer: "If the group is dying from the get-go I simply cannot cast fancy spells."

[Corran]

Coming back here to share the answer I got from the RAW thread, regarding hold person cast as reaction and saving throws. If you cast hold person as a reaction against an enemy who provoked an AoO, due to warcaster, so you cast hold person during that enemy's turn, then if said enemy fails his saving throw and becomes paralyzed loses the rest of his turn, at the end of which he still gets to make a saving throw to see if he removes the condition. So casting hold person as your reaction, is arguably the worst option (since you maximize the chances that neither you or any of your allies will profit from attacking a paralyzed enemy.

[RulesJD]

Coming back here to share the answer I got from the RAW thread, regarding hold person cast as reaction and saving throws. If you cast hold person as a reaction against an enemy who provoked an AoO, due to warcaster, so you cast hold person during that enemy's turn, then if said enemy fails his saving throw and becomes paralyzed loses the rest of his turn, at the end of which he still gets to make a saving throw to see if he removes the condition. So casting hold person as your reaction, is arguably the worst option (since you maximize the chances that neither you or any of your allies will profit from attacking a paralyzed enemy.

The way to cheese....I mean circumvent this restriction is to Ready your action to cast Hold Person after the target ends their next turn.

[djreynolds]

Coming back here to share the answer I got from the RAW thread, regarding hold person cast as reaction and saving throws. If you cast hold person as a reaction against an enemy who provoked an AoO, due to warcaster, so you cast hold person during that enemy's turn, then if said enemy fails his saving throw and becomes paralyzed loses the rest of his turn, at the end of which he still gets to make a saving throw to see if he removes the condition. So casting hold person as your reaction, is arguably the worst option (since you maximize the chances that neither you or any of your allies will profit from attacking a paralyzed enemy.

So you're saying that his turn isn't over after the initial failed save, he still gets another chance because though paralyzed he's turn isn't over just yet.


Quote Originally Posted by Corran View Post

Q 221 Say an enemy provokes an AoO from me, and I cast hold person against that enemy as my AoO, via warcaster. If the enemy fails his save, he is paralyzed and loses the rest of his turn. My question is, does he get a second saving throw against the spell (assuming he failed his first save) during this same turn (ie his turn)?
A 221 Yes. It's an unfortunate quirk of "end of turn" durations and saves--the intent is to approximate a one-round duration, but it gets wacky when you can inflict a condition as a reaction.

Thank you for the homework on your part. Now where does this second save occur? Will any of my party members in range of him get to make an attack before he "re-rolls" at the end of his turn? Or is his save, right after his failure?

[Corran]

So you're saying that his turn isn't over after the initial failed save, he still gets another chance because though paralyzed he's turn isn't over just yet. Well, his turn is essentially over after he fails the first save and becomes paralyzed, but as his turn comes to an end (from becoming paralyzed), he gets to roll another save (right after his turn ended, or rather, at the end of his turn, as the spell specifies in its description, so that is before anyone else takes a turn) to see if he can remove the condition.





Thank you for the homework on your part. Now where does this second save occur? Will any of my party members in range of him get to make an attack before he "re-rolls" at the end of his turn? Or is his save, right after his failure?If you cast it as a reaction, which reaction takes place during the enemy's turn, then no one will get to play his turn before the enemy rolls 2 saves (he rolls the second save to remove paralysis if he failed the first).

[djreynolds]

So reading it now, my paladin is just wasting a smite and teasing my rogue who thinks he's about to auto-crit.

So unless this enemy is that dangerous, and is going to beat the save DC anyhow, I should look for a melee hit.

[Corran]

Unless it is crucial that you prevent this enemy who just provoked an attack of opportunity from you, from taking his turn (eg, he is about to move away from you to kill that unconscious ally of yours, or that innocent NPC who travels with you and will die if he gets hit, or the enemy is about move away so that he can press the ''destroy the world'' button, etc etc), I would say stiking with a melee attack with your reaction (possibly stacking a 2nd level smite, thus expending the same slot of a hold person for some extra damage) is the better choice for your AoO.

I am wondering if using the spell command as an AoO via warcaster would make the enemy lose this turn (ie the turn he takes while he provokes an AoO from you), or his next turn. If it is the former, then casting command with an AoO is a good alternative, again, if the enemy losing his current turn matters. (I think RAI is that the enemy loses his current turn, but RAW it is controversial - I'll just post a question about this as well).

As for hold person, given that you are a paladin (smites) and that you have a rogue ally, I would say that using it the way RulesJD suggested will bring much to your table. Generally make sure that the rogue plays before the enemy, after you have cast hold person (either this is the case due to initiative order, or can be aranged by readying actions - you or the rogue).

[Spore]

So reading it now, my paladin is just wasting a smite and teasing my rogue who thinks he's about to auto-crit.

So unless this enemy is that dangerous, and is going to beat the save DC anyhow, I should look for a melee hit.

Smites are for spike damage only. Only if your DM only provides 1-2 encounters per day (which is our typical modus operandi) you can see Smite as "sustained" damage instead of a damage spike.

Otherwise, the Smite spells are strictly superior.

[Oramac]

Wow! Lots of useful info coming in here. I appreciate the ideas and answers, everyone!

[djreynolds]

Unless it is crucial that you prevent this enemy who just provoked an attack of opportunity from you, from taking his turn (eg, he is about to move away from you to kill that unconscious ally of yours, or that innocent NPC who travels with you and will die if he gets hit, or the enemy is about move away so that he can press the ''destroy the world'' button, etc etc), I would say stiking with a melee attack with your reaction (possibly stacking a 2nd level smite, thus expending the same slot of a hold person for some extra damage) is the better choice for your AoO.

I am wondering if using the spell command as an AoO via warcaster would make the enemy lose this turn (ie the turn he takes while he provokes an AoO from you), or his next turn. If it is the former, then casting command with an AoO is a good alternative, again, if the enemy losing his current turn matters. (I think RAI is that the enemy loses his current turn, but RAW it is controversial - I'll just post a question about this as well).

As for hold person, given that you are a paladin (smites) and that you have a rogue ally, I would say that using it the way RulesJD suggested will bring much to your table. Generally make sure that the rogue plays before the enemy, after you have cast hold person (either this is the case due to initiative order, or can be aranged by readying actions - you or the rogue).

But this is the good stuff about this forum. A real discussion about a very tricky ruling, and even the guy on RAW thread said so, and to have a solid answer is always best. This is what the forum is for. I'll have to change up tactics a bit because I love hold person, but command may be an alternative.

Kudos on your homework.